Topic: Arranger keyboard vs controller and software

[dlbeaty]

An older thread discussed the advantages of using a controller keyboard in conjunction with a laptop and software. BTW, I appreciate the help and advice I have received on this forum so far.

My situation actually begins with computer software with a Tascam interface that replaced a Tascam cassette Portastudio. I wanted to record songs for myself and others in my home studio, and this option has become very affordable. As a guitar player and drummer, I had not planned on using the keyboard much until I realized all the possibilities that came with the Cubase software package included with the Tascam interface. I have since added a number of VSTs that sound great, even better than the Yamaha voices in some cases.

Before this my wife bought a PSR 730 from a friend with the intention of learning the piano. When this same friend showed me how to use the built in styles, I got even more into learning how to use the two systems together. I found I could expand the number of styles and even purchased a cool software called One Man Band that made it easier to demo the styles before loading it into the 730.

The convenience of triggering different elements of the style, customizing the voices, muting when I want to on the fly to hear immediately is so helpful and time saving. What I have been doing is to record the chord arrangement in Cubase, and playing it into the PSR730 through the MIDI interface to play the styles. (Instead of using the bass keys). As the software plays the song I can push buttons on the keyboard to mix the music and build the song as I desire.

This yields both an editable MIDI file and a wave file in Cubase that can be mixed conveniently. I can either revoice the Yamaha voices or use a VST instrument instead.

My point is that I am at home with software and hardware solutions. My limitation with the PSR730 is in the voices and styles that are outdated. Working around this limitation is very tedious, that is why I am researching later arranger keyboards. But if there is another system I would like to hear about it.

Dan

[Genos!]

Dan,

Pretty much the same on this end. Was an old Casio workstation (arranger) user. Software was included as well as Cubase 3 later on as things progressed. The Casio had it all for its time: intros, endings, one-finger chording, etc. back in the day... very similar to Yamaha today.

Purchased a Roland VS-2480 with 4 expansion boards for mixing and mastering. Added keyboards and modules as I went along.

Never concerned myself with purchasing a controller, simply because not all units could be bought as modules, so had to buy keyboards and most keyboards can be used a controllers. Keyboards take up room, how many keyboards can two hands play at the same time anyway? I currently own 4 that I use and intend on keeping.

Bought a MOTU MTP/AV that could handle 8 midi ins/outs simultaneously (and could sync video) to mainly use a PC for creating and playing multiple midi files. Also sometime during the same time period, updated my Casio keyboards and purchased a Korg TritonLe.

Wanted an 88 keyboard with good piano feel, so purchased the Roland FA-08; the 1st real opportunity to purchase a good module instead of a keyboard (Integra-7), :sigh: and I didn't do it.

Needed something to integrate the audio routing of all the keyboards, DAW and VST's, and the VS-2480, so purchased the 32 channel (32in/32out) MOTU 896mk3Hy i/o interface.

Wanted the best sounds currently on the market without having to upgrade my 10 y/o computer [and didn't want to mess around with latency!], so bought the Genos.

Casio, Korg, Roland, and Yamaha all sound good, and each has their own particular sound. When assigning parts to each keyboard, the overall sound of "the band" (or, orchestra) is quite impressive. Any one of them alone (yes, even the Genos) sounds whimpy compared to real instruments. What is important is the cleanness of the sounds, and by removing onboard effects I have that.

One thing I didn't mention, is that somewhere along the way I bought one of the first midi guitar "hookups" the Axon and the module, the TC-Helicon Voicelive Rack for harmonies and GSP1101 for guitar modeling and effects, and a Yamaha WX5 wind controller.

To add insult to injury ([PC-based]), I added the audiophile/everything version of PGMusic's BIAB to the mix with "live virtual real-life" pseudo players. Probably somewhat "great" in their own right, but totally missing the human feel when mixing them into original music and scores.

I guess that is it! That's my story and I'm sticking to it (mostly). I'm sure that with 'some-timers' there are details and timings that I have missed.

Pretty much any keyboard will do as a controller, but a dedicated controller with good software will shine (as a controller). The Roland FA line is marketed as a DAW controller, so it depends on what you are looking to achieve.


Edit: I am afraid that finding "the best" sound (ymmv) is the most expensive component of the system.  :sigh:


My Recommendations:

I highly recommend the Genos if you need Woodwinds or Brass and/or an overall "good" arranger.


IF you are looking for something "on the cheap" (more voices) I recommend the following:
https://www.spitfireaudio.com/shop/a-z/bbc-symphony-orchestra-discover/

For 49 euro/usd or FREE, It won't eat your PC for lunch, add a huge amount of latency, or even take up much room... (highly recommended).


If you are looking for something more along the synth route that will help you out have a look at Unify:
https://pluginguru.com

Unify will help you keep a light footprint while integrating your "soundscape" and new features are being added weekly.

[ton37]

In my opinion, it is important to consider what appeals to you most, what you enjoy doing most. Especially if you want to put a lot of energy and time (and money) into it, it is good to make a choice.
A. Software, embedded in 1 piece of hardware, with limited options for making changes. Immediately available and ready to play ... the Yammie Keyboard
B. Software (DAW) installed on your computer. You can make your workflow a little easier by using hardware, like controllers and / or a midi keyboard. Infinitely flexible, but you also have to put in a lot of energy to get to know the software and hardware and to coordinate them. .. so a DAW (eg Cubase) and a 'simple' keyboard and 2/3 controllers for easy control of the software.
C. A combination of A and B. In fact, the new generation of Yamahas (Genos and PSR-SX) is an attempt to cram A (the keyboard) and B (a DAW) into one device. It is not without reason that Yamaha bought Steinberg / Cubase. If you look closely you can see a lot of elements from Cubase integrated in the operating system of the last scions of Yamaha (Genos and PSR-SX). In the near future, that will (hopefully) happen more and more, provided Yamaha is convinced that the 2 separate branches (Cubase and Yamaha Keyboards) will yield more profit if it will attract more consumers as 1 well-integrated (music) branch ( = more monetary profit.)

So fortunately nowadays there are plenty of choices for everyone. It is sometimes good to explore those areas to discover what appeals to you most.
Just my 2 cents ...

[dlbeaty]

In my opinion, it is important to consider what appeals to you most, what you enjoy doing most. Especially if you want to put a lot of energy and time (and money) into it, it is good to make a choice.
A. Software, embedded in 1 piece of hardware, with limited options for making changes. Immediately available and ready to play ... the Yammie Keyboard
B. Software (DAW) installed on your computer. You can make your workflow a little easier by using hardware, like controllers and / or a midi keyboard. Infinitely flexible, but you also have to put in a lot of energy to get to know the software and hardware and to coordinate them. .. so a DAW (eg Cubase) and a 'simple' keyboard and 2/3 controllers for easy control of the software.
C. A combination of A and B. In fact, the new generation of Yamahas (Genos and PSR-SX) is an attempt to cram A (the keyboard) and B (a DAW) into one device. It is not without reason that Yamaha bought Steinberg / Cubase. If you look closely you can see a lot of elements from Cubase integrated in the operating system of the last scions of Yamaha (Genos and PSR-SX). In the near future, that will (hopefully) happen more and more, provided Yamaha is convinced that the 2 separate branches (Cubase and Yamaha Keyboards) will yield more profit if it will attract more consumers as 1 well-integrated (music) branch ( = more monetary profit.)

So fortunately nowadays there are plenty of choices for everyone. It is sometimes good to explore those areas to discover what appeals to you most.
Just my 2 cents ...

Thanks Ton,

I was not aware that Yamaha bought Cubase. I am several generations back on Cubase, and don't have the time and will to keep up the learning curve and repurchasing new computers, like I am on keyboards. I cannot see abandoning the DAW for my purposes, but can see how the move is going in that direction you mentioned.

After rediscovering this site, I have been looking at how I can used the newer styles in my style player One Man Band. I may not need a new keyboard for now. I already have Native Instruments Komplete 7 with all of its instruments and samples that I have not fully utilized yet. Maybe downloaded styles might meet my need for now.

Dan

[Bachus]

Some facts..

The only professional arranger keyboard software is miles behind the Genos..
Arranger keyboards have a wonderfully ballanced sound set (not to be found in software)

Where a daw offers advantages is in editing and recording capabilities..

The best thing of my Genos is that it makes a great controller for software instruments..
A mac with mainstage and logic is a perfect tool to expand the Genos with.

Also a simple ipad with a usb audio device is a great way to expand the Genos and record on the fly..


A computer to me is not as much a replacement for a keyboard.
Its a perfect enhancement for a keyboard..

[mikf]

Although the modern arranger has many of the facilities of a workstation, it is primarily intended to be played. So if your primary interest is live performing, whether for an audience or just yourself, the arranger is a great instrument. But if your primary interest is producing, or assembling music, then  although you can do this on the arranger, the workstation is probably more suitable. Mike

[travlin-easy]

Mike, this was done on a PSR-S970 and it is, beyond a doubt, movie quality. No PC involved, no software required. My friend, Walter, who lives in Argentina, is a genius when it comes to composing masterpieces on an arranger keyboard. Many of these were created using a PSR-670. Listen to his rendition of Scarborough Fair at https://www.keyboard-player.org.uk/mtrax/index.php?kptrack=scarborough%20fair&performer=Maiemas&location=

Gary

[mikf]

Gary - I don't disagree that it is more than possible to produce quality recordings on the arranger. My post was really the other way round, that the arranger is primarily-although not solely- designed as a musical instrument to be played live. I may be wrong but the person who asked the original question seemed like someone who manufactures music rather than plays. I was suggesting that the arranger may not be the primary choice in this situation. But it certainly would be very usable.
Mike

[travlin-easy]

Mike, I agree that an arranger keyboard was meant to be played, but for composing musical creations, I think it has the edge over software. Just listen to some of the other songs on Walter's music page. He truly has mastered this procedure using nothing more than an arranger keyboard.

All the best,

Gary

[ugawoga]

Hi
To Me Vst is far superior to The Genos.
That being said Vst is a great companion to enhance the Genos with.
Arturia and the Korg collection are great and Sampletank 4 is fantastic.
Also Fm8.

Anyway it is all great fun

All the Best
john

[Toril S]

For composing music the arranger is superb! You can instantly hear how the piece sounds, change instruments, styles, and come up with stunning results. It takes very little time, while doing the same thing on a computer takes a lot of time. The arranger is a fantastic tool!

[EileenL]

Walter multi tracks and also uses Sony to produce and add EQ to the end product sounds. He also uses a lot of sampled voices. It is not straight of the keyboard  He is a very talented man.

[Pino]

I have to agree with Eileen, I listen to his music often, his productions are much bigger than just an arranger keyboard , I recognise some of the soundfonts used and the reverb is first class, he’s probably using ‘Pro Tools’ or similar as a main tool.

Pino