Topic: Issues with changing OTS.....

[rcpilot]

OK, So I have been spending time with the SX900.
When I change to a different style part (A-B ect) AND I hold the RH not(s) I get a bad change over to the new sound right away. In other words the SX does NOT wait until I release all RH notes before changing sounds. Sometimes it results in a very bad sound and not even the next OTS , just a loud sounds of the one I was on.

I have looked in the menu system for an option on this and didn't find one....that is to wait until ALL RH notes are released before changinging the sounds.

This can't be right...how would you hold a not that is TIED into the next measure , but change the rhythm on the downbeat??

This is pretty basic....
Thanks for any help/suggestions.
_________________________
Lee

[Fred Smith]

OK, So I have been spending time with the SX900.
When I change to a different style part (A-B ect) AND I hold the RH not(s) I get a bad change over to the new sound right away. In other words the SX does NOT wait until I release all RH notes before changing sounds. Sometimes it results in a very bad sound and not even the next OTS , just a loud sounds of the one I was on.

I have looked in the menu system for an option on this and didn't find one....that is to wait until ALL RH notes are released before changinging the sounds.

This can't be right...how would you hold a not that is TIED into the next measure , but change the rhythm on the downbeat??

This is pretty basic....
Thanks for any help/suggestions.

That's the way it, Lee. This is a "feature" of every Yamaha keyboard that supports DSPs.

Your options are:
-- Take your hands off the keys
-- Don't use DSPs

Once you've chosen a workaround, you can start petitioning Yamaha for seamless sound switching. We've all been waiting for it for a long time.

Cheers,
Fred

[Graham UK]

I have always known this so I play accordingly...hand off keys.
If you change right hand melody voice with your RIGHT hand then you hands will be off the keys when you change.

[rcpilot]

This wont work, what do you do about a song that the music says to HOLD into the next measure...if you take your hands off...it won't sound right at all.??

[andyg]

What do you do? As I teach my students early on, they are always arranging the music anyway (this is mandatory for all my students) so they 'engineer' a rest at the appropriate point. As has been said, there is no work around other than to do this or not use DSP effects.

If you're using registrations rather than editing OTS, and you're switching from one solo sound to another (or in the case of Tyros, Genos and SX instruments, changing from a solo instrument to two layered sounds, or vice versa), then make sure that you have the required voices in R1, R2 and R3 as required. Make sure that R1, say, isn't changing voices when you change registrations.

And while this issue is not confined to Yamaha arrangers, there are other makes that allow seamless sound changes, and we can only assume that 1) Yamaha are aware of the issue [given the times it's come up on forums, been mentioned in product reviews (mine included) and brought up at meetings (that I have attended), they must be aware!] and 2) there's some deep down reason within the operating system or sound generation system that prevents them from sorting it out.

One day, we'll get that all-new OS, with a new style engine and all the things we've been asking for. Trouble is, it might not be backwards compatible and then people will complain about that!

[blackpool]

I do notice with OTS link activated ....If i am maybe holding an upper note and change OTS it does to hold the original sound until you let go and strike the next upper note, it then sounds the next voice on the OTS link you selected,, which is quite clever really

If you think Yamaha is bad on sound transition then forget a Korg PA ....i just could not cope with that! Yamaha is a DREAM in comparison! IMHO....
I have to say my cheap Korg EK50 ( entry board - different OS to a Korg PA's )  is FANTASTIC  I really dont know how a 'pocket money' board can have such a sleek OS with great voice transition qualities when you change STS ( Korg language for OTS ) .

Keith 

[rcpilot]

Keith are you saying if you change OTS and the OTS does change sounds that it does not change until you release the RH notes being held? Andy said it changes as soon as the new OTS is activated ?

Guys this is easy programming...all they have to do is watch for all RH notes to break, then activate the new sounds....their must be people that want it the way it is??

So, Korg PA4X does the same thing?
Lee

[Fred Smith]

Keith are you saying if you change OTS and the OTS does change sounds that it does not change until you release the RH notes being held? Andy said it changes as soon as the new OTS is activated ?

Guys this is easy programming...all they have to do is watch for all RH notes to break, then activate the new sounds....their must be people that want it the way it is??

So, Korg PA4X does the same thing?
Lee

Lee, we've been wrestling with this for years. You need to quit with the platitudes like "easy programming". It's not helping.

The problem is that a DSP can apply for some time (delay, sustain, reverb, etc.). If you change voices, the new voice will sound, but the currently active DSP will apply to it, which can get ugly. Sometimes it plays nice with the voice, but not always.

The solution is to have the new voice on a different midi channel. If your voice is on R1, then switch to a new voice on R2. This is seamless. But if you have all three voices active, and want to switch, then it may not be seamless.

To fix this, Yamaha needs more midi channels. They may be waiting for the next version of midi to implement this, but only they know.

For now, you need to deal with what you have, as posting more platitudes won't change anything.

Cheers,
Fred

[Eric, B]

Hi Lee,
How about switching OTS manually for those song where you need to hold RH.
That means turning off the OTS link.
It takes only a second and might be an acceptable work around.
Eric

[Fred Smith]

Hi Lee,
How about switching OTS manually for those song where you need to hold RH.
That means turning off the OTS link.
It takes only a second and might be an acceptable work around.
Eric

It's the voice change that causes the problem. Won't be any different whether you change through OTS, or manually.

Cheers,
Fred

[Toril S]

I had to get used to lifting my hands off the keys when I got a more modern keyboard. Sometimes you forget, and a bad noise accurs. Practice is the word here. A keyboard with more MIDI channels won't be backwards compatible, and that is not good in my opinion.

[rcpilot]

Yes, I see that that can work...I tested it here and then you have control on when it switches to the new OTS...instead of having the style element change do it. Looks like you do have to be careful that the sound has stopped completely before hitting the OTS button (1-4). Using Registrations I think will also work...but I have to play with that a little to be sure.
It's been a long time since I had the PA2XPRO, was the issue the same with Korg (Pa4X, now)?

It would be nice to have a setting in menu to tell OTS switch to happen when all RH keys are up...even though in some cases (long sustain etc) it would still be an issue....most instruments would work OK, I think.

I used the pistons on my Thomas Trianon organ to change sounds and of course it was manual no OTS lik or anything like that...and I can't remember if the Yamaha HS8T organ I played had OTS link type function or not....but I dont remember any issues so I think it was just push one of the 16 buttons between the keyboards to change sounds when you wanted it done.

[rcpilot]

I also see that a footswitch can be used to seq. Reg or OTS.....but with only 2 footswitches avail, not sure you would want to use one for that....but its an option.
Lee

[Joe H]

There is another option: Save all 4 OTS with the same DSP settings.  The problem you are experiencing rcpilot is the DPS has to complete it's cycle or "tail".  If you use the same DSP settings for each OTS Voice(s), it should eliminate the problem.

Joe H

[rcpilot]

Joe, OK.....I will try that out as well. So as example if I am playing clarinet in OTS 1, and I setup a flute in OTS 2 with the SAME DSP settings....the sound will not switch until I lift all my RH fingers??? That's what I would want to happen.

I have not got around to doing my own OTS or Reg. but that will come soon as I start to setup for the songs I like.
Thanks for the tip.
Lee

[blackpool]

Lee ... Back to your q..
Try it with a factory ots with link applied and sure it holds until you strike the next note to sound the selected ots linked voices ....
I just play me and I love my ots settings it's enough for me ... Sorry I am a tech dummy..I was brought up on a Hammond M100 am useless with anything new...I can just about edit OTS and then save to a single reg and it does for what I need ....lol

[rcpilot]

Keith...if you try almost any style. OTS link ON. hold down RH let's say G chord...then change style variations around you will get some strange results. IF you turn OTS link OFF and select your OTS manually all is OK. I'm told it is because of the DSP processing setups per voice.  I can live with it, as there are options.

Did you used to have a Korg PA back about 10 years ago?? I was on the Korg Forum with Rob & others back then.....Ha Ha...
Lee

[Pino]

The solution is to have the new voice on a different midi channel. If your voice is on R1, then switch to a new voice on R2. This is seamless. But if you have all three voices active, and want to switch, then it may not be seamless.

Fred has the answer, and it works.
It’s not often if ever I would have 3 voices on more than 1 OTS

Pino

[rcpilot]

Yes, I tried that and it works very well...just use different MIDI channels (R voice #) and it seems to be OK.
So many options,
1) use different channel
2) use regsitrations when you want the change (lift hand)
3) don't use OTS link, and use OTS when you want manually (lift hand)

Do I have it correct?
Lee

[Pino]

Lee

JoeH post
"The problem you are experiencing rcpilot is the DPS has to complete it's cycle or "tail"."

Fred gave you "the FIX"

Whether you use registrations or OTS then the results would be the same.
What don’t you understand?

Pino

[DerekA]

I do have some sympathy with the idea of providing an option to at least reduce the impact of this restriction. For example, an option to just cut the note sounding if the DSP is changed on a part would avoid the nasty squeal we've all heard.

BTW I'm not sure that the L/R1/R2/R3 voices can be considered as playing on a single MIDI channel. Each of these parts can respond to messages on any channel, or transmit on any channel. So for example they could all be transmitting on MIDI channel 1. So I don't think seamless sound switching on the panel parts really has anything to do with MIDI channels, it's more to do with the number of DSP units available. Genos has 28 DSP units, perhaps it's possible for Yamaha programmers to do something creative there?

[Joe H]

Lee

JoeH post
"The problem you are experiencing rcpilot is the DPS has to complete it's cycle or "tail"."

Fred gave you "the FIX"

Whether you use registrations or OTS then the results would be the same.
What don’t you understand?

Pino

Oh... some of us understand very well... maybe better than you (how our keyboards work)  I have always played as Fred explained.  I was just offering another option which works sometimes depending on the genre of music you are playing, the tempo and the type of DSPs you are using. The way DSPs work is that there is always a sustain and decay with many of the effects types such as: Reverb Time

 

Joe H

[Pino]

I did a ‘quote’ on your post because I totally agree with you,
That’s what happens and that is the cause of it,

Pino

[rcpilot]

I got a reply on another site:

No matter how hard you try: switching voices with different DSPs on the same part (= midi channel) is always asking for trouble on ANY Yamaha arranger. Genos included.

The sound generator will "immediately" apply the new DSP processing to the audio coming out from that channel.

Even if you released the keys before switching the voice (manually, via OTS, via Registration, it does not matter) the decaying part of the dying notes will still produce a sound that will be picked up by the new DSP, even if you do not play any new note.

If the new DSP is set to amplify enough the signal or apply feedback (i.e.: Guitar stomp box with distortion. compressor, delay) you end up with nasty and unwanted noises.

It is a lost cause. There is nothing you can do, except to blame Yamaha.

To add insult to injury, many DSP effects are applied with a small (but noticeable, probably in the 100ms range) delay. This means that if you change the DSP and then immediately play a note, the new note attack is cut until the DSP effect catches up (probably an internal delay line whose buffer must be filled before something can come out from the effect).

This is super annoying too. Although less noticeable because most people do NOT play a note immediately after switching the DSP.

* * *

If you want to ELIMINATE the problem once for all and be free to play and switch OTS when you like, glitch free, you should try our software Groovyband Live!. There is a free demo. It perfectly complements your hardware because it is designed to work with Yamaha arrangers.

In addition you can stack 2 insert DSPs per part, and use all the DSPs you have in whatever part you wish. And enjoy literally hundreds of other advanced features your Yamaha firmware simply does not give you.

To learn more you can check our website or also read a few threads on this forum (only a few days old, just scroll down a page or two in the recent threads list, or use the search function). The software comes with 860 high quality styles, you can listen to some of them both on our website and in files attached to those posts by some of our users. They modded some of them with outstanding results and also unprecedented ease (their words, not ours).

IS this true?
Thanks,
Lee

[Joe H]

... It is a lost cause. There is nothing you can do, except to blame Yamaha...

I don't think it's Yamaha's fault... it's the nature of how MIDI works.  Some say they don't have the problem with Korg arrangers.  If that's true then Korg must be using an additional MIDI Buss for Right-hand Voices

Did you try switching from R1 on one OTS to R2 on the next OTS? These are on different MIDI channels.

As already stated, the best solution is to avoid playing a note when you switch Main Sections or OTS.

Joe H

[rcpilot]

Joe, Thanks for the reply....read what Groovyland.live said again.  I am currently only using Yamaha SX-900 styles and OTS.....
I'm interested in your experiences....
Lee

[Henni]

...IS this true?...

I have now posted quite a few live demos (me playing) of this software. If you listen carefully, you will realize that it IS true and that GroovyBand Live! eliminated this problem completely and it IS rather noticeable!

[Joe H]

I'm not really interested in arranger software to play styles. I like my hardware add-ons (sound modules), but don't want to be dependent on software while I'm playing.

 

Joe H

[Henni]

Hi Joe H,

GBL is a sound module in disguise. It's the same as any other module, only it uses your PSR sound engine and a tablet as a host.

Above purely for your info - we've had enough debates about this. Enjoy whatever you use.

I find that no matter what I attempt, I cannot equal the quality coming from this amazing software using my PSR S770.

So I gave up resistance & started using it with stunning results. It gets easier as I get more used to it.

Cheers,

Henni

[Pino]

Henni , looks like you went ahead and purchased it,
Otherwise you cannot use the ‘save’
or did they send you a free copy,
You can buy a lot of good style for €300/€500
I would be interested just to play around with it but the high cost puts me off.

Pino

[Henni]

If you use an PSR, especially a S770, it cost much less than the next model with most of it's features included in GBL. This package is truly amazing. I keep on discovering new features not mentioned anywhere.

It behaves more like my Audya than like my Yamaha.  I.e. I control the right hand voices by the way I play on my keys, exactly like the Audya. Now I'm going to request a drum fill based on how I play like I have with the Audya.

The developers are keen to upgrade GBL with valid requests and because it is soft driven, the only limit is ones imagination.

[Pino]

Henni,
It cost €299 no matter which way you look at it.
Did you get a free copy?

[Henni]

How much is the SX900?
How much is the Geno's?
How much is GBL with the GHENOS package as this is all I use, bar a 2nd hand tablet, but for now my desktop/laptop works fine. No schlep apart from a single printer cable.

As for the styles, I can do nothing with them on my S770 as they were created for the Geno's mostly taking advantage of all it's features which I do not have on my S770.

Not having any of the Yamaha flagships, I cannot speak for those users. But for the PSR users this is the second and more affordable option for sure.

[Pino]

Henni,
It cost €299 no matter which way you look at it.
Did you get a free copy?

[rcpilot]

OK, I just spent a couple hours testing the OTS change function on the SX-900.
Based on great suggestions by the group....I can not make it fail....let me explain.
I am using the Yamaha playlist. I am using only Yamaha registrations called by the playlist. I have not changed anything.

So, Yamaha styles right out of the box. OTS link ON.

IF I do as suggested and be sure to lift my right hand before changing OTS they all work fine, no bad sounds no problems at all. I have done it very fast as well and still is fine. Even with voices that decay pianos, guitars etc...as soon as I lift my hand and hit a different OTS all is good. The previous sound STOPS as I would like and I can immediately use the next voice.

So maybe they fixed this issue? As soon as I lift my RH, and immediately change OTS the sound does STOP immediately....Yeah. I can see where if you hold the RH notes down it can and will cause the bad noises, abrupt change etc....after all you are telling the instrument you want to play the old sound still and switching while it is playing.

A nice menu option might be to kill all notes when you change OTS (just like it does when you lift your hand)...then you could immediately play the next notes that way you could hold notes into the next measure but change the Variation at the measure line.....but I will just use a fill or break instead of changing OTS in the case where a not ties into the next measure.....

And the sounds on the 900 are really great! I do a lot of orchestral stuff and it sure sounds good...

Thanks for the help everyone!

[Henni]

I like the GBL idea off allocating extra resources to whatever is currently playing, allowing it to play out in full even after kicking in the newly selected voices.

It does make for a much smoother transition indeed.

[panos]

Hi Lee.
from my experience(I am just playing in my home ok?)
this problem is happening when we don't release the keys before we change voices.
When we do release the keys, even if the Dsp effect didn't end it's circle yet (a dsp effect with a lot of sustain in it) the next sound will overcome the sound of the dsp and it will be hardly noticeable that it keeps sounding in the background for some milliseconds after we have released the keys an entered a new sound.
So I don't think there is a problem there.It is the same hardly noticeable disorder of sound when we change voices (without different dsp's) and going e.g from a saxophone to an electric guitar without releasing the notes at all.

I am using R1+R2 dsp's a lot along with left voices and Harmony settings to take advantage of more rich sounds with all OTS or reg buttons.
This problem with the sustain note happens in just a few songs that it is so important to keep the note playing and the dsp's are producing that annoying sound.
As long as I don't want to set a new combination of voices,I just hit the break button of the same style part(so to distract the listener's attention that i should kept that note down a little more),release the note and then hit the next OTS or reg button.

You can also try to decrease the value's of the dsp effect(practically how strong or weak it will sound compare to the voice's sound) in the voice setting menu (values for dsp reverb,dsp depth,dsp sustain) and minimize the risk that this annoying thing will sound too loud, in case you forget to raise your fingers at the correct timing, as long as there is not that big loss in the sound quality of the voice combination.

I don't know about technical stuff but I guess if there was just an easy solution they would solved that problem with the new operating system of Genos(and SX) because the thing that we appreciate more in Yamaha it is the "sound" of it's keyboards.
And this a "sound" problem and not a.... missing "function".

[rcpilot]

Panos, OK I understand....I will keep that in mind when setting things up. Thanks for the detailed help...it all makes sense. Nice tips to try out and practice.
Lee