Topic: Sound difference YEM vs Genos

[alfaholic]

Hello everyone,

There is an obvious difference when a wav file is played through YEM (or any other software that plays or edit audio files) and then played through Genos. For example, the same kick drum sounds differently in YEM and Genos. The same happens with PSR as well, as those basically have the same base underneath.
Not only that, but entire filter section with resonance does not work the same in YEM and Genos/PSR. For example, filter section in YEM can go very low to 20hz and it allows HPF to be used, however when transfered into Genos or PSR the same key sounds totally different, first of all the filter frequency does not go as low as in YEM, also Genos and PSR do not have ability to use HPF, only LPF.

But let  alone filters, why the keyboard ads 2.5db at 60hz by default? Is this some Yamaha's trick to make their keyboards sound thicker than others? I know Roland introduced some LPF at their E-A7 so they made it sound more like analog tape and it worked brilliantly, but this actually sounds bad also it makes sample mixing and producing very difficult because everything is done in YEM where all PCM files sound correct.

Does anyone knows the reason for all of this?

[Lee Batchelor]

Hello everyone,

There is an obvious difference when a wave file is played through YEM (or any other software that plays or edit audio files) and then played through Genos. For example, the same kick drum sounds differently in YEM and Genos. The same happens with PSR as well, as those basically have the same base underneath.
Not only that, but the entire filter section with resonance does not work the same in YEM and Genos/PSR. For example, filter section in YEM can go very low to 20hz and it allows HPF to be used, however when transferred into Genos or PSR the same key sounds totally different, first of all, the filter frequency does not go as low as in YEM, also Genos and PSR do not have the ability to use HPF, only LPF.

But let alone filters, why the keyboard ads 2.5db at 60hz by default? Is this some Yamaha's trick to make their keyboards sound thicker than others? I know Roland introduced some LPF at their E-A7 so they made it sound more like analog tape and it worked brilliantly, but this actually sounds bad also it makes sample mixing and producing very difficult because everything is done in YEM where all PCM files sound correct.

Does anyone know the reason for all of this?

Could this lack of an LPF be the reason I'm having such a hard time getting consistent bass from my Genos? I'm still fighting this. The LPF on my sub is set at 35 Hz, plenty of room to produce a full range electric bass with an open E string. And yet, some of the mid-bass and upper bass just dies. Not so with a real bass guitar, which the Genos should be able to mimic perfectly.

[alfaholic]

Your problem is mostly due to acoustics. The other reason is the factory bass guitars from Genos are nothing special and they are far from a real bass guitar, but it is mostly acoustics.
My suggestion is to use Master EQ on your mixer every time you set your gear on stage and solve the problems with room acoustics, it is explained here:

https://youtu.be/ujtABfcFDKo

Also you should set your styles bass guitar to play lower than E string, the best results are achieved when bass guitar is played from C0 to C1. Also investing a little in some great custom made sampled bass guitar will bring you more quality and clarity.

But the problem with this YEM vs keyboard difference is heard only if you create your custom sounds. In this case you prepare your samples by mixing and creating the sound you want, then import them into YEM and create envelopes, filters, and all other settings, just to find out in the end that Genos does not reproduce the same audio material identically. This is very problematic when sampling bass guitars, and kick drums as Genos/PSR ads few decibels at 60hz.
The lack of HPF is problem because YEM lacks an EQ for every element, the filter could be use as an EQ but that is not possible still.

[EileenL]

There is an update to YEM on its way with the new keyboard update. Maybe this will do more what you want.

[alfaholic]

Thanks, but I doubt it. This is something integrated in every keyboard. YEM works fine, the keyboards are different.

[Lee Batchelor]

Thanks for the input on bass guitars, Alfaholic.

Strangely enough, on my earlier Tyros 2, 4, and 5 keyboards, this was never a problem. The bass was consistent and of pretty good quality. The Genos requires way too much "fiddling" to get a decent bass sound for concerts. Not only do you need to adjust for each venue, which is normal, but each song has its individual needs, depending on the key and whether or not bass megavoices are used. Personally, I still think the bass megavoices are completely unreliable for live playing, even though they are supposed to mimic the real thing better than any previous models .

I only have one more option. I could try investing in a dedicated bass head for driving my subwoofer. I was thinking of the GK-MB200 https://www.long-mcquade.com/8528/Guitars/Bass_Amps/Gallien-Krueger/Microbass_200-Watt_Head.htm.

I played a bass guitar through my sub using this amp and the salesman wanted to know who designed and built the sub. He was astounded at the sound he heard, so it's not my speaker design. I'm currently driving it with a Behringer power amp that has built-in crossovers and filters. Perhaps it's the culprit.

Sorry if I have drifted a bit off-topic but this is all related to getting the best sound out of the Genos. I'll stop here and add this info to my existing thread on the subject, if needed. Thanks all !

[KeyboardByBiggs]

Not only do you need to adjust for each venue, which is normal, but each song has its individual needs, depending on the key

If you're hearing the same things I'm dealing with I believe it's mostly a combination of room acoustics and that the various bass samples have different frequency content, which resonate at different frequencies causing loudness "hot spots."

My next step, if it's possible, is to send all bass audio out of a dedicated output and run that through a pro-level compressor to see if that alone could even out a lot of the frequency differences. It just might do the trick for keeping the levels more closely matched and controlled.

I would often use this in the recording studio to tame instruments with frequency hot spots or players who always played one string harder or softer than the others. It just might work in this case.

I think the only other choice is to customize the styles you use and change out the offending bass voices. Of course, you could always patch through an external stereo EQ and reduce the offending frequencies as they happen.

If it's predictable, I wonder about changing the master EQ in the Genos and saving that as part of a registration where required?

[Lee Batchelor]

Very interesting, Biggs...You explained the problem very well.

The highs, lows, and sudden booms drive me insane. I have no problem routing the bass track via one of the sub outs, but the HUGE issue is there is no external software that I know of, where that setting can be done very quickly on a PC. Doing that on the Genos with over 250 registrations is a sick joke. I should live that long!

I can try using the onboard compressor but that setting is so dependant on the room. Clearly, the Genos is a fantastic machine for home players but needs a lot of help when it comes to live venues. I know Yamaha doesn't flog it in the market as a "gigging machine" per se, but they sure put lots of "gigging" sounds and features into her!!

[jwyvern]

If it's predictable, I wonder about changing the master EQ in the Genos and saving that as part of a registration where required?

Registrations can't be used to save Master EQ. There is a 3Band EQ DSP (in the EQ and Comp group) which has a Q setting in the mid range that can be set on individual style or panel voices and perhaps could be used to home in on rogue frequencies. That would be saveable in registrations.

John

[Lee Batchelor]

Oops! You're right John. I had forgotten about the Master EQ section not being savable to a registration - hence the word, "Master" .

That still leaves a very big problem when dealing with all the variants in the Genos bass lines. I can't think of a way to tame these beasts with just one setting. The frequencies and gains are all over the map - so much that you can't just select an EQ that works.

Once again, my apologies to the OP for wandering off track somewhat .

[Normanfernandez]

Why does Yamaha Have a Parameter Lock Page. " Master EQ"
And it doesn't work. 


[attachment deleted by admin]

[overover]

Why does Yamaha Have a Parameter Lock Page. " Master EQ"
And it doesn't work.

Hi Norman,

the Master EQ setting can NOT be memorized to (or changed by) Registrations, directly.

But MIDI files CAN contain Master EQ settings (SysEx). And if the "Master EQ" checkbox in "Parameter Lock" is ticked (= default), this will protect the current Master EQ settings from unintended changes by MIDI files.

Unfortunately, Master EQ settings (SysEx) can NOT be written to MIDI files directly on the Keyboard. But this can be done easiliy with the "Midifile Optimizer" (Version X or XI):

https://www.midiland.de





Note: The "Optimizer" must be restarted after ticking the "Master EQ" checkbox so that this new setting can be used!


P.S.
I do NOT use (and also NOT recommend to use) this feature (changing the Master EQ setting by MIDI files). I ALWAYS have set the Master EQ to FLAT (on Tyros5 and also on Genos), and I never had any problems with this setting.

But I do NOT use the original T5 or Genos speakers. At home, I use Yamaha Studio Monitors (2 * MSP5 + 1 * HS8S Sub) or Headphones (AKG K712 Pro). When play publicly, I always use an external Mixer between the Keyboard and the PA.

Best regards,
Chris

[Normanfernandez]

I need took for the System Exclusive Chat for Master EQ

[overover]

I need took for the System Exclusive Chat for Master EQ

Unfortunately I don't understand.

Can you say this in other words and / or more detailed, please?

[Normanfernandez]

Sysex Chart ( Table)
For making changes. 

Auto type make it ( Chat)

[overover]

Sysex Chart ( Table)
For making changes. 

Auto type make it ( Chat)

Hi Norman,

now I understand.

You can find the Master EQ (MEQ) SysEx messages in the Genos DATA LIST book, page 102, "MIDI Parameter Change table (MULTI EQ)".

The SysEx for the MEQ preset "Flat" is:

F0 43 10 4C 02 40 00 00 F7  MultiEQ Type= Flat


The other presets are realized by sending the SysEx for MEQ Flat first, followed by the parameters that are different to the Flat setting.

In case of the Genos MEQ preset "Bright", these SysEx are used:

F0 43 10 4C 02 40 00 00 F7  MultiEQ Type= Flat
F0 43 10 4C 02 40 02 0E F7  MultiEQ EQ Freq 1 = 14
F0 43 10 4C 02 40 05 3F F7  MultiEQ EQ Gain 2 = 63
F0 43 10 4C 02 40 09 42 F7  MultiEQ EQ Gain 3 = 66
F0 43 10 4C 02 40 0A 26 F7  MultiEQ EQ Freq 3 = 38
F0 43 10 4C 02 40 0B 11 F7  MultiEQ EQ Q3 = 17
F0 43 10 4C 02 40 0D 41 F7  MultiEQ EQ Gain 4 = 65
F0 43 10 4C 02 40 11 43 F7  MultiEQ EQ Gain 5 = 67
F0 43 10 4C 02 40 12 33 F7  MultiEQ EQ Freq 5 = 51
F0 43 10 4C 02 40 20 3F F7  MultiEQ
F0 43 10 4C 02 40 24 3E F7  MultiEQ
F0 43 10 4C 02 40 25 20 F7  MultiEQ
F0 43 10 4C 02 40 29 22 F7  MultiEQ


Hope this helps!


Best regards,
Chris