Topic: Using a separate Midi Keyboard with a PSR sx 900

[geoff5798]

I have a Yamaha psr sx 900.
I have now also bought a midi keyboard it has MPE. It has a really soft expressive touch.
I got a midi cable over the weekend and connected it to my Yamaha . My aim was to get the benefit of the expressiveness of the midi keyboard and at the same time benefit from the Hundreds of different voices on my Yamaha.

Once connected up all I get is just a plain old Piano sound when I play on the midi keyboard, no matter what instrument voices I have set on the Yamaha . I could have Strings , Trumpet or drums what ever but all I get is a plain old piano sound.

I have looked in both the user and reference manuals, looked at channels and transmission receive etc but still get only a basic piano sound.

Am I being naive in expecting anything other than a basic piano sound ? , or is there a way where I can tweak things so that I can take advantage of some of the great voices that  come with the psr sx 900.

Thanks

Geoff

[mikf]

Geoff
You can use the midi keyboard as a straight substitute for your arranger keyboard.It will mean a more messy set up with wire connections and a double stand but it will give you exactly what you want - a better feel keybed and all the arranger features.  Properly set up it should access all the voices, accompaniment styles, splits etc  as if it was the arranger keyboard. I did this for years before I got my CVP, and suspect you have not done this properly and what you are getting is the piano voice from the midi keyboard passing thru the speakers rather than midi signals being sent by the midi keyboard and received. by the arranger. 
To do this you will need midi connectors, and set your midi keyboard to send midi out and your SX to receive midi in.
No point in trotting out all the detailed instructions in this post because you can get it in the relevant sections in your SX manual and SX reference manual. I don’t have an SX, so am not sure which page of the manual, but it’s easily found under midi connections. If you don’t have the manuals just google them and download electronically from Yamaha.
I found it best to mount the midi keyboard at playing height with the arranger above and the arranger tilted at an angle to see and access all the buttons easily. Like this  …..https://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/13-cp33.html
Mike

[pjd]

Hi Geoff --

You'll have to become acquainted with the SX900 Owner's and Reference Manuals -- no way around it. I recommend reading the chapter on "MIDI Settings" in the Reference Manual, page 120.

As to your specific observations, the keyboard parts (RIGHt1, RIGHT2, etc.) are regarded as separate tone generation channels than the MIDI IN/OUT ports. Thus, selecting a RIGHT1 voice does not (necessarily) select a SONG 1 voice through the MIDI IN/OUT. (I believe, by default, the MIDI IN/OUT will be assigned to SONG 1 to 16.)

You probably know that the SX900 does not directly support MPE. So, eventually, you'll need to choose and send the appropriate MIDI messages from the controller to the SX900. That means more reading and studying the MIDI implementation in the SX900 Data List PDF.

Stay encouraged, but please realize that it will be a steep learning curve. 

All the best -- pj

[mikf]

My understanding is that MPE should be backward compatible with midi instruments, so maybe the MPE/midi thing will not be a problem, and be completely transparent. At least, that’s what I would hope,  but I have no personal experience of using MPE, and even my grasp of midi is pretty shallow.
Mike

[pjd]

Backward compatibility -- yes and no. Quoting a Sound On Sound article:

"MPE repurposes MIDI channels as notes instead of instruments. This means you can only have a single instrument on each port or cable and the instrument is limited to a maximum of 16‑note polyphony (one note on each of the 16 channels). Each note can have its own pitch‑bend, mod wheel and other expression messages, meaning you can now emulate the single‑string pitch vibrato of a guitar or violin without having the vibrato applied across the whole instrument. It’s not restricted to emulating real acoustic instruments of course. The possibilities for expressive sounds of any kind are vast."

A lot depends on who and how the target instrument gets set up. It's a little bit of the Wild West, right now. I've tried at least two MPE controllers and a a few different targets (including SWAM software instruments). It takes patience to get everything right.

That's why I feel the best combination might be the MIDI 2.0 negotiated configuration and MPE, although MIDI 2.0 steals some of MPE's thunder.

I think Geoff will have fun, but it takes some experimentation and patience. I'd be surprised if it was "plug and play."

Best to everyone -- pj


That

[DerekA]

I think you will need to switch off mpe on the controller, and select a single channel to transmit on. Then in the sx midi setup page, on the receive tab, set that same midi channel to play R1. That should at least get it started.

Due to the sx not having 16 dsp units, I don't think you will be able to get mpe to work properly using the song channels.

[mikf]

I don’t think would limit it to R1. Once you use the mid keyboard controller I think it’s best to use it for everything. Otherwise you are playing on two different keyboards that have very different feel. Why not just use it all the time, both hands. If it’s an 88 key you have not only real feel, but full size.
Mike

[geoff5798]

Thanks Mike ,Derek , and PJ for your comments and advice. I have consulted  both manuals several times . I have tried adjusting the channels but still to no avail, still only getting basic piano sound. Has PJ said it certainly seems a steep learning curve. Have enclosed a jpeg of current default channel selections to see if this will help with a solution.

Thanks
Geoff

[DerekA]

You need to set the Transmit channel on the *controller* keyboard, and the Receive channel on the SX.

[pjd]

You need to set the Transmit channel on the *controller* keyboard, and the Receive channel on the SX.

I agree with Derek. It sounds like you are transmitting from the MIDI/MPE controller (which one is it?) to the SX900. So, the transmit channels(s) on the sending MIDI/MPE controller must match the receive channels on the SX900.

Here's the rub. If the controller is in MPE mode, it will send each note on a different MIDI channel. Yep, that means it will use all 16 incoming MIDI channels on the MIDI IN port. That's the way MPE works.

Derek suggested turning off MPE mode in the controller, i.e., turn it into a standard, single channel controller. That's probably a better way to get started than full-up MPE.

Then you face the problem of selecting the voice on the SX900. You may need to send MIDI bank select and program change messages to select the desired voice. These messages would be sent from the controller to the SX900.

Since MPE sends to all 16 channels, you will need the same voice on all 16 channels. The selected voice may or may not respond reasonably to any or all MIDI continuous controller messages for slide, glide, etc. That's why most MPE controller companies (Roli, Osmose, Keith McMillen) provide an MPE-capable software synth which has been pre-programmed with MPE-responsive voices.

Oh, you're into the thick of it now!  But, stay encouraged -- pj

[geoff5798]

My MPE /Midi keyboard is a Roli Seaboard Rise 2. Have just had it a few months now and starting to get to grips with it. I normally use it via my iMac with the rather excellent software Roli have provided . Equator 2 and Roli Studio. When using it connected to my Yamaha the only way to make adjustments is via the midi screens on psr not via the Roli. I cannot therefore adjust the transmit channel on the controller itself nor can I see a way to do it on the Yamaha. On the transmit tab there is no drop down dialog where you can select "controller"
I have downloaded the PSR data list. Using google I have looked up all the abbreviations that were in the data list and Yamaha midi window and understand what they are now. After having a play around with settings and channels still only get a basic piano sound. Not giving up just yet .

Geoff

[DerekA]

Can you post a picture showing what's on the "Receive" tab of the SX MIDI setup page.

[geoff5798]

Thanks Derek . In between my last post I think I have got the solution now. On my Roli Dashboard I selected single channel only. The midi keyboard has a internal battery. I then unplugged it from the computer and connected in to the Yamaha. On the Yamaha on the receive tab I selected keyboard for ch 1 to 4 . It works I can get 4 different voices. Really pleased about that. Does nort seem to recognise chords but I will look at that later tomorrow.

Geoff

[mikf]

That Roli keyboard is something pretty different. I am not sure how well that will work with an arranger. I think we all assumed you had bought a standard controller keyboard. I think you are out in a different world there.
Mike

[pjd]

My MPE /Midi keyboard is a Roli Seaboard Rise 2.

Hi Geoff --

This is very helpful to know! I have a Roli Lumi Keys -- not in the same class, but it uses Roli Dashboard, too.

So, I blew the dust off the Lumi and updated its firmware. A side benefit of helping out... 

I took a quick look through the Roli Dashboard documentation. Once you feel comfortable with single channel mode, maybe multi-channel mode is the next step. The documentation describes multi-channel mode in the following way: "In Multi Channel, the Seaboard transmits data over multiple channels of MIDI. This setting makes it compatible with non-MPE multi-timbral synths."

So, ultimately, this might be the appropriate Roli mode for the SX900. Trying to get the SX900 to do full MPE may be a stretch too far...

Good luck! I will be curious to hear how things go. Might try to connect my Lumi to Genos some day. Unfortunately, there are so many other projects to complete first. 

-- pj

[pjd]

A few helpful hints here (maybe):

https://support.roli.com/support/solutions/articles/36000024587-setting-a-channel-range-in-roli-dashboard
https://rolisupport.freshdesk.com/support/solutions/articles/36000024514-kontakt-rise-grand

I'm trying to find an example of multi-channel mode...

-- pj

[geoff5798]

Thanks for tips and links PJ. Just for now I'm happy that it does at least work with the Yamaha. As the psr is not mpe enabled, playing it via the Roli Seaboard does not yet sound better but it certainly feels better with the silicon keys under my fingers.
For people who have never used a Seaboard Rise they are extremely Tactile. Its a bit like a cheese cake hard base and soft squishy top. The base is solid metal, the playing surface and keys is very soft silicon.  Its a real sensory experience playing it . You need short finger nails you need to stroke and gently massage the keys and wobble if you want vibrato. It has five dimensions of touch. I tend to use the Roli studio more at the moment rather than the Equator 2 as I have only just started learning about Synthesizers. I am starting to experiment making different sounds. The Roli excels at making vast sweeping cinematic sounds. With skilled musicians individual instruments sounds can be emulated very well. A good example check out Jason Turk: Seaboard Sundays on You Tube who plays traditional Irish Music. Learning these new skills is certainly keeping me busy .
Geoff