Author Topic: Extracting pre-installed Expansions  (Read 1913 times)

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Offline RagJose

Extracting pre-installed Expansions
« on: July 23, 2020, 02:10:38 AM »
I would like to preserve part of the Styles from the pre-installed Expansion packs when installing a new pack (which erases the pre-installed ones), but the "Copy" function is not available for the Expansion folder.  Is there a way to "extract" the pre-installed packs to USB so one can use YEM to combine their styles with the new pack's?

Thanks  in advance -- Josť

Online ckobu

Re: Extracting pre-installed Expansions
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2020, 08:12:47 AM »
You can do this if you install Packages in SX, connect the keyboard to USB Storage mode and copy the content where you want. Watch the video.

https://youtu.be/tJU5BfNiqUA

Online EileenL

Re: Extracting pre-installed Expansions
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2020, 12:33:34 PM »
You can save styles from the pack one at a time. Just select the style and you can then save it to USB.
Remember though if it has used some of the voices in the pack you will need to re-voice to some on the keyboard.

Offline RagJose

Re: Extracting pre-installed Expansions
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2020, 02:43:51 PM »
Thanks, Casper and Eileen.

The boot-up holding "Playlist" doesn't seem to work with the SX.  Seems it doesn't have a "USB storage mode", or it is activated with another button.

Eventually I tried MusicSoft Downloader and it does allow access to all the Expansion folders and files, and you can operate in bunches, not just on one file at a time.

Interestingly enough, right-clicking to "Copy" and then "Paste" (to avoid having to "move" the files forth and back between the keyboard and the computer) works with some Expansion folders but not with others.  No explanation, just a message "Cannot execute the operation".  But Moving with the MSD buttons works fine.

I'm still to check whether copying the Expansion .vce's to the VOICE folder spares the need to revoicing.  And if so, where to copy the .drm's.  Or maybe they can all be just left along with the copied Styles, as they came in the Expansion pack.  Any hints or thoughts?

Cheers -- Josť
 

Offline RagJose

Re: Extracting pre-installed Expansions
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2020, 01:04:18 AM »
Just to close this topic, thanks to some hints from Eileen and Chris.  I downloaded the pre-installed packs from Yamaha's site, imported them into YEM, selected the styles I wanted to keep from each one, plus the desired styles of the "purchased" packs and combined them all into a custom pack.  Just in case, I included also all the voices from all involved packs.  How gratifying to have 4G of User memory.
 

Offline Lucille Chung

Re: Extracting pre-installed Expansions
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2020, 03:25:26 AM »
It seems the MusicSoft Downloader can save the Expansion pack files (as *.aus format) and then export them, but the files once exported back to the machine aren't recognized in the User Drive or Expansion Drive.   

So the functionality of the MusicSoft Downloader is limited to pulling off personally produced songs from the User Drive (or attached USB chips) and storing them on the computer.     But you can use another USB chip for that as well.    Maybe that's why they haven't released an update to the MusicSoft Downloader package for a few years - most people probably don't use it.

I wonder how many files can be put onto the User Drive.    It has to have the same (expensive) physical memory as the Expansion Drive section for playback speed.   And it probably varies from machine to machine.    I haven't maxed it out yet on my SX900 but I've just started.
PSR-SX900 and PSR-S910
 

Online EileenL

Re: Extracting pre-installed Expansions
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2020, 03:46:18 PM »
You only have 4Gb of memory on user drive but it is enough to allow ypou to store lots of styles , songs, and registrations to.

Offline Lucille Chung

Re: Extracting pre-installed Expansions
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2020, 05:16:09 PM »
OK.   So the User Drive is 4Gb.   And the Expansion Drive is about 1.6GB.   And both of these are fast memory.

As you mention above, it's possible to save styles from Expansion or User to a USB chip if they aren't DRM'd.      But the USB chip is slow memory.      If you select a style on a USB chip for use in the Song Area, does it automatically copy it into a fast buffer?
PSR-SX900 and PSR-S910
 

Offline overover

Re: Extracting pre-installed Expansions
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2020, 07:54:13 PM »
... I wonder how many files can be put onto the User Drive.    It has to have the same (expensive) physical memory as the Expansion Drive section for playback speed.   And it probably varies from machine to machine.  ...

Hi Lucille,

what you call "Expansion Drive" is NOT a separate "drive", but it's only a FOLDER (called "Expansion") inside the User drive.

When you install Expansion Packs on your SX900, (only) the WAV data (the "Samples") of the Expansion Voices go to the "Expansion Memory" area (which is 1GB on the SX900 and has a different (and much faster) memory technology than the User memory.

All other contents (except Voice Wave data) of Expansion Packs always go automatically into the "Expansion" folder inside the User drive.

The User drive generally offers a higher reading speed than an external flash memory (USB stick).

In normal operation, the minimally longer loading time of Styles, MIDI files, Multi Pad banks, User Voices, etc. (when loaded from a USB stick) is hardly noticeable. But if you create Registrations in which the STYLE is switched (within a certain song), it is advisable NOT to call up these Styles from the USB stick, but rather to copy them to the User drive (and then memorize to the individual Registrations from there).


Best regards,
Chris
« Last Edit: August 10, 2020, 07:58:04 PM by overover »
Everyone always said: This is not possible! - Then someone came and ... just did it!
 

Offline Lucille Chung

Re: Extracting pre-installed Expansions
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2020, 08:21:26 PM »
Excellent info.

So the Expansion space allowance is somewhere around 1.6Gb out of the 4.0Gb total User Drive?     Is that hard set, or adjustable?   I imagine Yamaha put limits in to make sure people didn't over-run the User Drive with imported styles.

So best practice is to move styles from the USB chips to the User Drive before using them.

How do we know how much of the super-fast memory (where the wav data goes) is used?    And if styles are brought into the User Drive but not the Expansion folder, is the wav data also put into the super-fast memory or does that only happen if we import the style from YEM into the Expansion folder?
PSR-SX900 and PSR-S910
 

Online EileenL

Re: Extracting pre-installed Expansions
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2020, 08:54:51 PM »
You have 4Gb of user memory and 1Gb of flash memory. Flash is used for sampled packs of voices only.

Offline Toril S

Re: Extracting pre-installed Expansions
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2020, 09:23:02 PM »
Well, my S975 is envious :)
Toril S

Genos, Tyros 5, PSR S975, PSR 2100
and PSR-47.
Former keyboards: PSR-S970.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLVwWdb36Yd3LMBjAnm6pTQ?view_as=subscriber



Toril's PSR Performer Page
 

Offline overover

Re: Extracting pre-installed Expansions
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2020, 10:51:10 PM »
... So the Expansion space allowance is somewhere around 1.6Gb out of the 4.0Gb total User Drive?     Is that hard set, or adjustable?   I imagine Yamaha put limits in to make sure people didn't over-run the User Drive with imported styles. ...

Hi Lucille,

the Expansion Memory (which is, as mentioned, used for the Wave data of the installed Expansion Voices) is a separate memory (1GB). Therefore, this 1GB is NOT "out of" (part of) the 4GB User Memory. Inside the User Memory there is the User drive, and there are also saved the User defined System Settings.

The Expansion Memory uses a very special, so called "NAND Flash" technology which provides an extremly fast reading speed.

In contrast, the User Memory uses the "eMMC" memory technology which is similar to the SSD (Solid State Disk) technology used in PCs. And, as mentioned before: All User files (e.g. Styles, MIDI files etc.) can be saved either in the internal User drive (4GB on the SX900) OR on a USB stick.

The "Expansion" folder is located within the User drive. In the corresponding SUBFOLDERS of the "Expansion" folder you can find all contents of the Expansion Packs. Note: The "Voices" that are in the "Expansion" folder are so called "Voice Set" files only. The WAVE data of the Expansion Voices is stored in the separate Expansion Memory. The user does NOT have any direct access to this Wave data. Selecting a Voice Set file (within a subfolder of the "Expansion" folder) automatically loads the Wave data for this Voice from the Expansion Memory AND make the correct Voice Set data for this Voice.


So best practice is to move styles from the USB chips to the User Drive before using them. ...

As menioned, this is not absolutely necessary. Using external Styles from the User drive is minimally faster. But it is easier to make backup copies of USB sticks. Note: In the case of the User drive, you have to save (copy) each file type separately (Styles in Style Mode, MIDI files in Song Mode, etc.).

With the GENOS the User drive can be saved "in one go" using the so-called "USB Storage Mode". Unfortunately, this is not possible with SX models. With the "MusicSoft Downloader" (MSD), you can see all the different file types in the User drive AT ONCE. But since the MSD uses the MIDI protocol for file transfer, this works relatively slow (not recommended for backing up many files).

... How do we know how much of the super-fast memory (where the wav data goes) is used?

You can see this (only) in the Expansion Manager (YEM): Click on your Install Target (PSR-SX900) in the YEM. In the top you will see a drop down box. The "Voice Wave Size" (which concerns the expansion memory of 1GB) is displayed there by default. Alternatively, you can have other important data displayed there, e.g. the "User Drive Size" (= the space required for the currently selected content in the User drive).

And if styles are brought into the User Drive but not the Expansion folder, is the wav data also put into the super-fast memory or does that only happen if we import the style from YEM into the Expansion folder?

The "Wave data" I am talking about here only refers to Expansion VOICES.

Standard Styles (also called "MIDI Styles") do NOT contain any Wave data.

The Audio (Wave) data of so called "+Audio Styles" (which contain an Audio Drum track) is stored directly in the individual Style files (.aus). Some previous models (e.g. Tyros5) have a special memory area for the Wave data of +Audio styles. But in newer models (SX and Genos) this is no longer the case: You can play +Audio Styles (recognizable by the relatively large file size) directly from a USB stick.

When you install an Expansion Pack that contains +Audio Styles, they are automatically copied to the corresponding subfolder of the "Expansion" folder (within the User drive). Since the User drive on a SX900 is relatively large, you can leave the +Audio Styles there. (IF desired, they can be saved (one by one) to a location outside the Expansion folder OR to a USB stick, of course. Note: Inside the Expansion folder, the COPY feature does not work.)


Hope this helps!

Best regards,
Chris
« Last Edit: August 10, 2020, 10:55:18 PM by overover »
Everyone always said: This is not possible! - Then someone came and ... just did it!
 

Offline Lucille Chung

Re: Extracting pre-installed Expansions
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2020, 11:55:47 PM »
Thanks Chris.   That helps a lot.     And it explains also the *.aus files I get when pulling styles from the User Drive with the MusicSoft Downloader.

So would it be correct to say that the main rationale for having the YEM to create the Expansion Packs for loading into the PSR Expanded Memory are:

a)  To allow for DRM to be complied with within the Expansion Memory Folder zone
b)  To allow for automatically saving off the wav data of the expansion voices to the NAND Flash from the Expansion Packs when they are loaded.

And that with file operations outside of the Expansion Pack Folder  a) and b) are not in operation as they are not managed or controlled by instructions transferred from the YEM.
PSR-SX900 and PSR-S910