Author Topic: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....  (Read 7422 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline beykock

Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
« Reply #50 on: June 18, 2019, 07:50:22 PM »
Hi DonM:

Well said ! 👌

The Korg PA4X is the only real competitor of the Genos today, as far as I know.

Both arrangers are pro instruments but they are different.

It is up to the enduser/player to decide :  a Genos or a PA4X or both.

All depends on the needs of the individual player, IMHO.

However, before he/she can make a final decision, he/she
has to " know " both arrangers very well.

To " know an arranger keyboard " takes a lot of time and energy but it saves a lot of irritation, useless discussions, painful and expensive regrets.

Best regards, Babette


 
« Last Edit: June 18, 2019, 07:55:20 PM by beykock »
 

Offline travlin-easy

Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
« Reply #51 on: June 18, 2019, 10:55:58 PM »
Abby, what size shirt do you wear? I have many that I would be glad to send you from when I was still on stage. They are satin, variety of colors, have matching ties and all are XL. If they will fit, they are yours at no charge. I also have a summer tuxedo, which jacket, black slacks, size 44. All this stuff needs a new home, preferably a full-time entertainer. They are yours for the asking.

All the best,

Gary 8)
Love Those Yammies...
 

Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
« Reply #52 on: June 18, 2019, 11:00:10 PM »

..... I live 100 miles from AudioWorksCt and have been able to try every arranger I purchased....

I am always amazed that Americans feel  100 miles is just nothing.  When coming home at 6 PM from his work a very dear friend of mine in L.A. years ago said to me,  "Let's go and see my cousin, he lives just round the corner." Being Finnish I imagined that would be a 15 minutes drive. We drove over 400 miles round trip . :)  I sometimes drive to see the YAMAHA importer for Finland,  they used to be located  3 miles from my house. Now they have moved very far away,  is it 12 miles.

Cheers

Kaarlo
The year you were born is unimportant as long as you can still play your keyboard and don't have to change the treble setting
 

Offline stephenm52

Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
« Reply #53 on: June 19, 2019, 12:45:13 AM »
I am always amazed that Americans feel  100 miles is just nothing.  When coming home at 6 PM from his work a very dear friend of mine in L.A. years ago said to me,  "Let's go and see my cousin, he lives just round the corner." Being Finnish I imagined that would be a 15 minutes drive. We drove over 400 miles round trip . :)  I sometimes drive to see the YAMAHA importer for Finland,  they used to be located  3 miles from my house. Now they have moved very far away,  is it 12 miles.

Cheers

Kaarlo

This does all sound familiar.  I live in the smallest state in the United States, it is smaller than Yosemite National Park.  Most people who live where I do think driving 10 or 15 miles is a long trip.
GENOS, Clavinova CVP 307, SX900, Korg Pa4x-76

Steve's Genos Recordings

Steve's Gig Disks
 

Offline stephenm52

Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
« Reply #54 on: June 19, 2019, 12:48:56 AM »
Abby, what size shirt do you wear? I have many that I would be glad to send you from when I was still on stage. They are satin, variety of colors, have matching ties and all are XL. If they will fit, they are yours at no charge. I also have a summer tuxedo, which jacket, black slacks, size 44. All this stuff needs a new home, preferably a full-time entertainer. They are yours for the asking.

All the best,

Gary 8)

Abby, Gary has some nice clothing he was kind enough to send me a nice selection of his satin shirts, vests and matching ties/bow ties.  The only reason I didnít want his tux because I already had 3 and rarely wear them at gigs.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2019, 11:05:35 AM by stephenm52 »
GENOS, Clavinova CVP 307, SX900, Korg Pa4x-76

Steve's Genos Recordings

Steve's Gig Disks
 

Offline Pianoman

Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
« Reply #55 on: June 19, 2019, 04:10:03 AM »
Abby, what size shirt do you wear? I have many that I would be glad to send you from when I was still on stage. They are satin, variety of colors, have matching ties and all are XL. If they will fit, they are yours at no charge. I also have a summer tuxedo, which jacket, black slacks, size 44. All this stuff needs a new home, preferably a full-time entertainer. They are yours for the asking.

All the best,

Gary 8)

Hello Gary.
You're a wonderful man and I thank you for your kind offer.

Alas, I'm unable to accept your offer as my place is overflowing with clothes as
well as the problem of size.

If I'm correct, I believe that my US size would be 34.

As for ties, I just bought tie number 105 yesterday and will probably buy a couple more
before the week is over.

I think that I have a tie fetish, as I can't walk past a tie shop without buying one or two.
Probably the same with shoes.

I have about 11 Tux suits that I use for my work, and 3 more for casual  events.

I also wear almost exclusively cotton shirts, of which I have bought 6 in May, to
add to the other ones that I already have.

Thank you for your kindness but I wouldn't know what to do with the extra clothing.

Best Regards old friend.
Abby.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2019, 04:11:46 AM by Pianoman »
 

Offline beykock

Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
« Reply #56 on: June 19, 2019, 05:34:39 AM »
Hi Giggers :

WOW !👏👏👏

You are ALL Wonderful People !😃😃😃

I call it " Real Friendship " !🏆🏆🏆

Babette
« Last Edit: June 19, 2019, 05:47:36 AM by beykock »
 

Offline robinez

Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
« Reply #57 on: June 27, 2019, 10:41:41 AM »
interesting topic.

i also have a korg pa4x and a yamaha genos so i can compare them really well and would like to add my thoughts about it.

My opionion is that it's a matter of personal preference, both keyboards are top of the line but also use a quite different approach.

i agree with all the comments in the previous posts, here are my thoughts regarding some of the comments:

Yamaha Registrations versus Korg songbook:
The yamaha registrations are more like snapshots from your current style setup and also include the style settings. The Korg songbook only has one registration (if you compare it to a genos), however, it uses a different approach, in Korg you can change anything in that style without destroying the original style, this goes really far, you can program new sounds for that specific style, You can change elements of the style (like different sound mappings, other bass patterns, etc), you can create chord sequence to play along for that specific song. Custom multipads and much more. It's extremely powerful and the heart of using a korg pa4x and one style or song registration can be changed in a way that it's impossible to recognise the original style (which still will be the original in the style library).

In the genos this is not really possible, if you make changes that way you have to save the style as a new style, also chord sequences are missing, the reprogramming of sounds on a genos is limited to a few parameters, etc.


Yamaha multipads versus Korg Multipads:
Here the yamaha has a much better implemenation then the korg. It's so easy on a genos to create your own multipads (audio or midi, even custom arpeggiators) with almost no limits to audiosize. Korg has very limited functionality on this part and the Genos is miles ahead in this area.


Styles:
This is a matter of preference. I think if your goal is to play covers that are sounding close to the original arrangements then the yamaha genos is the way to go, there are so many song styles available for the yamaha genos that the list seems endless. The korg pa4x has a much more limited list of styles. Also there are only a few song specific styles available for the korg Pa4x.

Sound wise the styles are mixed differently and also the density of styles are different. The Genos has complete arrangements and sounds more like playing the melody over a cd arrangement. The Korg Pa4x has much sparser styles where you have to do a lot more yourself to get close to playing a cover. The Korg Pa4x is more like playing with a live band.

One thing the Korg has great support for new styles, every 6 till 8 weeks there are free bonus styles available on their website in different genres that you can download for free. This is the case for almost anything on a korg, once you buy a korg then almost anything is free.


Updates:
The korg pa4x had 2 major updates in the last few years. These added lot's of new functions (like a new Kaos Effect Processor, a new very high quality piano, enhanced memory to 3 Gigabytes for your expansion packs by introducing sample streaming functionality and more new sounds, styles, etc). Every major update make it seems like having a brand new Keyboard. And all these updates are free of charge.

The Yamaha genos doesn't have this major features in their updates, the updates until now seems to add only minor addons to the feature set. Maybe in the future it will add major new functionalities?


OTS versus keyboard sets:
If you create your own sound setups (by combining the three upper and one lower element to a total sound) then the Korg Pa4x has a feature called Keyboard Sets, you can save your own sound sets to a library which you can call up anytime you want, even when playing live you can change infinitely between this keyboard sets.

Yamaha does this through the OTS feature, however, those are limited to the selected style. If you want to do something compareable then you have to create up till 10 registrations for your specific song. The OTS is changed depending on the connected style (unless you use the freeze button), but it is possible, although not as convenient as selecting realtime keyboards sets during play.



Creating your own arpeggiators:
Both keyboards can do this, but it is much easier on a yamaha Genos, for instance if you want to connect a new arpeggiator pattern to your left hand, then you can do this within minutes in the multipad midi creator and assign this to a multipad.


Creating your own styles:
The korg pa4x can analyse your midi files to create a new style from it. The results are sometimes really good and sometimes really bad (depending on the midi file). There is a feature on the korg pa4x where you can import a style created in your daw, those results are always really good if you set the labels correctly in your midi file.

The yamaha Genos can create styles onboard by recording every element or by merging elements of styles to create a new version (assembly). This is a very easy proces (much easier then on a korg pa4x), so it's a breeze to create great new styles from elements of the thousends of styles available on a yamaha genos.

I think that for the majority of users the Yamaha genos way is the best way to do it, since it's so easy to do.


Style locations
The korg pa4x has memory slots for every style. Also they can add extra memory slots by using a SET file on a usb stick, but still the memory location space is limited.

The yamaha genos is unlimited, it can load styles in realtime from your usb locations and has a much better system for style management.


User friendly:
The korg pa4x has a very difficult to understand interface, it can do a lot (it even has a fully fledged synthesizer including wave sequencing! on board), but since every button has multiple implementations you need to study a lot before you know your way around a korg pa4x.

The yamaha genos is very easy to understand, the user interface is straight forward and i didn't need much time to understand the feature set.


My conclusion:
There is no good or bad, it's all a matter of preference. Both keyboard are using a very different approach so they complement eachother very well. My opinion is that if you want to play covers in a convenient easy way with lot's of available song styles then the yamaha genos has no competition. If you are looking for a more complex keyboard with lots of programming features and more ranged on styles that sounds like you are playing with a live band then the korg pa4x is a more obvious choice.

Combining both board will give you everything. I'm glad that i have both keyboards, it's not nessecary of course, but it's a lot of fun :)
« Last Edit: June 27, 2019, 11:31:32 AM by robinez »
 

Offline beykock

Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
« Reply #58 on: June 27, 2019, 11:30:55 AM »
Hi Robinez :

Thank you for your comments.

As you have noticed well we discussed this issue many times before.  ;)
Finally we all are coming to the same conclusion.

You are not the only member with a high end Yamaha - and a high end Korg arranger keyboard in this group but most of you ...  are sharing the same conclusion.   

Imagine the Genos2 will have almost all the PA4X features. A real WOW, maybe ?
But ... will Korg wait that long to launch their PA4X successor ?
Will that new Korg kb add also some of the present Genos arranger features and even more ... ? Who knows ?

IMHO I believe both arrangers are great instruments ... they are serious competitors ( yet ) though.
In the near future competition urge might be increased between those two ... or they might become one big family in the long term, who knows.
The arranger market became very small and nowadays only 2 manufacturers are the main players.
 
A close collaboration between both companies is not excluded, I guess.
They are both located in Japan and far away from Europe and the USA. 

Finally it is up to the consumer to decide but their is one important difference : their OS.
Having two brands with a complete different OS makes it not always so easy for the enduser, IMHO.

Bye for now, Babette


« Last Edit: June 27, 2019, 11:36:25 AM by beykock »
 

Wouter1972

  • Guest
Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
« Reply #59 on: June 27, 2019, 12:08:51 PM »

The arranger market became very small and nowadays only 2 manufacturers are the main players.

Finally it is up to the consumer to decide but their is one important difference : their OS.
Having two brands with a complete different OS makes it not always so easy for the enduser, IMHO.


Hi Babette,
I think for users of arranger keyboards it mostly is easy in the sense that you are familiair with the OS of the particular arranger and that it somehow works for you. The fact there is still something to choose for the consumer makes it even more sensible to me ;)

Offline beykock

Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
« Reply #60 on: June 27, 2019, 01:51:43 PM »
Hi Wouter :

Plse do not expect many players here would be happy with a Korg arranger or an additional Korg kb. 

There are plenty of reasons.

Most of these forum members are Yamaha customers for many, many years.

Their Yamaha software collection is super huge.

They are used to work with very useful PC programs especially made by other members of this group.
All these special Yamaha arranger keyboard progs are free of charge and are updated regulary.

Yamaha arranger keyboards are plug-and-play instruments, loved by ALL home players.

Most of these members are not familiar with Korg's OS and Korg's software.

Most members of this forum have no intention to learn Korg's OS. Why should they if they do not own a Korg.

Most of the members of this forum do not want a non-plug-and play arranger keyboard like a PA4X.
A PA4X is a nice keyboard if the player needs a lot of extra applications but most players here want a nice, easy to use pro arranger with the best sound and no technical problems, easy to sell at an attractive price.

Why should one kill a winning horse ?💰

Babette
 

 

Offline metcam

Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
« Reply #61 on: June 27, 2019, 02:45:28 PM »


Yamaha arranger keyboards are plug-and-play instruments, loved by ALL home players.



Babette


This is correct for allmost all musicians from Western Europe ,USA ,Canada ETC. For rest of the world like
Balkan,Eastern Europe,turkey,Middle East etc... is a lot of work after baying yamaha before ready to play.
In my case I use only 5% stuff from Genos and everything else is External like Samples,styles,multipads, etc.

Best Regards
Curent Instruments: GENOS the best of the best and sx900
Previus instruments:PSR-A3000,PSR9000,Tyros2,Tyros3,TYROS5,psr2000,psr2100,psr1500,psr530,psr OR700,DX7,DX11,V50,DX21.
KORG:pa800,KORG PA-900,Triton Extreme,Triton rack,.KORG X3,Roland G600.Roland
 

Offline Pianoman

Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
« Reply #62 on: June 27, 2019, 03:27:12 PM »
I'd like to thank all the Korg PA4X owners and others who have posted comments on
this topic.

I have learned more over the last two weeks about the differences between the Genos
and the Korg than has been written here over the last two years.

One reason for not hearing much about the Korg here is that apart from this being a Yamaha
forum, any mention of Korg here was poorly received, sometimes ( seldom though ) with
thinly disguised hostility by the faithful.

I wish that I had read this kind of discussion a year ago when I was contemplating buying a
new keyboard. It would have been most useful in helping me decide on my next
keyboard.

Thereís a distinction between a want and a need. Just because one wants something doesnít
mean one needs it.
Though this observation is quite obvious, it still is something many people struggle with.

There are those who can afford to "want" a new keyboard or two, and just go out and get it.
There are many here, mostly home players, and I must say that I envy them.
I have an acquaintance, a mediocre player at best, who falls into this category too.

Then there are those who need a new keyboard because their current keyboard has given
up the ghost, or they need one for professional reasons, or a variety of other reasons.
I fall into this category.

I suddenly found myself without a usable keyboard back in February, a couple of days before a
contractual gig. Needing one, I went out and bought the only available professional keyboard
in town, the Genos.

This thread has been educative and has persuaded me to take a look at the Korg too.
They're quite difficult to find in the secondhand market though.

It seems that Korg Pa4X owners appear to be not so eager to sell their instrument.

Having just bought a brand new Genos, I have to be careful with expenditure, and
would only buy a good used example.
There are so many other gig related things that are indispensable when playing
professionally.

Best Regards.
Abby.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2019, 04:56:03 PM by Pianoman »
 

Offline beykock

Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
« Reply #63 on: June 27, 2019, 04:45:31 PM »
Hi Abby :

I wonder if the PA4X is really the one for you after so many years Yamaha experience and daily professional use.

Apparently you were happy with your Tyros3, right ?
It sounds like the Genos was not exactly what you were looking for.

The Korg PA4X is a complete other beast.
A very professional kb but it is not a plug-and-play arranger.

Nobody can tell you here if the Genos is better than the PA4X or the PA4X better than the Genos. They are different. That is a fact.
Some members have them both and explained the differences well, I guess.

All depends on your personal needs and expectations.
The best way to find out is to have a PA4X ( for approx. 2 weeks ) in your home.

Hopefully your dealer can help you out ?

Bye for now, Babette

 

Offline Pianoman

Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
« Reply #64 on: June 27, 2019, 05:10:26 PM »
Hi Abby :

I wonder if the PA4X is really the one for you

The Korg PA4X is a complete other beast.
A very professional kb but it is not a plug-and-play arranger.

Bye for now, Babette

Hello Babette.

I'm not sure that I'm really a plug and play kind of person.

I am very meticulous about knowing my keyboard and sometimes spend days tweaking
the keyboard, styles, effects, EQ,voices,registrations etc, before I am truly happy with it.

One would have to look at what I do with the keyboard, not the keyboard model.

In a previous thread about microphones, I believe that someone said that " a great
microphone in the hands of a mediocre singer will still produce a mediocre singer " or
something to that effect..

The same principle applies keyboards.
It's not about what keyboard you have,  it's what you do with it that counts.

I have heard music produced on the cheapest PSRs sound better than what is
being produced by players with TOTL keyboards.

Best Regards.

Abby.

Offline beykock

Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
« Reply #65 on: June 27, 2019, 05:25:25 PM »
I fully agree, Abby.
I really wonder what your arranger kb future will be.
Hope you will keep us posted.

Tomorrow it is the big day ... June 29, 2019.
Hopefully all Genos owners will be pleased the day after.

Babette

« Last Edit: June 27, 2019, 05:37:01 PM by beykock »
 

Offline DonM

Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
« Reply #66 on: June 27, 2019, 06:29:16 PM »
I have a feeling Genos  owners are going to be disappointed with the update.  Hope I'm wrong.
As for the difference in operating systems between Korg PA4X and Yamaha... yes they are totally different, but being completely comfortable with both, I much prefer the Korg OS. 
There are tons of styles available for the Korg, including many, many song styles.  Not as many as Yamaha, but I find so many duplicates in the Yamaha style collections that it is very hard to find what you need or want. 
In short I've been able to find every style I need on both brands.

Offline beykock

Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
« Reply #67 on: June 27, 2019, 07:07:11 PM »
Hi DonM :

Since you are working with both OS programs, I am very interested to know why you prefer Korg's OS ?

New to me. Never heard that here before. 🌴
 
Thanks, Babette
 

Offline valimaties

Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
« Reply #68 on: June 27, 2019, 10:36:18 PM »

(1)

Creating your own styles:
The korg pa4x can analyse your midi files to create a new style from it. The results are sometimes really good and sometimes really bad (depending on the midi file). There is a feature on the korg pa4x where you can import a style created in your daw, those results are always really good if you set the labels correctly in your midi file.

The yamaha Genos can create styles onboard by recording every element or by merging elements of styles to create a new version (assembly). This is a very easy proces (much easier then on a korg pa4x), so it's a breeze to create great new styles from elements of the thousends of styles available on a yamaha genos.

I think that for the majority of users the Yamaha genos way is the best way to do it, since it's so easy to do.

(2)
Combining both board will give you everything. I'm glad that i have both keyboards, it's not nessecary of course, but it's a lot of fun :)

1. Definitely, you have to study both Style Creator (Yamaha) and Style Recorder (Korg). Korg's Style Recorder has ALL the features Yamaha's Style Creator has, and has more 90% functionality build-in which Yamaha's SC does not have - transpose, export parts, different measure type for each style part, more than one measure for fills and break, (extra: you can tell which main loads after a fill is played), you can tell if fill starts immediately, or next measure, assembly function, and so on... A lot of functionality there. You can do a lot of job directly on your keyboard!
More than that, one BIG functionality, is that you can save all modified parameters in realtime, when you play a song ;)

2. YES, well said. Those two arrangers are the best together, but really, I want to have my Genos's sound with most of Korg functionality, and I say about Style Creator, Voice Editor and Realtime saving functionality!Those are essential to an arranger!

Regards,
Vali
______________________________________________
Genos 2.0, Allen & Heath SQ5
My youtube channel - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzi9PPrMTjN8_zX9P9kelxg

Vali Maties - Genos
 

Offline DonM

Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
« Reply #69 on: June 28, 2019, 12:11:57 AM »
Hi DonM :

Since you are working with both OS programs, I am very interested to know why you prefer Korg's OS ?

New to me. Never heard that here before. 🌴
 
Thanks, Babette

Well you probably wouldn't expect to hear it here.  :)
The Songbook function is fantastic.  The Vocal Harmonizer and processor is the best in any arranger.  It rivals stand-along external units.
You can make edits, changes at any time, even while playing.
You can replace or reorder factory and user styles.  You can edit any style and save it, and then have your choice of the edited style or the original.
The Keyboard Sets (OTS) are much more versatile.
There are WAY more programmable sliders, buttons, etc. 
It takes a fairly inexpensive 5-switch foot controller, to which you can assign almost any functions.
It is quick and easy to pull up text, or other files, again, even while playing if needed.
There are a few things I prefer on the Yamaha, such as the easier access to USB styles, but not many.
It has a touch-strip in addition to the joystick.
It has a chord sequencer that works great and you can associate any sequences to a Songbook entry if you wish.
I could go on and on, but would still leave out many features.
Probably said too much already.  There is no right or wrong choice, just great options on both brands.