Topic: Using the Genos drawbars to controll an external instrument..

[Bachus]

I keep wondering why its not possible to assign a midi CC (any one) to sliders or knobs?

It would make turning the Genos into a true master keyboard so much simpler..

[ugawoga]

Hi
Add VST and Cubase  to the Genos and  sky's the limit.
All the best
John

[Bachus]

Hi
Add VST and Cubase  to the Genos and  sky's the limit.
All the best
John

Well, if you tell me how to make the drawbars on the genos controll cubase and my vst organ inside Cubase...  by default they dont send midi

[jwyvern]

Well, if you tell me how to make the drawbars on the genos controll cubase and my vst organ inside Cubase...  by default they dont send midi

They are likely to send midi internally otherwise how else can they influence the voice parts they are set up to modify? In the simplest case if you move the slider that is set up to control R1 volume can you detect cc volume changes occuring at midi out? I have not gone into all the detail but if I do the above the Transmit monitor light in the All Parts Template comes on when the slider moves. (Make sure the CC transmit is ticked in the template, in All Parts it is by default).
John

[Bachus]

They are likely to send midi internally otherwise how else can they influence the voice parts they are set up to modify? In the simplest case if you move the slider that is set up to control R1 volume can you detect cc volume changes occuring at midi out? I have not gone into all the detail but if I do the above the Transmit monitor light in the All Parts Template comes on when the slider moves. (Make sure the CC transmit is ticked in the template, in All Parts it is by default).
John

Yes it sends the CC of the selected parameter.. but not when used for channel volume... nor when used as an organ drawbar..

[Joe H]

I keep wondering why its not possible to assign a midi CC (any one) to sliders or knobs?

It would make turning the Genos into a true master keyboard so much simpler..

I think Yamaha missed a great opportunity by not allowing us to assign ANY MIDI message to those sliders and knobs both hardware and on screen... and transmit them over MIDI.  They still are not in touch with the "new" (next generation) arranger buyer.  As I recently stated in another thread... Yamaha do make some big mistakes.

 

Joe H

[ton37]

I think Yamaha missed a great opportunity by not allowing us to assign ANY MIDI message to those sliders and knobs both hardware and on screen... and transmit them over MIDI.  They still are not in touch with the "new" (next generation) arranger buyer.  As I recently stated in another thread... Yamaha do make some big mistakes.

 

Joe H

Mmmm ... maybe that are no mistakes, but a business philosophy to continue to exist in the future? When they would make the 110% perfect arranger … who wants to buy the next model??

[Bachus]

I think Yamaha missed a great opportunity by not allowing us to assign ANY MIDI message to those sliders and knobs both hardware and on screen... and transmit them over MIDI.  They still are not in touch with the "new" (next generation) arranger buyer.  As I recently stated in another thread... Yamaha do make some big mistakes.

 

Joe H

They missed an opportunity..

But i think its more about Yamaha’s mindset of Arrangers as stand alone tools for players that dont need/want to connect to other instruments/daws and such..

This belongs in the same chapter as not having a pianoroll editor onboard, or having the indepth edditing features as part of Yem..   

Its all about how Yamaha still sees arrangers, more like a hobby then a professional instrument.
Which probably suits the majoreity of Genos owners just as well

[voodoo]

Some time ago I made some experiments using the sliders. I came to the following result:

The sliders DO send midi signals when used as drawbar sliders. However, they send a complex midi sysex command containing the values of all sliders in one message. I could read the values using a programmable midi app on the iPad. But for controlling external devices or programs, this is not suited.

So, we cannot assign arbitrary midi CC commands to the sliders. However, many of the assignable functions DO send midi CC commands. There are two possible settings:

Use the setting where the sliders change the volume if the song parts. So they send CC#7 on different midi channels. This is the easiest way, because this setting exists. Of course it is not so easy to receive midi messages on all channels for one devices.

The second way would be to select those parameters that do send midi CC messages, all on the same midi channel. I think about the standard parameters like modulation (1), volume (7), expression (11), reverb (91), chorus (92) and so on. If the target device is configurable or has Midi-Lern you could use these messages to control what you need.

Of course the the midi configuration of the Genos must bet set according to the needs. Perhaps use the commands on the part right 3 and set local off for this part, or something like this. But I think, it should be possible. Experts like Joe, PJD or Bachus will find a solution.

Uli

P.S: I cannot try this on my Genos in this moment. I will report a practical example later.

[Joe H]

In my experiments, opening Voice Set you can send those MIDI messages over MIDI.  It's not as convenient as using the hardware sliders, but it works. But it's limited to the channels for Left, R1, R2 and R3.

Joe H

[Joe H]

... But i think its more about Yamaha’s mindset of Arrangers as stand alone tools for players that dont need/want to connect to other instruments/daws and such...

... Its all about how Yamaha still sees arrangers, more like a hobby then a professional instrument.

I agree with your assessment, that's why I have an external hardware MIDI controller. I can write ANY MIDI message to the 16 faders and 16 buttons.

Joe H

[pjd]

I did some experiments sending drawbar control messages to PSR/Genos using an Arduino-based controller. As Uli mentioned, you need to build and send a SysEx message which contains all of the drawbar voice settings including attack, length, etc. The extra settings make it really difficult to sync the state of an external controller with tone generation in the PSR/Genos.

It is much easier to program for the Reface YC, which has each drawbar and parameter on a separate MIDI CC message.

I don't have Genos available for experiments (4 more weeks until our stuff comes out of storage). However, does Genos send the MIDI CC message for whatever is currently assigned to a slider or knob? I doubt if Genos does the right thing when it's in drawbar mode, but maybe when something other than drawbar level is currently assigned? [Gosh, I wish I could try this right now.  ]

All the best -- pj

[Dromeus]

However, does Genos send the MIDI CC message for whatever is currently assigned to a slider or knob? I doubt if Genos does the right thing when it's in drawbar mode, but maybe when something other than drawbar level is currently assigned?

Yes, depending on the function assigned to a knob or slider, Genos will send the appropriate MIDI CC or Sysex message. If in drawbar mode the sliders will send the "Organ Flutes Data Bulk Dump" sysex as specified in  the datalist p. 113.

Cheers, Michael

[Bachus]

I did some experiments sending drawbar control messages to PSR/Genos using an Arduino-based controller. As Uli mentioned, you need to build and send a SysEx message which contains all of the drawbar voice settings including attack, length, etc. The extra settings make it really difficult to sync the state of an external controller with tone generation in the PSR/Genos.

It is much easier to program for the Reface YC, which has each drawbar and parameter on a separate MIDI CC message.

I don't have Genos available for experiments (4 more weeks until our stuff comes out of storage). However, does Genos send the MIDI CC message for whatever is currently assigned to a slider or knob? I doubt if Genos does the right thing when it's in drawbar mode, but maybe when something other than drawbar level is currently assigned? [Gosh, I wish I could try this right now.  ]

All the best -- pj

Yes it sends cc for most things..assigned
But not the channel volume(which makes me asume its not cc7)
Also not for drawbars, and thats probably because as you explained drawbars are sys-ex in the yamaha world...


Leaves me still with my orriginal question
Why not being able to assign CC/channel to sliders and knobs?

That would make live so simple..
Now we need as Joe said a 2nd midi controller to controll external devices with some convenience

[Joe H]

Bachus,

Are you saying you can't even assign those Genos faders to control the volume for the 8 parts of a style? (channels 9 - 16)

Joe H

[voodoo]

Yes it sends cc for most things..assigned
But not the channel volume(which makes me asume its not cc7)
Also not for drawbars, and thats probably because as you explained drawbars are sys-ex in the yamaha world...

I think, it sends channel volume, but only, if the midi settings are set correctly. In the midi configuration, you have to select the midi channel, on which the messages for song or style parts should be sent. According to my experiments, that should work.

Can you check, whether you have set the midi/transmit settings accordingly?

Uli

[voodoo]

Yes it sends cc for most things..assigned
But not the channel volume(which makes me asume its not cc7)
Also not for drawbars, and thats probably because as you explained drawbars are sys-ex in the yamaha world...

I think, it sends channel volume, but only, if the midi settings are set correctly. In the midi configuration, you have to select the midi channel, on which the messages for song or style parts should be sent. According to my experiments, that should work.

Can you check, whether you have set the midi/transmit settings accordingly?

Uli

[jwyvern]

Bachus,

Are you saying you can't even assign those Genos faders to control the volume for the 8 parts of a style? (channels 9 - 16)

Joe H

Yes Joe you can. One of the default setups is for the 8 sliders to control style part volumes, albeit with the mandatory jump when you first use them.

This thread confuses me. What is the difference between sending a channel versus sending a part change? If I want to change volume of the voice/part on channel 1 (say R1) aren't I sending a vol (or expression) cc on that channel? I don't see the difference.

John

[Joe H]

... What is the difference between sending a channel versus sending a part change?...

None.  Yamaha coined the term "Part" We use it here because the term "track" is used far too often. There are no tracks in a style. Each style Part or even a MIDI song file...  the parts are on a separate MIDI channel. Parts and channels are the same.

Joe H

[jwyvern]

Thanks Joe, that was my understanding 
John

[pjd]

There are no tracks in a style. Each style Part or even a MIDI song file...

I agree that we do tend to abuse the term "track." The term "track" does have meaning WRT Standard MIDI file format. A type 0 SMF file does not have tracks. A type 1 SMF file has tracks. And yes, "track" and "channel" are not the same thing.

A Yamaha style file is type 0 SMF file, so it does not have SMF tracks.

Thanks, Joe -- pj

[Dromeus]

Parts and channels are the same.

Yamaha arrangers don't allow flexible assignments of MIDI channels to the keyboard or style parts of the sound engine. So it might be justified to think of parts and channels being the same. But conceptually they are very different.

Parts commonly refer to the sounds being generated by a multitimbral sound engine. A 16-part multitimbral engine allows you to access 16 different sounds (instruments) at the same time.

A MIDI channel is a way to control different parts through a single MIDI connection.

Flexible assignment of channels to parts is very powerful. Assigning a single channel to all 16 parts allows to create a layer of 16 sounds. In contrast Yamaha arrangers are very limited when it comes to layering sounds. Two or max three parts may be layered by activating their assigned channels.

PS: The XG spec does allow to assign multiple parts to a single channel to create layers (receive midi channel sysex). Therefore, MIDI File programmers may create complex layers by assigning the parts to a single MIDI channel, which makes editing much easier.

[Joe H]

Obviously you have a poor understanding of MIDI.  MIDI is a 7-bit language which limits it to 16 channels. Arranger styles and song files are Type 0. (up to 16 channels on 1 track) In the early days it was common for MIDI song files to be Type 1, which allows many tracks per channel.  But... neither SMF 0 or 1 allows layering of Voices on a single channel.  To understand this you need know how MIDI works.  You can't have 2 conflicting Voice messages (Bank Select MSB LSB - Program Change) on a single channel. In order to "layer" 2 Voices; 2 channels are required.

What programmers did in the early days was 'switch' Voices on a single channel throughout the song. Then Yamaha invented the multi-sampled Mega Voice which is velocity sensitive, so different types of guitar sounds could play in a single Voice. IE; strums, plucks, muted, open string, etc.

Roland and Yamaha both started using the term Parts when the Type 0 SMF was implemented.  So... for XG and GS Parts and channels are the same thing. The way we can layer 2 Voices on a single channel is to use 2 "Ports" which is really just 2 separate tone generators which creates 32 MIDI channels and  is included in both Yamaha and Roland sounds modules and arranger keyboards.

Yes... it may be possible to layer 2 different sounds from 2 different manufactures such as a Roland sound with a Yamaha sound using sysex.

Joe H

[Joe H]

One final comment about style Parts.  There are only 8 Parts, but 16 MIDI channels.  Sometimes a style Part uses more than 1 channel to create variations with certain chord types.

So it's possible for a style Part to use up to 3 MIDI channels.  The OS will link these channels through settings defined in the CASM so when we edit that Part, all 3 channels will get edited in the same way whether it's changing the Voice, editing the Filter or DSP depth, etc.

Joe H

[Dromeus]

Obviously you have a poor understanding of MIDI. 

Sir, I'm disapointed that you attack me in this way. I'm the first one to admit if I claim sth. that proves to be wrong.

You can't have 2 conflicting Voice messages (Bank Select MSB LSB - Program Change) on a single channel. In order to "layer" 2 Voices; 2 channels are required.

This is true, but the XG designers did take care of this problem. Please refer to the Genos datalist p.105. You may use multi part sysex messages (bank select, program number and rcv channel) to select voices for different parts and layer them to a single channel.

Please refer to the pic attached, it shows you how to assign three different GM programs (Bright Piano, Violin, Trumpet) to parts 1-3 and control it by MIDI channel 1.

BTW: the screen shot is a private MIDI File Viewer that I wrote 20 years ago. So much about my understanding of MIDI technology.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Joe H]

Sir, I'm disapointed that you attack me in this way. I'm the first one to admit if I claim sth. that proves to be wrong...

... Please refer to the pic attached, it shows you how to assign three different GM programs (Bright Piano, Violin, Trumpet) to parts 1-3 and control it by MIDI channel 1...

I didn't attack you, I'm just saying your understanding of MIDI is less than desirable. I stated that it was possible to assign 2 Voices to a channel via sysex, but what is the point of discussing that here.  This is way beyond the scope of this thread and the average person's capabilities.  If you do what you show in the data list how is anyone going to edit that anyway?

You hijacked this thread to insert an issue that is not relevant to the main issue of "channel vs. Part" discussion, and I'm sure people don't really care about the discussion you and I are having.  I'm not interested in arguing with you. This thread isn't about you!

End of conversation.

Joe H

[Dromeus]

Thank you very much, Sir, and have a wonderful day  .

[robinez]

I keep wondering why its not possible to assign a midi CC (any one) to sliders or knobs?

It would make turning the Genos into a true master keyboard so much simpler..

indeed a missed opportunity to add midi CC's to the knobs and sliders in a dedicated mode (so without modifying the genos sounds itself). Even the Access Virus ti has such a feature which is more then 13 years old.

But nowadays there are enough alternatives. Just add your ipad as a midi controller to your Genos set up and you can control everything you want in cubase or any other daw, or just desing your own midi CC implementation on the ipad in one of the many midi controller apps.

Or if you prefer hardware, just add a simple hardware midi controller like for instance the nano kontrol 2 from korg to your setup, then you have added those knobs, sliders and buttons and you can assign them to any function you want in cubase or any other daw.

I have quite a few midi controllers in my studio and i really believe that when you work with computer daw and vst's,  a hardware midi controller adds a lot of value to such a setup.

I'm using multiple midi controllers apps on two ipads and midi controllers like the ableton push 1 and push 2 controller, nanokontrol, nanopad and a komplete kontrol keyboard to use with cubase and ableton and vst's.