Topic: "What of your wishlist did 1.4 take care of ?"

[Kaarlo von Freymann]

Hi everyone,
now that we have installed the irreversible 1.4 - not only seen the list of what has been added or fixed  - could members please check and post what of their "wishlist" and "rantlist" has actually been taken care of. 

To be positive, one of my concerns seems to have been among "other fixes" not explained in detail.  My registry banks seem to have better memory now e.g. what Genos calls up corresponds better to what is listed as content in the registry bank information. (at least to-day)  I have been advised that my Genos is the only one among the umpteen thousands sold so a big thanks to YAMAHA for having taken care of such a rare problem. Manufacurers generally concentrate on common problems.

And yes, I do like what has been added to the main screen. though I might have difficulties seeing them at tomorrow's garden party gig. In Finland the sun in some places never sets this time of the year 

Cheers

Kaarlo

[John T4]

well it certainly fixed the external display problem, when wanting to show lyrics on Karaoke files. Now works perfectly, even into HDMI

[KeyboardByBiggs]

I haven't tried it yet, but I'm looking forward to the new function where knobs and sliders don't initially jump values when you first touch them.

[Dromeus]

From my personal whish list, nothing was implemented.
As I stated already in advance, it was hard for me to believe, that my wishes come true.
Having said that, I'd like to point out that firmware 1.40 absolutely fulfills my expectations.
If that weren't enough I got even two goodies that I really like:

- Many additional functions have been included for assignment to individual controllers on the Live Control display and the Assignable display.
- When operating the on-screen knobs and vertical sliders, the first touch will not change the value immediately, but only select (focus) it.

That's what I call a real bonus (no sh*t)! I'm looking forward to a possible update 1.50 which some believe to happen in autumn. Maybe that is realistic, but don't forget to mention that the target may be autumn 2020.

[StuartR]

I recently had a situation where some of the Genos characters didn't display correctly and this update claims to fix a problem like that.... so we'll see.

[Lee Batchelor]

When operating the on-screen knobs and vertical sliders, the first touch will not change the value immediately, but only select (focus) it.

I saw the video demo with the touch screen. This is a good upgrade, but I still don't see how this works with the physical sliders ?

Why do we have to move the sliders at all before the value changes? Why can't they operate the same way as the sliders on the old Hammond organs?? With those, you could slowly move them up or down (in or out) and gradually introduce the changes. With the Genos, you must move the sliders a lot before anything happens, and then it's too late. If the update allows us to move the slider a whole lot just to get its attention, and then set it where we want - that's useless and overly complicated. In other words, to make changes with the sliders, we need to do two processes instead of one. Where's the common sense in this design? What am I missing here??? Moving a slider or knob just to give it the focus is totally wrong!

[Fred Smith]

now that we have installed the irreversible 1.4 - not only seen the list of what has been added or fixed  - could members please check and post what of their "wishlist" and "rantlist" has actually been taken care of. 

Amazing how a thread with a specific subject line can degenerate so quickly.

Cheers,
Fred

[Kaarlo von Freymann]

I saw the video demo with the touch screen. This is a good upgrade, but I still don't see how this works with the physical sliders ?

 

Dear Lee, I think the problem with the sliders was earlier discussed on this site. I may be wrong, but having once had a luxurious mixer to mix down my 16 ch Tascam (was it 1" tape ?) recorder I can still see the motorized faders ghostly go to their positions from where you could manually move them to make further adjustments.
Am I wrong, one cannot have electrical value and physical position of a slider correspond without motorized faders.  Digital wheels let you start correctly where you are but do not show the actual position physically just as the wheel on Genos.  The motorized mixer  did cost much more than the Genos now, but even Behringer's motorized mixer made in China like Genos is not cheap.

Cheers

Kaarlo

[Lee Batchelor]

Good points, Kaarlo. I'm not sure of the science behind physical sliders, other than to say, it was nice to simply push or pull on a Hammond slider, and hear the difference in sound right away. Not so with the Genos. You have to "wake the slider up" before adjusting it. To wake it up you must substantially change its value because of the physical distance needed to get its attention. By then, you've overshot your intended change. As mentioned, totally useless architecture for live players.

[Snicker740]

I haven't tried it yet, but I'm looking forward to the new function where knobs and sliders don't initially jump values when you first touch them.

I tried it, it works like Yamaha promised in the update

[Fred Smith]

Good points, Kaarlo. I'm not sure of the science behind physical sliders, other than to say, it was nice to simply push or pull on a Hammond slider, and hear the difference in sound right away. Not so with the Genos. You have to "wake the slider up" before adjusting it. To wake it up you must substantially change its value because of the physical distance needed to get its attention. By then, you've overshot your intended change. As mentioned, totally useless architecture for live players.

In fact, the physical sliders work well for live players who use only them. In their case, the sliders are always set at the correct level, and any movement is registered seamlessly.

The problem comes for those of us who set a slider value using something other than the slider, like a registration. In this case, a registration might have set the value at 100, when the slider's at 20. Now, the first move of the slider starts at 100 (the current setting), then quickly changes to physical position's value. This makes the sliders useless for me, as I use registrations almost exclusively. And I don't see how the problem gets fixed because it's a hardware problem, not a software problem.

That's why I use only the online sliders, which is one of the real improvements of the Genos over the Tyros, which did not have online sliders. They solve my problem.

Cheers,
Fred

[Lee Batchelor]

Great explanation, Fred! Now I understand why the physical sliders don't work for me - I play all my gigs using nothing but registrations. The onscreen adjustments would be fine with this new fix, but still involve two movements, which takes eons of time when trying to play properly. As live players, we are basically forced to use the onscreen method.

One thing though - when I call up a registration, it's associated velocities are displayed in the slider and knob window. Why do we still need to give them a little movement before edging them up or down? Still seems like a terrible design.

[tyrosaurus]

Am I wrong, one cannot have electrical value and physical position of a slider correspond without motorized faders.  Digital wheels let you start correctly where you are but do not show the actual position physically just as the wheel on Genos.  The motorized mixer  did cost much more than the Genos now, but even Behringer's motorized mixer made in China like Genos is not cheap.

Hi Kaarlo,

It is a simple thing to show the 'position' of a rotary encoder by surrounding it by a ring of LEDs.

These can be illuminated in different ways, e.g. only at the current position (like the marker line on a knob), or up to the current position, but whichever way is chosen, it allows the 'knob' to show the current position corresponding to the control setting, and more importantly start from that setting (without any jumps!) when you make changes to it.  Whenever you load a different style, voice, etc. the controllers can immediately indicate the current settings without the need for motors or whatever to actually move the position.

Yamaha are well practised in the use of rotary encoders - they are on the Montage for example, but for some reason, they insist on sticking with analogue rotary and linear (slider) potentiometers on the arrangers, which are more or less useless for live use.

I assume that they think that sliders make the product look more 'professional'    However I would much prefer something that actually worked and could be used!

Here is a link to a video demonstration of Montage.  It is not specifically about rotary encoders, but it does show them and how they indicate their position.  In the video they are being 'moved' automatically by the Super Knob, which is itself being automatically varied by the sequencer.  However the position indicator LEDs for each encoder would respond in the same way if its position was changed by hand.

https://uk.yamaha.com/en/products/music_production/synthesizers/montage/index.html

As you say, its too late to get such common sense on Genos at this stage, but maybe on Genos2?  Somehow I doubt it since it never seemed to occur to Yamaha during the whole lifetime of the Tyros models!

I eventually bought Genos suspecting that I would be disappointed with its usability, and I got exactly what I expected.

This 'bug fix' 1.40 does little to change my opinion!

I am waiting a while before installing it to see if it contains any little 'bombs' that Yamaha have included with it, intentional or otherwise! For starters, how about the removal of the main voice parts On/Off from the list of functions assignable to a pedal.  It seems that you can now only assign this function to an assignable button (which is only a few inches away from the actual voice part panel switches)! Sensible, or what?


Regards

Ian

[EileenL]

I find the sliders are working much more positive now and there is no need to press twice at all. A good improvement of what they were like.
  I am wondering if people are trying these things for themselves before posing. No good asking if you have not tried them.

[hoangbr2014]

There is no change at all.

[Lee Batchelor]

Eileen, I'm talking about the physical sliders. I use them a lot in performances. If the 1.4 update didn't change how they function, I won't bother upgrading. Besides, how can people safely try out this update when there's no turning back? We must rely on our fellow Genos users for their feedback - good or bad .

[Lee Batchelor]

There is no change at all.

If you're referring to the physical sliders, then it doesn't surprise me. They're useless for live work. Too bad 1.4 didn't fix this issue!

[EileenL]

Well I find the sliders a lot more positive and better to use. Each to his own as they say.

[Kaarlo von Freymann]

Hi Kaarlo,
It is a simple thing to show the 'position' of a rotary encoder by surrounding it by a ring of LEDs.
....I assume that they think that sliders make the product look more 'professional'    However I would much prefer something that actually worked and could be used!....As you say, its too late to get such common sense on Genos at this stage, but maybe on Genos2?  Somehow I doubt it since it never seemed to occur to Yamaha during the whole lifetime of the Tyros models!.....I eventually bought Genos suspecting that I would be disappointed with its usability, and I got exactly what I expected......This 'bug fix' 1.40 does little to change my opinion!


Regards

Ian

Hi Ian,
Seldom have I felt such an urge to say "Thankyou".   Now I know not only something about sliders I did not know,  now I  know I am not alone.

Cheers

Kaarlo

[Lee Batchelor]

Well I find the sliders a lot more positive and better to use. Each to his own as they say.

Eileen, are you saying the physical sliders are a lot more responsive too? If so, I'll install the upgrade. So far, they are absolutely dismal for making changes while playing live. Thanks .

[ugawoga]

More memory to save midi setups in the song sequencer
The more complicated a song, the more movements on mixer sliders etc
atb
John

[a1gene]

T think the sliders have more utility now, too, considering they're used for so many different adjustments. Jumping instantly from a low to high value or vice-versa is something I think you'd want to avoid in a lot of circumstances. The slight delay gives you time to quickly get them to approximately correct positions. Not particularly good for organ drawbar settings, but...oh, well.

[terryB]

I find the sliders greatly improved, without the initial jump in volume. Its the one thing that I noticed in the little time I had playing after installing the update.

Give Yamaha a big tick and mark 10/10 with a note 'keep up the good work'

Cheers
Terry

[tyrosaurus]

I find the sliders greatly improved, without the initial jump in volume. Its the one thing that I noticed in the little time I had playing after installing the update.

Hi Terry,

Are you saying that after installing Ver 1.40, there is no longer any jump in volume when using the actual physical sliders?

This would seem unlikely, since the update Version History for 1.40 only mentions modifying the behaviour of the on-screen sliders (in the Mixer for example).   Here is what it says...

"-Changes: When operating the on-screen knobs and vertical sliders, the first touch will not change the value immediately, but only select (focus) it."

I have waited before installing this update on my Genos, but if the action of the physical sliders really has been improved, then I may well go ahead and install it, even though I don't like the fact that it no longer allows you to use pedals to switch the Left & Right main voice parts on and off.


Regards

Ian

[terryB]

Hi Ian, I haven't had a good go with it yet, and I did not like the original way it seem to work, did not use them much (the volume could jump), but I got the feeling I could get used to the new way they operated. May be there is a time delay after the initial touch of the slider before the volume is triggered from the slider operation.

Cheers
Terry

[Lee Batchelor]

Thanks for the info about the physical sliders. When someone has a definite answer to this question, please post it. Many thanks....

[Tankdave]

Just tested this again guys and the "Physical" sliders are just as useless as before.

i.e. In my test I loaded a Registration with R3 volume sitting at 127, & the "mechanical" slider set approx in the middle of its range.

Soon as I move the physical/mechanical/real "R3" slider, my R3 volume jumps to a value of 62. (this value will depend where the slider is before you move it)

Like I say its just as useless, especially for EDM where I want to bring sounds in & out of my mix.

It looked good on paper but in reality v1.40 is nothing much for me.

[Bill]

Eileen, are you saying the physical sliders are a lot more responsive too? If so, I'll install the upgrade. So far, they are absolutely dismal for making changes while playing live. Thanks .

Hi Lee

In answer to your question - NO

We all know that Yamaha made a big Design Error when choosing not to implement Encoders or Motorised faders, however I for one bought the Genos knowing this.
What they have attempted to do is make the problem of not having a feedback on the faders, a little less pronounced on the initial change (Memory to Physical). They have achieved this be introducing a 400 mSEC delay between the movement of the Slider and the change in volume.   HOWEVER this delay is still applied when the slider id in sync with the MIDI memory. Therefore when ever you make a change you do not actually hear the difference in sound level for that delay.   As far as I'm concerned they have TRASHED a brilliant keyboard. What is more we can not go back to how it was when we made the original purchase. 

The other thing I dislike is the change in the method of working.   Having had my KB for 18 months now, I am used to how it work (or at least I WAS).  Adding more options for assignable feature is great but now they are grouped into Categories.  UGH.

For the first time in my long association with Yamaha Keyboards I am extremely disappointed.

Score out of 10   ----   01

Bill

[Lee Batchelor]

Thanks, Tankdave and Bill. I didn't think there would be any change.

It figures that the physical sliders cannot operate in the same fashion as the Hammond organ sliders. Bill mentions "motorized faders." He's absolutely right. For the sliders to work perfectly, they would need to be motorized. Each time we select a registration, all eight sliders would need to move into sync with their respective MIDI velocities on the touch screen. Otherwise, they have no frame of reference. When a velocity is set at 127 but its slider is at the bottom of its excursion, it means nothing to the Genos. There's no actual connection between the digital data and the physical slider. Adding motorized sliders would increase the price, which is already very high and there would be just one more thing to break or fail over time. So I guess the best option is to use the touch screen because Yamaha has eliminated the problem of sudden velocity changes just by touching the desired slider first. Now I get it .

The sliders are still almost useless for live play. They only eliminate one action - and that's having to touch the screen. Sadly, that advantage disappears if you're in another screen because now you have to press an Assignable button to get back to the slider screen.

All things considered, I'm still delighted with the Genos. I've had a lot more comments about how good it sounds than any other keyboard I've owned. At this point, I doubt I'll upgrade to 1.4 because of the grouping of categories. I like things where there are. Too bad Yamaha didn't implement alphabetical order in all the lists !!

[Fred Smith]

Too bad Yamaha didn't implement alphabetical order in all the lists !!

You got that right.

Cheers,
Fred