Author Topic: Re mix  (Read 1455 times)

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Offline mikf

Re mix
« on: April 03, 2020, 10:42:53 PM »
Can anyone tell me how I re-mix a midi I recorded and save it with the new mix? Or can I re-mix it as I convert to audio?
Mike
 

Offline mikf

Re: Re mix
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2020, 10:50:51 PM »
No-one ??
Is that maybe because itís not possible?
Mike
 

Offline overover

Re: Re mix
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2020, 11:32:37 PM »
Can anyone tell me how I re-mix a midi I recorded and save it with the new mix? Or can I re-mix it as I convert to audio?
Mike

Hi Mike,

please read page 72 in the CVP-705 Reference Manual: Chapter 1 > Creating/Editing MIDI Songs (Song Creator) > Channel Edit > Setup

(in CVP-605 Reference Manual it is page 70)

After re-mixing a MIDI file, open "Song Creator > Channel Edit" and press "Setup" button. Checkmark the items of playback features and functions that you wish to automatically be called up along with the selected Song.

NOTE: Before executing the Setup operation, move the Song position to the top of the Song by pressing the SONG [STOP] button.


Hope this helps!

Best regards,
Chris
« Last Edit: April 04, 2020, 11:38:25 PM by overover »
Everyone always said: This is not possible! - Then someone came and ... just did it!
 

Offline mikf

Re: Re mix
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2020, 01:10:32 AM »
Chris
Thanks for your reply but still not seeing what I do. I had read that section of the reference manual several times and already have volume checked in the set up (in fact it is a default) but I am still not sure how to do what I want. I am trying to mix all the channels ie vary the volumes of each channel on the mixer through the song, while it plays, just as you would on a studio mix desk at final mix. 
Mike
 

Offline mikf

Re: Re mix
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2020, 03:23:36 PM »
I feel certain that I could do this on my old 3k, although my memory is a bit hazy, because I also had a Tacscam recording studio as well then, so mostly used it to final mix, because the 3k could not handle audio recording.
 I certainly just can't see how to d it on the CVP. To get it to remember the variable mixer settings I need to have it on record, but if I have it on record I would then overwrite every channel and erase everything. What am I missing? Or is it just not possible? Maybe I need to use extenal software like audacity?
Mike 
 

Offline overover

Re: Re mix
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2020, 04:07:58 PM »
Hi Mike,

in principle, it should be the same as on PSR or Tyros models. Only the user interface is different.

Unfortunately, in the CVP Reference Manual some details of the Song Creator / Setup screen are missing.

I do not have a CVP of the 600/700 series, but I guess in the Setup screen you have similar options as on PSR or Tyros models.

Please try the following steps:

- Load a MIDI file ("Song") and make the desired changes in the Mixer (e.g. revoicing channels, volumes, effects settings).

- Press SONG STOP button to go to the beginning of the Song.

- Open "Song Creator > Channel Edit" and press "Setup" button.

- Now you should see several checkboxes and an "Execute" button.

- Make sure to have ticked ALL boxes that belong to the "Song" groop.

- The other boxes (e.g. "Keyboard Voice") should NOT be ticked.

- Press "Execute" button to apply the made changes to the Song (inside the internal Song RAM).

- Now SAVE the Song as a file on the desired drive (USB stick or User drive). To prevent overwriting your previous MIDI file, type in a new (or altered) file name during the saving process.

- Load the NEW MIDI file. The Song should contain the changes you made before.


Good luck!

Best regards,
Chris

« Last Edit: April 05, 2020, 04:49:15 PM by overover »
Everyone always said: This is not possible! - Then someone came and ... just did it!
 

Offline mikf

Re: Re mix
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2020, 05:16:10 PM »
Chris - Thanks for taking the time to try and help. What you suggested is pretty much what I have been doing without success, but to be sure I went through the steps you listed meticulously, but it still did not work. It retained the settings I had at the start of the song, but did not have the live changes through the song.   
I am either missing something completely, or it just is not possible on a CVP, which I find hard to believe. It's a bit frustrating, and the manual is completely missing anything about this. The reference manual on song recording deals almost exclusively with step recording, and the owners manual is pretty sketchy on detail beyond basic operation.
My dealer is closed due to the Covid situation, but they would not be helpful anyway. They are very nice, and try, but I know more than they do on these keyboards!
I might try to contact Yamaha, although I suspect they may also be down to bare minimum staff.
I know I can probably do this by recording to something external like audacity on my laptop and playing with the mixer live as it records, but I have sound on 14 channels and that is a bit difficult. The mixer on the CVP only lets you see 8 of them at a time.
 I got rid off the 3k, mixers, and Tascam because I ( and maybe more accurately, my wife)  got fed up with wires running everywhere, so not keen to go back to that as my CVP is in one of the nicer rooms.   
Mike 
 

Offline jwyvern

Re: Re mix
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2020, 06:14:34 PM »
 
Mike,
The procedure given by  Chris is the usual one for saving changes to Mixer settings.
But I believe from what you have posted you want to go further than that to intermittently edit and save the changes to a number of channels throughout the song. I may be wrong but I'm not sure you can achieve this on any keyboard post midi (unless perhaps you make changes as you record) in which case it may have to be done with the help of a DAW.

John
« Last Edit: April 05, 2020, 06:28:57 PM by jwyvern »
 

Offline mikf

Re: Re mix
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2020, 06:39:15 PM »
John
Yes, that is what I want to do. I thought I used to do that on my 3k but it was a long time ago and I may remember wrongly.
It does seem like a shortcoming in multi track recording though if it is not possible because you always need a final mix when multi tracking.
Mike
 

Offline panos

Re: Re mix
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2020, 08:31:14 PM »
Hi Mike,
I just tried to see if it is possible on my psr s but I couldn't find an easy solution.
I tried to use a recording feature of the Song Creator that let the previous recorded data remain on the channels while you can add new ones while the midi is playing and records at the same time.
Of course I didn't wanted to add new notes to the midi, just to mess around with the mixer effects and volumes.
But unfortunately it didn't work and just saved the very last data I have changed(the last amount of volumes/effects for each channel).

If there is just a couple of stuff to change,you can do it live manually on the keyboard while the midi is playing and you record it as a .wav with the audio recording.
But if there are more things to change this solution is not good.
Anyway,in this case you have to press the "A" button (at least on my psr) to change the Mixing Cosnsole screen between channels 1-8 and 9-16.But you have just one successful shot for all the changes while the midi is playing.

Another solution maybe it is the Mix Master while the program will not loose the voices/effects of the keyboard although I did not have to use it and don't know if this easy to do it there or not.
And then put back the midi on the keyboard,after the changes and record a wav.

I think that on the keyboard what you ask can be done only on the Edit tab of the Song Creator while we can add new commands(change volumes/effects on specific channels and timing) but this kind of job look pretty hard!
« Last Edit: April 05, 2020, 08:36:19 PM by panos »
 

Offline mikf

Re: Re mix
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2020, 10:45:55 PM »
I spent a lot of time trying to figure this out because I just didn't believe that it could not be done, or that it hadn't been raised before. When you make multi track recordings you ALWAYS need a final mix, so I felt that there had to be a way.
But it seems not. I have sent the question to Yamaha support. Let's see what they say.
Mike
 

Offline mikf

Re: Re mix
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2020, 11:33:04 PM »
Well the good news i that I got a very prompt reply from Yamaha support. However, the bad news is that it is not possible to re=mix a song on the keyboard.
To me this seems like  bit of an omission because the keyboard is sold as having multi track recording capability and it is a normal part of multi track recording work flow to do a final mix down. In fact, when I am recording multi tracks, I always deliberately set the volume of the part I am recording a bit high, so I can clearly hear it over the other tracks that are playing, even where I know I want it to merge into the mix, because I assume that I can re- balance everything at the end.
I really though that I could do this on my old 3k, but I could be wrong because I also had a Tascam recording desk at the time. I got rid of all that along with all the messy wiring which made the room look like a workshop a few years ago, assuming I could do everything I needed self contained on the new CVP, including final mixing and audio conversion. I hadn't bothered much with multi track recording recently, but now I am in lock down, my interest has revived :D. bUt I have hit this problem.
Maybe someone can recommend a simple alternative route. The problem I see is that if I use computer software like MixPad I am no longer hearing or saving the great CVP keyboard voices, but the substitute midi sounds on the computer. Maybe the only way is to make an audio recording using Audacity or similar by connecting the CVO to to my laptop. Then I can play the midi on the keyboard, get the keyboard voices, while I sit live at the mixing desk on the keyboard, adjusting on the fly. But the trouble with that is that you have to get it all right at once, you cannot get it right a couple of tracks at a time.
Any thoughts??
Mike   
 

Offline panos

Re: Re mix
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2020, 08:54:07 PM »
Hi again Mike,
I don't know how many things you have to change, neither I have extensive knowledge of altering midi files (although all my covers are recorded as midi's and not as wav files)
but I don't see any new proposals so I will try to give some thoughts.

Trying to equalize the midi on the keyboard:
a) Change the EQ settings of the keyboard to something that would sound nicer to a computer and not on the keyboard (Give a little more treble and bass)

b) Play the midi and adjust all the volumes of all channels one by one while you are listening to the midi by calling the Mixing Console.
If there is a need play it again a second time,the previous changes will remain.
After you finish press Stop.
Then enter Song Creator-Channel-Set up-Execute-Save.

c) Do the same but not with the Volumes this time but the other tabs of the Mixing Cosole and effects like Harmonic,Brightness,Eq High and low for each channel.
Don't forget the pan of each channel.
The channels should not be in the center.A little to the left or right and not at the same positions so we can hear each channel more clearly.
Then again enter Song Creator-Channel-Set up-Execute-Save.

d)I believe your real problem will be the Right and Left hand voice volumes.
The same volume level for all the four different right 1 voices you may used, is not good at all.
You can enter Song Creator to the tab "1-16" and there you can see the volumes of Channel 1 voices(Right 1).
You can change the volumes of each note one by one or select a bunch of them by selecting the multi select icon+ letter A(letters J+A)
If you don't know what to change,you can go up and down and listen to the notes by pressing B (going down) and A (going up).
You will also need to press the D,E and Data Select buttons to select the volume of the notes and not change something else.

You can do the same with channel 2(right 2) voices and channel 4(left) voices.
Every little while ,press save so not to make any critical mistakes and have to start over again.

There is also a SySex comand that you can apply at specific timings of the midi so it can change the volumes as you wish but better not talk about it right now.

I hope someone may help with the midi cables (Midi in and Midi out settings-you will need 2 cables)
if you wish to make this kind of changes with one of the midi programs of the PSR tutorial main page on the pc but you can be able to listen to the results live on the keyboard with it's voices and not on the pc with the generic/standard voices.

http://www.jososoft.dk/yamaha/software.htm
http://www.jososoft.dk/yamaha/more_software.htm

If you use a DAW or any other midi program,forget about the voices of the CVP.
You will need to change the voices to something from your pc (along with the note lengths,timings etc)

Of course you may already know all these things but maybe they will be useful to others with a model with an on board Song Creator.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2020, 09:03:01 PM by panos »
 

Offline mikf

Re: Re mix
« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2020, 09:44:01 PM »
Panos
Thanks for trying to help.
 Its not really a RH , LH thing. This is not a conventional arranger type recording of RH melody and LH style.
I have recorded 7 different voice channels into the arrangement as well as several style channels, a lot of channels. The default channel for the main RH voice is channel 1, but you can direct it to any channel, and by doing this build a complex multi track arrangement, one part at a time. You do that by directing the RH part you are recording into the selected channel.
The mix is a a dynamic thing, where I want to sit and listen to the whole and finely adjust every channel to get the best balance eg I may have recorded a piano part on one channel but want the volume of it to be different at different parts of the song. Of course, I could have done that as I recorded that part, but until you finish the whole arrangement and hear all the parts, you don't really know the fine detail of the balance of all the parts of the song.
I think I will end up playing the midi to the computer with the mixer up live. Adjusting each channel in real time as it records audio on the computer. Not ideal, but easier and quicker than some of the other methods.
What is disappointing is that this would all be so easy and quick if had just allowed mixer settings to be memorized in real time at final mix.
Mike 
 

Offline EileenL

Re: Re mix
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2020, 12:35:15 PM »
I think the only way you will do this is to go into song edit and alter each track to the volume you require separately. I know it takes longer but is the best way to go. You don't say what piano you have but on the latest 800 series You will go into song creator after loading your song and at the top of the screen select Step Record. This will then give you access to the 16 tracks one at a time. Just tab up or down until you see Volume and alter it to your liking. You can play the song back at any time whilst doing this to see if it is what you want. When you have it as you want it don't forget to save. Whilst in the control tracks you can alter a lot of other functions such as Pan, Reverb, DSP and others.
.

Offline overover

Re: Re mix
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2020, 03:02:45 PM »
Hi Mike,

if you have only one Voice per Channel ("Track") in a MIDI file, you CAN use the MIXER to adjust all the Channel Volumes (or change some Voices and / or Effect settings). Finally go to "Song Creator > Channel Edit > Setup" and save the file again (as mentioned in my Reply #5).

If you have more the one Voice per Channel (this will be the case if you switched the Keyboard Voices by changing Registrations while recording), you can adjust the Volume of the Voices in STEP RECORDING (as mentioned by Eileen before). The Volume events are "Ctrl 7" events. Just be sure that these Control Change events are not filtered out by the "Event Filter".


Best regards,
Chris
« Last Edit: April 08, 2020, 03:04:15 PM by overover »
Everyone always said: This is not possible! - Then someone came and ... just did it!
 

Offline mikf

Re: Re mix
« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2020, 10:55:46 PM »
Thank you Eileen - will try this. BTW, I have a 705 and a 605, but I am on the 705 at this time.
Chris, - I dont think that what you suggest can achieve what I am trying to do. It would only allow setting the volume of each channel as a single point setting. I need to be able to vary the volume continuously as needed at different points in the song.  This can be done of course at the time of recording the individual track, and I do this to some extent. But it's never perfect because until the tracks are all laid down and the arrangement comes together, you cannot exactly hear what volume you will need from each individual track at every point in the arrangement.
Mike
 

Offline mikf

Re: Re mix
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2020, 11:57:44 PM »
Eileen
I am afraid the screens on the 705 do not have the the options you mention. There is no top option for step record. I can get to another screen that allows step record to be selected but there is no volume adjustment, and even if there was this is purely a step record data entry screen. Ie you input a number for each note event.
As I said before, I donít think there is any way to do a genuine channel volume adjust other than when recording the channel. You cannot do a post record mix and save it. The Yamaha tech confirmed this. Yes you can alter the volume of the complete channel, but you cannot then vary the volume as the song plays and save it.
Mike