Author Topic: Entry level learning and production pipeline  (Read 2614 times)

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Offline 3dc

Entry level learning and production pipeline
« on: July 31, 2019, 11:45:31 AM »
As you know I am trying to setup a simple, affordable and long term music learning and production pipeline but without MIDI keyboards. The initial idea is to buy Yamaha PSR-S670 for my first keyboard and once learned solid basics I would then use it as master keyboard for music production on my PC (really simple games and animation music).

Now I wonder....

Yamaha PSR-S670 is filled with 416 Voice + 34 Drum/SFX Kits + 480 XG Voices. Can I use them in my completely empty DAW (Cockos Reaper) or I have to buy virtual instruments plugins for Reaper?

Can Reaper edit both audio and midi from my PSR keyboard voices in the same way as its able to edit vst plugins?

Thanks for help guys!
The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.
- Martin Luther King, Jr.
 

Offline SeaGtGruff

Re: Entry level learning and production pipeline
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2019, 06:16:36 PM »
You can play the PSR-S670, send its MIDI output to the computer, and record the data to MIDI tracks in REAPER.

You can play the PSR-S670, send its audio output to the computer, and record the sounds to audio tracks in REAPER.

You can play MIDI tracks in REAPER, send the data to the PSR-S670, and have the PSR-S670 generate sounds using the indicated voices and notes. If you are also sending the PSR-S670's audio output to the computer, you can record the resulting sounds to audio tracks in REAPER.

So yes, you can use the PSR-S670 (or other MIDI keyboard instrument) as though it were a VST plug-in, as long as the PSR-S670 is connected to the computer and turned on so it can receive MIDI instructions from REAPER and then send the resulting audio back to REAPER.
Michael Rideout
Current keyboards: Yamaha YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443, PSR-EW400, MX49 BK
Current controllers: M-Audio Axiom 61-II
Previous keyboards: Farfisa Matador 611; Casio CTK-710
 
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Offline 3dc

Re: Entry level learning and production pipeline
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2019, 06:29:14 PM »
So yes, you can use the PSR-S670 (or other MIDI keyboard instrument) as though it were a VST plug-in.

I was worried no one would see my post due to PSR-SX buzz on this forum. I can't thank you enough for this information. I read the PSR-S670 "computer related information" but the info is very confusing or like in theory this should work.   

Thanks again for clarification.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2019, 06:30:20 PM by 3dc »
The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.
- Martin Luther King, Jr.
 

Offline SeaGtGruff

Re: Entry level learning and production pipeline
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2019, 08:47:29 PM »
You're welcome! I don't have a PSR-S670, but I do this sort of thing with my PSR-E keyboards. :)
Michael Rideout
Current keyboards: Yamaha YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443, PSR-EW400, MX49 BK
Current controllers: M-Audio Axiom 61-II
Previous keyboards: Farfisa Matador 611; Casio CTK-710
 

Offline 3dc

Re: Entry level learning and production pipeline
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2019, 08:12:27 AM »
I now understand a little bit more about music production using only PC and master MIDI keyboard ( no sound - only data ) but the one with arranger keyboard ( MIDI and sound ) is still a bit unclear to me. Its clear to me that in all digital music production basically there are no limits when working with VST, plugins and DAW.

What would be a simple workflow in empty Reaper DAW ( no virtual instruments or sounds ) with Yamaha arranger keyboard ( in function as VST instrument ) and its sounds on ultra simple example:

Sounds: Drums + Bass + Piano + Guitar

Since Reaper has no sounds and I want to use arranger sounds anyway how do I assemble these sounds into one song with Yamaha workstation-arranger?  So things that are not clear to me are:

Is step edit and sequencer in Reaper DAW using Yamaha sounds possible?
How do you then render a complete song ( Yamaha or Reaper )?

Sorry for bothering you guys... :-[

P.S. I am armed with literature for music theory, home studio music production and all sorts of books and video tutorials for keyboard and piano. I just have to chew them somehow.  :)
The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.
- Martin Luther King, Jr.
 

Offline panos

Re: Entry level learning and production pipeline
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2019, 09:07:35 AM »
You can play the PSR-S670, send its audio output to the computer, and record the sounds to audio tracks in REAPER.

Audio means that if you play a piano sound in your psr lets say a 16th note C and send this recording to a DAW then it will always be a piano sound of a 16th note as it was sounded on your psr.You cannot change that.
So the DAW in this case is just a recorder.Audacity can do this job also.Don't need a DAW for this.

Many times this is not very useful because if it was a midi recording(data recording) yes it would be a 16th note C and you could choose a piano sound from a VST (not from your keyboard)
but you could do whatever you wanted with this note.You could easily make it sound as an 8th D note for example and with a saxophone sound.

Sometimes people choose to record both ways in a single song:
Some instruments as audio recordings because their playing is perfect and don't want to "touch" anything and want to use the saxophone sound of their keyboard because they like it,
And sometimes for some parts they transfer the midi data of a recording and then choose another sound,add effects etc.
Or the rest parts they are making them directly to the DAW using just the keybed of the psr.

Remember that even when you want to transfer an audio recording to a DAW you can still record as a midi on your keyboard,change or correct things with your keyboard of this midi and then, when it sounds good, you can send it to the DAW as audio recording.

A DAW without VST's is not useful at all !!!

You can still record up to 16 tracks (16 different instruments) on your keyboard as a midi and then convert the whole project to audio format(.wav).Then you can convert the .wav to .mp3 on your pc if you wish etc.

Offline 3dc

Re: Entry level learning and production pipeline
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2019, 09:36:53 AM »
A DAW without VST's is not useful at all !!!

This is the part I am so confused. I would like to eliminate the use of any virtual instruments and use strictly Yamaha workstation as if it was the only virtual instrument in Reaper DAW. So the question is can you transpose, step edit, use DAW sequencer, change sounds from Yamaha like you would in any regular virtual instrument in DAW? And if possible how do you render this edits into complete song using Yamaha workstation. Or you can only use Yamaha workstation like in Audacity for simple edit and recording and nothing more?

Thanks for help! 
« Last Edit: August 11, 2019, 09:46:53 AM by 3dc »
The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.
- Martin Luther King, Jr.
 

Offline panos

Re: Entry level learning and production pipeline
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2019, 11:01:55 AM »
Well,first of all let's eliminate an option.
Let's say that you transfer all the midi data of your recording to Reaper.
Now Reaper needs "voices" from instruments to transform the midi to sound.Right?
Can it use the Yamaha voices? No.
Yamaha voices need a program to handle them.For example a Yamaha voice is this kind of file: grandpiano.vce.
Where is this program that can handle those files?
Only inside the Yamaha keyboard.

So as long as there is not Yamaha voices inside Reaper ,it needs a VST to transform the midi data to sound.
Windows Media Player for example has a very basic kind of VST to play the midi files.

So the only option to keep the psr s voices is to handle those recorded midi data ONLY directly on the keyboard.
It has a feature called Song Creator to change the recorded notes,add effects,change the sounds etc.
In this case the keyboard is a DAW with just one VST installed.The Yamaha voices that keyboard has.
Is it as easy to use as a job that could be done on a computer? No.
But there is still some programs that can handle the midi files of a Yamaha keyboard WITHOUT loosing the Yamaha voices.
https://psrtutorial.com/MB/mixMaster.html

Here how we can record and handle our midi recording on the keyboard:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIj9YQYHysw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0TR9S4Th7A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ipIYnNd8nI&t=445s


So the recording below I have made it just by pushing the Rec button.All the sounds that you are hearing are recorded as midi data.So if i wish I can equalize,add effects,delete a wrong note etc just by using my keyboard and then convert the recording to an audio file again.
Recording something like this without a style on a DAW it would have taken me countless hours.
Not to mention that I would have to find out all the notes for every instrument should play.
(There are thousands of single notes in just one recording :()
I have just chosen this job to be done by the....style.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2ziAcYHE9Y

Or If I wish I can take the whole recording to a DAW and handle the changes there and use others,not Yamaha voices,add extra instruments etc.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2019, 11:24:33 AM by panos »
 
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Offline 3dc

Re: Entry level learning and production pipeline
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2019, 12:43:05 PM »
Panos thank you for your guide and clarification! BTW impressive improv on YT.

So to summarize and for future reference:

  • PSR-S arrangers-workstations OS is essentially a simple but very capable DAW with proprietary non editable .vce voices. These are not editable in external DAW.
  • The only thing editable externally is midi data and sound created with .vce voices.
  • You really need an external DAW ( Reaper ) only for ultra complex arrangements or if you need to change sounds with other non Yamaha sounds using midi data.
  • I can do some simple on the fly editing or finishing touches even in Audacity.
  • Since Yamaha PSR-S670 does have SONG CREATOR but has no STEP EDIT I would have to simply play the part of the song without any mistake before registering into memory. The rest is then the same as in any other PSR-S workstation.

Did I get it right this time?  :-[ :P :)
Now I understand why Yamaha is using VOICES instead of SOUNDS in the naming convention.  ;D

Thanks again for kind help!
 
« Last Edit: August 11, 2019, 01:43:09 PM by 3dc »
The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.
- Martin Luther King, Jr.
 

Offline panos

Re: Entry level learning and production pipeline
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2019, 01:55:54 PM »
You got that right.
So the s670 sounds great but it has it's restrictions compared to an s770 and the s770 got it's restrictions compared to an s970 and s970 got it's restrictions compared to a Tyros 5 or a Genos.
The more you pay, the more extras you have and a little or more better sound(it depends in anyone's taste in sounds)
That's why the differences in prices that you have wondered why this is happening.
The more VST's you buy the more sound samples you have to choose from.Same thing with keyboards.

Audacity cannot change the sound but works more like an Equalizer,or you can combine more than 16 tracks,or you can create fade in,fade out of your track and things like that.

When you see a piano roll (a virtual keybed) in any DAW on a youtube video and stuff like these "- _ --_------"  those are in fact midi data(notes).
When you see something that looks like a cardiogram  :P that is a recorded sound or a recorded melody or a whole track which they will combine it with the other tracks.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2019, 02:00:16 PM by panos »
 
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Offline valio7771

Re: Entry level learning and production pipeline
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2019, 06:15:28 PM »
Hey 3ds,

If you intention is to ultimately edit and record your music in a DAW, but need the instant inspiration of an arranger keyboard, that may work for you without breaking the bank as well.
I'm don't know the reasoning why you've stopped on Reaper in particular, but there are other alternatives that are 100% free and have complete suite of VST sounds and FX, like Cakewalk by Bandlab. And there are tonnes websites full of free VST instruments that are genuinely good sounding. If you say you're still a beginner at the keyboard, the tools that S670 bundled with a DAW is gonna be more than enough for your needs in the near future till you perfection the keys and the tools you have in your hands.

If you need any detailed information regarding getting started, stetting up software and hardware, don't think twice to send me a PM with any questions that may worry you, I'll be glad to help ;)

Cheers

Valentin

Offline 3dc

Re: Entry level learning and production pipeline
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2019, 07:32:56 PM »
Thanks Valentin for help and support.

I have to constrain myself to limited options while learning all music basics so no DAWs with tons and tons of goodies for now. I think even Yamaha PSR-E363 is slight overkill for me at this point let alone PSR-S670. :)   
The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.
- Martin Luther King, Jr.