Topic: Tuning on song parts

[DerekA]

I'm probably just having a senior moment, but is there a way to set individual tuning on Song parts?

I mean, for example, having a synth line copied across two parts with one set +5c and the other -5c, to create a fat effect.

Thanks

[Janus]

Yes with track transpose
+5 -5 won't work
It goes wrong with the harmonie with chord changes
It must be + 12 or -12  A whole octave  to keep the song in harmonie

[tyrosaurus]

The 'Tune' setting allowing individual tuning of the voice parts is on the 'Voice Setting' display.

This is accessed via 'Menu' > '(Menu 2)' > 'Voice Setting'.

'Voice Setting' is also available from the 'Menu' button on any Voice Selection screen.


Regards

Ian
 

[DerekA]

Thanks for the replies but maybe I can be clearer about the question:

+ I want to adjust tuning in cents, not semitones, to create detuning effects.

+ I can do this on R/L voices via the 'voice setting' display - but I want to do this on some of the 16 MIDI song parts.

[Janus]

Why don't use an effect with detune
Like flanger
Edit such an effect to get the results you want

[jwyvern]

Thanks for the replies but maybe I can be clearer about the question:

+ I want to adjust tuning in cents, not semitones, to create detuning effects.

+ I can do this on R/L voices via the 'voice setting' display - but I want to do this on some of the 16 MIDI song parts.

You probably have to edit the voice as you want in say R1 and use it in the detuned state as you record.
John

[Joe H]

Derek is referring to "Fine Tune" which is part of the XG specifications.  Since I don't have a Genos, I don't know if there is a way to fine tune a Voice in a style Part. It's an interesting question though.  Hope someone will find the answer.

 

Joe H

[Joe H]

I just looked in StyleMagic.  There is an option in the List View screen to insert a sysex message for Master Fine Tune,  but I'm not sure that this is what Derek is wanting. Master Fine Tune sounds like it will fine tune the entire style file.

Maybe one of of our programmers will weigh in on the question.

Joe H

[tyrosaurus]

If you record a MIDI song with a voice part already 'detuned', the tuning is saved in the song.

So there is obviously a MIDI event which is holding this setting, probably SysEx.

Try looking in the Data Manual or using MixMaster to see if you can identify it.  You might then be able to add it to an existing MIDI song using Step Edit.


Regards

Ian

[Janus]

There are controllers to do this job
Controller 93 Chorus Level
Controller 94 Celeste Level or Detune
Controller 95 Phaser Level
I think the compleet list is already uploaded in the forum

[DerekA]

If you record a MIDI song with a voice part already 'detuned', the tuning is saved in the song.
So there is obviously a MIDI event which is holding this setting, probably SysEx.

There are controllers to do this job
Controller 94 Celeste Level or Detune

Thanks both - I'll try them out and see how it goes

[Luluc]

You can also export your MIDI file to any MIDI Editor and insert/change the Pitch Bend value thru the Piano roll feature.
It is easy to do and you can do it graphically for each channel on which you want apply a pitch bend.

For your example of a detune of +5 cents, the Pitch bend value has to be set to 410BPU.

[dsvroland]

I'm probably just having a senior moment, but is there a way to set individual tuning on Song parts?

I mean, for example, having a synth line copied across two parts with one set +5c and the other -5c, to create a fat effect.

Thanks

Hi DerekA, you can do it easily by using XG sysex, I'm sharing a midi file with the effect you want, please verify the Tracks 3 and 4 when the midi starts.

43 10 4C 08 02 09 04 0E F7
43 10 4C 08 03 09 0B 02 F7

02 and 03 are the track = tracks: 3 and 4
04 0E and 0B 02 are -5C and +5C

https://psrbr.com/sharing/Jazz.zip

[Joe H]

MIDI song files support the fine tune, but that does not mean the Yamaha style format supports fine tune.  That's why I hope a programmer posts here on the issue.  I looked in MixMaster and didn't see an option for inserting sysex message.  I've also investigated the possibility of inserting a NRPN message for fine tune.  I don't see the option there.  I suspect that the style format does NOT support Fine Tune in indivdual style Parts/channels.

Joe H

[Luluc]

I looked in MixMaster and didn't see an option for inserting sysex message.

Joe H

Did you try this : MixMaster/Options/Edit User SysEx/Insert ?

[tyrosaurus]

The part tuning seems to be controlled in a MIDI by an RPN (Registered Parameter Number) at address MSB:00H  LSB:01H

See 'Fine Tune' in the table at the top of page 98 of the Genos Data List for details.

You can edit this setting in MixMaster but the program only seems to allow you to do this by using a 'slider', which is difficult to set accurately.

MixMaster shows the values in what I assume is decimal notation (?) with 0 being -100 cents, and 16256 representing +100 cents.

I did a simple test recording on Genos with the voice Tune (Fine Tune) for channel 1 set to 0, channel 2 set to -64 (= -100 cents) and channel 3 set to +64 (= +100 cents).   After saving, the resulting voices on those channels were detuned by -1 and +1 semitone as expected.

Using MixMaster I changed the Fine Tune RPN values for channels 2 and 3 and when played back on Genos, they were changed in line with the modifications made in MixMaster.

I then looked at the original song in Genos'  Song Creator, Step Edit.

The Fine tune events appear as follows:


Ctrl  101 value 0 = RPN MSB
Ctrl  100 value 1 = RPN LSB  (value was wrongly shown as 0 in original post, corrected by edit to post)! 
Ctrl   6    value 0-127 = Data MSB   (value 0 = -100 cents, 127 = +100 cents - set this to give required tuning).
Ctrl  38   value 0        = Data LSB

(Note that Song creator does not seem to add these events for channels that were recorded with 'normal' tuning, but a Data Value of 64 resets back to 'normal' if you want to reset a detuned channel).

I was able to edit the Ctrl 6 data value as required with the expected results, and even add multiple tunings throughout a channel by adding the full 4 event sequence at the relevant points.

This is not something that I am likely to want to do, so I'll leave it to you to work out the 'finer points'!   


Regards

Ian

[Luluc]

Hi DerekA, you can do it easily by using XG sysex, I'm sharing a midi file with the effect you want, please verify the Tracks 3 and 4 when the midi starts.

43 10 4C 08 02 09 04 0E F7
43 10 4C 08 03 09 0B 02 F7

https://psrbr.com/sharing/Jazz.zip

Just to be precise, mainly for the newbie people in SysEx, the right SysEx should be :

F0 43 10 4C 08 02 09 04 0E F7
F0 43 10 4C 08 03 09 0B 02 F7.

[dsvroland]

Just to be precise, mainly for the newbie people in SysEx, the right SysEx should be :

F0 43 10 4C 08 02 09 04 0E F7
F0 43 10 4C 08 03 09 0B 02 F7.

Yes it is, however, you need to make the modifications according to the track, in the example of the midi file are tracks 3 and 4 used.
I understood that DerekA asked for "Tuning on song parts" not "style parts.
However you can do with sysex in styles or midi files beyond what you think, tune a specific percussion, or even add an effect like Flanger that only affects one note of the track.

I like to use quality software like StyleMagic, a PlugIn in Cubase or Jørgen Sørensen’s amazing software.

About the MIDI File:

43 10 4C 08 02 09 04 0E F7
43 10 4C 08 03 09 0B 02 F7

02 and 03: are the tracks 3 and 4
04 0E and 0B 02: are the tune -5C and +5C


https://psrbr.com/sharing/Jazz.zip

[ckobu]

When you want to do something exotic on a Yamaha, XGWorks is always the solution. Use the Detune function for the channel you want to act on or Scale tunnig for each tone. This is a video showing how to make a MIDI Terce, but in it you will find a solution to a problem that DerekA has.

https://youtu.be/6Ng0PohxMcM

[Joe H]

My mistake... I see that Derek was asking about a song file and not a style file.

 

Joe H

[ckobu]

The video shows a universal entry. It can be for SONG or for Style. XGWorks does not care what kind of data it will affect. 

[Wim]

Hello CKOBU. Nice music by the demo video. But for me i goes to fast. with no explanation. It's like abacadabra
 Regards Wim

[Joe H]

The video shows a universal entry. It can be for SONG or for Style. XGWorks does not care what kind of data it will affect. 

XGWorks may not care, but if the Yamaha engineers wrote code to not allow Fine Tune in a style Part... then it won't work.  While the arranger keyboard is an XG instrument (almost), it doesn't support all XG commands.  I couldn't fine support for channel Fine Tune in either StyleMagic or MixMaster which are software specifically for style files.

Joe H

[ckobu]

@Wim
More abracadabra to me is this string of numbers 
F0 43 10 4C 08 02 09 04 0E F7
F0 43 10 4C 08 03 09 0B 02 F7.

The red box (Prt 003) means that the values affect all the notes on Channel 3
A green frame (Detune -11.0 Hz) means that all notes on Channel 3 are 1/4 ton lower.
Ignore the rest. This is what DerekA was looking for, He will only set Detune to the value he wants.

@Joe H
If the values do not exist in MixMaster or Style Magic, this does not mean that they cannot be entered by some third party program.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[dsvroland]

XGWorks may not care, but if the Yamaha engineers wrote code to not allow Fine Tune in a style Part... then it won't work.  While the arranger keyboard is an XG instrument (almost), it doesn't support all XG commands.  I couldn't fine support for channel Fine Tune in either StyleMagic or MixMaster which are software specifically for style files.

Joe H

I agree with you! The keyboard can support XG, but it depends on Yamaha engineers how it will be compatible with MIDIS and Styles.

Joe H, check please in StyleMagic the MP Detune: 43 10 4C 08 00 09 08 00 F7.

[dsvroland]

@Wim
More abracadabra to me is this string of numbers 
F0 43 10 4C 08 02 09 04 0E F7
F0 43 10 4C 08 03 09 0B 02 F7.

 

I started studying in 1997 at the age of 12 the XG and XF format, I had the PSR-730 keyboard. There were no forums, groups on the internet, in fact I had no internet. I took the physical manual, the XG Specifications, a scientific calculator and using XG-Works I started to understand.

It is not abracadabra, in fact hexadecimal numbers are simple to understand, each part, each pair of numbers indicates something.

[ckobu]

The SysEx string is the same in all programs, but XGWorks best displays it if we use the XG protocol.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Joe H]

ckobu,

You have missed my point. Yamaha has gone to great effort to keep us users from corrupting the operation of our arranger keyboards with experiments. That's why they are so reliable.  StyleMagic supports Master Fine Tune, but am not sure that is the same as channel fine tune.

An example of what I mean is we can edit drum kits to a great extent in the SInt Section of the style, but can't edit drum parameters in Main Sections or any other Sections.  Another example is the style file format does not support cc64 Sustain messages other than with Right-hand Voices.

Another example is the arranger does not support every MSB - LSB - PC message... only the Voices that are used by the keyboard. Same thing with sysex messages... only those XG sysex used by the keyboard.  If we try to write sysex or Voice messages not used by the keyboard, the OS will filter them out.

Our arrangers support most of the XG specification, but not every XG message is supported. I've tried many experiments over the years only to fail (before I understood how the arranger was designed)  BTW... I've been programming MIDI for about 30 years.

If you wish you can prove me wrong by trying to insert a Detune (fine tune) message in a style file and see if it works. I'm not inclined  to try it because I don't have a need to do it.  Many of the Voices are deliberately out of tune with each other to simulate the real world where in an orchestra not all instruments are perfectly tuned.

Joe H

[ckobu]

I get what you want to say. From my experience so far, Tyros, PSR, Genos does not filter Detune.
I'll do a test tomorrow and get back to you.

[Joe H]

The part tuning seems to be controlled in a MIDI by an RPN (Registered Parameter Number) at address MSB:00H  LSB:01H...

I agree with what you state. It appears that if we insert a Fine Tune RPN message in a specific channel / style part using MixMaster, it might work. I have no need to try it because I've never experienced a style part Voice so out of tune that its offensive.  Fine Tune is available in the Mixing Console for R1, R2, and R3 Voices... which I use all the time along Octave shift and Pan when layering right-hand Voices.

Joe H

[Luluc]

The Fine tune events appear as follows:


Ctrl  101 value 0 = RPN MSB
Ctrl  100 value 0 = RPN LSB
Ctrl   6    value 0-127 = Data MSB   (value 0 = -100 cents, 127 = +100 cents - set this to give required tuning).
Ctrl  38   value 0        = Data LSB

Ian

To be precise : for a Channel Fine Tune function, the RPN LSB value has  to be 1 and not 0.

[tyrosaurus]

To be precise : for a Channel Fine Tune function, the RPN LSB value has  to be 1 and not 0.

Luluc, you are correct, and I thought that I had changed it when I edited my post last night!  Obviously not!  I have edited it again, hopefully correctly this time!

Thanks for pointing it out, in case someone actually tries using this method.


Regards

Ian

[ckobu]

I did the test. Detune acts individually on each MIDI channel. That is, if DerekA needs to be -5cent at 3 channels, set the detune to -1.1Hz.
The SysEX string would look like this 43 10 4C 08 02 09 07 05 F7

This is how it sounds when three tones c, d, e but with different detune are played in MIDI - / + 12.8Hz
https://app.box.com/s/9dzte4i9plk200g72cf2rtysva0za0xk

[Joe H]

Thanks for your efforts ckobu,

I decided to try this myself. First I tested it on MU128 sound module. Then I created a special MIDI configuration on my S970 to receive on Port 1 all style Parts and write the string on my hardware controller.

F0 = Exclusive
43 = Yamaha ID
10 = Device number
4C = Model number (XG instrument)
08 = Multi Part Parameter Change
nn = 00-0F (channel 1 to channel 16)
09 = Multi Part Detune
vv = MSB value  (This is a 2-byte format - 2 byte Nibs High to low with a range of 0 to 255)
vv = LSB value 
F7 = End Exclusive

By writing this string to a fader I was able to change the Fine Tune real-time and hear the changes on any selected style Part as I move the fader.

One thing to keep in mind is that some style Parts use an alternate channel for Major/Minor chords/phrases.  So... if you change the tuning for channel 14 (Chord 2) you may have to change the tuning on channel 5 as well.

 

Joe H

[Luluc]

By writing this string to a fader I was able to change the Fine Tune real-time and hear the changes on any selected style Part as I move the fader.

Joe H

That is great, how can we do that ?

[Joe H]

That is great, how can we do that ?

I explained it above... You have to have a programmable software or hardware MIDI controller that supports sysex and 1 data byte and all 2 data byte formats... or you can just write the strings in a style Part with MixMaster. You will have to experiment that way to get the right amount of + or - tuning.

Joe H

[Joe H]

Here's some help with the 2 data byte values for those who want to write the strings in MixMaster or in a DAW like XGWorks.

Tuning cents values (in hexadecimal):

   0 = 08 00
+.1 = 08 01
+.2 = 08 02
+.3 = 08 03
+.4 = 08 04
+.5 = 08 05
+.6 = 08 06
+.7 = 08 07
+.8 = 08 08

-.1 = 07 0F
-.2 = 07 0E
-.3 = 07 0D
-.4 = 07 0C
-.5 = 07 0B
-.6 = 07 0A
-.7 = 07 09
-.8 = 07 08

Hope this helps.

Joe H

[Luluc]

Joe,
Data Sysex : Valuable information for experimenting the fine detune feature !

Have you some examples of models of hardware MIDI controllers that supports sysex and 1 data byte and all 2 data byte formats ?

[Joe H]

I have a legacy Peavey controller like this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Peavey-PC-1600X-MIDI-COMMAND-STATION-v-2-21-software-with-Power-Supply-RARE/223823128747?epid=734172298&hash=item341ce5e8ab:g:ipwAAOSwWzddbR20

The PC1600x supports all data formats and checksum formats too. I bought editing software, but I don't know if it is still available.

They are hard to find and not cheap.  But you can write the strings yourself (I believe) with MixMaster.  That's why I gave those values as a reference point.

Joe H