Author Topic: Why no audio style development  (Read 10659 times)

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Offline ekurburski

Why no audio style development
« on: August 16, 2019, 12:22:43 AM »
PG Music has had real tracks (audio styles) in BIAB for several years and they work great!  Why is it taking so long to come to the arranger world?
PSR740, PSR3000, tx7, mt32, mirage, ProTiools 10,11 Sonar,  Reaper, BIAB2019
 

Offline DrakeM

Re: Why no audio style development
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2019, 02:37:53 AM »
I think because we the consumers .. don't want them. ;)

As in you can't use them for any thing other than what they are set up for .. ie, A One Shot Wonder.
 
You can't share any style that uses them with fellow members.

And last they take a lot of (useless) memory up.

For folks wanting to create custom styles using our keyboards, they are a waste.

Thank goodness it appears the SX900 has none of them.

Regards
Drake
« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 02:39:39 AM by DrakeM »
 
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Offline Pino

Re: Why no audio style development
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2019, 02:44:11 AM »
I agree with Drake
We need to edit our styles to our liking
That’s why I never use the audio styles.

Pino
« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 02:46:05 AM by Pino »
S910 - S950 - S975 - Ketron SD40 - Maui 5s
 

Re: Why no audio style development
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2019, 03:22:57 AM »
The Genos use AWM stereo samples, which are recorded from real instruments. They sound beautiful.

I was excited about audio styles but they are disappointing, for me anyway.

Regards,
Richard
When 68 years old you reach, look as good you will not (Master Yoda).
Make great backing tracks with Midi Maker and your keyboard: https://sites.google.com/view/midi-maker/home
 

Offline pjd

Re: Why no audio style development
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2019, 03:59:52 AM »
Yamaha actually has a large number of patents on full audio style technology (i.e., audio for both rhythm tracks and pitched melodic tracks).

Perhaps they aren't quite happy with the audio quality yet? Who knows? Yamaha have clearly invested a fair bit of R&D in this area.

All the best -- pj
 

Offline DonM

Re: Why no audio style development
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2019, 04:33:02 AM »
I'm hoping they develop more of them.  Ketron has had them for many years and they are a tiny company compared to Yamaha.  They are more expensive to make, especially when you use real guitars, but you are hearing real instruments.
Yamaha will find a way to make them better in the long run, I hope.  The primary problem with audio GUITAR styles, is that recordings must be made for EVERY chord change, and it is extremely time-consuming and expensive.   That's the area where Ketron struggled for so long, and still do to an extent.  Audio styles with only the drums (the rest of the instruments traditional midi) are much easier, but still need excellent drummers and technicians to do them. 
My favorite styles on the S970 are some of the audio styles. 

Offline Robert van Weersch

Re: Why no audio style development
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2019, 06:33:16 AM »
Another problem is that samples can only be stretched to a relatively narrow bandwidth of bpm without changing the pitch. And vice versa.
A MIDI-based track does not have this problem.
---
Yamaha Tyros 5 76
Korg Liverpool (microArranger)
 

Offline DrakeM

Re: Why no audio style development
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2019, 01:17:55 PM »
The Guitar, Strings and Horn Mega style parts are also USELESS for creating your own styles.

The machine is called an "Arranger" and having Mega sounds only makes it a TOY to just sit in front of and play it AS IS.

Many times I have run into a problem with the Mega voices as you CAN NOT change out the voice for another similar voice, as in changing from a Nylon guitar voice to a Clean guitar voice. The picking pattern is the one I need but the voice is wrong and since I can not change the voice, I have to look for another BUT generally find what I need in one of the PRE MEGA styles. If you can find the Pattern in an older style, you may change the voice to ANY voice and I do mean any, including a MEGA voices.

Regards
Drake



« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 01:20:26 PM by DrakeM »
 
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Offline DrakeM

Re: Why no audio style development
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2019, 02:25:50 PM »
I have another example regarding the Audio drums from last week.

I found a style that I turned into a custom song style for the Johnny Cash tune “One Piece at a Time. If the style had used Audio drums I would not have been able to delete the Crashing cymbal heard at the end of the Auto fill in. That loud cymbal crash ruined the style but because I could remove it (from a regular drummer pattern), I was able to use that fill in. The drummer is pretty plain and simple backing for that song.

Yamaha put up YouTube videos for the Genos keyboard claiming Songwriters could use the arranger to craft full tracks using the Genos. When in fact the more Audio drums and Mega voices that are added to the keyboard the LESS you are able to “create”.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 02:27:04 PM by DrakeM »
 

Offline Enildo

Re: Why no audio style development
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2019, 04:07:40 PM »
I am totally in favor of audio styles. For both drums and instruments such as guitars, accordions, ukuleles. They make all the difference. Here in Brazil we are making our own audio guitars using loops. It takes a lot of work but the final work is very rewarding. Here we are mainly using for electric guitars and acoustic guitars. After mounting the loops on Expansion Manager you can share to PPF, CPF, PPI and CPI as normal. For pianos, bass and wind instruments I find it unnecessary, at least for now. It's very different that you play a style with a real guitar (audio) and a guitar made on the keyboard keys, without comparison. The issue of size is no problem these days, when we already work with Terabytes, the biggest obstacle is in the companies that make the keyboards, of increasing the memory size or letting us expand memory for samples of our keyboards. .

Enildo
When word fail, Music speaks!
 

Offline Jay B.

Disappointed with Audio Style Implementation in S970
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2019, 04:57:01 PM »
One of the main reasons I bought an arranger was the ability to quickly create MIDI songs, using styles, for various purposes and then be able to edit them later. Imagine my surprise when I find out I can't quick record using audio styles - no drum track is recorded. I understand that the drums are actually an audio file in an Audio Style, but I believe Yamaha should have made provision for quick recording a chord track or something to capture use of audio styles. Maybe step recording will work (haven't tried it yet), but that's not how I wanted to use it in my workflow.

I should add that I think the Audio Styles sound great. Unfortunately, I don't seem to be able to use them in the ways that I want.
 

Offline Pino

Re: Why no audio style development
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2019, 05:15:57 PM »
Enildo
Sounds like you are a very experienced player.
I am fascinated by your excitement and enthusiasm for music and life.
I would really like to hear your music
Where can I find some of your songs.

Best regards
Pino
S910 - S950 - S975 - Ketron SD40 - Maui 5s
 

Offline DrakeM

Re: Why no audio style development
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2019, 05:16:22 PM »
Let me also point out that the MEGA voices can NOT be used by the us the CUSTOMER. Only Yamaha has the ability to record anything with them. We the Customer can only use the SWEET, LIVE, S.A. and COOL type of voices to record into a style.

These voice sound very nice and very real and belong in a keyboard for a novice user and not in a keyboard that Yamaha says it built for a Songwriter (style creator) Arranger. They are Eye Candy only and totally useless for creation of custom styles.

Regards
Drake


Offline rodrigo.b

Re: Why no audio style development
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2019, 05:23:07 PM »
I Think the problem with the midi styles is that Yamaha don’t give us a lot of drum kits to choose from, and also for some regional styles they don’t record the appropriate percussion instruments. For example they use the same percussion instruments voices to program a salsa style and a merengue style. I know that some of you may be thinking: “Ok, but both styles are latin genres, so what’s the problem?” Well the problem is that the merengue uses some different percussion instruments than the salsa like guira or tambora, so that’s the reason why the Yamaha style doesn’t sound authentic and doesn’t sound realistic.
 

Offline ekurburski

Re: Why no audio style development
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2019, 06:05:07 PM »
Once again, I started the thread referencing Band-In_A-Box.  PG Music has figured out how to do this so its workable and is fairly easy to use.  With a huge # of real tracks available I can almost always find a suitable one to use.  They have also provided instruction on how to create your own live tracks.  The drawback is you can't play them in real time like we play our arrangers.  Heck, I'll even go further and ask for ability to us BIAB real tracks on the kb.
PSR740, PSR3000, tx7, mt32, mirage, ProTiools 10,11 Sonar,  Reaper, BIAB2019
 

Re: Why no audio style development
« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2019, 09:34:14 PM »
I am also a fan of BIAB/RealBand but I go the other way --> Genos to BIAB/RB
There are tens of thousands of styles for Yamaha arrangers and you can always find one to suit a certain song.

After I make a backing track on the Genos and record the vocals I then record  the midi file to Realband from the Genos.
I then split the tracks by channel and import the vocals. Now I can play with the TC Helicon vocal harmoniser in Realband  and add effects and panning to the individual channels to mix the final song to my liking.

It is true though that BIAB has no problem with using audio samples.

Regards,
Richard
When 68 years old you reach, look as good you will not (Master Yoda).
Make great backing tracks with Midi Maker and your keyboard: https://sites.google.com/view/midi-maker/home
 

Offline Enildo

Re: Why no audio style development
« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2019, 10:26:31 PM »
Enildo
Sounds like you are a very experienced player.
I am fascinated by your excitement and enthusiasm for music and life.
I would really like to hear your music
Where can I find some of your songs.

Best regards
Pino

Hi Pin, thanks for mentioning me.
I don't play as well as you might think, but I try to squeeze out rock juice when it comes to using keyboard features.
I speak very little English but if you want to know a little more about this humble musician, I'll be waiting for you.

Hug,
Enildo
« Last Edit: August 21, 2019, 12:07:52 AM by Enildo »
When word fail, Music speaks!
 

Offline Enildo

Re: Why no audio style development
« Reply #17 on: August 16, 2019, 10:51:49 PM »
Let me also point out that the MEGA voices can NOT be used by the us the CUSTOMER. Only Yamaha has the ability to record anything with them. We the Customer can only use the SWEET, LIVE, S.A. and COOL type of voices to record into a style.

These voice sound very nice and very real and belong in a keyboard for a novice user and not in a keyboard that Yamaha says it built for a Songwriter (style creator) Arranger. They are Eye Candy only and totally useless for creation of custom styles.

Regards
Drake

Hello Drake!
I follow your work, here on the forum and on youtube, and you're a great musician and singer.

But let me disagree with you when it comes to Mega Voices. To use Mega Voices you can do it in two ways:
1st: Select Mega voice and go to the "Touch off Level" function and modify the values to your liking using the Mega voice layer you want to use, before turn off the "touch" button. You can then make touch modifications in the style editor.
2nd: Record the track with a normal voice, then switch to a mega voice, now make Touch edits (1 - 127) to the layer you want in the keyboard style editor.

Note: For Mega Voices, octave to the highest octaves of the keyboard (C6 to B6 - C7 - B7), you will find several characteristic nuances of the selected instrument.

You'll have a lot more work for sure, but you'll have a more real trail in your style, and this can be done by any of us.

Enildo
« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 11:02:43 PM by Enildo »
When word fail, Music speaks!
 
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Offline hans1966

Re: Why no audio style development
« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2019, 02:32:36 AM »
Wow Enildo, I didn't know that a Mega voice could be edited. thanks for the info. Hans

Offline DrakeM

Re: Why no audio style development
« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2019, 03:57:29 AM »
Hi Enildo

I agree and I do use your #2 description for recording my own parts but I do not go back and edit the recording. Problem with the MEGA voices (for me) are the ones YAMAHA has recorded in our styles. You can not for example  .. change a nylon guitar voice to a twelve string guitar and have it sound correct (every time). It is totally hit or miss and generally a miss, I find.

Just this afternoon I was working on a Ricky Nelson song style and needed a simple alternating up and down strum pattern. I found it in one of my S950 styles that used a MEGA guitar voice BUT it was using a Steel string Guitar and I needed a softer sounding voice and changed it to the Nylon guitar voice and it did not play correctly. I continued to search and went to my older batch of Yamaha styles and found the pattern again and was able to change it to using the Nylon guitar voice. The reason I could change it to the Nylon guitar (or and of the other guitars) was because it was not recorded to the style as a MEGA voice by Yamaha.

Regards
Drake

« Last Edit: August 17, 2019, 03:59:55 AM by DrakeM »
 

Offline Pino

Re: Why no audio style development
« Reply #20 on: August 17, 2019, 05:02:39 AM »
Enildo, Thanks for your reply
And thanks for sharing your technical knowledge with us here.
Regards
Pino
S910 - S950 - S975 - Ketron SD40 - Maui 5s
 

Offline Pino

Re: Why no audio style development
« Reply #21 on: August 17, 2019, 06:01:07 AM »
Hi Drake,
it’s very frustrating at times when trying to change a guitar part in a style, we can see many guitars but not able to use then without having the dreaded whistles and bangs.

Are you saying that if one uses an older version of the style from a previous keyboard then maybe there is a chance that the guitars are inter-changeable without the problems. - I will give it a go.

Pino
S910 - S950 - S975 - Ketron SD40 - Maui 5s
 

Offline EileenL

Re: Why no audio style development
« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2019, 11:21:17 AM »
This happens when Mega voices have been used for the style parts mainly the guitars. With older keyboard styles they did not have Mega voices.

Offline DrakeM

Re: Why no audio style development
« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2019, 03:15:19 PM »
This happens when Mega voices have been used for the style parts mainly the guitars. With older keyboard styles they did not have Mega voices.

Hi Eileen,

This isn’t an issue on just the older keyboards, this happens with all the keyboards. You can go to your own keyboard and try changing out the different MEGA guitars, some will sound TOO soft, the guitar phrase will have missing parts. The volume will very within the picking pattern sounding all wrong with a different guitar voice. They are not all inter-changeable even on the TOTL keyboards.

The more MEGA voices Yamaha uses in their Onboard styles, the LESS freedom you have for creating your own personal custom styles. Maybe that is Yamaha's long term game plan, once you purchase their $5000+ keyboard and you get board with the 500+ styles that came with it, they figure you will fork over more money to purchase their addon packs in a couple years.

Regards
Drake

Offline Jay B.

Re: Why no audio style development
« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2019, 03:42:26 AM »
As a follow up to my post above, the audio styles will not work with chord step recording, either. I now am rethinking my purchase of my PSR-S970 last year as this limitation reduces the effectiveness of the keyboard for quickly recording Midi songs using styles and then editing. The best sounding styles on the keyboard are not available for use.

Maybe you all knew this, maybe I should have known, but now I am thinking about selling it and looking at the SX900 or Genos.

Jay B.
 

Offline EileenL

Re: Why no audio style development
« Reply #25 on: August 26, 2019, 03:38:28 PM »
Audio Styles no longer come as part of the new keyboards Genos or SX900. They now use revo drums which are much better and you can record them in midi.

Offline Toril S

Re: Why no audio style development
« Reply #26 on: August 26, 2019, 05:02:35 PM »
Audio styles are useless for me. Awsy with them!
« Last Edit: August 26, 2019, 06:19:21 PM by Toril S »
Toril S

Tyros 5, PSR S975, PSR 2100 and PSR-47.
Former keyboards: PSR-S970.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLVwWdb36Yd3LMBjAnm6pTQ?view_as=subscriber



Toril's PSR Performer Page
 

Offline beykock

Re: Why no audio style development
« Reply #27 on: August 26, 2019, 05:59:53 PM »
Wished I could remove these audio styles from my T5.

I have never used them.

Impossible dream, I guess.😧

Babette
« Last Edit: August 26, 2019, 06:05:11 PM by beykock »
NO BUSINESS LIKE SHOW BUSINESS
 

Offline Toril S

Re: Why no audio style development
« Reply #28 on: August 26, 2019, 06:21:26 PM »
Sometimes you can find the same style in a prs. format on a different keyboard.
Toril S

Tyros 5, PSR S975, PSR 2100 and PSR-47.
Former keyboards: PSR-S970.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLVwWdb36Yd3LMBjAnm6pTQ?view_as=subscriber



Toril's PSR Performer Page
 

Offline Amwilburn

Re: Why no audio style development
« Reply #29 on: August 26, 2019, 10:38:53 PM »
Yes, audio styles sound great but are of limited use (can't record on a PSR or CVP internally, you need an external audio recording device, can't edit the drums, limited tempo range). As for Mega voices, you *can* create with them, but you're right that you can't simply swap out the sound on a style; you also can't usually play Megavoices "live" due to stacked samples separated by velocity. Which is why they've now "hidden" the Megavoices (they used to sit in the sample folder with the regular voices), but if you set your keyboard velocity to fixed, and scale through the fixed velocity until you find the sample layer you're looking for, record everything on that, and *then* vary the velocity for some expression (but staying within the desired sample layer), you *can* use Megavoices for programming. I have... it's a bit esoteric, but doable.

But you're right, it would be really nice if they split up the layer samples the same way so that you could easily substitute another Megavoice instrument; essentially that's how Super Articulation came to be.

I don't think they'll be focusing on audio styles anymore, alas... I assume that's why they they gave users the ability to make their own via Audio Phraser

Offline andyg

Re: Why no audio style development
« Reply #30 on: August 27, 2019, 07:05:33 PM »
I hardly ever use them. Touted as being the best thing since sliced bread, you very soon came across all the issues that have been mentioned above, and I found another. One of my exam students was working out a very complex arrangement for her Grade 7 exam. We needed to change styles part way through the tune and that would have involved seamlessly switching from a regular style to an audio style. Of course you can't do that, as the audio style has to load in. You ended up with a gap in the drum part. Useless. We had to use regular styles throughout.

With the advent of Revo drums (and to be honest it's not before time as VST drums have been using round robin samples [wave cycling if you wish] for years), they were no longer needed. I think Yamaha saw audio styles as a stop gap until Revo drums were ready.

As for the other parts of a style being audio, I'm not convinced. BIAB does it with ease, of course, as you've told it exactly what chords, fills, breaks etc you want in advance and it calculates what it's going to do before starting playback. I've created some great sound tracks with it. But when I tried the Ketron Audya, I had problems getting it to change chords predictably and smoothly. And when I started asking it for things like Fm11 or D7b9#5, it couldn't deliver. That was a few years ago and I haven't tried one since, maybe they've got things to work better. If full audio styles had been a runner, then Yamaha (and, as has been said, they did the legwork on it and got the patents) would have surely run with it.

Conspicuous by their absence on Genos and SX series keyboards, I think Yamaha have consigned them to the bin. Good riddance to them IMHO.
It's not what you play, it's not how you play. It's the fact that you're playing that counts.

www.andrew-gilbert.com
 

Offline Toril S

Re: Why no audio style development
« Reply #31 on: August 27, 2019, 07:28:17 PM »
Yes, good riddance!
Toril S

Tyros 5, PSR S975, PSR 2100 and PSR-47.
Former keyboards: PSR-S970.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLVwWdb36Yd3LMBjAnm6pTQ?view_as=subscriber



Toril's PSR Performer Page
 

Offline Enildo

Re: Why no audio style development
« Reply #32 on: August 27, 2019, 08:34:21 PM »
Hello friends!

I see things as follows:
01. I have a style that I use to play music from the 60s, I have this style for many years, and I don't see the need to change anything about it. So I recorded real guitars (audio) and put it on one of the tracks and it greatly improved the quality of my performance.
If you have a good audio drum beat or if you have a good audio guitar you don't have to be poking. If you want to change something, it will take more work, of course, but it will be worth every time it has been spent;
02. About the time change, when a style is recorded at time 90, for example, we will hardly play that style at a time of 50 or 140, etc. We usually shift up or down a bit (80 <-90-> 100), which audio style suits very well.
03. When using regional styles audio styles are best. To this day yamaha has not been able to record a good style of "Forró", a style genuinely made and played in northeastern Brazil, which provided. The styles of Forró, Xote, Vaneira recorded by our own hands give 10 to 0 in what yamaha has produced to this day.

I hope you understand this text, as translations sometimes do not convey 100% of what we mean.

Enildo
« Last Edit: August 27, 2019, 08:36:14 PM by Enildo »
When word fail, Music speaks!
 

Offline hammer

Re: Why no audio style development
« Reply #33 on: August 27, 2019, 08:58:16 PM »
Exactly what Drake posted!!!  I never use Audio styles because they can not be saved to a thumb drive or actually used to setup gig sets.   When that changes I would use them.

Deane
 

Offline EileenL

Re: Why no audio style development
« Reply #34 on: August 28, 2019, 11:56:58 AM »
With Genos you can save to a USB stick. You need to load the styles firstly via YEM you can then save them to a UBS Stick or User. Once done you can then remove from YEM.

Offline hammer

Re: Why no audio style development
« Reply #35 on: August 28, 2019, 03:34:36 PM »
Hi Eileen,
I don't use YEM.  I want to simply be able to save a style and rename it as a song like we do with all other styles and place it in a folder such as 1940's or 1960's.  So far, the audio styles do not allow me to do this.   Maybe someday.

Deane
 

Offline hans1966

Re: Why no audio style development
« Reply #36 on: August 28, 2019, 04:50:31 PM »
In my humble opinion, I think audio styles are designed
To play in concert. In one occasion I used only the MIDI parts of an Audio style to create a song, since I cannot edit the Audio style. Obviously some will say that you can record and edit the Audio in a DAW, but I prefer to create and edit my sequences directly on the keyboard. Greetings. Hans
 

Offline Joe H

Re: Why no audio style development
« Reply #37 on: August 28, 2019, 08:07:16 PM »
There is too big of a sonic difference between the audio drums and the rest of the style Parts. Yamaha can do better by improving the drum (MIDI) samples instead of using audio drums.

Sometimes a good idea just doesn't work... IE; audio styles.

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline Toril S

Re: Why no audio style development
« Reply #38 on: August 28, 2019, 10:47:27 PM »
Audio styles make me sigh audibly!
Toril S

Tyros 5, PSR S975, PSR 2100 and PSR-47.
Former keyboards: PSR-S970.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLVwWdb36Yd3LMBjAnm6pTQ?view_as=subscriber



Toril's PSR Performer Page
 

Offline EileenL

Re: Why no audio style development
« Reply #39 on: August 28, 2019, 11:22:16 PM »
As it  is only the drums that are Audio you can always pick an on board style with a similar drum pattern and copy the audio midi parts to it. Then you can use it as normal.
 
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