Author Topic: Can you search for a style in particular time signature?  (Read 1564 times)

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Offline Nessa

Can you search for a style in particular time signature?
« on: March 01, 2020, 06:12:05 PM »
Hi folks,

Does anyone know if it is possible to search for a style in a particular time signature on the Genos? I am currently looking for a 2/2 style that will be a good match for a song that I am working on.

This can easily be done on the Tyros 4 via searching within the Music Finder and selecting 'beat, but I am unable to find this feature or similar on the Genos.

Any help would be most appreciated!

Many thanks - Ness
My warm regards....Ness
 

Offline Fred Smith

Re: Can you search for a style in particular time signature?
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2020, 09:45:36 PM »
Hi folks,

Does anyone know if it is possible to search for a style in a particular time signature on the Genos? I am currently looking for a 2/2 style that will be a good match for a song that I am working on.

This can easily be done on the Tyros 4 via searching within the Music Finder and selecting 'beat, but I am unable to find this feature or similar on the Genos.

Any help would be most appreciated!

No. Only by the name of the style (for now). Maybe in a future update.

Fred
Fred Smith,
Saskatoon, SK
Sun Lakes, AZ
Genos, Bose L1 compacts, Finale 2015
Check out my Registration Lessons
 

Offline Nessa

Re: Can you search for a style in particular time signature?
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2020, 08:27:43 AM »
Thanks Fred,

It is as I feared! :(  This is certainly a very useful feature when looking for time signatures other than 4/4.
My warm regards....Ness
 

Offline Patt22

 
The following users thanked this post: frozzers

Offline frozzers

Re: Can you search for a style in particular time signature?
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2020, 12:53:53 PM »
Patrick

Thanks very much for that link.

Didn't know that program existed until now!

Cheers

Chris
 

Offline Nessa

Re: Can you search for a style in particular time signature?
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2020, 01:01:33 PM »
Many thanks for the link also.

It does seem rather odd to me to have lost such a very useful feature on the latest Yamaha 'flagship' keyboard!?
My warm regards....Ness
 

Offline mikf

Re: Can you search for a style in particular time signature?
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2020, 03:57:14 PM »
It is odd, but on the other hand searching by time signature might not be as useful as it first appears because of the way many styles are written. Yamaha uses 4/4 to write some 6 /8 and 12/8 styles and maybe even 2/4. So divided by time signature so many might show as 4/4. It does work for finding 3/4 though.
 

Offline Murat

Re: Can you search for a style in particular time signature?
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2020, 05:01:24 PM »
I would love it if it was possible to do a time-sugnature search. I think this depends on how we all play the keyboard. For me this would be very useful. For examply, if I am looking for a 3/4, I could find all that has the 3/4 time signature rather than simply searching for Waltz and miss half of the other 3/4 styles perhaps with not obvious names.

Offline mikf

Re: Can you search for a style in particular time signature?
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2020, 05:33:43 PM »
Yes, but my point is that 3/4 is about all it would work for, because so many of the others are 4/4.
 

Offline Nessa

Re: Can you search for a style in particular time signature?
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2020, 06:19:36 PM »
A 2/4 and a 4/4 time signature are quite different, and trying to adapt a 4/4 style to 'fit' a piece of music that is written as 2/4 can often present problems - and so to be able to find a dedicated style is very useful. And there are several styles on the T4 that may certainly appear to be 4/4, but are actually 2/4 styles.

I hope this explains a little about what I mean (but please do forgive me if I am trying to tell granny how to suck eggs!  ::) :-\ )

A piece with a time signature of 4/4 has four quarter note beats -  each measure of 2/4 time has two quarter note beats.

In 2/2 time, the half note gets one beat, and there are two beats to a bar. The first beat gets the emphasis, and the second beat is the weaker one. The resulting accent pattern of one-two is reminiscent of a ticking clock, or a march. It is sometimes also referred to as cut time.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2020, 06:36:49 PM by Nessa »
My warm regards....Ness
 

Offline mikf

Re: Can you search for a style in particular time signature?
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2020, 07:09:28 PM »
Nessa
Yes, I know all about time signatures. But my point is that Yamaha often make other time signature styles based on 4/4,  so 4/4 is then what shows in the  time signature box, even if the description is quite different. So if you listed them by the time signature some may show up in the wrong place, and there would be so many 4/4 that it might not be much help. I haven't done a survey recently to see if this is still the case, but it has been brought up many times on the forum in the past about Yamaha styles, especially 6/8 and 12/8.

Mike
 

Offline Nessa

Re: Can you search for a style in particular time signature?
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2020, 07:58:23 PM »
Hi Mike,

If you search on the T4 for 2/4 styles, it will bring up all styles that are based on a 2/4 beat even though it is not noted as such on the style. So they appear to be 4/4 but have a 2/4 beat and so come up in the search. For example - Mexican Dance & Ober Polka (World) Bluegrass (Country) etc.
My warm regards....Ness
 

Offline Jørgen

Re: Can you search for a style in particular time signature?
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2020, 10:04:22 PM »
Hi

There is mostly no data about style time signature inside the bytes of a style file, except for 3/4 time.
Style files are basically MIDI files, and the MIDI specification assumes 4/4 as default time signature, when no other time signature is given.
This explains the problem of searching for other time signatures: There is no data...

Jørgen
PS: If tempo is undefined, the MIDI specification assumes 120 bpm as default.
PPS: And BTW there is no measure / bar information in the style either.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2020, 10:06:21 PM by Jørgen »
The Unofficial YAMAHA Keyboard Resource Site at http://www.jososoft.dk/yamaha
- since 1999
 

Offline mikf

Re: Can you search for a style in particular time signature?
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2020, 12:25:48 AM »
Nessa
Actually, I think you are right, the MusicFinder does sort styles based on their description no matter what data is actually in the file. I was thinking of the style creator. If you select a 12/8 style ( or a 2/4 or 6/8  ) and look at the style creator, you will see its listed as 4/4, unless as Jorgen says its a 3/4, in which case it is shown correctly. However, they do show 12/8 styles in the MF as 6/8 beat, dont know why. I think the count light also does 4 to the bar regardless of the time signature ( except for 3/4).
I guess its because time signatures are just as much about making music easy to read by dividing it up into chunks - bars - and passing information to the musician about the feel of the music. MIDI doesnt really need that because its just timed events.
Mike
 

Offline Pino

Re: Can you search for a style in particular time signature?
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2020, 01:40:02 AM »
I hope that Yamaha will,bring back the ‘music Finder’ and the ‘style repertoire’ with at least 10,000+ entries in the next model, after all, what we have is a style based computer with a keyboard controller attached to it.

Pino
SX900 - Ketron SD40 - Maui 5s
 

Offline Nessa

Re: Can you search for a style in particular time signature?
« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2020, 01:20:51 PM »
Thanks Mike,

My thread seems to be digressing a little from my original question, and I'm unable to comment on some of the above with having no in depth technical knowledge on style data etc.

But what I can say is when using the Music Finder search facility on my trusty old T4 to search for a particular beat, it will definitely bring up all styles in that beat. When 2/4 is selected several styles will show that appear as 4/4 with the beat counter operating as though it is 4/4.  But the 2/4 rhythm or beat emphasis is quite different in these styles. This is why on occasion I found it so very useful, hence my  question.

The answer here though does now seem to be a 'No' without the use of other software, which I find both surprising and very disappointing. Having had my Genos for a few weeks, I am certainly discovering many 'cons' alongside the 'pros'! .....so far....the Jury is still out!  :-\ :o

All the best - Ness

My warm regards....Ness
 

Offline Jørgen

Re: Can you search for a style in particular time signature?
« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2020, 02:56:50 PM »
Hi Nessa

Referring to my previous message:
In none-technical terms:
There is mostly no data about time signature in styles. Except for 3/4 time, and in some rare cases for other time signatures.

Jørgen
The Unofficial YAMAHA Keyboard Resource Site at http://www.jososoft.dk/yamaha
- since 1999
 

Offline BogdanH

Re: Can you search for a style in particular time signature?
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2020, 06:32:47 PM »
hi Jørgen,

I've read this thread several times just to be sure I understand what's about.. quite possible I still didn't get it  ???
...There is mostly no data about time signature in styles. Except for 3/4 time, and in some rare cases for other time signatures.
Now, that's quite opposite of my experience with styles. That is, so far every original Yamaha style that I have seen (from pack or from keyboard) has correct Time Signature. Can you clarify your claim above, please? Thank you!

Bogdan
(PSR-S670, PSR-S775) PSR-SX700

Digital Life
Modern Times
 

Offline panos

Re: Can you search for a style in particular time signature?
« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2020, 08:24:00 PM »
Hi Bogdan,
I think Jorgen and Mike are telling that if you look inside the style creator,styles like 6-8 Slow Rock or 12-8 Ballad and many more are shown as 4/4 beat styles, at least on the older keyboards.
The starting time of the individual notes and the midi patterns that Yamaha have chosen to create them,is really what making them sound like compound rhythms so there is not a special "data" inside those styles.

Seems like some people having trouble or don't have the time to find a suitable style for a song.
Others were searching for a record of the song in the Music Finder on their previous model and others are searching for a specific rhythm, so that's why they are asking for it I guess.
But I don't know if the MFD needs to use some bytes that needed for other stuff to be also included on the new models.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2020, 08:34:03 PM by panos »
 

Offline Jørgen

Re: Can you search for a style in particular time signature?
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2020, 09:11:50 PM »
hi Jørgen,

I've read this thread several times just to be sure I understand what's about.. quite possible I still didn't get it  ???Now, that's quite opposite of my experience with styles. That is, so far every original Yamaha style that I have seen (from pack or from keyboard) has correct Time Signature. Can you clarify your claim above, please? Thank you!

Bogdan

Hi
As we both know, styles are MIDI files + some data.
The MIDI specification says, that if no time signature is given then 4/4 time signature is assumed as a default value.

And that is why 4/4 is shown in keyboards, sequencer programs etc if no time signature is defined inside the style/MIDI file.

From section 2.2 in http://www.music.mcgill.ca/~ich/classes/mumt306/StandardMIDIfileformat.html
"All MIDI Files should specify tempo and time signature. If they don't, the time signature is assumed to be 4/4, and the tempo 120 beats per minute. "

Jørgen
The Unofficial YAMAHA Keyboard Resource Site at http://www.jososoft.dk/yamaha
- since 1999
 

Offline BogdanH

Re: Can you search for a style in particular time signature?
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2020, 09:39:33 PM »
@panos
yes, if that's the case (I wasn't sure), then looking only at style name really makes no sense for Time signature.. :)

@Jørgen
What I was saying is, most (at least all I have) styles actually do have proper (midi) Time signature -even 4/4 ones.

Bogdan
(PSR-S670, PSR-S775) PSR-SX700

Digital Life
Modern Times
 

Offline Nessa

Re: Can you search for a style in particular time signature?
« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2020, 09:51:09 PM »

Just to clarify - I personally found the MF on the T4 to be useful in using the search parameters to look for a particular beat other than 4/4 such as 2/4 (never used it for song titles or style name searches), and my question was to simply ask if  this feature is available on the Genos.

As noted above, sadly the answer is a 'no'.

My warm regards....Ness
 

Offline Dromeus

Re: Can you search for a style in particular time signature?
« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2020, 07:39:09 AM »
"All MIDI Files should specify tempo and time signature. If they don't, the time signature is assumed to be 4/4, and the tempo 120 beats per minute. "

This is correct, Jørgen, but Bogdan is right, too. All Yamaha styles do start with a Time Signature event, followed by a Tempo event. I've never seen an exception to that. As an example, attached is a list of the very first events in the PSR-2000 Style 6-8ModernEP.
Regards, Michael