Author Topic: Sync tempo Genos vs DAW  (Read 873 times)

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Sync tempo Genos vs DAW
« on: July 19, 2020, 04:12:02 AM »
I use Cakewalk Bandlad to produce music
I combine the sound of Genos and VSTi. Specifically, I will record Genos' style accompaniment and use instruments from VSTi to further harmonize
There is a problem with tempo as follows:
I setup Cakkewalk project tempo is 92, style on Genos 92 too.
When starting both run at the same time, but at the end it seems Genos always runs faster, so the MIDI sound from VSTi runs slower and deviates from the Genos Style.
Does anyone know how to set up to fix this phenomenon?
Thanks!!!
 
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Re: Sync tempo Genos vs DAW
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2020, 05:08:49 AM »
You need to sync the clocks. One had to be the master clock and the other slaves and locks to the master.
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Offline ckobu

Re: Sync tempo Genos vs DAW
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2020, 08:41:18 AM »
That's right, KeyboardByBiggs is right for syncing. You can see the setting in Cakewalk at this point (4.19) of the video.

https://youtu.be/vjqUzC4DqnI?t=259
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Offline svpworld

Re: Sync tempo Genos vs DAW
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2020, 09:08:59 AM »
I always set my Genos to external clock (go to the MIDI settings, under the System tab change 'Clock' to to either MIDI A, B or USB 1, 2 depending on which connection you have Genos midi'd up to your computer. You might also have to change some settings in Cakewalk so that it outputs midi clock on the same MIDI port.  I use Logic Pro X so not sure of the settings in Cakewalk, but that's the basic principle. Once you do this however, when you press the song or style start button on Genos, nothing will happen until it receives a clock from Cakewalk.

Simon
 

Offline Bachus

Re: Sync tempo Genos vs DAW
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2020, 02:04:13 PM »
The current version of cakewalk is notorious for having problems with realtime actions..
There is allways a delay between cakewalk and other synced gear.

Its probably a latency issue, cakewalk is causing it.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2020, 02:05:14 PM by Bachus »
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Re: Sync tempo Genos vs DAW
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2020, 08:06:10 PM »
I use Cubase 10.5 Pro and when I record the drum lines from the Genos, I arm a MIDI track to record, use Sync Start, play through the whole song, and save it.

If I am a little late or early, the whole drum track will be out by the same amount. To fix that, select the entire drumline and nudge it forward or backward by the amount of the error or use the Quantize function. As Bachus noted, if you're DAW is so late that the drum track is way out of sync, consider investing in a better DAW. Remember, even if you started the Genos drums a half-beat late, it doesn't matter. You just need to nudge all the notes forward by one-half beat.

Extra tip
After you record the Genos drums in stereo, dissolve the track into all its different pitches - each representing a different drum instrument. From there, you can substitute some of the Genos drum instruments with a better VST instrument. For example, the kick drums on the Genos are loud and "boxy." The Groove Agent kick drums in Cubase are full and punchy. Kick drums should be felt and not heard. You can also control the drum mix FAR better than on the Genos.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2020, 08:15:00 PM by Lee Batchelor »
 

Re: Sync tempo Genos vs DAW
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2020, 08:35:25 PM »
Yamaha arrangers do NOT sync properly to external clock.

All DSPs related to tempo (i.e. TEMPO Delay, and many others) ignore the midi clock and stick with the style tempo you manually dial in (which is fixed and does NOT follow incoming midi clock). So your delays will be (almost) always out of tempo, which is normally dictated by the DAW.

We asked Yamaha long ago to fix the problem, but we never got an answer (as usual, user support is NOT existent).

Yamaha synths do not have this problem (We checked starting with the 20 years old Motif ES, which works perfectly). All DSPs always sync to incoming midi clock. But they have other problems as well.....

Sadly the arrangers firmware is a relict of another era. They never bothered to fix and modernize.

Anyway this is a bug, because in their data list they claim to support external midi clock sync. You might also ask for a refund or price reduction, because the public specification is contractually binding.

But the average Yamaha arrangers buyer has never used a DAW, so it is unlikely he has discovered or cares about this bug.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2020, 08:55:08 PM by groovyband.live »
 

Re: Sync tempo Genos vs DAW
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2020, 08:51:54 PM »
Yamaha arrangers do NOT sync properly to external clock.

All DSPs related to tempo (i.e. TEMPO Delay, and many others) ignore the midi clock and stick with the style tempo you manually dial in (which is fixed and does NOT follow incoming midi clock). So your delays will be (almost) always out of tempo, which is normally dictated by the DAW.

We asked Yamaha long ago to fix the problem, but we never got an answer (as usual, user support is NOT existent).

Yamaha synths do not have this problem (We checked starting with the 20 years old Motif ES, which works perfectly). All DSPs always sync to incoming midi clock. But they have other problems as well.....

Sadly the arrangers firmware is a relict of another era. They never bothered to fix and modernize.

Anyway this is a bug, because in their data list they claim to support external midi clock sync. You might also ask for a refund or price reduction, because the public specification is contractually binding.
When I record anything from the Genos to Cubase, I always go in and turn off ALL bells and whistles in the Genos. I don't use any of their delays, reverbs, filters, or compressors. Compared to those tools found in even the cheapest DAWs, the Genos isn't even housebroken. Those onboard tools are fine for performance but not studio work.
 

Offline Bachus

Re: Sync tempo Genos vs DAW
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2020, 04:59:29 AM »
Yamaha arrangers do NOT sync properly to external clock.

All DSPs related to tempo (i.e. TEMPO Delay, and many others) ignore the midi clock and stick with the style tempo you manually dial in (which is fixed and does NOT follow incoming midi clock). So your delays will be (almost) always out of tempo, which is normally dictated by the DAW.

We asked Yamaha long ago to fix the problem, but we never got an answer (as usual, user support is NOT existent).

Yamaha synths do not have this problem (We checked starting with the 20 years old Motif ES, which works perfectly). All DSPs always sync to incoming midi clock. But they have other problems as well.....

Sadly the arrangers firmware is a relict of another era. They never bothered to fix and modernize.

Anyway this is a bug, because in their data list they claim to support external midi clock sync. You might also ask for a refund or price reduction, because the public specification is contractually binding.

But the average Yamaha arrangers buyer has never used a DAW, so it is unlikely he has discovered or cares about this bug.


There is a reason Yamaha doesnít go deep in daws with the Genos...
Its build as a single device that can do it all..
Its not really meant to be used in a studio..
Nor is it designed to do so..
Its designed to be played in a quiet corner of your home..

That design suits the average buyer of these keyboards..


People like me allways want more,
But then i exactly knew what i was getting when i bought the Genos
I never complain about the Genos itselves, its a great instrument..
But i do try to convince Yamaha to solve issues like this in the future..


In general, i am allways fit to find a workaround tough..
So i just keep the Genos master and send midi clock to the external devices..
Problem solved?

I totally disagree with you on the fact that things like this could force yamaha to give refunds..
Its a customers responsibility to check if an instrument works for them before buying one.
And basically it does what it prommisses, but just on a very basic level and not the advanced level you want.
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Re: Sync tempo Genos vs DAW
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2020, 08:22:16 AM »
I totally disagree with you on the fact that things like this could force yamaha to give refunds..
Its a customers responsibility to check if an instrument works for them before buying one.

This is interesting. Following your reasoning, then a cars manufacturer could advertise in its printed public specification that: "my car's engine has 240 HP (like a Ferrari), fuel consumption is 2 liters/100 km (like a scooter), and it complies with pollution regulation EURO 6d (the latest and greatest)".

Then it could actually deliver a scooter-engine powered car that consumes like a Ferrari and pollutes like a WW2 coal steamer. And if a buyer later discover the sad reality, it is only his fault: he should have checked everything before buying.

Interesting. So it is the buyer's fault. But at least we can conclude that Yamaha is a liar.


And basically it does what it prommisses, but just on a very basic level and not the advanced level you want.

No it does NOT. On the printed specification Yamaha said the instrument would midi sync. On the Midi Manufactures Association specification a device would either be capable of midi syncing or not. There is NOT a "basic level" midi sync and an "advanced level" midi sync. And neither Yamaha said "our midi sync capability is only basic".

In other words: you are either a male or a female. You cannot be a male at the "basic level" vs "advanced level". In the passport of every nation in the world you are classified either as a male or a female. No one expects there is a gender at a "basic" or "advanced" level.

But once again, your theories, although unconventional, are always interesting.
 

Offline Janus

Re: Sync tempo Genos vs DAW
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2020, 10:41:09 AM »
Try to set the tempo controller on more measure points in the master track
To force it back to the right tempo
Another try
Make banklab master and Genos slave with the midiclok
Banklab intern clock Genos extern clock
push sync and start on the Genos
Genos is now waiting on banklab start
and start with banklab

Gr.Jan
« Last Edit: July 20, 2020, 10:45:03 AM by Janus »
 

Offline Pino

Re: Sync tempo Genos vs DAW
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2020, 10:55:41 AM »
The misleading part was when YAMAHA was advertising the Genos pre-sales and had photos on their web site of Genos in front of a wide screen PC showing a DAW in a well equipped music studio, that made us think that we were at last getting the real deal, but then it was found that the Genos is not really comparable with any DAW or midi sequencer and Yamaha doesnít seem to even care about it.

I will still play my SX on gigs but my next purchase for my studio will be a Roland Fantom, in my opinion the best workstation around today, no more Yamaha arranger till they introduce an app or a PC programme with easy DAW integration, after all, they own ĎSteinberg", they still regard the arranger keyboard as an older musicians toy, them days of sit and play are well gone with all the new apps coming out every month.

I have a feeling that we are about to see something really NEW from Yamaha in the next few months.

Pino
SX900 - Ketron SD40 - Maui 5s
 
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Offline soundphase

Re: Sync tempo Genos vs DAW
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2020, 12:07:14 PM »
As IT professional, itís clear that synchronizing all parallel tasks for 32 channels, 8 layers with external DSP processors, and with all user interactions (keyboard, buttons, pedals) is challenging for the operating system If we add external midi tracks, we understand that It is even more complex and itís not a priority for usual players.

A Genos is no more than a dedicated powerful computer.

I spent a lot of time on cakewalk and sound modules 10 years ago : roland xv5080, korg m3, yamaha motif

I was never able to produce the same ę semi professional Ľ results as Iím able to do with the Genos (mainly with good styles associated with good sounds associated with good DSP effects and EQs)

A style provides me ideas. An individual sound, not..

I donít think I will go back. I prefer to have an expandable arranger than a lot of different modules and a computer.

So considering the Genos (and its successors) as the sync tempo master, (and the only module) is for me, the good direction.

In 10 years, we will be able to produce professional sounds with a single arranger.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2020, 12:23:53 PM by soundphase »
 

Offline Janus

Re: Sync tempo Genos vs DAW
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2020, 01:29:45 PM »
I use Cakewalk Bandlad to produce music
I combine the sound of Genos and VSTi. Specifically, I will record Genos' style accompaniment and use instruments from VSTi to further harmonize
There is a problem with tempo as follows:
I setup Cakkewalk project tempo is 92, style on Genos 92 too.
When starting both run at the same time, but at the end it seems Genos always runs faster, so the MIDI sound from VSTi runs slower and deviates from the Genos Style.
Does anyone know how to set up to fix this phenomenon?
Thanks!!!
I found the fault
The setting on both Genos and Bandlab on the same tempo is not good enough
You must have a master and slave
Set the master on the tempo you want
the slave follows that tempo
I did this explanation in my earlier answerd
 

Re: Sync tempo Genos vs DAW
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2020, 01:53:23 PM »
Quote
I prefer to have an expandable arranger than a lot of different modules and a computer.
Racks full of sound modules are seldom needed any more thanks to the introduction of VST instruments over the past decade.

I was always a proponent of Yamaha designing a dedicated DAW for the Genos. I'm not so sure anymore because the quality of sounds in the Genos is great for live performance but not studio work. By "studio work" I mean producing songs for sale or legacy purposes. I record with mostly VST instruments. Some of the Genos SA2 voices are excellent but there are a lot of VST instruments now available that match their sound.
 
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Offline soundphase

Re: Sync tempo Genos vs DAW
« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2020, 08:05:41 PM »
Racks full of sound modules are seldom needed any more thanks to the introduction of VST instruments over the past decade.

I was always a proponent of Yamaha designing a dedicated DAW for the Genos. I'm not so sure anymore because the quality of sounds in the Genos is great for live performance but not studio work. By "studio work" I mean producing songs for sale or legacy purposes. I record with mostly VST instruments. Some of the Genos SA2 voices are excellent but there are a lot of VST instruments now available that match their sound.
Genos results are far better than Tyros results with the same old SA2 samples. As soon as these samples evolve, results will be fantastic.
 

Re: Sync tempo Genos vs DAW
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2020, 08:10:37 PM »
Genos results are far better than Tyros results with the same old SA2 samples. As soon as these samples evolve, results will be fantastic.
Agreed. I'd much rather see Yamaha devote their resources to advancement in the Genos sounds versus a dedicated DAW. Using Cubase with the Genos can be clunky, but it does work.

I wonder how the Montage sounds stack up against the Genos and good-quality VST sounds?
 

Offline SeaGtGruff

Re: Sync tempo Genos vs DAW
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2020, 03:08:38 AM »
I can't speak of what Genos, Tyros, or PSR-S models do, but what I've noticed on the PSR-E models I've used is that if I set the Tempo on the keyboard, record a User Song, convert the User Song to a Standard MIDI File, and then look at the data in the SMF, the Tempo is slightly off from an exact value.

For instance, if I set the Tempo to 96 BPM, the MIDI file will end up with a Tempo that's something like 95.xxx or 96.xxx BPM-- very close to 96 BPM, but not exact.

The odd thing is, the format of the Tempo within the SMF should allow for either an exact value, or-- if an exact value isn't possible for the specified Tempo-- for a value that's closer to the specified Tempo.

I'd have to make some test files to verify, but it's as though the method Yamaha uses either to store the desired Tempo, or to compute the equivalent MIDI value from the desired Tempo, isn't using as many significant digits as it should be, such that it's coming out as a value that's nearly correct, but ever so slightly off.
Michael Rideout
Current keyboards: Yamaha YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443, PSR-EW400, MX49 BK
Current controllers: M-Audio Axiom 61-II
Previous keyboards: Farfisa Matador 611; Casio CTK-710
 

Offline Pino

Re: Sync tempo Genos vs DAW
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2020, 05:38:29 AM »
Guys, I'm not suggesting a studio level daw, if I was into serious studio recording I wouldnít have an arranger keyboard near the place, a good controller would be all that would be required, ++

Yamaha owns a small $15, iPad app called MusicStudio, (see photo)
Why canít they adapt this super easy to use app for the arranger keyboard like adding a chord track, Iím sure that 90% of Yamaha arranger keyboard players would be satisfied with just moving a few notes back into place or even entering the chords in the chord track and getting really good results, nothing more frustration than recording a piece and just one bum note then using the Ďpunch in-punch outí only to find that the FX is broken and having to restart the recording.

This would be an enormous move forward for all YAMAHA arranger keyboards form the entry lever to the Genos, these are nice words "plug and play" 😀

Pino
« Last Edit: July 21, 2020, 05:57:53 AM by Pino »
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Offline eallan

Re: Sync tempo Genos vs DAW
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2020, 05:55:07 PM »
Hi Pino ,
Is this a special Yamaha version of "Music Studio" by Alexander Gross or is there a Chord Track in
the Version of "Music Studio"  currently on sale at
https://apps.apple.com/gb/app/music-studio/id328608539
I have had a quick look at the User Manual and see no mention of a Chord Track.

OOPS , just re-read your post!! - oh how I wish there was a Chord Track in it.
Have you found any iOS Apps with a decent chord sequencer?
« Last Edit: July 21, 2020, 07:02:44 PM by eallan »
 

Offline Pino

Re: Sync tempo Genos vs DAW
« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2020, 07:08:33 AM »
This is a brilliant little app for the money
It even has a sampler.

 https://youtu.be/c-r4ajXvs08

Pino
SX900 - Ketron SD40 - Maui 5s
 

Offline markstyles

Re: Sync tempo Genos vs DAW
« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2020, 04:20:28 PM »
Genos is a great machine, and some of it's patches, I prefer over any in my other hardware, or software libraries.  For what it does it doesn't bother me delays don't sync..If they implemented 'all the most desirable features, the machine would be several thousand more, and they sales would really fall off.

I don't get worked up over Genos delays syncing to Logic Pro.. Just adjust the delay to my taste, OR if the delays are really important I'll use a VST (Logic Pro X uses uses Audio Units).

One thing to bear in mind with Genos and Daws  USB runs at a much faster rate,  if you're trying to have Genos spit out 20 note on beat 1 with 5 pin midi, you're bound notice it's sluggishness.

One last note,  it seems since the last update and to a degree with my Genos,  Usb midi gets dropped occassionally...To me if feels like the Usb jack on Genos is a mite too big.. I do not get a solid connection..Some times I stick a sliver of paper into jack, to make a tight connection.   It also might be the USB MIDI cable.  Back in the 'olden days' of midi and synth hardware, manufacturers used 'military spec', meaning the plug or jack cost more to make, but it always worked. By late 90's or so a lot os synth makers went to cheaper plugs.  So some cables/jacks may have been a speck larger or smaller.

Yesterday, the ability of Genos to read midi sync died.  It read midi notes coming in, but not midi clocks. After only 5 minutes, it dawned on me to reset Genos. by holding down highest note and turning machine on.  Once again Genos was able to understand midi clock
« Last Edit: September 01, 2020, 06:15:14 PM by markstyles »