Author Topic: How far can you make a MODX work like an arranger?  (Read 5650 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline DerekA

How far can you make a MODX work like an arranger?
« on: May 30, 2019, 03:35:43 PM »
So I know there are "arrangers" and there are "synthesizers". At a very high level, arrangers have style engines, while synths like the MODX have arpeggios.

Could any of you who own a MODX give some insight on how far it's possible to use the arpeggios on MODX to make it work a bit like an arranger? I know an exact equivalent is not possible, but what is possible?

Reason for asking : I am tempted by the sound of the MODX but fear I would really miss the immediacy of using the style engine to play a full arrangement. If it's possible to do something simple that could be enough for me. At the moment I can't really justify the price of a Genos.
Genos
 

Offline Joe H

Re: How far can you make a MODX work like an arranger?
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2019, 04:39:53 PM »
Derek,

There are a few of us who own Yamaha synths and an arranger.  I brought this topic up on the Yamaha Synth Forum, and was insulted just for asking the question.

I own a Motif Rack XS.  I've been working on integrating the Motif with the arranger for sometime now.  It's amazing how well the Motif and arranger work together. It's become an extension (expansion) of my S970. I will be writing a tutorial on: Integrating the Motif with a Yamaha Arranger... how to do this and just what we can do. Here is a sample of the things we can do:

1. Create dummy packs in YEM for both User Voices and Performances on the synth (you can select these then directly from your arranger like pack Voices)

2. Play the synth User Voices and Performances as R1 on your arranger and save in OTS (you will need to create a special MIDI configuration on your arranger)

3. Play the synth arps using the arranger Voices (this is just delightful)

4. Play the arranger arps (if you have a model with arps) using the synth Voices (the arranger arps are ported over from the Motif in the first place so they work very well)

5. If you patch the synth audio out directly into the Audio Aux In on your arranger, the synth sounds will integrate perfectly with the arranger sounds and you can then record audio with the USB audio recorder and the synth Voices will be recorded along with the arranger sounds.

I will have an advanced section for 'Power Users' if they have an external MIDI programmable controller.  There are some fantastic things we can do to enhance the real-time playing of Motif arps like varying the Arp Gate Time, Attack and Release simultaneously with a foot pedal (and this may be is possible with the MODX as well). But you will need to know how to program sysex strings to control the arp parameters. I have reproduced some of the panel controls (missing on the Motif sound module) for the Motif keyboard like the 5 - 'F' (function buttons) on my Peavey hardware controller. (I can switch the 5 arp variations real-time like you can do on the Motif keyboard)

My life is very busy right now, so I can't say when I will get this project done, but I hope by the end of this year. I want to be very thorough about it and include screen shots of the setups I have made.

Regards,
Joe H
« Last Edit: May 30, 2019, 04:51:58 PM by Joe H »
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads in registrations. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline Graham UK

Re: How far can you make a MODX work like an arranger?
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2019, 04:40:07 PM »
DerekA. Good question...I would also be be interested to read reply's.

Joe H replied as I was replying, thank you Joe.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2019, 04:42:02 PM by Graham UK »
T5 76 + NP30
 

Offline DerekA

Re: How far can you make a MODX work like an arranger?
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2019, 04:54:53 PM »
Thanks for the reply Joe, I'd like to think that on this forum we are able to ask any questions and not get insulted!

However - maybe I wasn't quite clear enough, I'm toying with having a MODX instead of an arranger because I love the MODX sounds - but can't afford both. I worry that I would miss being able to sit and just play something with a bit of an accompaniment. But if MODX can - when I want to - provide a basic accompaniment pattern then that could be fine.

Genos
 

Offline Del B

Re: How far can you make a MODX work like an arranger?
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2019, 06:31:12 PM »
I am debating to purchasing a MODX7 as a second board, I have recently purchased a keyboard stand to cater for a second board ready when the decision has been made by my wallet.  My yamaha LS7 keyboard stand is now redundant, (must put it up for sale)
 

Offline pjd

Re: How far can you make a MODX work like an arranger?
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2019, 06:56:03 PM »
Hi Derek --

Your question has been on my to-do list for some time. Unfortunately, my studio is pretty much shut down and packed away. (We're selling the house.)

I think the MODX may be more capable of emulating an arranger than the earlier XS/XF Motif/MOX. The trick is exploiting the MODX Scenes and Scene buttons. The Arpeggio type is one of the parameters in a Scene. Thus, one should be able to associate arpeggios with a Scene and then select the Scene in real time while playing.

This would take a fair bit of work because one would need to specify an argeggio type for each of the Parts in the Performance. PSR Styles hide all of that detail. So, as an experiment, I would create a few parts -- drum, bass, keys, solo -- and assign an arpeggio to drum, bass and keys in each scene. Maybe have four scenes for MAIN and four scenes for FILL IN.

There isn't AUTO FILL, so you would need to switch into and out of the FILL IN Scenes.

If I ever get set up again, I will try this. Unfortunately, the time frame is super murky...

Hope this helps -- pj

P.S. Perhaps the Motif Performances for MODX would give someone a running start. Creating style-like Scenes from scratch would be a lot of work.

 

Offline DerekA

Re: How far can you make a MODX work like an arranger?
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2019, 08:16:24 PM »
Thanks pj, that is helpful and is food for thought.
Genos
 

Offline Joe H

Re: How far can you make a MODX work like an arranger?
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2019, 08:34:09 PM »
Derek,

I think you missed my point and  I interpreted you original post as you were considering buying the MODX in addition to having your Tyros.  Sorry for the mistake.  But I don't see how you can interpret my comments as insulting.

As pj has stated, and anyone who has owned a Motif knows that trying to emulate a style on  a Motif/MOX or Montage/MODX is a lot of work.

Integrating an arranger and a synth is having the best of both worlds because we can make use of the sounds and arps in the synth while playing along with the arranger styles.

I don't see what is so insulting about that.

Regards,
Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads in registrations. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline beykock

Re: How far can you make a MODX work like an arranger?
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2019, 08:43:53 PM »
And what about the PSRS975 ?
Built in stys and arps, right ?

Babette
« Last Edit: May 30, 2019, 08:46:12 PM by beykock »
 

Offline mikf

Re: How far can you make a MODX work like an arranger?
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2019, 09:11:25 PM »
Joe
I think you misread Derekís post (again🌝🌝). He was not saying that he was insulted by your response, I believe he is referring to you saying someone had insulted you for just asking a question and agreeing with you that was wrong.
Derek - The bottom line on is that as Joe stated styles are complicated things  - even very simple styles, and the typical synth is not set up to make them easily.  In fact it is the provision of styles that defines an arranger.
 As Joe says, the only practical way to get both the top sound engine and styles is to link the two, but that doesnít seem to be the way you want to go.
Mike

Offline Joe H

Re: How far can you make a MODX work like an arranger?
« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2019, 09:44:43 PM »
Thank you Mike for the clarification!

 :)    :)    :)

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads in registrations. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline Joe H

Re: How far can you make a MODX work like an arranger?
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2019, 09:50:44 PM »
And what about the PSRS975 ?
Built in stys and arps, right ?

Babette

Yes, as I stated above, the PSR arps are from the Motif.  What I have found is that we have to adjust the Arp Gate Time, Arp Velocity and Unit Multiply for the individual arps playing with specific Voices to get the maximum performance out of them.

We can also record the PSR arps and turn the patterns into Multi Pads or style Parts to create new styles.

 ;)

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads in registrations. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline SeaGtGruff

Re: How far can you make a MODX work like an arranger?
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2019, 09:57:48 PM »
Sadly, the Yamaha Synth Forum is not exactly known for being a friendly place, although it can be a source of very good information. The moderator there is a mister bad (if you get my drift) who really knows his stuff, but either he tends to come across as-- or else actually is-- a rather short-tempered and dismissive person. I once posted a question there, and he simply deleted my post without giving any explanation as to why! I can guess why he thought it was "objectionable," because I was asking about whether it was okay to give someone the complimentary license for Cubase AI that I got with my MX49BK, since I already have a license for Cubase Elements, and I guess either he thought my question was too dumb, or else Yamaha frowns on "gifting" a complimentary license to someone who didn't purchase the product that the complimentary license was bundled with. Either way, it would have been nice to at least be sent a private message as to what was so objectionable about my post that he felt the need to delete it.
Michael Rideout
Current keyboards: Yamaha YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443, PSR-EW400, MX49 BK
Current controllers: M-Audio Axiom 61-II
Previous keyboards: Farfisa Matador 611; Casio CTK-710
 

Offline Toril S

Re: How far can you make a MODX work like an arranger?
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2019, 10:11:31 PM »
I stick to the PSR Tutorial, the layout is the best for my needs, the people here are super friendly and helpful, and I am not so interested in synths. Styles are the backbone of my music.
Toril S

Genos, Tyros 5, PSR S975, PSR 2100
and PSR-47.
Former keyboards: PSR-S970.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLVwWdb36Yd3LMBjAnm6pTQ?view_as=subscriber



Toril's PSR Performer Page
 

Offline pjd

Re: How far can you make a MODX work like an arranger?
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2019, 10:27:09 PM »
Folks, just to be clear, Derek is wondering how far the MODX synth can be pushed into arranger duties. This is a rather specific question and doesn't cast shade on styles or arrangers.

Yep, there are some sites with people who will cast shade on arrangers -- whether they have played one seriously or not.  :o Thankfully, PSR Tutorial Forum is not one of those places, nor does it include any of the folks on this thread.  :)

I've met the USA Yamaha synth reps including those who post on the Yamaha Synth Web site. They are all decent folk with good intentions. Posting thoughts and advice on the Web (or sending same via e-mail) always runs the risk of misinterpretation or rubbing someone the wrong way. Lord knows how many people I've probably hacked off in my day.  ;)

Derek, I forgot to mention that the MODX added a Rhythm Pattern button which makes it easier to add and set up a Drum Part (Reference Manual, page 184 and Owner's Manual page 43).

BTW, depending upon musical genre, there is a fair bit of commonality between MODX and PSR/Genos voices. I created a MODX Live Set containing the voices that I typically use with Genos/PSR styles.

All the best -- pj

http://sandsoftwaresound.net/genos-sound-alike-voices-on-modx/
« Last Edit: May 30, 2019, 10:29:19 PM by pjd »
 

Offline Roland

Re: How far can you make a MODX work like an arranger?
« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2019, 12:03:54 AM »
Hello Derek,

Another way to look at this: Many of the arranger styles are aimed at specific songs (aside of genre). That is one reason why they are so easy to use when playing your favourite well-known songs; everything is well prepared and just a button away. That's a different story on a synth using performances or/and arps. For that great song you like so much, you have to work quite a bit to put something together that comes close to an arranger style.

It's a different beast however if you want to use the synth together with other band members. Here the synth really shines as it complements the band with individual instruments or rhythm patterns. Another area where I'd prefer a MODX or Montage/Motif over an arranger is when writing my own songs. In this situation, I have to play everything myself anyways (and record to a DAW).

And when I just fiddle around to get new ideas or to get inspired, I too prefer a synth (or at times even just a plain piano voice.) But again, that is because I write my own stuff. Other folks will prefer an arranger to get "inspired" as in "ah, I remember this song - always liked it..." sort of thing.

So in other words: It depends maybe a bit on what you would like to do. If it is the playing of existing songs without having to program hours on end for each song - I suggest to look into a less costly arranger, like one of the PSR models. If you want to write your own songs and do your own music recordings - then in my view a synth is a great way to go.

As for the guys at the synth and motifator forums: They have always been very helpful and I never had anyone giving me a hard time. You might find that they may not have the same patience when it comes to things such as not reading the manual. But that I can understand :-)  So don't be afraid to ask away on the synth side of things.

Cheers, Roland
 

Offline Bill

Re: How far can you make a MODX work like an arranger?
« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2019, 10:58:07 AM »
Hi Dereck

Maybe another option for you (if you go down the MODX only route)  is to use BIAB.     https://www.pgmusic.com/bbwin.49pak.htm        You will then retain a lot of the benefits of styles.

Regards
Bill
« Last Edit: May 31, 2019, 11:21:55 AM by Bill »
England

Current KB:  YAMAHA GENOS
 

Offline beykock

Re: How far can you make a MODX work like an arranger?
« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2019, 11:11:06 AM »
A synth is absolutely not an arranger keyboard as we all know.

If one is used to work with styles, multipads, voices etc., I would not recommend to buy a synth ( for home playing, I mean ) instead of an arranger.

It is a different world.

Babette
« Last Edit: May 31, 2019, 11:18:15 AM by beykock »
 

Offline DerekA

Re: How far can you make a MODX work like an arranger?
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2019, 01:50:58 PM »
Maybe it's not quite so easy after all.

I will just have to keep saving up for a Genos :)

Thanks to everyone.

(And sorry for the confusion Joe, Mike was right about what I meant)
Genos
 

Offline Toril S

Re: How far can you make a MODX work like an arranger?
« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2019, 05:12:38 PM »
What about the DGX? Would that be an option? It is a piano, but has styles too.
Toril S

Genos, Tyros 5, PSR S975, PSR 2100
and PSR-47.
Former keyboards: PSR-S970.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLVwWdb36Yd3LMBjAnm6pTQ?view_as=subscriber



Toril's PSR Performer Page
 

Offline mikf

Re: How far can you make a MODX work like an arranger?
« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2019, 06:07:38 PM »
I think Derek's whole point was to have access to the wonderful sounds and synth functions of the MODX, along with some styles, so DGXt is not an option. I think we have covered all the bases, and Derek's conclusion is the correct one.
Mike

Offline beykock

Re: How far can you make a MODX work like an arranger?
« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2019, 10:08:15 PM »
Hi Derek,

A very wise decision to go for an arranger keyboard.👍

If a Genos is too expensive, you might go for a perfect, second hand Tyros 4 or Tyros 5.
Take your time to find it.

Several members ( including me ) did the same and confirmed here they are very pleased and happy. So am I.

Take care, Babette
« Last Edit: May 31, 2019, 10:12:03 PM by beykock »
 

Offline mikf

Re: How far can you make a MODX work like an arranger?
« Reply #22 on: May 31, 2019, 10:15:50 PM »
Derek already has a T5, thatís where this thread started!
 

Offline beykock

Re: How far can you make a MODX work like an arranger?
« Reply #23 on: May 31, 2019, 10:27:14 PM »
OK, sorry missed that information.😱

The Genos ( 1.4 update ! )  might be the best choice for Derek, I guess.😉

Babette



 

Offline DerekA

Re: How far can you make a MODX work like an arranger?
« Reply #24 on: November 05, 2019, 08:21:04 PM »
Thanks for your thoughts Mark. I stuck with the T5 and am still trying to work up the courage to trade to a Genos :)
Genos