Author Topic: "Accidental" measures of different signatures in a variation  (Read 13434 times)

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Offline Seagull29

"Accidental" measures of different signatures in a variation
« on: October 30, 2019, 08:12:16 PM »
As you have probably noticed, the Tyros 5 and Genos do not allow to have, in a variation, signature measures different from the original signature of the style. Even even, one can not give different rhythmic signatures to each variation. And sometimes we have, in a 4/4 piece, a 2/4 or 3/4 measure that arrives and that shifts the times of the variation. So, to answer the question of the beginning, here is a very small example under This form of a variation of 4 measures is written as follows: 1 measure at 4/4, 1 measure at 2/4, 1 measure at 4/4 and 1 measure at 3/4. On the variation, ALL the measures are at 4/4, the cymbal marking the 1st beat of each of them, the notes played are black (easier to find the times), but the tempo list is decomposed as follows:
- measure 1 = 100
- measure 2 = 200
- measure 3 = 100
- measure 4 = 133
The trick, in fact for the 2 accidental measures is, for the 2/4, to double the events (here the black becomes white) and to double the Tempo, and for the 3/4, to duplicate the events by quantizing them in ternary (here, to have 3 black, it is necessary to write a triplet of white) and by adding a value equal to 1/3 of the tempo to this one, in this case, 33 points (roughly, 100/3)
Of course, this gymnastics can only be done using a DAW, here it is Cubase Element, whose Tempo list is recognized by the Tyros or Genos. And, in the variations, this is perfectly the case, as in the sequencer, by the way.
So, since a style is only a midi file at the base, just copy the style on a USB key, change the extension ".sty" to ".mid", load it in the DAW (I recommend Cubase), make changes to tempo and, possibly, events as well as quantization and save everything. Once done, we put the extension ".sty" and you're done.
If only for the possibilities of tempo, it allows the slow ones in a variation and to take again the initial tempo on unbreak or on the following variation. Some songs are better at being less linear and it really personalizes the style. And it's applicable to all styles.
Here is a little tutorial that can serve those who want to go a little further and stand out a little.
Good evening and have fun.
Seagull29
 

Offline EileenL

Re: "Accidental" measures of different signatures in a variation
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2019, 12:47:25 PM »
You will be able to do this with Style Reset which will be on the new update for Genos. Works well on the SX900.

Offline Seagull29

Re: "Accidental" measures of different signatures in a variation
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2019, 08:12:13 PM »
Hello,
 I'm not sure because this new fonction restarts the style at the beginning of the current measure and not the next measure, so that if we make a variation with a precise number of measures and after the accidental measure there is a riff or a gimmick, it must add a measure to the variation. In the case of a song style, it can be embarrassing. It would have been more logical if, after using this function, we go directly to the first beat of the next measure, but that is not the case from the explanations.
So, my system is, in my humble opinion, the only one way who can solve this problem. Which also proves that, somewhere, the designers of our arrangers are far from being users and especially are only engineers, not musicians.
Have a nice evening
Seagull29
 

Offline mikf

Re: "Accidental" measures of different signatures in a variation
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2019, 09:09:41 PM »
Hello,
......... the designers of our arrangers are far from being users and especially are only engineers, not musicians.
Maybe, but there are many great musicians involved in the Yamaha design and marketing teams who understand this.
I have been a musician for over 60 years, a working musician for quite a lot of them, but never really came across the need for this more than once or twice in playing popular music. And when it came up, - a couple of Lloyd Webber pieces spring to mind as examples- I found that it was easy to just stretch the bars required to fit the overall beat. No one ever really noticed. So I think it more than likely the reason this is not available on the arranger is that the most common use of the arranger is to play western popular music and it is not a pressing need.   
Mike

Offline Seagull29

Re: "Accidental" measures of different signatures in a variation
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2019, 12:02:11 PM »
Hello,
Well on, I do not deny the fact but I'd like that anyone  explain to me why, on an instrument like Genos, presented as a revolutionary and as the "nec + ultra" keyboards arranger, it lacks functions that are present on its competitors and were already present on keyboards arranger more than 15 years ago!
On the other hand, some ergonomic details prove that the designers are not necessarily regular users (ex: the place of the multipads on the Genos).
And there is not only popular western music, there is also variety where this kind of accidental measures exist like, for example, Heart of Glass (measures in 4/4 and 3/4 in the first chorus ). And it's not the only one.
Good WE
Seagull29
 

Offline mikf

Re: "Accidental" measures of different signatures in a variation
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2019, 08:27:47 PM »
Yamaha are the market leader by a long way, so they would argue they must have it mostly right. Having every feature known to man, no matter how much or little it is used by the customers, adds cost but does not necessarily drive enough additional sales to justify that added cost. It can be a business decision, not musical ignorance. And even in your own case they seem to be correct, because it did not appear to drive your keyboard decision.
I would say Heart of Glass is popular western music and as I say these things occur here and but they are not common, and in all honesty most cover bands ignore them and stretch the bar to remain conventional. I think most of these incidental meter changes as trying to be clever for the sake of it, rather than necessary musically.
 


Offline Seagull29

Re: "Accidental" measures of different signatures in a variation
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2019, 08:43:32 PM »
Interesting answer, especially on your last remark but I do not adhere. By simplifying, we lose all originality and it is a kind of laziness that is installed for both the listener and the musician. In my 50 years of working in music, I have always respected the songs played, with their accidents of rhythmic signatures, if only out of respect for the composer.
Now, everyone does what he wants and, as we say in France "see noon at his door" but that music and instruments are designed for money, it makes me sad or more, it disgusts me.
And decidedly, Yamaha has changed since the release of its revolutionary synths, taking the buyers of their arrangers keyboard as a wallet and only that.
Have a nice week end
and greetings
Seagull29
 

Offline mikf

Re: "Accidental" measures of different signatures in a variation
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2019, 12:22:04 AM »
Its not about simplifying, its about prioritizing. Both for Yamaha in their designs and for the working musician.
No cover version can be perfect, for a start you dont have the original vocalist. For a working musician playing 4 hours of covers, the aim is to entertain, not to get detailed perfect copies. If you want that, then you can just play the original.  In the context of playing 4 hours of covers for an evening, to worry about whether one bar of 4 beats should have been 3 beats, which lasts about 1/4 a second, seems bit ridiculous to me.   

Offline markstyles

Re: "Accidental" measures of different signatures in a variation
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2019, 08:30:00 PM »
I use my Genos with Logic Pro mostly..  Occasionally I write pieces with an odd bar of time signature..  In these cases, I record the part in 4/4 time from Genos into Logic..  I then chop off the last beat of each measure, adjust time signature in Logic for those  bars that are different.

I have a folder of Tyros odd time signatures, but the styles aren't that great..  If, and I guess it does,  Update 2.0.  will fix that situation..  I have found most songs with a bar or too of an odd time signature not to be a problem when redoing 4/4.. When playing live, you can certainly get away with minor issues, fluffs, etc, because it goes by and is over.  When  it is recorded and you get to listen to it many times, you might hear things, that might be different or improved. 

I am not saying you don't have a valid issue.  Indeed Classical music makes drastic changes to tempo, volume, time signatures.  Most pop, standards, etc,  stick to the most popular time signatures.   

The point with any product, there is a very precise calculated balance of features and price. Yamaha has been very wise in pricing their instruments (yeah I'd love to see Genos cheaper). I have no idea, how much $$$ it would cost for Yamaha to rewrite the code to include this feature.  Bear in mind, the Operating system for Genos, and any instrument has to fit on the EEPROM, flash ram, or whatever they use to hold the OS

  But the point is - you get what you pay for.  There is certainly a large list of features users would like to see in their Genos.  But it will come at a cost.   If the Genos was $2000 more I would probably not buy it. 

In 2005, Korg, released a very high end kbd. The Oasys $10,000.  It was a wonderful machine, had several methods of sound generation.. Like the Genos, Korg built Oasys with a bunch of new ideas, to see if buyers were very interested.  At the time there was no way I could justify paying that much.  They didn't sell that many.  A  couple of years later, you could get one for $5,000.  I toyed with the idea for a week. But realized the technology in it was pretty old  at that point, and there would obviously be no updates to it.   I bought a  Triton, which had the 'Karma' software I was interested in.
 

Offline mikf

Re: "Accidental" measures of different signatures in a variation
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2019, 01:02:48 AM »
Mark - you are so right. It’s a balance. People often think that incremental features come at almost no cost. But nothing comes cheap when you are a major corporation and striking the right balance between features and price is key to survival in business.
Mike

Offline Seagull29

Re: "Accidental" measures of different signatures in a variation
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2019, 01:58:12 PM »
Hello,
Except that in the Pa4x, we can affiliate different signatures with each variation and that the Roland G70 allowed to include, in the style creator, different rhythmic signatures inside the variations because the syle creator was conceived like a DAW.
Admittedly, it is expensive to develop new features (still that Korg allows itself updates on its high-end without that increases the price of these if one purchases them new)  but Yamaha, with the Tyros and Genos, did not have an OS as powerful as some competitors, however, cheaper.
Their choice was rather, in my opinion, out of plug & play instruments addressing a customer less specialized and looking for easy use without the need for advanced features. This is defended but, compared to some competing products, it's a bit expensive, though, it must be recognized, the sound of these instruments is excellent.
 It's a marketting choice.
 

Offline Janus

Re: "Accidental" measures of different signatures in a variation
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2019, 05:12:02 PM »
A keyboard is a computer and plays in strict tempo
jou have to follow that tempo
why can't they make software in the keyboards that follows your tempo
I make chordtracks for different tempo's and measures in XgWorks
included intro's variations and endings
Load these midi's in the keyboard, assing it to the keyboard arranger
now jou got both hand free to play like the bass and right's with a split
or piano style
« Last Edit: November 04, 2019, 05:19:53 PM by Janus »
 

Offline mikf

Re: "Accidental" measures of different signatures in a variation
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2019, 06:34:23 PM »
Janus
The term 'strict tempo' doesnt mean what you say. It has to do with playing strictly the notes on the beat exactly as written, whereas many musicians use musical feel to play in phrases, not exactly as written. But they do so over a constant fixed tempo - even in jazz.
 I don't consider that arrangers play a fixed tempo because they are computers. They do so because that is how music works. Bands are not computers, but they also usually play a fixed tempo unless following rubato leads. Even when they change tempo it is to a second fixed tempo, not a constantly floating tempo. 
 It has a second connotation for dancers where Strict Tempo means adhering to the recognized competition tempo for a specific dance.
I think what you are really asking for is a 'floating tempo' - I am inventing that term! You seem to want the accompaniment to float in tempo depending on what you decide to play. Kind of like rubato playing but with varying electronic accompaniment speed.
 I am not sure how possible that would be, but it doesn't seem practical to me, or something that musicians would normally want.   
Mike
 

Offline Janus

Re: "Accidental" measures of different signatures in a variation
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2019, 07:00:12 PM »
i mean the left hand has to play strict on the beat to follow the clock
with the recht hand you are more free to swing or play for of after the beat
And when it is possible to assign the tempo controler to a volume footpedal
is that a good resolution
« Last Edit: November 04, 2019, 07:16:01 PM by Janus »
 

Offline mikf

Re: "Accidental" measures of different signatures in a variation
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2019, 07:32:41 PM »
i mean the left hand has to play strict on the beat to follow the clock.......
Janus - what I was saying is that that is always the case, not just with an arranger. And what do you mean by strict ?? because there is a little leeway even on the arranger for fingering chords. But the drumbeat will stay constant and on the beat, and so will the bass. But that is always the case whether its a live band or the arranger. So I am not sue what you are trying to do.
Mike
 

Offline Jørgen

Re: "Accidental" measures of different signatures in a variation
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2019, 07:38:35 PM »
Hi

From http://www.jososoft.dk/yamaha/articles/style2_9.htm

The Yamaha style format does only allow one Time Signature in a style.

However some songs in 4/4 require a 2/4-break; and some songs (e.g. Granada) have two main parts: one in 4/4 and one in 3/4.

A solution might have been to insert new Time Signature MIDI events in the beginning of the parts which have different Time Signatures.

But the keyboard does not read these!

Consider this simplified style:
• Main A is in 4/4 time
• Fill In AA is in 2/4 time
• Main B is in 4/4 time

To make this work, follow these steps:
• Change all notes in Fill In AA to double value (e.g. quarter notes to half notes).
• Move note start to the double tick value (e.g. notes at "2" in 2/4 must be moved to "3" in 4/4).
• Insert a MIDI Tempo Event with the double tempo as the FIRST event in Fill In AA (e.g. 240 if the "normal" tempo is 120).
• Insert a MIDI Tempo Event with the "normal" tempo as the FIRST event in ALL other parts which must play in "normal" tempo

The keyboard reads tempo changes, and will always play in the last tempo given.

Therefore you MUST add the "normal" tempo to ALL other parts as the FIRST event in these style parts (right after the Part Marker). Otherwise the keyboard will continue playing in the "abnormal" tempo when another style part is selected.

These changes must be done in sequencer software
OR my Style Half Bar Fill Creator software OR my Style Time Editor software.

Regards
Jørgen
The Unofficial YAMAHA Keyboard Resource Site at http://www.jososoft.dk/yamaha
- since 1999
 

Offline Seagull29

Re: "Accidental" measures of different signatures in a variation
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2019, 12:12:29 PM »
i mean the left hand has to play strict on the beat to follow the clock
with the recht hand you are more free to swing or play for of after the beat
And when it is possible to assign the tempo controler to a volume footpedal
is that a good resolution

Hello, just a little example to show what I mean. Beat is regular but Time Signature change in this. It's what I explain in my first post. Try this file on your keyboard.
Regards
Seaagull29
« Last Edit: November 05, 2019, 12:15:03 PM by Seagull29 »
 

Offline Janus

Re: "Accidental" measures of different signatures in a variation
« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2019, 01:04:10 PM »
Janus - what I was saying is that that is always the case, not just with an arranger. And what do you mean by strict ?? because there is a little leeway even on the arranger for fingering chords. But the drumbeat will stay constant and on the beat, and so will the bass. But that is always the case whether its a live band or the arranger. So I am not sue what you are trying to do.
Mike
The left hand must be strict on the beat
When you play for of after the beat all the notes are cutoff on that place
leaves little cut off notes in the track
you can hear that
try to record with only a piano voice in the style
By replay you can hear those cutoff notes
It is a hell of a job to remove them
 

Offline panos

Re: "Accidental" measures of different signatures in a variation
« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2019, 01:36:29 PM »
Hi Janus,
Are your recording a midi on the keyboard and hear these notes that shouldn't be there or on a DAW at your Pc?
Not what you see on the screen.What you hear and if you are feelling that is a "bad" playing or not.
The machine can show notes on a digital sheet but cannot show the effects of those notes on the sheet music that a player can hear which makes to play the he plays and not a "midi" type of playing.

If accidental changes are so important  we can try to use the Synchro stop button.

The new feature of tempo reset will work just fine with the above example song of Blondie.
It is a 4/4 melody part in which they have just cut the last notes to create that filling that eventually they will play them.

Offline Seagull29

Re: "Accidental" measures of different signatures in a variation
« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2019, 01:55:06 PM »
Hi,
Admittedly, the new Style Reset function can be useful only on the condition that you do not have a riff or gimmick after the accidental measure because, from what I understand, we start again at the beginning of the current measure and not on the first beat of the next measure, so that it adds a measure to the variation, therefore, does not solve the problem.
On the other hand, if the variation is purely rhythmic, without a special musical phrase, this function fulfills its role perfectly.
Regards
Seagull29