Topic: IK Multimedia B-3X, and Genos

[jimlaing]

Hi... I didn't see a thread on this particular topic, so hopefully I'm not duplicating something else someone already wrote.  I've been experimenting with the IK Multimedia Hammond app for iPad, called B-3X.  It is an awesome sounding Hammond organ app!  One thing I noticed is that when I engage the Leslie (they simulate real Leslie speakers) on IK's app, it sounds great.  When I use the "Real Rotary" effect on Genos, it does not sound anywhere near as good.  Mainly, the real Hammond with Leslie is slower than the default settings for Genos "Real Rotary", and the real stuff is a bit "deeper" in its effect than the default settings for "Real Rotary".  And the 'character' of the Leslie effect is just quite different in ways that I can't describe (IK's app vs. Genos Real Rotary).

I'm using this setup to create my own Real Rotary settings that (I hope) will more closely mimic what Hammond sanctions as a real Hammond with a real Leslie, given that the IK app is 'sanctioned' by the actual Hammond company.

As much as I've enjoyed Yamaha arranger workstation keyboards, one weakness I feel they have is in the Hammond/Drawbar/B3 area; they sound "OK" but not up-to-par with some better drawbar/B3 emulations out there.

Jim

[Ashtangakasha]

I agree. I frequently need a smooth transition from fast or slow OFF. Yamaha programmers just don't seem to be into full control of a B3.

Allen

[pjd]

Hi Jim --

This subject comes up from time to time.

The mid- to high-end arranger keyboards share the same effect algorithms with Montage/MODX. So, I swap parameters between Genos and MODX. For reasons that I cannot recall (!), I gave up on the REAL ROTARY effect. For one thing, the REAL ROTARY effect is missing two parameters:

17 Slow-Fast Time of Rotor
18 Fast-Slow Time of Rotor

which are supported on Montage/MODX. The Genos, etc. software is limited to 16 effect parameters -- something which Yamaha still haven't fixed. 

I've participated in a few Yamaha marketing interviews with Yamaha synth folks. I always bring up the lame state of rotary speaker emulation. The synth people face stiff competition from Nord, etc., yet they seemingly do nothing! Yes, I'm frustrated.

One or two synth guys admitted that Yamaha Japan consistently sets the factory Leslie speeds too high. The Reface YC is a case in point. I can't stand the high setting on the YC and now avoid it like the plague. At least the YC overdrive works correctly -- another thing that Yamaha need to fix. 

So, these are the settings that I use on both the MODX and Genos:

Genos: ROTARY SPEAKER1
MODX:  ROTARY SPEAKER1

    Woofer Speed Slow           40.2rpm     0.67Hz
    Horn Speed Slow             48.0rpm     0.80Hz
    Woofer Speed Fast           333.0rpm    5.55Hz
    Horn Speed Fast             363.6rpm    6.06Hz
    Slow-Fast Time of Woofer    47
    Slow-Fast Time of Horn      20
    Drive Low                   17
    Drive High                  42
    Low/High Balance            L=H
    EQ Low Frequency            100Hz
    EQ Low Gain                 -2dB
    EQ High Frequency           14kHz
    EQ High Gain                -12dB
    Mic L-R Angle               162deg

Even tho' the rotary settings are the same, the Genos sounds brighter in A/B tests. The MODX rotary effect feeds the MODX VCM EQ 501 equalizer. I try to mimic the equalization in the ROTARY SPEAKER1 settings.

Don't look for the VCM EQ 501 on Genos -- Yamaha didn't give it to us. The Montage/MODX have some additional effects over Genos and vice versa.

My comments may or may not help. I've been tempted by the Mini Vent many a time, but always find some other way to spend money -- like new tires. 

Good luck with your exploration -- pj

[Amxf5]

Thanks for those settings PJ. I just tried them, I have never changed effects settings before, so how do I save it to memory,and can it be made the same for all organs?

[markstyles]

Yeah the IK modeled B3 is very good.  There other modeled instruments are quite good too.  The GENOS organ is usually OK if in a mix.  But in reality nothing beats a real Hammond B3 going thru a REAL Leslie, Not just because of the rotating horn and bass, but because the sound generated is bounced off walls, and that sound mixes in with sound you hear.   If there ever was any sound relegated to the term 'Ear Candy" it is the Leslie speeding up and slowing down..  But I DO NOT miss those days of lugging that beast up/down a flight of stairs.

[jimlaing]

Re: saving effects settings ... I'm not at my Genos, so this is approximate: when you are editing the parameters for Real Rotary (or any effect), in the lower, left corner of the screen is a little "save" icon (a disk drive with arrow).  Press this, then name the Preset with a good name (I usually include my initials so I know it's something I've customized).  So, mine is "REAL ROTARY JL" or similar.

To use for other organs, i.e. in other Registrations, I believe you need to edit each such Registration to use your new Effect.  I have not done this yet, but will eventually go in and modify a bunch of Registrations that use organ... those that I deem "worth" having the slightly better, customized version of Real Rotary that I created.

Hope this helps,
jim

[pjd]

Thanks for those settings PJ. I just tried them, I have never changed effects settings before, so how do I save it to memory,and can it be made the same for all organs?

Hi --

I save the settings as a USER effect: Genos Reference Manual, page 128. It's just as easy as Jim described it. Then, when I create registration (or whatever), I use the saved USER effect instead of a Yamaha factory preset.

By the way, those settings are just a starting point. Feel free to tweak away! Every now and again, I feel like things could be even slower -- like a Leslie with really bad belts and pulleys. 


Hope this helps -- pj

[Bachus]

Ik multimedia has a tendency of releasing their apps extremelyhigh priced €109 ..
It would be wise to wait for the several expected price drops.
In a few months this app will only cost €20..

So far thats allways been the case with ik multimedia apps..

The app still falls short compared to several other emulations on pc..

[ugawoga]

Hi
You cannot beat their effect generators, Syntronic and sampletank 4. also the rotary's are good
Great to have in your arsenal and yes wait for group buys.
Even the old synths work in Sampletank 4.
All great in Cubase 10.5

Also for extra sound packs,  steer clear of the Yamaha overpriced ones. Easysounds are far better and cheaper. Again wait for the discounts.

all the best
john

[Lee Batchelor]

Doesn't the rotary effect (good or bad) work best when the Genos is hooked up in stereo, not mono? Same with the piano and most other voices. I say this because some players use their Genos with a single Bose or another similar speaker. I agree in the mix with a band or the Genos itself, the B3 isn't bad, but for solo right-hand work ...

Yamaha could give us great B3 organs and more than 16 effects but they just don't want to have two synthesizers in their product line !

[Hammond Yamaha]

The Real Rotary effect on the Genos reminds me of the rotors of a helicopter.  It is not good at all.
I run it in stereo through 2 Bose L1 compacts and that is the best description I can give it.
Frank

[Lee Batchelor]

Me too, Frank. It sounds sort of okay in a mix but by itself, well you know...

[Colin D]

I've tried saving Leslie FAST & SLOW to the registration buttons.  It don't work.  However if you open the leslie control feature it does move the fast/slow lever.  But the sound don't change.  It's a pain

[Hammond Yamaha]

Niceonetidy;
Here is how I save fast/ slow rotary in a registration and it works for me.
I have a pedal to operate the fast. Slow.
When setting up your registration, go to utility. When the page opens, chose assignable and assign which ever pedal you want to fast / slow rotary.  Then when you save your registration it will be included.

Frank
Ps I also set my mike and harmony in registrations as well.

[Lee Batchelor]

Niceonetidy;
Here is how I save fast/ slow rotary in a registration and it works for me.
I have a pedal to operate the fast. Slow.
When setting up your registration, go to utility. When the page opens, chose assignable and assign which ever pedal you want to fast / slow rotary.  Then when you save your registration it will be included.

Frank
Ps I also set my mike and harmony in registrations as well.

This is correct. I did the same thing except I edited the Leslie settings first. The rotary speed now has a slower acceleration rate, just like the real thing. I have no idea why a company as brilliant as Yamaha thinks that a Leslie speaker is "instant on" and "instant off!" In the real world, that would burn out the motor and likely rip the horn from its mountings!!

[Colin D]

Lee,

Thank you all. What settings do you use for the rotary please,

Kind regards

Colin

[Lee Batchelor]

Hi Colin,

My Genos is packed for a show. Next time it's open at home, I'll check for you. It will be soon. Thanks...

[StuartR]

Hi... I didn't see a thread on this particular topic, so hopefully I'm not duplicating something else someone already wrote.  I've been experimenting with the IK Multimedia Hammond app for iPad, called B-3X.  It is an awesome sounding Hammond organ app!  One thing I noticed is that when I engage the Leslie (they simulate real Leslie speakers) on IK's app, it sounds great.  When I use the "Real Rotary" effect on Genos, it does not sound anywhere near as good.  Mainly, the real Hammond with Leslie is slower than the default settings for Genos "Real Rotary", and the real stuff is a bit "deeper" in its effect than the default settings for "Real Rotary".  And the 'character' of the Leslie effect is just quite different in ways that I can't describe (IK's app vs. Genos Real Rotary).

I'm using this setup to create my own Real Rotary settings that (I hope) will more closely mimic what Hammond sanctions as a real Hammond with a real Leslie, given that the IK app is 'sanctioned' by the actual Hammond company.

As much as I've enjoyed Yamaha arranger workstation keyboards, one weakness I feel they have is in the Hammond/Drawbar/B3 area; they sound "OK" but not up-to-par with some better drawbar/B3 emulations out there.

Jim

There is a thread on this Hammond app already but it hasn't gotten much attention. I've been experimenting with it as well, using an external midi keyboard controller.

I haven't found a way to play it via midi using the Genos as a controller without triggering an internal Genos sound along with it. Perhaps I've overlooked the obvious here?

[Bachus]

There is a thread on this Hammond app already but it hasn't gotten much attention. I've been experimenting with it as well, using an external midi keyboard controller.

I haven't found a way to play it via midi using the Genos as a controller without triggering an internal Genos sound along with it. Perhaps I've overlooked the obvious here?

On Genos there is a voice named init (i beleive its called, not behind my keys) there is no sound attached to this voice..
I have added it to my favorites... use it a lot in combination with my ipad

[StuartR]

On Genos there is a voice named init (i beleive its called, not behind my keys) there is no sound attached to this voice..
I have added it to my favorites... use it a lot in combination with my ipad

Thanks, I knew there must be a way!

Stuart.

[StuartR]

Any idea how to access this Init voice?

[StuartR]

I'm thinking I'd need to create this in YEM and load it into my Genos?

[soryt]

Can the Genos sliders control the  drawbars on the B3 app ?
than we have a dream option   

Soneg 

[Colin D]

The Genos is an expensive keyboard.  In my opinion the Organ sounds are never too good.  It should be, the early organ sounds have been around for years.  They should be easy to re-create with the Genos,

[voodoo]

There is a thread on this Hammond app already but it hasn't gotten much attention. I've been experimenting with it as well, using an external midi keyboard controller.

I haven't found a way to play it via midi using the Genos as a controller without triggering an internal Genos sound along with it. Perhaps I've overlooked the obvious here?

Hi Stuart,

I have put the first thread in the Genos+iPad section, where it has been overseen.

The simplest way to mute the internal sound is to use the setting "local off". It is part of the midi setup and it is made just for this case: mute internal sound when playing external.

I have routed my Right 3 Part to external midi port and set Right 3 to "local off". Then we can use all controls and sliders for the external device:

  * volume slider (cc7) controls overall volume of B-3X
  * volume pedal (cc11) controls organ volume before effect, so you can ciontrol depth of overdrive (like for a real B3)
  * sustain pedal (cc64) or modulation stick (cc1) can be used to change rotary speed

Many other controls like pan, reverb, chorus etc. can be used to control any parameter on the iPad just by midi learn.

When I have time I will search a possible configuration for the 9 sliders to control the draw bars of the B-3X. I think it is possible.

Uli

[StuartR]

Hi Stuart,

I have put the first thread in the Genos+iPad section, where it has been overseen.

The simplest way to mute the internal sound is to use the setting "local off". It is part of the midi setup and it is made just for this case: mute internal sound when playing external.

I have routed my Right 3 Part to external midi port and set Right 3 to "local off". Then we can use all controls and sliders for the external device:

  * volume slider (cc7) controls overall volume of B-3X
  * volume pedal (cc11) controls organ volume before effect, so you can ciontrol depth of overdrive (like for a real B3)
  * sustain pedal (cc64) or modulation stick (cc1) can be used to change rotary speed

Many other controls like pan, reverb, chorus etc. can be used to control any parameter on the iPad just by midi learn.

When I have time I will search a possible configuration for the 9 sliders to control the draw bars of the B-3X. I think it is possible.

Uli

Bravo.... thank you Uli, I'll give this a try!

Stuart.

[Lee Batchelor]

Colin and other folks...here are the settings I use for my Rotary Leslie on the Genos.


[attachment deleted by admin]

[Colin D]

Lee,

Thank you for the settings.  I will try these later when I'm home from work,

Kind Regards

Colin,

[voodoo]

Hi all,

as promised, I have found a configuration that works for controlling the B-3X draw bars using the Genos live control sliders.

Use the following assignments for the Genos live control sliders.
I use Slider Assign Type 2. These are free, when you don't need them for midi songs.
Apply them to the part "Right 3", so you can use Right 1 and 2 as usual.
Save the settings to a registry to recall them as needed.

* Slider 1 -> Voice Edit / Modulation + (cc 1)
* Slider 2 -> Mixer / Panorama (cc 10)
* Slider 3 -> Voice Edit / Modulation - (cc 16)
* Slider 4 -> Mixer / Resonance (cc 71)
* Slider 5 -> Voice Edit / Release (cc 72)
* Slider 6 -> Voice Edit / Attack (cc 73)
* Slider 7 -> Mixer / Cutoff (cc 74)
* Slider 8 -> Mixer / Reverb (cc 91)
* Slider 9 -> Mixer / Chorus (cc 93)

Use the following assignment for the pedals (should be the default):

* Pedal 1 -> Voice / Volume (cc 11) (in fact, it is Expression)
* Pedal 3 -> Voice / Sustain (cc 64)

Then in B-3X, assign the drawbars to the CC numbers 1, 10, 16, 71, 72, 73, 74, 91, 93 or use midi learn.
Set them to "Inv" to get the correct slider direction.
Assign Expression to CC 11 (should be the default) and Leslie Slow/fast to CC 64 with option Latch.

Now you are ready to play the B-3X from Genos including draw bars and leslie speed switch.
Set Right 3 to local off to mute the Genos sound for Right 3.
Use the regular slider for Right 3 Volume (cc 7) in the Balance Assign Type to control the overall volume of the B-3X.

I use a regular USB printer cable with the USB-lightning-Adapter (camera connection kit) to attach the iPad to the Genos.
The headphones out from the iPad can go to the Genos Aux in, or directly to the audio mixer console.

That's it. Have fun.

Uli

P.S.: Try to activate the Overscream Stomp in the Stomps section in B-3X. It makes a beast even out of the standard preset sound.
Put this function to a third Genos Pedal (use sostenuto (cc 66) or soft (cc 67) assignment) to fire it in whenever you need it
(On Genos, assign Pedal 2 to Voice/Sostenuto and on B-3X, assign "Overscream On" to CC 66 with option Latch.)

[StuartR]

Hi Stuart,

I have put the first thread in the Genos+iPad section, where it has been overseen.

The simplest way to mute the internal sound is to use the setting "local off". It is part of the midi setup and it is made just for this case: mute internal sound when playing external.

I have routed my Right 3 Part to external midi port and set Right 3 to "local off". Then we can use all controls and sliders for the external device:

  * volume slider (cc7) controls overall volume of B-3X
  * volume pedal (cc11) controls organ volume before effect, so you can ciontrol depth of overdrive (like for a real B3)
  * sustain pedal (cc64) or modulation stick (cc1) can be used to change rotary speed

Many other controls like pan, reverb, chorus etc. can be used to control any parameter on the iPad just by midi learn.

When I have time I will search a possible configuration for the 9 sliders to control the draw bars of the B-3X. I think it is possible.

Uli

After getting all this set up and saved to a custom setting in the MIDI configuration, I find that these MIDI user settings don't seem to be able to be saved in registration memories. Without this ability you can't easily switch setups that require different MIDI routings during live performances. Surely (once again) I'm missing something?

[voodoo]

Stuart,

Thank you for testing my proposal.

Your comments are completely right. I have been thinking about the same question.

To my knowledge there is no way to save midi setup to registration.
The main thing that we cannot save is the setting for Part 3 local on/off.
The other midi settings can be permanent for my taste. Always sending Right 3 to Midi Port Channel 1 does not disturb my otherwise.

But we can save the complete set of midi assignments for the live control sliders to a registration.
I think that is not so bad.
With V2.0 we even can save that the Slider Assign Type 2 is active when recalling the registration, so the draw bars are active immediately.

Uli

[StuartR]

Stuart,

Thank you for testing my proposal.

Your comments are completely right. I have been thinking about the same question.

To my knowledge there is no way to save midi setup to registration.
The main thing that we cannot save is the setting for Part 3 local on/off.
The other midi settings can be permanent for my taste. Always sending Right 3 to Midi Port Channel 1 does not disturb my otherwise.

But we can save the complete set of midi assignments for the live control sliders to a registration.
I think that is not so bad.
With V2.0 we even can save that the Slider Assign Type 2 is active when recalling the registration, so the draw bars are active immediately.

Uli

One option that occurs to me (suggested by another member) is to use a blank voice for R3 when you want to use it strictly for MIDI control. This can be created in YEM, imported and selected via registration as needed.

[jimlaing]

Hi - on Leslie (Rotary) speeds, I did some comparisons between B-3X app (IK's official Hammond organ app) and Genos "Real Rotary" effect.  I found (as pjd did) that speeds around 360rpm or so, matched most closely with Hammond (And IK) Leslie speeds, at least in "by-ear" tests.  So I created my own copy of Real Rotary effect (as User Effect) on the Genos, and modified the fast speeds of rotors to somewhere in the 350-370rpm range, and the are now fairly close to the speeds I hear when the Leslie is set to "fast" on the IK/Hammond app ... the 'character' of the rotary is still fairly different than the Leslie in IK/Hammond, but changing the speed down to ~360 or so (fast) makes it a bit closer anyway ...

Jim

[voodoo]

One option that occurs to me (suggested by another member) is to use a blank voice for R3 when you want to use it strictly for MIDI control. This can be created in YEM, imported and selected via registration as needed.

Stuart,

yes exactly, this is the way that I would go. I have made some dummy voice files that can be put on USB. They do a program change but don't have sound. So they are perfect for switching programs on an external sound generator (with names displayed on Genos) and at the same time muting the sound generation for this part on Genos. Or using the YEM, as you described, is also a perfect solution including voice names.

Uli

[StuartR]

Stuart,

yes exactly, this is the way that I would go. I have made some dummy voice files that can be put on USB. They do a program change but don't have sound. So they are perfect for switching programs on an external sound generator (with names displayed on Genos) and at the same time muting the sound generation for this part on Genos. Or using the YEM, as you described, is also a perfect solution including voice names.

Uli

I hadn't thought about the dummy voice actually performing a midi operation along with just being mute. Good ideas that!

[uhoh7]

I've still not quite pulled the trigger on a Genos, but one thing I like is the Organ (B3 emulation) seemed alot better implemented than with any Yamaha product before, and even the drawbars are Hammond style.

As most of you I'm sure know:
https://youtu.be/qd_a_Hpiz0E
The YC61 has landed. Organ nuts seem crazy about it.
Do we know if there is any relations between the DSPs behind the YC and Genos?
Aside from Leslie issues, how do you like the Genos compared to other clonewheels?

The YC61 looks so nice but lack of any aftertouch is dealbreaker for me. It's 2020 and why we don't have poly AT on all these boards, I don't understand frankly. $$$$.

On that note, how is the mono aftertouch on the Genos? Is it adjustable? So often I find AT so heavy it's unusable.

On the Leslie issues, there are such good leslie pedals, I figure I can always add one if needed. I'm lucky to have 3 Leslies and an RT3 in the living room.

Thanks for great forum here. 

[KeyboardByBiggs]

The YC61 has landed. Organ nuts seem crazy about it.

The YC61 looks so nice but lack of any aftertouch is dealbreaker for me.

All of the organ players I follow and trust that have played it aren't very impressed.

[Lee Batchelor]

Looks like Yamaha is trying to compete with the Nord Electro series. Nord has been at it for a long time. My friend is a seasoned pro piano and B3 player. He says the Nord Electro keyboards are about the best B3 emulators to date.

[Amxf5]

The most accurate clone wheel available by all accounts is the Crumar Mojo. No others come close!

[Amxf5]

Nothing compares to a real Hammond B3. But for clonewheels,most reviews give the nod to the Mojo, mainly because it costs over $1500 less than the X5, with nearly identical B3 sound. The most bang for your buck is what they say!

[Chelsea 4023]

Hi,

I'm a little confused by the discussions between musicman01 and Amxf5. Although they both seem to agree nothing beats a genuine Hammond B3 with a real leslie they disagree on wether the Hammond XK5 or the Crumar Mojo is the best clone. Neither mention the Viscount Legend range of organs designed by Elvio Previati (formally Key B organs) and produced by Viscount Italy.
The fact that neither Forum Members even mention the Viscount Legend organs in their posts does seem strange as this brand is a major player in the Hammond Clone market.
I have heard both the Hammond XK5 and also the Crumar Mojo and they indeed are excellent clones. I have read up on both in extensive reviews, and with regards to the XK5 it is prohibitively expensive to purchase, and users claim the leslie sim is not particularly realistic. With regards to the Crumar Mojo, build quality and reliability comes into question from owners (particularly because it uses VB3 software).
I own a Viscount Legend Live organ and yes it's not perfect by any stretch, I also would not claim it to be the best clone out there. What I can say without doubt is that it's quite fairly priced, sounds reasonably good, has a great leslie sim and comes with a P.C. editor for all the 'tweakers' out there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qVi_qZnQlY

Chris

[Chelsea 4023]

Hi,

Just to add some information to my previous post about the Hammond Clones,
I have sourced some actual U.K. prices online (not retail) of the three Clones. No prices include bass pedals or amplification.

Hammond XK5 dual manual organ.      £4,498.
Viscount Legend dual manual organ.   £2,231.
Crumar Mojo XT dual manual organ.    £1,559.

As you can see, the Hammond XK5 dual manual is exactly double the price of a Viscount Legend dual manual, plus another £36.
The Crumar Mojo XT dual manual is the cheapest Clone. Unfortunately it only has one set of drawbars whereas the other Clones
have two sets of drawbars.

Chris

[Chelsea 4023]

Hi,

Sorry musicman01, I don't understand what you mean when you say 'I just have to point you right'.
For the record, Viscount Legend organs do not use VB3 software. To my knowledge neither the Key B
or the Numa organs use VB3 software. I owned a Numa 2 organ and that definitely did not use VB3
software either.
The Key B and Viscount are two different Companies.
Finally, when you say the Hammond XK5 is currently the best clone wheel, is that in your opinion or
have you been told that by somebody ?

Chris

p.s. Please don't think that because I own a Legend Live that I'm saying it's the best clone on the market,
it's probably not but it does deserve to be included in the list.

[Chelsea 4023]

Hi musicman01,

Final post on this subject as your simply not getting the message.
Viscount is nothing to do with Key B. The Key B is a totally different organ and Company to the Viscount Legend range of organs.
There was a three year gap between the Key B organs and the release of the Viscount Legend range of organs.

The Viscount Legend range of organs is based on 'Physical modelling synthesis' and does NOT use sampling technology.
I would suggest you look at the official Viscount specs in the link below,

https://www.viscountinstruments.com/legend.html?limit=all

You can keep insisting Viscount and Key B organs use sampling technology but it does not make you right !!

Chris

[jimlaing]

To respond to uhoh7's topics ... I have the IK B-3X on iPad, and also the Genos.  Out of the box (i.e. default settings), the Genos drawbar organ sounds "OK" but to my ears, but not that great.  The leslie simulation is set much too fast by default.  When I compare the B-3x iPad app (I don't have a real Hammond to compare!) the Genos is quite "wimpy" in its drawbar organ sounds.  Yes, it has the 'drawbar-like' controls etc., and it is not *bad* sounding in organs, just not nearly as good as most clone wheels I've played (Nord, Hammond, and IK app).  When I made the rotary speed more appropriate on Genos, its drawbar organs do sound somewhat better.  The other thing is that the Genos does not have the "Chorus" (C1, C2, C3) settings at all - I always wondered why Yamaha didn't include this in the past, while other Clonewheels did.

I don't hear anything like the new YC61's drawbar sounds when I play Genos' drawbar organs.  I don't know the technical details, but I get the impression from listening to the Yamaha guys on the YC61 videos, that the YC61 is an entirely new 'thing' with all new tech behind it, such that it sounds like a lot more like a really good clonewheel - to my ears, much better than Genos when it comes to Hammond tonewheel sound.  I wrote in one note somewhere that I hoped that Yamaha would put the YC61 organ tech into the next Genos keyboard!!

Jim

[andyg]

I avoid Real Rotor like the plague! I think the helicopter comparison in an earlier post is quite apt.

If you understand how the Leslie crossover affects the tone between treble and bass, and how the rotors in a real Leslie spin, then you can adjust the parameters in Dual Rotor Bright to get a very passable Leslie sound.

But it's still not going to be anything like a real Hammond and Leslie - no moving air! And it won't be as close as the best clones - I'll let others argue over which of the likes of the XK5, Nords, Mojos, Legends etc are the best. But all those clones really need a Leslie, their sims are good but not there - yet.

And for those organists like me who actually like their Hammonds to make sounds other than 88 8800 000 + percussion + overdrive , or want other types of organ - Lowrey, Thomas, Baldwin etc, then you have to sit down and spend a few hours playing mix and match with sounds and DSPs. The results can be astonishingly good if you have patience!

[Chelsea 4023]

Hi Andyg,

I have the Korg PA4X (which I bought through Keysounds, Leicester). Nigel pre-loads the keyboard with TTT theatre samples and Wersi organ samples. It also comes a very impressive set of church organ samples. These sounds (along with the flute drawbars) cover virtually all genres of organ music.
What let's the keyboard down badly is the flute drawbar section and the leslie sim (for me anyway). I believe the Genos is better, but not by a great margin. The technology is available and it's not particularly expensive so why will Yamaha and Korg not put decent tonewheel sounds into their arrangers ? As I have said before, if Viscount can do a standalone drawbar module for around £450 Korg and Yamaha (who now have the drawbar technology in the YC61) could quite easily implement it at a lower cost.
I use my 61 note arranger sitting above my Legend Live in a three manual organ configuration. Unfortunately the Genos is a bit too long to sit above the organ but I'm looking seriously at the new SX900 as a potential third manual.

Regarding which are the best clones, all I was saying is that the Viscount Legend range of drawbar organs simply deserves to be included in the shortlist. It's not the best clone and I would never say that.

Chris

[pjd]

I avoid Real Rotor like the plague! I think the helicopter comparison in an earlier post is quite apt.

If you understand how the Leslie crossover affects the tone between treble and bass, and how the rotors in a real Leslie spin, then you can adjust the parameters in Dual Rotor Bright to get a very passable Leslie sound.

Hi Andy --

Thanks! I wanted to love REAL ROTOR myself, but returned to the algorithm behind DUAL ROTOR WARM (and BRIGHT). You helped put me in touch with the "je ne sais quoi" that I heard/felt.

I agree about a real Leslie and so forth. However, this is not practical for many of us. (Let us count the ways...  )

Hi Jim --

Yep, Yamaha mathematically modeled the drawbars, the rotary speaker acoustics and the circuitry. One of the people behind the YC61 is sensei Toshifumi Kunimoto. Dr. K was a major contributor to VCM and VL physical modeling. The YC61 is a genuine advance for Yamaha as far as virtual tonewheel organ technology is concerned.

As to whether the new technology can be implemented inexpensively, who knows as yet? I'd like to see the service manual to see what's inside. 

All that said, I found a second hand Lester K and will be giving it a try. I'll eventually try the YC61 once it's released (June 2020?)

All the best -- pj
 

[Chelsea 4023]

Hi Jim,
I read your post regarding the Genos organs sounds and that you mentioned about Yamaha putting the clonewheel technology from the YC61 into the a second generation Genos. Is that a feasible prospect ? Is there anyway they could update the current Genos with the new technology or would that be a 'no go' as new hardware would be required ?
I know AndyG has been involved with keyboards/organs for a long time and I'd be interested in his opinions.
For me, the weakness in the flute sections of current arranger keyboards is the only thing that would stop me from buying another one.
Chris

[KeyboardByBiggs]

Simply upgrading their Leslie simulation would go a LONG way.

I, and several other Genos users, send the organ sound out of the Aux jacks then through an external Leslie pedal, liker the ElectroHarmonix Lester, or one of the Vent pedals.

This absolutely brings the organ sound in the Genos alive. It's unbelievable how good it sounds when you do this.

They can upgrade the tonewheel sound all they want, but if they don't raise their Leslie game it won't make much difference.