Author Topic: restrictions of only 2 part styles  (Read 613 times)

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Offline ekurburski

restrictions of only 2 part styles
« on: April 12, 2019, 07:11:48 PM »
Wondering about how you all feel about only having part a and part b styles to work with.  What work around's do you use when you want more variety?
PSR740, PSR3000, tx7, mt32, mirage, ProTiools 10,11 Sonar,  Reaper, BIAB2019
 

Offline SeaGtGruff

Re: restrictions of only 2 part styles
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2019, 07:59:12 PM »
As a general rule I don’t usually play with styles, so the 2-variation limit doesn’t impact me too much.

But you can save a registration with a style number, choice of variation A or B, and choice of intro or main, so that gives you a way to play a song where you need more than 2 variations— that is, recall a registration that switches to a different style when you’re ready to use a different pair of variations.

To be honest, I get the impression that the primary reason for having two or more variations in a style is so the style can be used with a greater number of songs. Of course, this is especially true as far as multiple intros and endings, and not necessarily so much the main loops and fills, since it’s not at all uncommon for a song to switch to a different rhythm partway through, then switch back.

But I get the impression that most players who make heavy use of styles would prefer to use a style that’s specifically written for a given song, rather than using a more generic style that’s designed to be usable for a wider variety of songs.

So I think that by creating or collecting your own library of song-specific styles, you might not need to use more than 2 variations for a given song, and if you do then you could put each pair of variations in a separate style file and use registrations to switch between multiple styles while playing.

In my opinion, the more restrictive limitation is that there are only 4 registrations in a bank, and only 8 banks. The ability to load another User file that contains a different set of registrations is helpful, but it takes time to load a User file, so you need to have everything planned out carefully to avoid having to load a new User file except at a point where you can take a short break in your set. And switching to a new bank takes a few more button pushes than recalling a registration in the current bank, so you also need to organize your registrations and banks wisely.
Michael Rideout
Current keyboards: Yamaha YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443, PSR-EW400, MX49 BK
Current controllers: M-Audio Axiom 61-II
Previous keyboards: Farfisa Matador 611; Casio CTK-710
 

Offline andyg

Re: restrictions of only 2 part styles
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2019, 09:43:48 PM »
The basic idea of having A and B (or more) variations is to give you variation between the verse and chorus of a song. At least it was back when I was helping to design them! :)

As has been said, you do have 4 registration memories to use and some of these could indeed use a different style (at the same tempo, of course!). If you want a lot of variation in a song with lots of sound changes then set things up carefully. Don't just accept what Yamaha give you. So Reg 1 will have a Main Voice, but also a Dual Voice and maybe a Harmony setting. All carefully balanced, of course. So that's potentially four different sounds from that one button, and the A/B variation giving you two choices of style.

Then do that for Reg 2,3 and 4 and see how much you make make those four buttons do!Up to sixteen sounds and maybe eight rhythm changes. No real restrictions, just some preparation!

I get my students to really push their keyboards at Grades 1 and 2, as I've just described. They work hard, the keyboard works hard. Grade 3 and up needs something better than a PSR-E. Volume pedal is needed and footswitch control of registration changes is essential. So PSR3000 or PSR-S7xx or 9xx.

But the little E 433 and later are very capable keyboards. Use those registrations! They're the single most powerful feature on the keyboard.

And I have to disagree slightly with SeaGtGruff. Whilst song specific styles are indeed very useful, 90% of my work and that of my students is done using generic styles. Sometimes revoiced and rebalanced, sure. And often using several styles in the one tune (making sure that revoicing and rebalancing ensures that the bass player and drummer don't change instruments - unless deliberately required!).
« Last Edit: April 13, 2019, 09:48:14 PM by andyg »
It's not what you play, it's not how you play. It's the fact that you're playing that counts.

www.andrew-gilbert.com
 

Offline SeaGtGruff

Re: restrictions of only 2 part styles
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2019, 11:27:11 PM »
But the little E 433 and later are very capable keyboards.

Yes, the earlier models— the PSR-E403, E413, and E423— had only 2 registration buttons, not 4. They also had no USB TO DEVICE port for plugging in a USB flash drive. Anyone interested in picking up an older used model because they don’t have the budget for a new model would be well-advised to go for a PSR-E433 or later model for those reasons.

Quote
And I have to disagree slightly with SeaGtGruff. Whilst song specific styles are indeed very useful, 90% of my work and that of my students is done using generic styles.

I wasn’t trying to suggest that generic styles are less useful than song-specific styles; in fact, I think the fact that they are generic makes them inherently more useful since they can potentially be used to play a greater number of songs than song-specific styles can. What I said was

I get the impression that most players who make heavy use of styles would prefer to use a style that’s specifically written for a given song,

Perhaps I’ve gotten the wrong impression about that, but my impression is based on the number of posts I see from people asking whether anyone has a style they can share for a specific song. They’re not asking for suggestions about which of the preset styles on their particular model might work well for playing the song in question. Maybe this is actually a good example of “the vocal minority” versus “the silent majority”! :)
Michael Rideout
Current keyboards: Yamaha YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443, PSR-EW400, MX49 BK
Current controllers: M-Audio Axiom 61-II
Previous keyboards: Farfisa Matador 611; Casio CTK-710
 

Offline vbdx66

Re: restrictions of only 2 part styles
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2019, 11:47:02 PM »
Hi Michael,

Personally, I like 4-Variation styles better than 2-Variation styles because it adds more variety to an arrangement and it gives you the possibility to build up the song, since usually the 4 variations will go from very simple to more complex. What I liked very much in the Casio CT-X3000 during the few weeks I had it at home was the fact that the styles had 4 variations and I am missing those more than often on my DGX650 and Casio CT-X800. And all professional arrangers (Genos, Korg PA4X, Ketron Audya...) have 4-variation styles.

Usually, when I am learning a song, I try to use generic styles and I sometimes ask for a generic style suggestion rather than for a song-specific style. First of all, onboard, generic styles are usually better because they were made especially for the keyboard they’re included in, and thus they are making the best usage of this particular keyboard voices and effects. Secondly, what usually makes a style song-specific is the intro and the ending, which contain song-specific melodic elements. So a possibility is to play one’s own intro and ending and use the generic style only for the fills and variations.

I agree with you about the PSRE433. It is a very fine keyboard. I had it twice and I should have kept it, I might buy it a third time if I chance to find one in good shape at a reasonable price. It has some pretty modern features and one of the best keybeds found on an entry-level arranger keyboard.

Regards,

Vinciane

Past keyboards: PSR E313, PSR E413, PSR E433, PSR S550, DGX 640, upright piano.
Now: DGX 650, Casio CT-X800.
 

Offline mikf

Re: restrictions of only 2 part styles
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2019, 12:57:40 AM »
Style and voice variations can be helpful in making the performance of a song more interesting. But I think it is a mistake to put too much emphasis on this, or to overuse it, thinking that it by itself will lift a song. Too often I hear several verses and chorus of a song played flat and identically on arrangers while shifting voices and style parts madly in the belief this by itself will make it interesting.
The owners of arrangers often get enthusiastic about using these technical gimmicks, but I believe most listeners are much more impressed when the song itself is played in an interesting way - through phrasing, or rhythmic, melodic and harmonic interpretation, and the technology is used sparingly. It should support a good performance rather than be front and center.
Mike

Offline SciNote

Re: restrictions of only 2 part styles
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2019, 06:52:47 AM »
^^^
I have to agree.  I have the PSR-E433, and I mainly only use styles for the drums, and I play as much background as I can directly with my left hand.  With my home set-up, I also have a set of bass pedals and a volume pedal.  Yes, the E-433 does not have a volume pedal input, but at home, I run it through a mixer and amp, and I hook the volume pedal in line with that equipment.

Since I mainly use the styles for drums, the fact that there are only two variations is not that limiting to me.  The only thing I would really like is to be able to do a fill-in without having to change variation.  On the E433 (as well as the other E-series up to and including the E463), the only way to do a fill-in is to hit the variation button, which, by definition, will switch the A/B variation.  My work-around is to hit the button twice to get a fill but then land back on the original variation, but Yamaha really should add a direct fill button in future updates.

The other way I use my keyboard is for multi-track recording, usually getting the "meat and potatoes" of the song recorded on-board using the E433's 6-track sequencer, and then sending the whole thing to Audacity DAW as an audio file and adding additional tracks as necessary directly onto Audacity.  And again, here, the keyboards style limitations do not really limit what I want to do, as I can easily manage variations while recording different sections of a song.  If there are any major style or tempo changes, I just record those sections as a separate song on the E433, then send the separate songs to Audacity, and then combine them as needed using the Audacity software.

In a couple cases, I wanted a 5/4 rock beat, which of course, does not exist on these keyboards.  The is the Dave Brubeck type of jazz 5/4 style available, but that is not what I wanted.  So, using the multi-track recording, I used a basic 8-beat rock beat as a basis of the drum pattern I wanted, and then, using a separate sequencer track, I manually played a cymbal every 5th beat using a drum-kit voice to "synthesize" a 5/4 rock beat.

I'll post an example of this later -- right now, I'm having trouble accessing the Box website that has my recordings.
Bob
Yamaha PSR-E433
Yamaha PSR-520
 

Offline Graham UK

Re: restrictions of only 2 part styles
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2019, 07:39:48 AM »
Suggestion. Copy Var 1 & 2 to Var 3 & 4 now mute some style parts of Var 1 & 2 making these first 2 more basic, you now have 4 Variations to build up to.
You can also add MultiPads to give other Variations.
T2 + NP30
 

Offline vbdx66

Re: restrictions of only 2 part styles
« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2019, 08:34:35 AM »
Hi Bob,

A 5/4 Rock rhythm on the E433 - now I am really curious to hear that!  :)

Regards,

Vinciane
Past keyboards: PSR E313, PSR E413, PSR E433, PSR S550, DGX 640, upright piano.
Now: DGX 650, Casio CT-X800.
 

Offline SciNote

Re: restrictions of only 2 part styles
« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2019, 12:46:50 PM »
Okay, here it is...

https://app.box.com/s/u26hp9hpys8spap5naslx4ebsqk0ldvy

I originally recorded this a few years ago.  It is a copyrighted original called "Phase Shift".  It is in three parts.  The second part starts at about 00:40, and while it is 5/4, it does not have an actual style playing.  I am just manually playing a cymbal sound at the beginning of each measure.  It is at the third part, which starts at about 01:23, where I use the basic 8-beat style and play the cymbal sound every 5 beats which, along with the actual music, creates the 5/4 pattern.
Bob
Yamaha PSR-E433
Yamaha PSR-520