Author Topic: Drums, Drums, Drums.  (Read 26162 times)

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Offline Pianoman

Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #50 on: March 24, 2019, 10:14:42 PM »
.... Ok, everyone can have his/her opinion. I respect.

It's the first time I read a thread in this forum, for which I totally disagree with the core initial idea.

As Soryt previously, I find the new REVO drums FAR FAR better than Tyros drums. For me, it's THE major improvement from Tyros 5.

My Music teacher is 75 years old, also a "gigman" for 50 years, and "first price for piano clarinet and saxophone of Paris Music Conservatory". He has a Tyros 5, uses it for his gigs.
I lent him my Genos during 1 week.

The first thing he told me : "the drums are far better".

For a non professional like me, who is not able to play naturally 300 good notes per minute, having such styles with heavy drums and heavy bass is great and goes towards modern music styles.


Regards
Soundphase.


Hello Soundphase.

Like I wrote in my original post and another recent post, it's all a matter of taste and opinion.
I'm not trying to change anybody else's opinion.

 I'm just stating that I am not  impressed by the Revo! drums.

I feel that they are not as tight, dynamic and crisp as the drums in the Tyros and PSR
series.

The pursuit of authenticity in a sound or voice does not always ensure the best
results, especially in the real world out there.

I have a Kawai MP11 stage piano that I adore, whose sound is sampled from Kawai's top of
the line concert grand.
I also love the action and mechanism of the keys, which are the exact mechanism found
on a concert grand. The feel when playing it is sublime.

I recently tried out a Roland RD 2000 and am very impressed.
Roland samples and then models their piano sound until it sounds as it should in the real
world. I will be buying one shortly.

I have recorded the intros of the ScatLegend styles of both the Genos and the Tyros 5.
I prefer the drum sound of the T5, which I find is crisper, tighter and more dynamic.

Others will prefer the Genos drums, and there is nothing wrong with that.
It's all a matter of what stimulates one's senses better.

As for the 'gigman' Music teacher, as you wrote, sound is subject to many things, and really
depends on where you play, what you play, and whom you play for.

And as for me, I am now exclusively using Tyros, PSR, and 3rd party styles on my Genos.

Thanks to the kindness of many Tutorial and forum members, I have found many useful
styles in the Styles Collection section.

And a great styles selection from our good friend Gary Diamond, a.k.a
travlin-easy.

Here are the short demos, which are better heard on a pair of good headphones,
in order to differentiate the sound better.

Best Regards.
Abby.


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« Last Edit: March 24, 2019, 10:43:22 PM by Pianoman »
 

Offline Toril S

Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #51 on: March 24, 2019, 10:45:55 PM »
I have to agree with you Abby. Tyros drums sound better, to MY ears!
Toril S

Genos, Tyros 5, PSR S975, PSR 2100
and PSR-47.
Former keyboards: PSR-S970.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLVwWdb36Yd3LMBjAnm6pTQ?view_as=subscriber



Toril's PSR Performer Page
 

Offline Joe H

Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #52 on: March 25, 2019, 03:25:03 AM »

... Here are the short demos, which are better heard on a pair of good headphones,
in order to differentiate the sound better.

Best Regards.
Abby.

I hear a difference in the high-hat rather than the snare.  It's subtle difference.  Both sound good to me!

 ;)

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads in registrations. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline ckobu

Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #53 on: March 25, 2019, 09:12:40 AM »
Bass guitar in Genos is different and it gives a different sound to the drum. In addition, the drum ratio in Genos is somewhat lower than the other strips. A little bit of work in Drum Edit gives you such results. From my experience, a small number of rhythms in Genos have been processed worse than the 70'ScatLegend.

Best regards,  ckobu



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Offline Pianoman

Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #54 on: March 25, 2019, 05:38:08 PM »
Bass guitar in Genos is different and it gives a different sound to the drum. In addition, the drum ratio in Genos is somewhat lower than the other strips. A little bit of work in Drum Edit gives you such results. From my experience, a small number of rhythms in Genos have been processed worse than the 70'ScatLegend.

Best regards,  ckobu

Hello ckobu.

There are other styles too, but not all, where the drums are plain horrible.
It's mostly on the styles that try to emulate the drums of the 50s to the
 70s.
I just picked a style that I was working on, which happened to be the 70s ScatLegend,
but there are others.

I am not going to go on forever about this subject, but I had to express my opinion, as
well as encourage new prospective buyers to carry a set of headphones whose sound
quality they trust, when trying out a new instrument.

The rule of thumb is that if it sounds bad on headphones, it will sound even worse on
speakers.

I did go and try out the Genos quite a few times last year, and expressed my opinion
that it sounded dull and that the drums were disappointing, which, predictably I suppose,
caused howls of protest here.

Giving an opinion that is not complimentary usually will not win you many friends.

I sometimes think that it will take an innocent child to declare that "the Emperor has no
clothes" in order to inspire some people to come out and finally say what they really think.

I had to buy my Genos last month because I had gigs coming up in 2 days and didn't have
a keyboard to perform with.
It happened to be the only professional keyboard available on this entire island.

I had set my mind on buying something else as a second keyboard in the month of May
2019, probably a T5-61, but sadly my T3 gave up too soon.

Best Regards.
Abby.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2019, 06:06:58 PM by Pianoman »
 

Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #55 on: March 25, 2019, 08:09:22 PM »
It's clear that the difference is very light here.

But I listened to your 2 MP3s, on Yamaha MSP10 active monitors studio.

For me, Tyros 5 high hats do a little more artificial "psshhhh" or "ssss", and Tyros 5 snares do a little more artificial "poum" in your MP3 samples.  It's far to be awful, but it seems to me less realistic than Genos version which is more natural as standard rock drum kit for me.


Regards
Eric

 

beykock

  • Guest
Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #56 on: March 25, 2019, 08:42:52 PM »
Due to a T3 crash, Pianoman was obliged to buy a new highend arranger keyboard urgently. 😢

For professional players like Pianoman, having so much pro work, it might be very useful to add a spare arranger keyboard like e.g. an S970/975.

I know it is complicated, not an easy ( expensive ) solution but ... there are no other options available, IMHO.

Babette
« Last Edit: March 25, 2019, 09:03:42 PM by beykock »
 

Offline Pianoman

Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #57 on: March 25, 2019, 11:00:50 PM »
Due to a T3 crash, Pianoman was obliged to buy a new highend arranger keyboard urgently. 😢

For professional players like Pianoman, having so much pro work, it might be very useful to add a spare arranger keyboard like e.g. an S970/975.

I know it is complicated, not an easy ( expensive ) solution but ... there are no other options available, IMHO.

Babette

You are right Babette.

I am still looking for a shop demo T5-61 to buy, and keep as a spare.

However, I have to spread the cost of buying the Genos, which has eaten
into my budget, over the next couple of months.

It has almost completely paid for itself over the last 29 days, and my original plan
while my T3 was still working, was to buy a T5 or PA4X in the month of May.

But I am on the verge of buying a Roland RD2000 stage piano as well.
All this will require some deft juggling.

Best Regards.
Abby.

beykock

  • Guest
Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #58 on: March 26, 2019, 06:51:12 AM »
Hi Abby,

Thank you for your reply.

Adding a T5/61 could be a very good option, I guess.

I am sure you already found out the PA4X is a super arranger with a great sound but keep in mind Korg's software is completely different.😯

For your daily applications it could be a serious problem to work with 2 different systems ( like Win and Mac e.g. ).

Since your work is your daily income there are difficult decisions to be made : or you go for Yamaha or you go for Korg but a combination of these two brands is risky and very complicated, IMHO.

You are the Decision Maker ... Nobody Else !😀

Take care, Babette


 

Offline travlin-easy

Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #59 on: March 26, 2019, 06:17:26 PM »
During the past 30 years, while I was still gainfully, self-employed as a musician/singer/entertainer, I had a complete, duplicate setup. Ironically, though I performed 7 days a week, most of the time, I never experienced a keyboard failure. I guess I was just fortunate in that I never had to use my backup system. I had 2 of everything, identical keyboards, amps, mics, keyboard stands, custom consoles, laptops and pedals. I figured that if one system failed, or part of the system, that would go into the repair shop and I would still be able to work while the repairs were completed.

I listened to Abby's recordings, and there was a difference, mainly in the crispness of the drums. The Genos was definitely much softer sounding, but I believe that could have been tuned to sound identical to the other drum kit. The problem with all this is time, of which, we never seem to have enough of - especially when you are a full time entertainer and have to work every day. Now that I no longer have to work, my time is even more precious because I have so little remaining.

Good luck, Abby,

Gary  8)
Love Those Yammies...
 

Offline Toril S

Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #60 on: March 26, 2019, 08:52:06 PM »
Hello again Abby!
I am mot a professional musician, just an amateur, with occasional gigs. But my new S970 broke down, and it took 4 months before the matter was sorted out and I got a new keyboard. In the meantime I had some gigs. Had to use my old PSR 2100!
With floppy disks and all! It went well, but there were some hefty differences between the S970 and the 2100!
I understand the need to have a backup, especially if your music is the thing that brings food on your table!
Maybe your T3 could be brought back to life? And be your backup? I also understand the frustration about sound of Genos compared to your Tyros. I had a hard time adjusting, and, truth be told, I still think my old 2100 is better sounding in some ways than my S975!
Toril S

Genos, Tyros 5, PSR S975, PSR 2100
and PSR-47.
Former keyboards: PSR-S970.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLVwWdb36Yd3LMBjAnm6pTQ?view_as=subscriber



Toril's PSR Performer Page
 

Offline Pianoman

Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #61 on: March 27, 2019, 01:43:04 PM »
Thank you Gary and Toril for the good tips and well wishes.
Best Regards.
Abby.

Kaarlo von Freymann

  • Guest
Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #62 on: March 29, 2019, 10:37:21 PM »
Hello again Abby!
........... But my new S970 broke down, and it took 4 months before the matter was sorted out and I got a new keyboard....


I keep asking myself whether all the hype we read is paid for advertising just like the doctors claims  "there is no proof that smoking is habit forming" were lucrative lies.  A few years ago I actually had a  3 months long fight with TC Helicon about a malfunctioning Voice Works Plus that they in the end admitted was defective, but Helicon is a dwarf compared to YAMAHA.   


Cheers

Kaarlo
 

Offline markstyles

Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #63 on: May 14, 2020, 09:46:47 PM »
There are tons of different engineering/mixing approach to drums..  Way back when, drums were drums.. and you just took for granted how they sounded,  Then engineer/producers started really experimenting with them, taking of one of the heads, changing the snare wires on the snare drum, tuning the drums.  making them extremely weak, big, gated etc. Indeed a good producer really pays attention to the drums, their sound can help make or break a tune. 

I have found over the years, often the instrument sounds in Tyros and GENOS supersede a lot of other keyboards, and Kontakt libraries.  But in the drum department I agree with you.

While I think the drums will certainly pass in an arranger keyboard,  playing live.  I find in recording, I often replace them with drumagog, (a plugin for DAW which detects the audio of a certain drum and replaces it with a group of different drum samples.  or use ToonTrack Superior drums (there are a bunch more other companies also).. 

This ALWAYS brings us back to the sound, options on arranger kbd, and COST..     Yamaha has the very difficult job of deciding what features, what sounds, options etc, are going to be in the keyboard, and keep it at a price that a sizable number of people can afford. I often raise pitch of some drums, tighten the envelope and definitely tighten the snares..  But that is my personal preference.  Others will want Led Zeppelin drums smashing in a huge riverbed room. 

AND sometimes, I do end up using the GENOS drums the way they are, depending on the song , and it's arrangement.
 

Offline ugawoga

Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #64 on: May 18, 2020, 09:36:40 PM »
Hi
I think the Genos Drums are great, but they are all kick and snare  heavy in my view.
Adjustments to the kick and snare has to be made for songs to not get annoying.

All the Best
John :)
Genos, I7 computer 32 gig ram, Focusrite 6i6, Cubase controller, Focal Alpha Monitors, Yamaha DXR8 Speakers
Cubase 10, Sonarworks, Izotope.  Sampletank, Arturia and Korg software.  Now IK Mixbox
 

Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #65 on: May 19, 2020, 02:08:57 PM »
Overall, I think the Genos drums are more dynamic, not better. That's a combination of how the drums were sampled and then processed. I agree that Yamaha really dropped the ball on the kick drum. It's way too loud!! It's the same with the toms. They are very loud, boomy, and ringing. I always route them to a separate external mixer channel through the Sub 1 out so I can control the beasts!! I don't hear these anomalies when playing through studio monitors or cheap home speakers. It's only when I plug into large performance speakers, especially when adding a sub. I never had that issue with my T5.

During this Covid nonsense, I have spent the time honing my recording skills in Cubase. One very useful tool in Cubase Pro 10.5 is an EQ comparison tool. It displays two waveforms at once so you have a graphic version of how two instruments are fighting for the same acoustic space. Invariably, the bass guitar and kick drums in most of my raw recordings are about 6 dB too loud in the same frequency range. This problem translated to simple English is called "mud." Of course, I can fix the issue with the EQ tools.

The reason I mention this is I think the same issue may be happening in the raw, unprocessed Genos Revo kits. The kick, toms, and bass are all interacting in a very narrow bandwidth and fighting for attention. The result is a very "heavy" sound that is only useful in this terrible new Millenial style of music. You can probably use the Mixer > Filters to fix the problem. I've never tried it.

Abby plays a more traditional style and very well indeed!! He requires the more laidback sound of the T5 drums, hence why he thinks they are the superior choice. Metaphorically speaking, Abby has the wisdom, talent, and brains to not use a sledgehammer to drive a finishing nail home. A simple tack hammer is all he needs.

Abby, keep doing what you do best, and that is to bring musical happiness to people by just bringing your tack hammer to the stage :).
"Learn" your music correctly, then "practice" it. Don't practice mistakes because you'll learn them.
 

Offline J. Larry

Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #66 on: May 20, 2020, 01:32:17 AM »
When it comes to the sound of the instruments/voices included in a new arranger, as well as the styles, would it be too much to expect Yamaha to bring in well-experienced studio types, who are tops at mastering music?  Maybe they do.  Or, are the final decisions made by the style programmers?  What if new arrangers first passed the “inspection” of recording engineers, who are tops in the various genres of styles represented on arrangers----so that the sound is truly representative of past and current trends in musical styles?
 

Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #67 on: May 20, 2020, 01:49:32 AM »
When it comes to the sound of the instruments/voices included in a new arranger, as well as the styles, would it be too much to expect Yamaha to bring in well-experienced studio types, who are tops at mastering music?  Maybe they do.  Or, are the final decisions made by the style programmers?  What if new arrangers first passed the “inspection” of recording engineers, who are tops in the various genres of styles represented on arrangers----so that the sound is truly representative of past and current trends in musical styles?
Those are all great ideas, J.Larry. Trouble is, nowadays the tech people no longer have much say about what should be built. It's the marketing dudes (or duds, depending on your viewpoint) who call the shots, and their strings are being pulled by the profit junkies called, "Management."

Undoubtedly, we're dealing with much younger marketing people who think the traditional sound is passe, and all you and I need is this heavy bottom end frequency junk. Now I know how my parents felt about the music I listened to as a teenager. You know, the music of those horrible performers like Neil Diamond and the Beatles. They were awful compared to Benny Goodman and Tommy Dorsey!

I'm going through a similar exercise trying to find decent drum plugins for recording. The Genos drums are just not up to the task. In my hunt for good drum plugins, I have found that most contain 80 percent of this modern EDM or other electronic garbage that I never use. All I want are decent Country, Blues, and Jazz styles. Finding them is next to impossible!!
« Last Edit: May 20, 2020, 01:52:15 AM by Lee Batchelor »
"Learn" your music correctly, then "practice" it. Don't practice mistakes because you'll learn them.
 

Offline jugge

Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #68 on: May 21, 2020, 08:36:57 AM »
I'm going through a similar exercise trying to find decent drum plugins for recording. The Genos drums are just not up to the task. In my hunt for good drum plugins, I have found that most contain 80 percent of this modern EDM or other electronic garbage that I never use. All I want are decent Country, Blues, and Jazz styles. Finding them is next to impossible!!

Hi Lee,

Have you checked out Ezdrummer or it's big brother superior drummer?  https://www.toontrack.com/product/ezdrummer-2/ They have a lot of expansion packs which contains drumkits for blues, country, jazz etc. I've just started to explore this product and it's really easy to work with. It comes with pre-recorded drum midifiles that you just drag and drop into Cubase.

Best regards
/Jugge
Welcome to Yamaha Beats. Genos and MODX covers on YouTube.
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Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #69 on: May 21, 2020, 12:21:05 PM »
Hi Jugge,

Yes I have. You're correct, in that those programs hold the most promise for me. Thanks for the note.
"Learn" your music correctly, then "practice" it. Don't practice mistakes because you'll learn them.