Author Topic: Diatonic bass lines  (Read 1286 times)

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Offline Luluc

Diatonic bass lines
« on: March 16, 2019, 09:12:44 PM »
Hi all,

How do play diatonic bass lines on the Genos , as typical example the song A whiter shade of pale ?

Here is the chord sequence of the beginning of the song :

C    C/B  -  Am    Am/G  -  F  F/E  -  Dm  Dm/C -

What fingering mode do you use ?
How you realize your chords at the left hand ?

NB : What I expect, for example, is really C/B,  a C chord and the B key as bass note, and I don't expect a Em/B as we can see sometimes on Internet sites. Also, Am/G is NOT a Am7 chord.
 

Offline mikf

Re: Diatonic bass lines
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2019, 09:18:09 PM »
Set fingering mode to fingered on bass, if you are using a split keyboard, or AI full keyboard if you are not using a split, hen play the inversion you want and the arranger will play the correct bass.
Mike

Online Dromeus

Re: Diatonic bass lines
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2019, 10:20:10 PM »
Relating to some other discussion in this forum about competition... I sincerly believe that AI Fingered is the important innovation that set Yamaha arrangers ahead of the competition for many years and still today. Cheers to Reinhold Poehnl who made this happen.

So I strongly recommend to use this fingering mode all the time - it's simply the best  ;). For Whiter Shade just try this chord progression:

c-e  -  c-b  -  a-c   -  g-a  -  f-a  -  e-f  -  d-f  - c-d

Could it be easier? Don't worry about the major seven recognized for some chords (e.g. CM7/B), it just sounds right (well, this is to be expected).

Have fun
Michael
Regards, Michael
 

Offline Toril S

Re: Diatonic bass lines
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2019, 11:16:51 PM »
Pardon my ignorance, but what is diatonic?
Toril S

Tyros 5, PSR S975, PSR 2100 and PSR-47.
Former keyboards: PSR-S970.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLVwWdb36Yd3LMBjAnm6pTQ?view_as=subscriber



Toril's PSR Performer Page
 

Online Dromeus

Regards, Michael
 

Offline Toril S

Re: Diatonic bass lines
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2019, 11:49:31 PM »
Thanks😀
Toril S

Tyros 5, PSR S975, PSR 2100 and PSR-47.
Former keyboards: PSR-S970.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLVwWdb36Yd3LMBjAnm6pTQ?view_as=subscriber



Toril's PSR Performer Page
 

Offline Luluc

Re: Diatonic bass lines
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2019, 09:39:04 AM »
The AI Fingered mode is the easiest one, allowing to play only two notes.

I see two drawbacks :
1 - With the keys c b , the C chord is transformed in CM7, the bass is correct. As far I understand, all the chording parts (chord1, chord2, maybe the pad) will play a CM7 chord, but we have requested a C chord.
The same for Am/G : chord displayed Am7/G.

2 - In this mode, it is impossible to play a Left Voice, because we get too dissonant tones.

In Fingered mode, same thing as abocve for the chord C/B and C/A.

 

Online Dromeus

Re: Diatonic bass lines
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2019, 12:10:36 PM »
AI Fingered is easy and powerful at the same time, which means more fun when playing.

If the bass note adds fourth note to a triad, it adds to the harmony of the chord. I think of C/B as equivalent to Cmaj7/B. As a pianist, given the C/B I'd play a B in the left hand and a Cmaj7 voicing with my right hand. It just sounds better. For the Whiter Shade progression I'd do the same for Am/G, playing an Am7 voicing with my right hand. So I think the AI fingering pointed out above does justice to A Whiter Shade Of Pale.

If you face a song it really makes a difference in terms of sound to use an Am and not an Am7 vocing in the right hand for a Am/G chord, you may force that using the AI fingering g-g#-a-c-e.

It is true that some of the AI fingering is not intended for use with a LEFT voice. Neverthless you may use LEFT with AI Fingered for a more simple approach to bass lines (what is programmed in the styles BASS part). Personally in most cases I prefer to control the bass lines myself over playing a LEFT voice, because it gives me the freedom to do what I like to achive musically.

Note that there are also three special fingerings for the 6/9, 7/9 and 7/13 chords which are well suited with a LEFT voice. It allows you use a rootless voicing, the correct bass note will be played by the style. For a C major chord:

C6/9: e-a-d
C7/9: e-bb-d
C7/13: bb-e-a



Regards, Michael
 

Offline EileenL

Re: Diatonic bass lines
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2019, 01:08:11 PM »
Do remember though that the Bass note should always be played below the chord note. That is C/E is played with the C note and then the E note is played below so really it is E C.

Offline jwyvern

Re: Diatonic bass lines
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2019, 01:25:02 PM »
Quoting Dromeus,
"Note that there are also three special fingerings for the 6/9, 7/9 and 7/13 chords which are well suited with a LEFT voice. It allows you use a rootless voicing, the correct bass note will be played by the style. For a C major chord:

C6/9: e-a-d
C7/9: e-bb-d
C7/13: bb-e-a"

Hi Dromeus, you are probably aware anyway, but could add

Cm7/9  eflat-bflat-d

The minor is particularly interesting since it gives a way to a II-V  type (or 13!) chord progression by moving just 1 finger.
Eg. move the Bb to A and you progress to F13, Being more open chords they sound fine with left voices for the right type of music.

John
« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 01:31:26 PM by jwyvern »
 

Online Dromeus

Re: Diatonic bass lines
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2019, 02:18:00 PM »
Thx, John, you're absolutely right, I should have mentiened this.
Regards, Michael
 

Offline Luluc

Re: Diatonic bass lines
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2019, 05:06:11 PM »
Thanks all, I see we hare here facing ,the li, mits of the arranger mainly about the diatonic bass lines.

Dromeus, I have to disagree that a C/B is NOT a CMAJ7/B, mainly in a bass line sequence.

See two examples attached :
- first one is A whiter shade of pale : In the first bar of the song, the C chord is hold and below the bass plays the C key, and then in the same bar, the B key. In a band, don't tell the guitarist to play a CM7. It would be a misinterpretation.
- the second example is It's a heartache : we have a G chord played during 2 bars, and below the bass plays the following keys G, F, E, D. So, don't tell your guitarist to play the chords G, G7, Em7,G. I think you understand what I mean.

OK for the tips of special fingering X6/9, X7/9, X7/13
 

Offline mikf

Re: Diatonic bass lines
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2019, 05:54:45 PM »
Luluc
You are splitting hairs. This is music and what matters is how it sounds, and not technical correctness. And even technical correctness is arguable. If I add a B to a C chord then I am creating a CM7. There would actually be nothing wrong with the sound of a guitar guitarist playing a CM7, although he doesn’t have to because the B has already been added by the bass player.
Mike

Offline pfeuh

Re: Diatonic bass lines
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2019, 05:57:27 PM »
Hello,

Here is a short easy notation document I wrote some months ago for a couple of friends.

https://app.box.com/s/ydhyg9dfbnusvcwhh1m601ts0enyt5td

You have to use Fingered on bass, then following the document's chords given from bass to treble. Here is the matching:

do -> C
re -> D
mi -> E
fa -> F
sol -> G
la -> A
si -> B

Regards,

Pfeuh




« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 05:58:56 PM by pfeuh »
Genos - Crumar Mojo - Memotron - Behringer model D - Korg MS20 - FR-1X - Reface CP
 

Online Dromeus

Re: Diatonic bass lines
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2019, 06:52:36 PM »
Luluc, I tend do disagree here.

Your score of the first four bars of Whiter Shade is a typical PGV (piano, guitar, vocals) type of score. It is a simple (easy) arrangement by intent. The guitar chord diagrams are just the easiest way to play the chord that will fit the harmonisation as denoted by the arranger's personal view.

In a real band you would play much different parts, of course. You may want to watch Geoff Whitehorn in this video beginning at 2:23:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiMBnvCB2rQ

Even if his guitar is rather soft in the mix, you can clearly see that he does not play C major for the first two bars. Instead he changes according to the harmony, and I think the following band arrangement does a pretty good job denoting the guitar part:

https://musescore.com/user/5922061/scores/2273291

You may gain even more insight listening to Gary Brooker as he performs Whiter Shade at the Jools Holland show:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZ-eQvpHK4U

You find that at the beginning he plays a Em/B instead of C/B, later during the sax solo he plays a G/B. Of course, these are valid reharmonisations and they work perfectly. In music there is room for variations and this adds to its fascination.

So I think there is nothing wrong here to use the AI Fingered chords as outlined above. You would not expect that the guitar part generated by the OrganBallad style would match Geoffs playing, would you? After all it's a software "playing" using some strict rules. But it does a good job and the result fits neatly to the spirit of the song.

All the best, Michael
Regards, Michael
 

Offline panos

Re: Diatonic bass lines
« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2019, 08:11:34 PM »
Too much theory here.
It is kind of hard to follow.  ???
The sheets above have the exact notes for 2 or 3 instruments.
In a style I can have 6 instruments playing.
Nobody tells me what the other 3 instruments should play exactly.
Neither how each part of a style is generatted technically to play which sequence of notes for each chord but I expect them not all to play the same notes at the same time.
I like Ai fingered mode,makes my life easier!  :D

Anyway...
Just for the record I wanted to add the translations below because I speak Greek ;D:

Diatonic the exact translation is "between tones" and Chromatic means "with colours".
The original meaning of a "tone" was the sound produced by a chord.(a guitar's chord)

Offline gskip

Re: Diatonic bass lines
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2019, 04:25:37 PM »
Hi,
This has been an interesting discussion to follow and I don't mean to hi-jack it, but it reminds me of the difficulties I had in the past changing from a piano theory/technique mindset to an arranger way of playing.
Unless I'm playing on a Full keyboard settings (which is rare) I play chords in the left hand "bunched up" and they work for the arranger. As you know if we tried that on a piano it wouldn't usually sound right.
So unless it is a simple piece with easy chords, I have to figure it out to work on the arranger, which is usually fun but sometimes time-consuming.
There are some other issues with keyboard theory which apply only to arrangers. This forum and a few others have been helpful to me in learning the best ways to solve these problems.
However, I find that I have to search through various sub- forums to find a subject relating to arranger-theory.
It would be nice if there was a separate forum for these subjects; such as "How do I play such and such a chord on the arranger?" and other related questions.
Thanks
Skip