Topic: How do I play a G/A in "AI Fingering"

[chony]

How do I play a G/A in "AI Fingering".

When I play A and the G on top I get A7
When I play A and GBD next octave up I get Gadd9

[Rick D.]

chony,

I can't find a way to get it myself. It will be interesting to see what others do.

Rick D.

[jwyvern]

You can do a Gadd9/A if that would sound OK (It should not clash because the 9th is an A as well).

Play ABDGA   the last two played with the thumb rather than break fingers!

John

[andyg]

Don't have a Yammie plugged in next to the computer, but.....

I think A B G should be the easiest way to get close to this. The display will say G*/A. Not absolutely perfect but probably close enough 90% of the time and doesn't have the 9th that you don't really want.

This will work for all major chords that are suspended over their major 2nds. What you're doing is omitting the 5th of the main chord.

AI is a most wonderful thing, doing more than I think even Yamaha think it can (they didn't invent it!) and more than is covered in Jackie Marsden's excellent articles in Yamaha Club Magazine. I've been asked to write a definitive guide to AI Fingered mode but even in lockdown there seems to be too many things on the list to be done first! 

[RONBO]

hello all, 

Respectfully, may I suggest that G/A was not meant to be played using AI fingering but rather Fingered on Bass or even Fingured

I know this does not directly solve your issue.........but its my opinion only

regards

Ron

[Bruce Breen]

Thanks Ron - that is exactly what I was going to suggest.

Chony - One way to play the G/A type chords (chord/bass note) is to set "style fingering" to 'Fingered on Bass'.
See the PDF at this link for reference...(a page from my Yamaha Reference Manual).
https://app.box.com/s/ni5jegx8a0rap3ttgvg03njceejbb5mf

You do lose the "AI" software feature in doing this however...
So, the info that Chris has offered below (click on link and read) may have the answer you are looking for about the "AI fingered" setting.

[overover]

Hi all,

here is a link to the "AI Fingered Workshop by Heidrun Dolde" (German version):

https://heidruns-musikerseiten.de/media/download/pdf/workshops/style/AI-Fingered_HeidrunDolde.pdf


I translated this document into English on this site:  >>> https://www.onlinedoctranslator.com/en/translationform

You can download the resulting English version here:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ndc0xlefbxbudma/AI-Fingered_HeidrunDolde.de.en.pdf?dl=0

(You do NOT have to register or log in to this Dropbox site! If a corresponding window should appear, please simply click on the "X" to close the window.


Maybe this will help some of you here.


Best regards,
Chris

[Bruce Breen]

You can do a Gadd9/A if that would sound OK (It should not clash because the 9th is an A as well).

Play ABDGA   the last two played with the thumb rather than break fingers!

John

I did some double-checking on my keyboard.
John is on to something with the AI fingered, although it is awkward to say the least.

If you use my original suggestion of "Fingered on Bass", you can achieve what he has said by only playing 4 notes.
Start with a 4 note G chord.
From the left, play the first G, as well as B, D, & G (octave).
Then change the bass note - from the left, play the first A, with the B. D, G - your display will show Gadd9/A.
As John says that should do the job for you since the 9th of chord G is the A.

If playing 4 notes is too much, you can play the A, B & D only - then your display will show Bm7/A which will sound similar, depending on the melody notes.

Hope this helps!

[valimaties]

[Dromeus]

Actually it is quite easy to play G/A using AI Fingered:

- Play the G chord in first inversion (b-d-g)
- Add the bass note A (a-b-d-g) which result in a Gadd9 chord
- Add a A# note (a-a#-b-d-g), voila: G/A

This fingering needs all of your five fingers, but it's quite easy. Simple rule:

- use fingers 3-2-1 to play the base chord in 1st inversion
- add the bass note using the 5th finger
- put the 4th finger at the key between the 3rd and 5th

Note that the a# does not belong to the G/A chord, so you better don't use LEFT=ON with this fingering.

[Ed B]

Hi
Check the style you are using. There are two types, Pro and Session. Session styles are designed to create more complex chords out of what you play. For example, play a g7 and you could get a g13. They do not work for every song but can be great at adding some complex harmony and because they change what you actually play they can give odd results when you are looking for a specific chord. There are not to many of them.
Just a thought.
Regards
Ed B

[janamdo]

Actually it is quite easy to play G/A using AI Fingered:

- Play the G chord in first inversion (b-d-g)
- Add the bass note A (a-b-d-g) which result in a Gadd9 chord
- Add a A# note (a-a#-b-d-g), voila: G/A

This fingering needs all of your five fingers, but it's quite easy. Simple rule:

- use fingers 3-2-1 to play the base chord in 1st inversion
- add the bass note using the 5th finger
- put the 4th finger at the key between the 3rd and 5th

Note that the a# does not belong to the G/A chord, so you better don't use LEFT=ON with this fingering.

I am studying now the AI fingering mode, but G/A  is G chord is g-b-d, so this make no sense G/A because a is not belonging to the G chord (right?)
 

[valimaties]

I am studying now the AI fingering mode, but G/A  is G chord is g-b-d, so this make no sense G/A because a is not belonging to the G chord (right?)
 

Hi janamdo.
The letter after "/" character will say which note will play in bass (or by bass instrument). There could be a lot of combinations in real music band, which one instrument could play a chord, another one other chord, bass will play one or a combination of notes, so finally it wil be a gorgeous combination 😁
G major or minor is a simple chord, but could be a lot of complex chords related to this simple one:
G add9 contains A key. But if this nineth is taken by another instrument, not by the accompagnament instrument, the sound is more pure. Think about the guitar to sing G-B-D and the bass will sing A... Nice... Now think about guitar playing A-B-D and bass playing G key... This will be other sound... There are a lot of combinations between instruments, so that is AI for, to take this advantages of multiple instruments, everyone singing some special notes/chords and the sound to be more pure, clean...

Regards,
Vali

[janamdo]

Hi Vali,

As i understand it now its a "split chord"
Here i do have a example of eleventh chord as a chord split : G11 (6 notes) ) -> F/G -> Dm 7/G ( two split chords made out of G11)
The bass note here is G , so for example   F/G is a bass note G + F maj triad   

The whole AI fingering is not understood by me , while all other fingering modes are not difficult to understand

Regards
Jan

[mikf]

 Split chords - ? No idea what you mean there.
The bass note in a slash chord does not have to be part of the normal chord. A good example is a descending bass run C C/B C/A/ C/G. Or even a chromatic bass run. The bass notes are just added to the chord. You could of course give them names like C7, or C6 to add these notes. But even that is not strictly correct because the note added is conventionally not the bass note, but a higher note. Slash chords are just what they are - a chord played against a different bass. I think you are trying to find a rationale for something that just 'is'.
Now how the AI works is a different matter.  It might be very difficult to play some of theses combinations even using AI. A better way is when you are using a multi note lead instrument like piano, is to finger some of the chord in the RH. With the bass in the left. The AI is often smart enough to get this. My experience of AI is that it is not perfect, but pretty good at getting it most of the time.  Its even better when you use AI full keyboard playing organ or piano. Even Andy G, a true expert in this area, admits that there are some mysteries in the way AI software works that he still hasn't completely fathomed.
Mike

[valimaties]

No - AI fingered it not means splitting chords

AI Fingered mode helps you take other note in Bass than the chord played by the acmp...

For example:
If you want to play G but you need D in bass, you will play D1+G1 keys (D and G from the same octave).
If you want to play E but you need Ab in bass, you will play those two keys, but the bass note you want to play is the left-most key, so it will be Ab1+E2.

[andyg]

If you want to play E but you need A# in bass, you will play those two keys, but the bass note you want to play is the left-most key, so it will be A#1+E2.

That does not work, I have an S970 next to me and I'm playing it as a type this. In AI Fingered mode, A#1 + E2 produces Bb b5 (Bb with a flattened 5th), which is what I'd expect. From a 'standing start', the keyboard chooses Bb rather than A# for the name of the chord. To get E/A#  (E over A#) I needed to set the split point to G# (you don't need to do this on the Genos with its extra keys) and play A# B E G#.

If you play A#1 + E2 in Fingered On Bass mode, it doesn't play a chord at all.

[valimaties]

Sorry, my mistake, because hurrying 
It was about E/Ab, not A#...

[janamdo]

AI Fingered mode helps you take other note in Bass than the chord played by the acmp...

The reason for playing another Bass note ( not default) on the keyboard with acmp is only for a different chord fingering then or... getting a other sound out of to the acmp?
There are only some "other bassnotes" allowed if they are musical to my ear then?

[mikf]

You play slash chords for the same reason you play any chord - because it is the most appropriate chords for the music. You can also just play the basic G chord and it will not sound too bad, maybe not perfect but that is a matter of balance between what you can easily manage in live playing and what is perfect. My guess is that your playing is not yet at the 'perfect ' stage so see my last comment.
Dont get confused between the chord and how you need to play it on an arranger. Arrangers have some limitations in reproducing unusual or advanced chords, and the designers have had to devise unconventional and sometimes quite difficult fingering methods to 'instruct' the keyboard how to behave to achieve these chords. Some of these are not easy for the learner, or even the more advanced player.
I am studying now the AI fingering mode, but G/A  is G chord is g-b-d, so this make no sense G/A because a is not belonging to the G chord (right?)
This statement tells me that you are not grasping the concept of advanced chords. It would be like saying that Gb9 makes no sense because it contains the note Ab which is not part of chord of G. But it is part of the chord Gb9, because that is exactly what a Gb9 chord is. An instruction to play chord G with and Ab added. In the same way G/A ior G /Bb are legitimate chords. They are similar but different chords from G because it is an instruction to play a chord G with the root replaced by A or Bb. The sound difference can be quite subtle. 
 I also wonder if you are not getting away too deeply into something which you shouldn't be worrying about yet. It is indicated from your questions and statements that you are at the novice stage both musically and playing wise. Most people should not need to worry too much about things like slash chords or complicated fingering methods at that stage. There are mountains still to climb just mastering the 'easy' stuff.   
Mike
 

[janamdo]

Thanks,
Its a personal interest to master chords, but the subject is vast.
For composing with computer also needed.
Did not a professional study for chords , so it makes it harder to get grip on.

Well there are triads, 7,9,11,13 chords roughly
What is the concept of advanced chord ( first a definition of it )

"By ‘more advanced’ we mean chords that go slightly beyond the basic major, minor and seventh chords that most beginner guitarists know."

Its true i did not study those chord beyond basics systematically..     

[mikf]

 'Advanced' is a general term used to indicate less common usually altered chords and progressions.
Actually chords are very simple, not vast, because there are only 3 common chords, - major, minor and diminished.  Everything else is an altered or extended version of these and the alterations are generally obvious from the chord name. Eg 9th means add a 9th, 6th means add a 6th, b9 means add a flattened 9th. Sometimes there is more than one alteration. The numbers are just the note of the scale in that key.  One slight complication is that there are two common versions of a 7th you have to learn to recognize.   
The theory is simple, the difficult part is learning to play them seamlessly, without thinking. This is where the real work is because if you can't play a G, Em, Am, D progression rapidly and easily, almost without thinking, there is little point worrying about whether it should be G6, or Gb9, or G/A!
Dont overthink the theory, just learn to play the basics. Move on when it is mastered.
BTW - in many cases the extended chord designation is just a formal recognition of a note that is simultaneously happening in the melody, and doesn't have to be included in the chord because you are playing it anyway the melody.
Mike   

[janamdo]

I do have here good studymaterial for learning playing the basic chords
You are right, i totally agree with you, this is the first step : "just learn to play the basics. Move on when it is mastered".
Thanks for the summarize of the chords very helpful for further study
As i understand it now : alterations are for triads and chance a existing triad note into another note (sus, aug, dim triads)  and  extensions (adding note(s) to triads) in order to get 6, 7,9,11,13 chords

You wrote: not clear what you mean with this ?

BTW - in many cases the extended chord designation is just a formal recognition of a note that is simultaneously happening in the melody, and doesn't have to be included in the chord because you are playing it anyway the melody.

Jan

[overover]

BTW - in many cases the extended chord designation is just a formal recognition of a note that is simultaneously happening in the melody, and doesn't have to be included in the chord because you are playing it anyway the melody.
Mike

@janamdo
Hi Jan,

maybe this example explains what Mike is meaning here:

Assuming you play the C major chord (C - E - G) with your left hand, and the melody (right hand) plays the notes C, B, A, G one after the other.

Instead of constantly playing C major, you could alternatively play the following chords to these 4 melody notes:

C (C - E - G)
Cmaj7 (C - E - G - B)
C/A (= C major chord over the Bass note "A")    or play Am (A - C - E)   or play Am7 (A - C - E - G)
C/G (= C major chord over the Bass note "G")

You could also try to play the following with the "AI Fingered" setting:

C major chord: Play the notes C - E - G or simply play it with only two fingers: C - E

Then play the following "two-finger chords" (while watching the chord display):
B - C
A - C
G - C


Edit:
You can generally "force" a certain desired Bass note by playing this note as the lowest note of the chord and octaving it.

Example: For C/E (= C major chord over Bass note E) play the notes E - G - C - E.

But in the AI Fingered mode this so-called "Bass control" can in many cases be done much more easily (see above).


Hope this helps!

Best regards,
Chris

[janamdo]

Hi Jan,

maybe this example explains what Mike is meaning here:

Unfortanely i don't understand this example yet : C/A ? and more
But if a melodynote is also a part of the chord , then a simpler chord notation can be done 

[mikf]

If the extended note is in the melody then there is usually no sound advantage to adding it to the lh chord because by playing it in the melody you are already adding it to the harmony. The chord - or harmony - is not just what you play in your lh, it’s made up of everything you play.
 Does this mean that the person writing the arrangement could have left it out of the chord notation - maybe yes. I don’t know why they do it sometimes. They might just think it’s technically correct, or for example jazz guitar players strumming accompaniment without melody often like to alter chords almost every beat so it’s useful to them. There is no absolute rule here.
 At the end of the day music is an art form with choices, it’s not math or science. You should not try to over analyze. Does it sound good is what matters.

[Fred Smith]

Unfortanely i don't understand this example yet : C/A ? and more
But if a melodynote is also a part of the chord , then a simpler chord notation can be done

Only if you’re using AI fingering. If you’re using normal fingering, you need the correct chord notated.

Cheers,
Fred

[EileenL]

Just imagine you are an organ player and have a set of bass pedals. Using different bass notes with chords enhances the overall sound to a piece. The cord of C will often have an E bass note played and sounds very nice indeed. If playing something like Whiter Shade of Pale the bass pattern can be used by using AI fingering and really makes the song.

[mikf]

Fred
I am not referring to the AI ability to deduce chords the chord by rh  notes, but simply the fact that the harmony note is already being played, so there is little or no gain in  the effect if adding it also in the lh chord. Doesn’t matter if it is AI mode or not.  That would not be true for a slash chord where the effect is from the bass, but it’s largely true for extended chords.

[janamdo]

Just imagine you are an organ player and have a set of bass pedals. Using different bass notes with chords enhances the overall sound to a piece. The cord of C will often have an E bass note played and sounds very nice indeed. If playing something like Whiter Shade of Pale the bass pattern can be used by using AI fingering and really makes the song.

Thanks
Is it about adding a bass note to a chord then it becomes more clear
Then C/A makes sense
I will lolok at the example from Chris again, trying to get it clear what the idea here is

[Fred Smith]

I am not referring to the AI ability to deduce chords the chord by rh  notes, but simply the fact that the harmony note is already being played, so there is little or no gain in  the effect if adding it also in the lh chord. Doesn’t matter if it is AI mode or not.  That would not be true for a slash chord where the effect is from the bass, but it’s largely true for extended chords.

I disagree.

Suppose the melody note is A, and the chord is C6. You’re saying there’s no difference between play a C chord, or a C6 chord. But there is a difference. A C6 chord provides a fuller sound.

Cheers,
Fred

[mikf]

Fred - I dont disagree with you that it sometimes can make a difference to the sound and players should take account of that. Might depend on whether you have a left hand voice on or the construction of the style. And certainly no reason not to double up on notes where you think it makes a difference to the fullness of the sound. But its horses for courses and bear in mind I was giving advice here to someone who is very much a novice and getting himself tied in knots about fancy chords - what they mean and how to play them. He is probably months - or maybe years - away from worrying about this. 
For myself I play 6th and 7th chords all the time almost as a matter of course, for the sound it provides, even if the melody notes doubles up, or when not actually called for by the music. But probably would not bother too much with 9ths and 11ths especially where the melody covered it because that seldom makes a noticeable difference. The flattened extensions I find make a big difference though and I usually try to catch those, although often in the rh rather than the lh. Being a two handed player makes most of these extended chords much easier to handle. 
Mike

[overover]

@janamdo
Hi Jan,

for better understanding, I have edited my post above.


Best regards,
Chris

[janamdo]

@janamdo
Hi Jan,

for better understanding, I have edited my post above.


Best regards,
Chris

Hi Chris,

I noticed it already your inprovements.
I seems to me that you first came up with piano voicing with rh and lh example without acmp
As second example using the acmp with ai fingered chords 
Best regards
Jan

[janamdo]

I can see that with playing the melody with different chords that doubling notes can occur
If i play a C triad (C-E-G )  with a B melody note  i hear a Cmaj7 chord

So you could notate this as a C  triad too , but  if you play the  Cmaj7 together with a B melody note , then it sounds different , because the B is doubled.

[andyg]

The musical theory behind not needing to double notes is sound and, if you dig into it, the 'rules' are quite complex as to what is 'right' or 'wrong'.

But in practice, and especially when related to playing arranger keyboard (or indeed it's 'daddy', the home organ) doubling of notes happens all the time and it does actually add quite a bit to the sound. It's also worth remembering that the doubled note in the melody is often just passing, whereas the chord may be held for a bar or more.

[tyrosman]

hi all AI is great and all you have to do is have alook at chord tutor on board it explains it there also i think people make it hard for themselfs when it is very easy to use i remember Richard bower showing me the easy way of AI and this can be found on the net also like andy says Jacki marsden done it in yamaha club magazine 

[janamdo]

Thanks
Now i have found the jacki marsden pdf from 2005.

[janamdo]

i think people make it hard for themselfs when it is very easy to use i remember Richard bower showing me the easy way of AI and this can be found on the net also like andy says Jacki marsden done it in yamaha club magazine 

That's the benefit of the AI fingering ofcourse: its easier for playing chords on the ACMP
But there is no info of all ins and outs of the AI fingering
Although there is a book Styles & Patterns

[theoutlaws]

with the left hand G as a bass tone
and take the right hand for the normal  A chord
that´s it!

[Fred Smith]

with the left hand G as a bass tone
and take the right hand for the normal  A chord
that´s it!

Except G/A is a G chord with an A bass, not A chord G bass. And how does it work if chording in the right hand doesn’t fit the melody?

Cheers,
Fred

[BartW]

I found, through trial and error, this way to play the G/A which also is pretty ergonomic and suitable for players with smaller hands.

So the way I think about it is naturally A in the bass. Then A# (which may be the "trigger" note letting the computer know that this meant to be a slash chord), and then simply G in 1st inversion.

This logic seems to work for all slash chords: Play bass with the pinky along with half step up from bass note, and then with remaining 3 fingers, play the main chord in 1st inversion.

I have the Genos set-up in AI Fingered.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[PhotoDoc05]

BartW, and Dromeus,
Thanks for the tip!  Yes, using First inversion is a very good point for AI Fingered.

Gmaj  --- BDG
G/D    --- DG
G/B    --- BG
G/A    ---  AA#BDG

Works exactly like that on SX-900. A little awkward for G/A, but that's how it works.
Jerry

[janamdo]

Thanks
Works the same as for the SX600.
But this chord G/A and with some other bass notes not belonging to the triad G , makes this musical sense for the ACMP ?
Yes, i do see here a songexample of a descending bass chord progression as a AI chord exercise 
The bass is descending from C - B- A-G- F  in a serie of chords with bass notes not belonging to the chords
C-C/B -Am-Am/G-F- D/ F#-G-G7/F

Note: C/B needs only note c and below note B, why is C/A so difficult ?..no its different in the example:  C/B is CM7/B
But that is also good a Ctriad with a addded seventh note
Jan

[panos]

For the sheettwriter to use an G/A chord seems that he wants to create tension and the next chord will be release or a "walking" bass or something.
If I am not mistaken,when a whole orchestra(or band) involved (as it happens with the styles),
usually G is the chord that the orchestra will play, while only the bass player will play the A note.
In which piece of music did you see that chord type so maybe we can understand why he is using the G/A symbol?

All types, either G/A or Gsus2 or Gadd9 (A note=2nd note or 9th note in the scale of G) are telling you that you will need the A note along with two notes of the G chord at least.

Maybe the sheet music indicates that the left hand is playing just the two notes G3 and A2 which is not even a chord but just a part of some chord (In that case we have to replace this part with an actual chord type that sounds good).

In any case, I wouldn't worry in your place if I would see the G/A or any other "weird" chord name.
Just look what are the notes of the left hand are if it is a piano sheet, what are the notes of the melody and of course use your eras.
The important thing is not to create disharmony for no reason.

[janamdo]

In which piece of music did you see that chord type so maybe we can understand why he is using the G/A symbol?

Thanks
It was a question from someone else ( see first post )
But a descending bass with the AI fingering can be done with two fingers , but there is then no freedom of choosing a own chord
CM7/B - B/A-A/G-G/F- FM7/E-E/D-D/C....

[maartenb]

C/B needs only note c and below note B, why is C/A so difficult ?

Because the notes a - c would be interpret as Am.


This is the way I look at the chord modes:

Fingered mode is based on musical notes played. The ACMP interprets every played note as part of the chord and/or bass.

• Pros: It's easy to play, because you can use chord inversions and therefore your hand doesn't need to jump around as much. You can play the exact left hand notes on a piano and it will sound musically correct.
• Cons: Some songs played this way will sound different from the original, when a song uses slash chords.

Fingered on Bass mode is still based on musical notes played.

• Pros: You can play some slash chords and sound more like the original song. You can still play the exact left hand notes on a piano and it will sound musically correct.
• Cons: Your hand has to move more when you play non-slash chords in succession.

AI Fingered mode is a combination of musical notes and "instructional" notes played. Sometimes notes are meant to be part of the chord and/or bass, and sometimes they are only meant to give the ACMP an instruction (and therefore make no musical sense).

• Pros: You can play chord inversions and most slash chords. You can also play additional chords that are impossible with the other two modes. You will not have the same musical freedom as an organ, but you do have the most freedom possible on a keyboard.
• Cons: A bit harder to learn, because you have to learn the "instructional" notes. You canNOT use the exact left hand notes on a piano, since the instructional notes are not meant to be played with a sound.

Maarten

[maartenb]

why is C/A so difficult ?

I am just very grateful that I can play a C/A chord at all!

As far as I know, C/A is impossible to play on other brand keyboards.


Maarten

[mikf]

Arrangers have limitations, and you can't do everything. The AI mode is a way to remove some of the limitations, but it still can't do everything and there are definite trade offs. That is not unique to arrangers, all musical instruments have limitations, - try playing bagpipes!
Mike 

[PhotoDoc05]

Because the notes a - c would be interpret as Am.


This is the way I look at the chord modes:

Maarten,
Thanks, I like the way you have categorized the chord modes, but still a little puzzled by "instructional" notes to the ACMP.
Could you give us an example to explain what instructional notes do, a little further?
Jerry