Author Topic: Buying advice please  (Read 3812 times)

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Offline dtaylor

Buying advice please
« on: January 08, 2020, 03:55:00 AM »
Hi there, just joined and looking to buy a psr I think. More of a synth and computer chap really but I am attracted to the immediacy of arrangers when composing tunes etc. Home use only hobbyist and not had an arranger since my first ps10 in the 80s and later a pss790 which could multitrack record!

Currently thinking Psrsx700 or psrs670, into ballad easy pop styles mainly, like the chord looper on the sx900 but don't need the vocal harmony function. Might wait to see what namm brings as an upgraded 670 might be ideal. I'd like audio usb  as well as midi like my modx/mox/fa08, and wonder if any new arrangers may get this?

Any suggestions welcome, I could possibly push the boat out for a genos  but not sure I will make use of all the functions, although I want a high quality keeper to last many years.

Best David
 

Offline Pino

Re: Buying advice please
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2020, 04:30:11 AM »
Hi David
If your into ballads/easy pop then I would go for the SX range
Or even Genos but itís more than 2 times the price.

Take a listen to me playing SX live, programmed the OTS only.
Iím not a BigBand expert but the ballad sounds cool.

Song 1 - only on SX or Genos.
Song 2&3 - would sound just as good on any PSR
I play S910 sometimes, every bit as good as the SX in most songs but the SX has some cool vocal voices which is good for ballads.

Pino

https://app.box.com/s/uaaxthe9i5ci0qj5orwm4qedoj5fqwgr


SX900 - Ketron SD40 - Maui 5s
 
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Offline dtaylor

Re: Buying advice please
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2020, 05:27:33 AM »
Thanks. Is the looper worth it or can you make a similar effect with the sequencer, I like to build up arrangements from chord progressions but £700 more for just that seems too much tbh. I'll probably mainly use styles and thinking that even a s670 or used s770 would be more or less the same as the sx700 - is it?
 

Offline BogdanH

Re: Buying advice please
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2020, 09:30:14 AM »
Hi David,
My impression (from what you told) is, S670 could be more than enough for you. I had it and can honestly say, it's a darn good keyboard. Actually, it can do "99%" of whatever SX700 can do (that much about keyboards progress) and you can practically deliver almost the same result. That is, S670 is rational "common sense" decision. The question is, how important is "1%" difference for you?

In my eyes, main difference (in resulting performance) is:
1. S670 doesn't know "S.Art" voices. In my opinion, 90% of S.Art voices don't really sound that good in real use and I usually decide for some other voice type instead. But!.. the rest of 10% is quite amazing and can make difference in end result for sure.
2. S670 can "only" layer 2 voices for right hand (that is, by pressing on key, two instruments play), while SX700 can layer 3 voices. I mostly use one or max two voices at the same time (to avoid music being too "busy"). But for certain kind of music (i.e. heavy Classic orchestra, complex synth genre music, etc.) it could be a welcome feature.

As always, it's not only what you can do, but also "how" you can do it. And here S670 really can't compare to SX700. For an arranger, S670 just has too tiny screen to do "serious" work. Yes, everything can be done on it.. but is so uncomfortable. I see S670 ideal for beginners/students where they can learn and get the "taste" of arrangers.

S700/S775 vs SX700... Main advantage of SX700 is (as I see it): 3 layer voices, better panel buttons, bigger user memory and touch screen. And only because of touch screen, I wouldn't even consider S770/S775 (in case you wish to "dig" into arranging seriously). Yes, being the latest, SX700 is a long term decision.

Hope that is of some help.. think twice, buy once  :)
(PSR-S670, PSR-S775) PSR-SX700

Digital Life
Modern Times
 

Offline dtaylor

Re: Buying advice please
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2020, 11:29:18 AM »
Fabulous reply thanks so much Bogdan. Mirror's my thoughts really, I'm not worried about 2 or 3 voices on the right hand, nor the S. Art voices especially as I have a modx and vsts, and am good with chords and less good with complex melody and touch. The s670 is very good value at the moment, and I have a separate monitors and subwoofer so know it will sound great. Main issue with 670 is the memory for styles as I would like to fillup on easy pop and ballad styles, is one or other any better for 3rd party styles, and is 32mb enough in the 670?
 

Offline EileenL

Re: Buying advice please
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2020, 12:16:53 PM »
You will need a USB pen drive for most of your storage of styles etc.

Offline dtaylor

Re: Buying advice please
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2020, 12:42:42 PM »
Thanks Eileen, so you load styles direct from USB stick then into empty user style slots? If so what's the 32mb actually for is there a limit as to how many styles can be loaded at any one time?
Is the sx700 better or worse than previous models in loading styles from this site ie does the change in architecture matter much, or are all psrs affected to a greater or lesser extent?

So many questions! I'm leaning to the sx as I plan to keep it for a long time
 

Offline EileenL

Re: Buying advice please
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2020, 01:03:02 PM »
You use the styles straight from the USB stick which is your storage device. Most people only use the on board user as a work bench for editing things as it is very small and then saving to USB.
  The SX series is a more advanced keyboard with many of the Genos operations to set up. Also has three right hand voices and a touch screen.

Offline Graham UK

Re: Buying advice please
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2020, 01:10:44 PM »
dtaylor. Styles can be played direct from USB Stick so no need to load into the keyboard and take up USER Memory..

PS. Eileen post at same time.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2020, 01:12:10 PM by Graham UK »
T5 76 + NP30
 

Offline DerekA

Re: Buying advice please
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2020, 02:30:25 PM »
I would recommend SX700 over S670. You'll get more voices, more expansion memory, and the touch screen OS which is better than the cursor-driven OS on the S670.
Genos
 

Offline rcpilot

Re: Buying advice please
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2020, 02:58:36 PM »
I am home player too...played Organ for decades...Both Thomas and Yamaha.
I think your decision should HEAVILY weigh on Sound Quality, since you are used to Synthes, which usually are great in that area (I used to have Kurzweil).
I play mostly slower,slow  ballad, movie, big band,  standards, love songs etc...not much Rock etc...and I do not sing, so to me sounds quality is critical.

If you can afford the Genos...do it...if not go for SX-900.
That's my opinion anyways....
Lee

Yamaha SX-900, used to play Thomas and Yamaha Organ's
 

Offline dtaylor

Re: Buying advice please
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2020, 04:57:22 PM »
Thanks for your response, I've tried the genos and sx770 and s670 all on the same headphones, and I did get the impression that the genos was of higher sound quality which along with the styles are my main priorities. I will go back to my local store and try again, but will definitely either get an sx or a genos, as its a once in a decade type of purchase and hopefully will keep me entertained into my retirement which is less than 5 years away.

Final thought - how does a tyros 4 or 5 stack up against the sx models? Better to go with psr sx assuming similar costs?
« Last Edit: January 08, 2020, 05:03:39 PM by dtaylor »
 

Offline panos

Re: Buying advice please
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2020, 06:41:07 PM »
Hi David,

there is no limit in the styles a keyboard can play.They are stored in a usb stick so there is no problem with that.You can have thousands.

All models though have a limit of how many bytes a style could be.
I don't think that has ever documented from Yamaha this limit.
A usual/normal style is less than 100 kb.
But if you want to create a style that has e.g 32 bar intros(all 1-2-3 intros) and 32 bars endings(all 1-2-3 endings) etc with many effects then the keyboard may not be able to play it.(I have read in another post that someone could n't create such a style)
So it's rather extremely rare to run out of memory by creating a style.

Newer models have better equalization and re-voicing of styles, at least to the ears of some of us.
So maybe there is the same style in Tyros 4 and Genos but in Genos the style could sound just a little better although in that style they could use the same voice samples.
Maybe is something to do also with the speakers or the operation System of each model.
But all models of this range (psr s-tyros-genos) have a Mixing Console to re-voice and equalize and add effects to the style to your liking.

I have read that although an s670 has also style creator(very useful to create styles or even better to easily combine parts from different styles to create a new style) the way that it works because of the small screen is not that handy and there are some useful options missing.

I don't think that any Yamaha arranger can use an audio usb cable.Not even Genos.
Please someone corrects me if I am wrong.

A used s770/Tyros 4 could also be very useful to you,if the tyros 4 is in good shape but there is a limitation in it to load styles and sounds that use other than the preset voice samples(packs with styles/new sounds from yamaha musicsoft and other developers.
In Tyros 4 you can have just one pack but in Tyros 5,psr s770 and above you can have many packs installed using Yamaha Expansion Manager.Genos can load the most packs)
Yamaha Expansion Manager is pc program for creating new voice samples and drumkits so the keyboard can play them.
These new voices/drumkits are also useful to load new styles from Yamaha or style creators.

Also s975 is in good price now in stores(those which haven't sold them yet) but I have read that the keybed is kind of noisy.
 
I guess new s775's have "vanished" from stores and all have sold.

Between a new S670 and a used s770 I would definitely preferred the s770.
I believe is the best value for money model.You get great sounds and features.

Psrs S-Sx-Tyros have polyphony 128
Genos polyphony is (up to?) 256
Polyphony is good when you use use a bunch of effects is styles and voices all playing together.

Tyros-Genos have better keybeds than psr s-sx and "aftertouch" which in my opinion makes them sound really good.(There is nice decay of the sound when you release the notes)

Where did you see this 32mb style limit for the s670, Taylor?
Maybe this limit was reffering to something else like the user area limit?
(The limit of the internal area that we temporary save styles/midis/registrations,voices,multipads etc to work with them and then we transfer them to the usb stick or keep some "favorites" in that area to call them easilly).
« Last Edit: January 08, 2020, 06:52:02 PM by panos »
 
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Offline BogdanH

Re: Buying advice please
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2020, 07:10:07 PM »
..and is 32mb enough in the 670?..
Styles aren't really a problem as average style is about 60kB only (you can calc how many fit in user memory). The problem are voices, where a single voice can be 10MB (depends on complexity). That is, if you plan to use custom voices (which again are used in your custom styles), then 32MB obviously isn't enough .. except for learning.
The thing is, custom voices can't be used from USB directly, because voices as separate files don't exist. Voices can only be  inside expansion pack, which (bad news) can't be directly used on USB stick. Expansion pack must be imported in keyboard's user memory first -is the only way you can use custom voices.
However, if you plan only to "play with" customizing styles (where built-in voices will be used most of the time), then 32MB is plenty. So, it really depends... My personal opinion is: keyboard has many VERY good voices already built in and unless you're some "pro", I can hardly imagine you really "need" more. As you can see it all depends on how far you plan to push your keyboard.

Bogdan
(PSR-S670, PSR-S775) PSR-SX700

Digital Life
Modern Times
 
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Offline EileenL

Re: Buying advice please
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2020, 11:21:25 PM »
The SX700 keybed is much better now and dose not rattle any more like the previous PRS series.

Offline dtaylor

Re: Buying advice please
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2020, 02:35:48 AM »
Thanks again all, I'm getting more interested in exploring arrangers now so will limit my choice to psr sx, s770 and better, and possibly Genos as I definitely only want to buy once. The user memory is important for futureproofing
 

Offline EileenL

Re: Buying advice please
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2020, 01:33:10 PM »
I believe the User memory on the SX700 is 1Gb on the SX900 it is 4Gb and on Genos it is 58Gb.
  Best to use USB storage on the SX. I use a 32Gb mini USB on my SX900 and then back it up on my computer as I add to it.

Janus

  • Guest
Re: Buying advice please
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2020, 01:47:51 PM »
The SX700 keybed is much better now and dose not rattle any more like the previous PRS series.
Except the psr9000pro
It got metal selfcleaning spring contacts
Much beter then the rubberstrips in the tyros
You find those also in toy piano's
After a  few years the rubber dry's out and need to be replaced
I got the psr9000pro from the beginning and use it as a masterkeyboard with my Tyros 5
 

Offline BogdanH

Re: Buying advice please
« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2020, 03:56:13 PM »
I believe the User memory on the SX700 is 1Gb ...
Yes, that's "user" internal memory. However, for expansion packs only ~400MB is available (~1GB on SX900).
Yamaha should be ashamed being so skimpy with user memory nowadays -considering 32GB SD card is only ~10bucks retail!.

Bogdan
(PSR-S670, PSR-S775) PSR-SX700

Digital Life
Modern Times
 

Offline EileenL

Re: Buying advice please
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2020, 04:58:21 PM »
I don't find any problem using USB for my storage and we have two ports on the SX900.

Offline rcpilot

Re: Buying advice please
« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2020, 05:59:51 PM »
Yes I use the USB ...and it works with my USB hard drive too...I think it is a 500 GB.
I was kind of surprised, but it works fine.
Lee
Yamaha SX-900, used to play Thomas and Yamaha Organ's
 

Re: Buying advice please
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2020, 12:15:32 PM »
I don't think that any Yamaha arranger can use an audio usb cable.Not even Genos.
Please someone corrects me if I am wrong.

Most of the current entry-level Yamaha keyboards have USB audio, such as the PSR-E463, PSR-E363, PSR-EW410. The predecessors of these keyboards did have that feature as well.
 

Offline DerekA

Re: Buying advice please
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2020, 12:56:49 PM »
Most of the current entry-level Yamaha keyboards have USB audio, such as the PSR-E463, PSR-E363, PSR-EW410. The predecessors of these keyboards did have that feature as well.

They can save audio to USB as a WAV file, but that's not the same thing.

USBAudio means transferring the live audio signal in a digital format across USB straight into a computer, probably to use with a DAW program like Cubase.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2020, 12:57:58 PM by DerekA »
Genos
 

Re: Buying advice please
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2020, 01:50:52 PM »
Sorry, you're wrong. They do STREAM audio over USB in both directions. PSR-SX and GENOS, which are several times as expensive as the E-models, can't do this. Weird, but true.
 

Offline DerekA

Re: Buying advice please
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2020, 02:38:54 PM »
Sorry, you're wrong. They do STREAM audio over USB in both directions. PSR-SX and GENOS, which are several times as expensive as the E-models, can't do this. Weird, but true.

Oh - OK, I didn't know that.
Genos
 

Janus

  • Guest
Re: Buying advice please
« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2020, 03:48:01 PM »
Sorry, you're wrong. They do STREAM audio over USB in both directions. PSR-SX and GENOS, which are several times as expensive as the E-models, can't do this. Weird, but true.
Psr-sx and Genos are keyboards use for life play
That's why they are not digital
Studio's using digital sampler and modulles
 

Offline dtaylor

Re: Buying advice please
« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2020, 05:05:10 PM »
Makes sense looking at it that way. I really want a studio arranger and the only advanced feature that appeals is the chord looper, any other way if achieving that without buying a psr sx900?
 

Offline Brian 007

Re: Buying advice please
« Reply #27 on: January 10, 2020, 05:46:20 PM »
Hi,

You should be able to step record the chord sequences you want on the PSR SX700 with out the need for the chord looper which I think is more for live paying

Brian007
 

Offline dtaylor

Re: Buying advice please
« Reply #28 on: January 10, 2020, 06:07:31 PM »
So I am able to record a chord progression from a style to the sequencer and then play it back over and over whilst jamming with say a piano tone?
 

Offline Marty

Re: Buying advice please
« Reply #29 on: January 10, 2020, 10:27:40 PM »
Hi You may find this YouTube video helpful.

https://youtu.be/J4uEfFVPQsg
 
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Offline dtaylor

Re: Buying advice please
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2020, 07:52:53 AM »
Thanks that's very helpful looks much easier and more immediate than using my modx. Wasn't planning on spending so much but as a one off purchase its probably better than buying and selling. As a songwriting tool then, is the Genos better again?
 

Offline panos

Re: Buying advice please
« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2020, 08:46:42 AM »
May I ask something?
The SX 900 has the chord looper so you can record some chords with the style and then you can play a melody or whatever with the pre-recorded chords without stopping.
The SX 700 does not have a chord looper,right?
So in that case you have to record a midi song using the song creator and then playback that midi chord sequence over and over again.
That not so...."beloved" intro counting of the metronome before a midi song starts it's loop is it still present on the SX 700.SX 900 and Genos?

For helping Dtaylor,our arrangers (psr S/Tyros/SX/Genos) they can record up to 16 midi channels on board the same way you can record midi channels on a DAW using a style either by step recording or by live playing with just one take. 
The problem with the looping of that midi recording was that metronome counting before the midi song starts for educational reasons so to give the player the feeling of the correct tempo when he wants to play along with a midi song.

Midi recording channels(when you press "record" on the midi section they triggered automatically by the keyboard)

Channel 1   :   Right 1
Channel 2   :   Left
Channel 3   :   Right 2
Channel 4   :   Right 3
Channel 5   :   Multi Pad 1
Channel 6   :   Multi Pad 2
Channel 7   :   Multi Pad 3
Channel 8   :   Multi Pad 4
Channel 9   :   Rhythm 1
Channel 10 :   Rhythm 2
Channel 11 :   Bass
Channel 12 :   Chord 1
Channel 13 :   Chord 2
Channel 14 :   Pad
Channel 15 :   Phrase 1
Channel 16 -   Phrase 2

Then you can change?add/delete "stuff" in them, like equalize the channels better,add/delete/correct notes,change voice for a channel etc.
The only thing you cannot do is change a wrong chord.(Takes several....weeks  ;D )
« Last Edit: January 11, 2020, 08:59:31 AM by panos »
 

Re: Buying advice please
« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2020, 01:35:11 PM »
So I am able to record a chord progression from a style to the sequencer and then play it back over and over whilst jamming with say a piano tone?

With the SX700, you can record your chord accompaniment in real time or via step recording (not recommended as this is extremely cumbersome and limited). Then you have to navigate to the playback page. Here you can set two song markers to define the looping area. As soon as you switch the "Loop" button on, the recorded accompaniment will be repeated smoothly and without the annoying metronome count-in. The marker positions can be stored in the registration, the status of the Loop button unfortunately not.

 
 

Offline dtaylor

Re: Buying advice please
« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2020, 03:25:13 PM »
That works for me, I guess that's a common feature across mosr of the psr s range?
 

Offline dtaylor

Re: Buying advice please
« Reply #34 on: January 14, 2020, 03:39:00 PM »
Took the plunge and ordered an sx700 which has arrived today, going to keep it in its box until Friday to see if anything better comes out of namm but I doubt it, very excited to start my psr adventure!

Thanks for all the helpful advice
Best David
 

Offline Toril S

Re: Buying advice please
« Reply #35 on: January 14, 2020, 03:55:29 PM »
You have the self restraint to keep a brand new keyboard in its BOX till friday??? WOW!
Toril S

Genos, Tyros 5, PSR S975, PSR 2100
and PSR-47.
Former keyboards: PSR-S970.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLVwWdb36Yd3LMBjAnm6pTQ?view_as=subscriber



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