Author Topic: Getting a Rhodes/Wurlitzer sound on the PSR E 463  (Read 3290 times)

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Offline tekorei

Getting a Rhodes/Wurlitzer sound on the PSR E 463
« on: August 27, 2019, 11:25:24 PM »
Hello, I'm new to this forum.

Recently bought a PSR E 463 for my son, after doing some research, the groove mode, the easier user interface (compared to equivalent CASIO models) and the fact that my son studies using the Yamaha Music Educational literature has convinced me over the CASIO CTX 800 or even the 5000. Here in my country the CTX 5000 with special offer costs the same as the PSR E 463.

I compared to CASIO CTX 800, much cheaper that the PSR E 463 here, and remember how good sounded to my ears the electric piano sounds available on the CASIO, but I can't get the PSR sound as good as the CASIO.

I found a thread here with really good tips about getting a good church organ sound layering two voices, transposing one of the voices a few octaves, adding reverb, chorus, etc.

So, I wonder if someone here has achieved a good electric piano Rhodes/Wurltizer like sound using a similar approach (layering two voices, adding distortion, phaser, eq, etc.)

Cheers..
 

Re: Getting a Rhodes/Wurlitzer sound on the PSR E 463
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2019, 01:04:03 AM »
Hi tekorkei,

did you really try out ALL internal E-Piano Voices of the E463?

Besides the so called "Panel Voices" (E-Pianos here have Voice No. 11 - 18) you can also use the "XGlite" Voices (starting from Voice No. 302). In the Voice Category "XG Piano" (No. 302 - 340) you can find many more E-Pianos.

You can combine two E-Piano Voices (by using "Main Voice" and "Dual Voice"), of course. It could also be nice to use a "Pad" for the "Dual Voice" (say No. 171 - 188 or 598 -626). Or you combine an E-Piano Voice with an Acoustic Piano.

You can also work with the DSP effects for your E-Piano sound, e. g. some Distortion, Chorus or Tremolo and/or changing the global REVERB and/or CHORUS types and settings.


If you don't have the E463 Data List (that includes the Voice and Effect lists), you can download it from here:

https://usa.yamaha.com/support/manuals/index.html?l=en&c=keyboards&k=psr-e463


You could also try another  Master EQ Type (refer to E463 Owner's Manual, page 52). Maybe the E-Piano sound "comes out" better then.


Hope this helps!

Best regards,
Chris
« Last Edit: August 28, 2019, 01:14:19 AM by overover »
 
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Offline SciNote

Re: Getting a Rhodes/Wurlitzer sound on the PSR E 463
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2019, 09:04:55 AM »
All of the above are really good suggestions.  If you can post a YouTube link or something similar to the kind of sound you're looking for, that can help us try to zero in on it for you.

One thing I can point out is that some classic electric piano sounds have a distinct tremolo sound.  As suggested above, you can try the DSP tremolo effect to see how that sounds.  But I believe that is more of a "sine wave" change in volume, where the volume of sound goes up and down smoothly.  In my experience, many of the classic electric pianos had a tremolo that was closer to a square wave, where the volume goes up and down more abruptly.

To get this effect, one thing you can do is to combine two electric pianos, as described above, for the main and dual voices, and set the dual voice to a lower volume. Then, you can use the Harmony function's tremolo function (which only affects the main voice).  As the tremolo turns on and off the sound of the main voice repetitively, the dual voice continues to sound, which creates this square-wave type tremolo effect.  Adjusting the envelope attack and release of the main voice helps "fine tune" this effect so the tremolo effect is not quite so abrupt.

The main limitation of this trick is that it only works while you are holding down the notes.  If you use the sustain pedal, as the notes ring on after releasing the keys, the tremolo effect stops.  Also, on classic electric pianos, the tremolo effect is always in synch with each note (because there is only one tremolo generator), but with this effect I am describing, each note you play has it's own tremolo pattern that starts when each individual note is played.
Bob
Yamaha PSR-E433
Yamaha PSR-520
 

Offline Roy_T

Re: Getting a Rhodes/Wurlitzer sound on the PSR E 463
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2019, 12:31:02 PM »
tekorkei

On the PSR-E433, XG-LITE Voice #566 is Soft Whirl.  This is Voice #597 on your PSR-E463.  I take it that this is probably meant to mean "Soft Wurly", but is Yamaha's "code" for avoiding "infringement" issues.  When I try it "as is" on my PSR-E433, I get something that might sound remotely like a Wurly, but what is obviously missing is that typical tell-tale Wurly "bark" when you really rap the keys.  Maybe that is what is meant by Soft Whirl - no bark ! ! !  The required velocity switching for it is just not part of the sample.  I spent a couple hours last evening experimenting with various settings of the Cutoff and Resonance knobs on it, but could not even come close to anything that sounded at all like a believable velocity "bark".  I know what you mean. On my Casio CTK/WK-6000/7000/7500, I was able to get a very reasonable simile of Roger Hodgson's Wurly sound on Supertramp's "The Logical Song", but try as I may, I just can not do it on the E433.  If you want to try, I suggest, at least, starting with Voice #597.  As suggested above, you might want to try layering Voice #597 (or other epiano voices) with various other epiano voices, or possibly even with one of the acoustic piano voices, but if you do that, you will need to shorten the release time of the acoustic voice way up.  The release time of the average acoustic is way too long to simulate a Rhodes/Wurly "reed" type instrument.  My fear in trying this on an E series board, is that you will very quickly run out of necessary simultaneous effects.

Hodgson split the output of his Wurly, and sent half to the sound board completely dry.  The other half, he sent through a standard guitar effects chorus pedal, adjusted the amount of chorus at the pedal, and sent that on to the sound board.  Then, at the sound board, he adjusted the levels of the two signals until he got the overall sound he wanted.  In listening to a lot of Supertramp's songs, I don't think "The Logical Song" is the only place he did this.  It's just the most noticeable.  It is a lot of fun to add a little additional effects, like phasering, flanging, or delay to that chorused signal with a little reverb added to the overall mix.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wurlitzer_electric_piano

The Wurly sound in the above link has just phasering added to it.  It is NOT an example of Roger Hodgson's "Logical Song" Wurly sound scheme.  What is important in that link is the mention of the fact that, if you want to start with basic "raw" sounds, the Wurly sound is primarily a saw-tooth wave, while a Rhodes' is more of a sine wave.

Roy
« Last Edit: August 28, 2019, 01:58:09 PM by Roy_T »
 

Offline tekorei

Re: Getting a Rhodes/Wurlitzer sound on the PSR E 463
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2019, 01:51:38 PM »
Thank you all for the suggestions!

In fact, I tried those XGLite voices and also found that Soft Wurly voice, and there is no "bark" in that voice, despite the hard you press the key.

My main search is for a "The Doors - Riders on the Storm" (Rhodes?) and "Queen - You're my best friend" (Wurlitzer?) sounds.

I think I can get closer to that Riders on the storm sound, with tremolo/vibrato, still din't found the rigth amount of distorion and eq.

But i'm still far from the You're my best friend tone, besiders the phaser and distortion, that "bark" is missing from all the voices i've tried.

Also, I think that the E 463 can't use the phaser and distortion at the same time.
 

Re: Getting a Rhodes/Wurlitzer sound on the PSR E 463
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2019, 03:14:25 PM »
... Also, I think that the E 463 can't use the phaser and distortion at the same time.

Hi tekorei,

there is only one DSP effect block available on the E463. But in the (global) CHORUS effect block there are three Chorus types and two Flanger types.

You could try to combine such a Chorus or Flanger type (and a small amount of Reverb from the REVERB effect block) with some Distortion from the DSP block.


P.S.
Be sure to have selected "KEYBOARD" as the "TARGET" for the DSP (refer to page 24 in E463 Owner's Manual).


Best regards,
Chris
« Last Edit: August 28, 2019, 03:25:05 PM by overover »
 

Offline tekorei

Re: Getting a Rhodes/Wurlitzer sound on the PSR E 463
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2019, 08:41:25 PM »
Wow, thanks for those tips about DSP and main fx use!

I have only experience with guitar multi fx units, so really didn't know about internal fx use in keyboards.

About the lack of bark in the Soft Wurly voice, maybe i'll try layering with a decaying voice, like some of the vintage analog synth voices. There are some good ones I've heard.
 

Offline SciNote

Re: Getting a Rhodes/Wurlitzer sound on the PSR E 463
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2019, 07:06:18 AM »
I have to do some experimenting, but my guess would be, to get that initial bark, combine the Soft Whirl voice with the dynamic electric piano -- at least that is what I believe it is called.  I'm not in front of my keyboard right now, but it is Voice Number 11 on the PSR-E433, and it has a distinctive "clip" when you hit the key hard.  Maybe shifting the octave of it relative to the Soft Whirl would help.

And yes, as a flanger sound is similar to a phaser sound, on a PSR-E463 (as well as an E453, EW400, and EW410), you can combine DSP distortion with chorus type flanger.  The only way I could come close to something like that on my E433, without using an outboard effects device, would be to start with a sound that has some built-in distortion.
Bob
Yamaha PSR-E433
Yamaha PSR-520
 

Offline pjd

Re: Getting a Rhodes/Wurlitzer sound on the PSR E 463
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2019, 06:07:36 PM »
Sometimes the voice developer lengthens the attack time in order to suppress a sharp transient at the beginning of the internal waveform. I would suggest shortening the attack time just to see if the "bark" is in the waveform.

All the best -- pj
 

Offline SciNote

Re: Getting a Rhodes/Wurlitzer sound on the PSR E 463
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2019, 04:42:57 AM »
Well, I tried reducing the attack on the SoftWhirl sound, and it had no effect.  But how about this...

https://app.box.com/s/ha86izibwcz4dqufbkqqlgec5iohfi9s

Essentially, a combination of the SoftWhirl and Galaxy EP (which I believe is renamed as Dynamic EP on the E443 on up)

The patch...

MAIN VOICE
Voice .......... SoftWhirl (566 on PSR-E433)
Volume ....... 100
Octave ........ 1
Pan ............. 64
Reverb ........ 27
Chorus ........ 127
Attack ......... 64
Release ....... 64
CutOff ......... 64
Resonance ... 64

DUAL VOICE
Voice .......... Cool Galx (11 on PSR-E433)
Volume ....... 110
Octave ........ 0
Pan ............. 64
Reverb ........ 27
Chorus ........ 127
Attack ......... 64
Release ....... 64
Cutoff ......... 40
Resonance ... 90

Reverb -- Hall 2; Chorus -- Chorus 1

Of course, the voice numbers will likely be different on keyboards other than the E433.  The idea is to use the Galaxy/Dynamic Electric piano to get that "bark" at the beginning of hard-hit notes, but using the filter to mitigate it somewhat, and then combine that with the SoftWhirl to complete the sound.

You can try different settings of panning and chorus for additional effects.  In fact, when I just tried to set the main voice pan to 20, the dual voice pan to 105, the reverb to Hall 3 and reverb level of 50 for both voices, and the chorus to Flanger 1, it did enhance the sound.

And I have to say, if I hadn't read about it here, I would've likely never realized that "SoftWhirl" was referring to a Wurlitzer Electric Piano.  I guess it's kind of like those one-touch preset song names, where the title is scrambled or alluded to, presumably for copyright reasons.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2019, 04:47:47 AM by SciNote »
Bob
Yamaha PSR-E433
Yamaha PSR-520
 

Offline SeaGtGruff

Re: Getting a Rhodes/Wurlitzer sound on the PSR E 463
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2019, 08:40:14 AM »
Someone on another forum mentioned that the thing with the song names being cryptic probably has something to do with licensing fees or something like that, due to all of the different countries that the keyboard is being sold in. But I might be misremembering it wildly.
Michael Rideout
Current keyboards: Yamaha YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443, PSR-EW400, MX49 BK
Current controllers: M-Audio Axiom 61-II
Previous keyboards: Farfisa Matador 611; Casio CTK-710
 

Offline tekorei

Re: Getting a Rhodes/Wurlitzer sound on the PSR E 463
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2019, 08:39:25 PM »
Well, I tried reducing the attack on the SoftWhirl sound, and it had no effect.  But how about this...

https://app.box.com/s/ha86izibwcz4dqufbkqqlgec5iohfi9s

Essentially, a combination of the SoftWhirl and Galaxy EP (which I believe is renamed as Dynamic EP on the E443 on up)

The patch...

MAIN VOICE
Voice .......... SoftWhirl (566 on PSR-E433)
Volume ....... 100
Octave ........ 1
Pan ............. 64
Reverb ........ 27
Chorus ........ 127
Attack ......... 64
Release ....... 64
CutOff ......... 64
Resonance ... 64

DUAL VOICE
Voice .......... Cool Galx (11 on PSR-E433)
Volume ....... 110
Octave ........ 0
Pan ............. 64
Reverb ........ 27
Chorus ........ 127
Attack ......... 64
Release ....... 64
Cutoff ......... 40
Resonance ... 90

Reverb -- Hall 2; Chorus -- Chorus 1

Of course, the voice numbers will likely be different on keyboards other than the E433.  The idea is to use the Galaxy/Dynamic Electric piano to get that "bark" at the beginning of hard-hit notes, but using the filter to mitigate it somewhat, and then combine that with the SoftWhirl to complete the sound.

You can try different settings of panning and chorus for additional effects.  In fact, when I just tried to set the main voice pan to 20, the dual voice pan to 105, the reverb to Hall 3 and reverb level of 50 for both voices, and the chorus to Flanger 1, it did enhance the sound.

And I have to say, if I hadn't read about it here, I would've likely never realized that "SoftWhirl" was referring to a Wurlitzer Electric Piano.  I guess it's kind of like those one-touch preset song names, where the title is scrambled or alluded to, presumably for copyright reasons.

Really nice sound!

And your suggestion is definitively a must try, maybe also adding some distortion and phaser instead of the chorus, looking for a more vintage like sound.