Author Topic: 6-8 or 12-8 Style ?  (Read 152385 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Luluc

6-8 or 12-8 Style ?
« on: August 25, 2019, 05:39:24 PM »
Hello all,

In the Genos , we have the preset style called '6-8GuitarBallad'.
When you look inside the file, you can see the style is based on 4-beat bars. So, it would be called '12-8GuitarBallad' ???

Fox example, in the A variation, the bass duration is a whole note as for a 12-8 time signature.

I guess trhat is an old convention for naming the style...For me, that adds some confusion.
 

Offline Fred Smith

Re: 6-8 or 12-8 Style ?
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2019, 05:49:50 PM »
In the Genos , we have the preset style called '6-8GuitarBallad'.
When you look inside the file, you can see the style is based on 4-beat bars. So, it would be called '12-8GuitarBallad' ???

Fox example, in the A variation, the bass duration is a whole note as for a 12-8 time signature.

I guess trhat is an old convention for naming the style...For me, that adds some confusion.

Yes, 6/8 styles that are actually 4/4 is a "feature" of Yamaha keyboards for as long as Iíve been using them. I think they do it because most people are more comfortable playing 4/4, and let the style do the syncopation.

For what itís worth, you can create your own proper 6/8 styles, and many people have.

Cheers,
Fred
Fred Smith,
Saskatoon, SK
Sun Lakes, AZ
Genos, Bose L1 compacts, Finale 2015
Check out my Registration Lessons
 

Offline Robert van Weersch

Re: 6-8 or 12-8 Style ?
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2019, 08:37:45 AM »
A few weeks ago, someone posted a ZIP with a bunch of 12/8 and 6/8 in 4/4, to real 12/8 and 6/8. Can't find it anymore...


[edit] Found it :)        https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,46991.msg387918.html#msg369091
« Last Edit: August 26, 2019, 08:39:41 AM by Robert van Weersch »
---
Yamaha Tyros 5 76
Korg Liverpool (microArranger)
 
The following users thanked this post: Klaus71229

Offline Wim NL

Re: 6-8 or 12-8 Style ?
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2019, 09:15:23 AM »
I have converted the 6/8, 12/8 styles in real 6/8, 12/8

https://app.box.com/s/9os68vkhv5lrog4kk9o4ltc4xmlws2j5
Best Regards,
Wim
 
The following users thanked this post: loendersloot, Dave Nuttall, erbis

Offline Luluc

Re: 6-8 or 12-8 Style ?
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2019, 01:15:59 PM »
You are all saying that the '6-8GuitarBallad' style is a fake 6-8 but in real a 12-8 style.

That is a pity that Yamaha still goes on naming 6-8 styles that are real 12-8.

I suppose it has already been reported to Yamaha ?
 
The following users thanked this post: MusicMan

Offline Fred Smith

Re: 6-8 or 12-8 Style ?
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2019, 02:08:08 PM »
You are all saying that the '6-8GuitarBallad' style is a fake 6-8 but in real a 12-8 style.

That is a pity that Yamaha still goes on naming 6-8 styles that are real 12-8.

I suppose it has already been reported to Yamaha ?

what's to report? A lot of us are happy using the style, and its name makes it easy to find. And I wouldn't say it's really a 12/8 style either.

Cheers,
Fred
Fred Smith,
Saskatoon, SK
Sun Lakes, AZ
Genos, Bose L1 compacts, Finale 2015
Check out my Registration Lessons
 

Offline mikf

Re: 6-8 or 12-8 Style ?
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2019, 02:44:49 PM »
Time signatures might be the most misunderstood thing in music. They are much less definitive than people think. Many 12-8 (doowop feel ) songs are actually written in 4 - 4. When you use a time signature it can have several purposes - eg to make it easier to read/write the music, to tell you something about the feel of the music. When describing a style Yamaha undoubtedly are describing the feel of the style so adopt certain descriptions like 6-8 or 12-8. There is not really a right or wrong here.
Mike
 

Offline Janus

Re: 6-8 or 12-8 Style ?
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2019, 02:56:19 PM »
the trick they use triolen
written like --- --- --- --- notes
to get the waltz feel
 

Offline Luluc

Re: 6-8 or 12-8 Style ?
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2019, 08:35:22 AM »
Wim NL,

Thanks for the style. You made a good job.

According to theory of the music, a 6-8 time signature means you have two beats in a bar, and a 12-8 time signature means you have 4 beats in bar. And right, both time signatures include triplets.
 

Offline Robert van Weersch

Re: 6-8 or 12-8 Style ?
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2019, 12:07:51 PM »
According to theory of the music, a 6-8 time signature means you have two beats in a bar, and a 12-8 time signature means you have 4 beats in bar. And right, both time signatures include triplets.
As far as I know, a x/y beat means you have x beats in a bar, where y is the prevailing time value. A real 6/8 has 6 beats, and a 12/8 has 12 beats.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2019, 12:11:32 PM by Robert van Weersch »
---
Yamaha Tyros 5 76
Korg Liverpool (microArranger)
 

Offline voodoo

Re: 6-8 or 12-8 Style ?
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2019, 01:04:44 PM »
As far as I know, a x/y beat means you have x beats in a bar, where y is the prevailing time value. A real 6/8 has 6 beats, and a 12/8 has 12 beats.

But no one would count 12 beats in a bar. As Luluc said, 12/8 is a convention to write notation for a 4/4 beat with triplet feeling (for human reading).

So for a musician it may be easier to read 12/8 over 4/4 with triplets.
But for machine recording, it may be easier to use 4 counts with triplets, because most metronoms (or BPM counters) are made for counting 4th notes.

Uli
Yamaha Genos
Yamaha MODX7
Yamaha P-125 Digital Piano
Nord Electro 5D
 

Offline mikf

Re: 6-8 or 12-8 Style ?
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2019, 01:20:50 PM »
Like I said - one of the most misunderstood things in music! 
Many time signatures are actually mathematically interchangeable. I could easily write a piece in either 3 -8 or 6-8. It would be the same piece. The choice is partly convention - for example if it were a jig I would use 6 -8 , because that's what you do! The time signature would transmit something about the feel of the music, not just the note length. And all partly because the notes naturally cluster together in certain ways for easy reading with some time signatures. So I could choose to write a shuffle or doowop piece in 4-4 or 12-8, and both would be correct and could be played correctly. 12 -8 is four beats with 3 notes per beat, as the poster said. But what if I wrote it in 6 -8. Then it could still be technically correct but each 12-8 or 4-4 bar just gets spread over two bars. But I would never do that, because convention would mislead the musician. You don't write shuffles or doowop in 6 - 8, not because you can't - but because you don't.
Mike 
 

Offline Robert van Weersch

Re: 6-8 or 12-8 Style ?
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2019, 01:52:36 PM »
I was just talking about the notation  8)

Apart from that, it would be very practical if the 12/8 and 6/8 styles were real triplet /8 styles, preferrably in 3/8. It would make breaks and transitions at the counts of 4, 7 or 10 a lot easier... I play some songs which use 6/8 or 12/8 but also have the occasional 3/8 bars in it. Now I have to create a custom style, with some fake half-bar fills or have to use the sync start/stop with a pedal, to get in sync with the song.
---
Yamaha Tyros 5 76
Korg Liverpool (microArranger)
 

Offline mikf

Re: 6-8 or 12-8 Style ?
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2019, 02:03:31 PM »
Yes Robert, I guess that bar length can be a problem with some aspects of a style, like the fill. Some Andrew Lloyd Weber stuff has this issue, but I must admit that I seldom try to be completely technically correct when playing this kind of song, I just stretch the short bar. I think this is seldom noticed by listeners, and much easier than trying to customize the style.
Mike   
 

Offline Robert van Weersch

Re: 6-8 or 12-8 Style ?
« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2019, 02:06:30 PM »
I've been the keyboard player for some choirs and with them, the original song is always the goal :)  So I have quite some modified styles to be able to be literally "note perfect" for songs. The 6/8 and 12/8 in 2/4 and 4/4 are, frankly, a pain to modify. WimNL's 6/8 and 12/8 are quite an improvement.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2019, 02:09:12 PM by Robert van Weersch »
---
Yamaha Tyros 5 76
Korg Liverpool (microArranger)
 

Offline mikf

Re: 6-8 or 12-8 Style ?
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2019, 03:53:27 PM »
Must admit I see the use of electronic accompaniment (styles) for choirs or congregations as a big risk and would personally avoid it. There is no room for error if they get out of time, so I have always used more conventional piano or organ accompaniment for church playing or choral/community singing. I do notice many people on this forum saying they do this though, so obviously they make it work.
Mike

Offline Robert van Weersch

Re: 6-8 or 12-8 Style ?
« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2019, 06:54:29 PM »
It can work, most definitely! I've done stuff like modern Christmas songs like Merry Christmas Everyone (Shakin' Stevens) but also Nothing Else Matters (Metallica), Africa (Toto) or even Born This Way (Lady Gaga) using both generic and song-specific styles, customized mult-pads etc. You'll need a conductor and keyboard player who can work in tempo sync really tight. The conductor is no longer in control of the tempo, but the keyboard. And when something goes wrong, it is up to the keyboard player to stop/start the song really fast to get in-sync again without the audience noticing. But honestly, we've never had that problem during a performance.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2019, 06:56:15 PM by Robert van Weersch »
---
Yamaha Tyros 5 76
Korg Liverpool (microArranger)
 

Offline pjd

Re: 6-8 or 12-8 Style ?
« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2019, 09:43:57 PM »
Must admit I see the use of electronic accompaniment (styles) for choirs or congregations as a big risk and would personally avoid it. There is no room for error if they get out of time, so I have always used more conventional piano or organ accompaniment for church playing or choral/community singing. I do notice many people on this forum saying they do this though, so obviously they make it work.
Mike

Reminds of the time when I rehearsed our church group to perform over backing tracks. (Yep, I know that is even more rigid than styles.) I had to work hard to get them to really listen and to understand that "when the bus pulls out, you've got  to be on the bus."

Now these were reasonable experienced singers/musicians. But, seeing their troubles, I can't imagine having an untrained congregation sing along with even style-based accompaniment. Something and everything happens on any given Sunday...

All the best -- pj
 

Offline panos

Re: 6-8 or 12-8 Style ?
« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2019, 10:25:10 PM »
I have just downloaded Wim's conversions.
The light on the keyboard it does lightening differently and follows the hi hat sound.

The metronome (and the light) is ticking too fast to be able to count anything.
(not that I am always sure that I know what I have to count ;D)
I just follow what I hear from the style parts to get in the....mood.

Is that helping you better to sight read sheet music when the style is playing in 12/8 and not in 4/4?

Offline Robert van Weersch

Re: 6-8 or 12-8 Style ?
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2019, 05:28:38 AM »
Now these were reasonable experienced singers/musicians. But, seeing their troubles, I can't imagine having an untrained congregation sing along with even style-based accompaniment. Something and everything happens on any given Sunday...
No church choirs (I'm an atheist) but mostly choirs with people over 20 years of singing experience. And quite strict selection critereria when applying to join so the members are really musical and actually can sing. But it is the conductor who has to listen to the style and keep the choir synched. Like I said, never had any problems on stage.
---
Yamaha Tyros 5 76
Korg Liverpool (microArranger)
 

Offline pjd

Re: 6-8 or 12-8 Style ?
« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2019, 06:44:11 PM »
And quite strict selection critereria when applying to join so the members are really musical and actually can sing.

Groups vary, of course. Most parishes have fairly minimal criteria as participation is an important goal. Not much different than many secular community groups, but probably more pressure to allow parishioners to participate.

My spouse just passed an audition for a community choir with fairly stringent criteria. Now it's my turn as I need to seek a new liturgical position on keys. It's hard to keep my chops up while living in a hotel!  :)

All the best -- pj
 

Offline a1gene

Re: 6-8 or 12-8 Style ?
« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2019, 02:36:54 AM »
As far as I know, a x/y beat means you have x beats in a bar, where y is the prevailing time value. A real 6/8 has 6 beats, and a 12/8 has 12 beats.

Here's a little bit about time signatures for people who might be confused. The top number of a time signature always refers to the number of notes (or rests) of the type indicated by the bottom number that are needed to fill a complete measure. In other words, a  measure of 12 8 would contain the equivalent of 12 eighth notes or rests, etc. The top number also determines whether the time is simple or compound. If it's evenly divisible by 3 but not 3 itself, it's compound time. If that's not the case, it's simple time, and then the top number also indicates the number of beats in each measure. If the time is compound, that is, a top number of 6, 9, 12, 15, etc., the number of beats in each measure is that top number divided by 3. The "compounding" concept come from subdividing each beat into 3 equal parts and superimposing them onto a system that's basically designed to work in groups of 2. In compound time, a beat is always represented by a dotted note of some type, for instance in 6 4 time, a beat is represented by a dotted half note. The feel of compound time can also be duplicated by using triplets in simple time. Note that after the first division of a beat into 3 in compound time, the next division almost always reverts back to 2, that is in 6 8, the next division of a eighth note is into 2 sixteenth notes.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2019, 02:34:08 AM by a1gene »
 

Offline mikf

Re: 6-8 or 12-8 Style ?
« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2019, 12:08:51 PM »
Piece of music is a collection of notes occurring in a specific sequence and time interval. The problem for a composer is how to transmit this accurately on paper to someone so they can create the sound and feel as he intended. You can write them in one continuous sequence, but this could be hard to read. Over the centuries conventions emerged to make this easier and more convenient. This included separating the music into equal chunks (bars) and things like time signatures. Time signatures really do two things, collect the notes into easier to read anticipated sequences and transmit some information on what the composer intended about the feel of the piece. I could write a piece of music in a variety of time signatures, and a musician could play it accurately and all would sound the same. But they might not be equally easy to read. Or what the musician was used to.
The information from A1gene is all corrrect, but makes music seem like nuclear physics with a right and wrong. In fact, the time signature is more akin to getting a dinner invitation with the words Ďdress code , black tieí. Its not an exact description but tells an informed person all they need to know in just two words. Itís not really a highly technical thing for most music.
Yes, there are some very advanced situations re time signatures, but most of us will never deal with them.
And if we already know how the piece should sound, time signature becomes pretty unimportant because the whole point of the written music is to convey how it should sound when you donít know.
Mike