Author Topic: Drums, Drums, Drums.  (Read 26154 times)

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Offline Pianoman

Drums, Drums, Drums.
« on: March 05, 2019, 09:12:40 PM »
I have had the chance to download all styles from the T2 right up to the T5, with the
sole purpose of listening to the evolution of all the drumkits from the aforementioned
Keyboards.

It struck me that the T2 had what we now call legacy standard drumkits that had a loose
kind of sound, like the skins of the snare and bass drum were not properly tightened,
and where some of the kits sounded like one is playing drums inside a tunnel or metal
container.

Then the T3 came along with nicely tight drumkits possessing tight bass drums and
snappy snares on the majority of their styles, which is ideal for live playing, or even just
playing at home through speakers or headphones.

I then listened to the T4 drumkits and  noticed that the tunnel sound on the drums
slowly started returning to the drumkits.

It got worse by the time the T5 arrived, where the T5 drums had more in common with the
T2 than the T4.

After buying the Genos as an emergency measure, I am absolutely shocked by the
atrocious drumming in a tunnel hollow kind of sound that came with so many of the
drumkits on this keyboard.

My view is that on most of these keyboards the manufacturer's emphasis may have
been more on great intros and endings, as well as other accompaniment voices and
right hand solo voices. Leaving the drums by the wayside.

The much vaunted REVO!! drumkits have turned things full circle and brought back the
hollow sound again, and where even the hi-hats and cymbals sound like hitting the side
of a bottle or tin can.

In a previous post from a year back at least, I posted an opinion that the most important things
that make a style great are the drums and the bass.

All the other accompaniment sounds and voices are just garnish on the cake,
that should be used as sparingly as possible.

There simply cannot be a great style if the drums are unsatisfactory and they ARE
unsatisfactory on the Genos.

I have been playing music for a living since the age of 16, first in bands, then as a solo
artist, and like to think that I know what I'm talking about.

Please note that this is only my opinion, and in no way is meant to criticise the opinions,
choices, or judgements of the illustrious members of this forum.

It is also not a wholesale criticism of the Genos as an instrument, just the drumkits.
They are the thing that makes or breaks a good style, and they could have been
better.

Best Regards.
Abby.

« Last Edit: March 05, 2019, 09:16:51 PM by Pianoman »
 

Offline Toril S

Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2019, 09:58:55 PM »
Hello Abby :)I have the T5 and the S975, but, believe it or not, I like the drumkits on my old 2100 the best.
BUT, I know almost nothing about drums, how they should sound etc, it is just how they sound to me, how I like their sound that matters to me.  I understand that drums are the backbone of any music, and they are very important.
Let us hear more about your Genos, how it goes? Congratulations! I believe you can edit the drum sound, but don't ask me how!
Toril S

Genos, Tyros 5, PSR S975, PSR 2100
and PSR-47.
Former keyboards: PSR-S970.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLVwWdb36Yd3LMBjAnm6pTQ?view_as=subscriber



Toril's PSR Performer Page
 

Offline Patrick

Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2019, 11:09:12 PM »
Hello Abby 100 % with you; i change the drums kit on all the styles i'm playing; i just want simple drums kit! they're the best for live playing; have a nice day Patrick
 ;)
 

Offline RoyceM

Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2019, 11:29:20 PM »
For many of the songs I play, I switch to a Brush Kit.

- Royce
DGX-305, Roland E60, S900, S910, S975, Center Point Stereo Spacestation V.3, Bose L1 Compact
PSR Performer page
 

Offline ugawoga

Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2019, 01:06:13 AM »
Hi
I find the drumkits on the Genos great, but you have to manipulate them.
I find the bass too heavy and the drumkits have to be pushed up or brought down a little sometimes. I find the kicks  heavy and have to reduce them a little.
You can EQ the drums to your likeing. It takes time manipulating old Ginger Baker!! 8)  Eric Delany and  Buddy Rich!!! ;D
I do find that you have to work at the Genos a lot more than the T5  for great results.
I am amazed at what you can get out of the Genos .
I love the Byrds songs and making an octive sounding guitar out of two guitars and then playing with your fingers an octave distance makes sounds like the Byrds spot on with that jingle jangle I come following you sound!! ;D. There is so much to dig down into with the Genos.
Just played Summer of 69 a Bryan adams song and it is just amazing how authentic you can make It. I have got Rondo Veneziano  La Serrisima sounding like the real mcoy.
I think a lot of it is getting the EQ just right and not over doing the reverbs etc.

Well That is my opinion . :P

Also with those DXR8's in my room playing with flat eq is just right as adding all those gold Eq's etc create boom in the room.
Playing with the Eq of each track in a style and volume adjusting and also cutting some sounds does the trick for me and I am still experimenting.
I have a little tweak every now and then, but always come back to flat somehow.
I do know that getting your sounds right playing live gigs can be more trickier. I do not play out , but i used to run a disco before stopping after 10 years at it and then taking up playing the keyboards. Some rooms are great and some like an echo chambers and some with wobbly stages. Not good for the old stylus/stylii. ::)
That was 38 years ago!! :o ;). " I had long hair then!!. Now where did i put that Biotin tablet!! :-\
AHHH!! :P i should be talking about drums !!! ::)


All the best
john :)
« Last Edit: March 06, 2019, 01:21:22 AM by ugawoga »
Genos, I7 computer 32 gig ram, Focusrite 6i6, Cubase controller, Focal Alpha Monitors, Yamaha DXR8 Speakers
Cubase 10, Sonarworks, Izotope.  Sampletank, Arturia and Korg software.  Now IK Mixbox
 

Offline pjd

Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2019, 02:01:32 PM »
You can EQ the drums to your likeing. It takes time manipulating old Ginger Baker!! 8)  Eric Delany and  Buddy Rich!!! ;D

And, here, we thought we had gotten rid of our troubles with drummers. Well, at least the Genos doesn't show up late.  :)

-- pj

Offline EileenL

Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2019, 03:55:09 PM »
I have to agree John that you really can change most to suit your individual taste hence calling the keyboard an arranger.

Offline vbdx66

Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2019, 04:44:35 PM »
And, here, we thought we had gotten rid of our troubles with drummers. Well, at least the Genos doesn't show up late.  :)

-- pj
Very true, but I think that Ginger Acer, Eric Delany and Buddy Rich could go on playing even in the event of a power failure  ;D ;D ;D
Past keyboards: PSR E313, PSR E413, PSR E433, PSR S550, DGX 640, upright piano.
Now: DGX 650, Casio CT-X800.
 

Offline manuel

Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2019, 07:25:03 PM »
I agree with John and Eillen.....

I have been doing music since I was 12, now 63, so, 51 years playing....and since I like software and computers, also in the last 6 -7 years ago, as an external consultant for Yamaha Corporation of America and from time to time also with Yamaha de México been part of the team that develops the Expansion packs like the Mariachi-Norteño, Banda Mexicana, Cumbia latina y mas, and the soon to be release "Fiesta Caliente"... 8)

I still play in senior dances in the Phoenix AZ Metropolitan area. The Genos is a joy to play with. :) ;) :D 8)

my 2 cents.

Manuel
My 2 Cents

Manuel
 

Offline Gloria

Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2019, 08:01:40 PM »
Hi Manuel,  (sorry Abby, I am chris-crossing posts!)  :-[
   It was good to hear you're still going strong in the music world, especially in Phoenix!  :)  I am now enjoying a Genos also, using it for teaching & my own enjoyment.

Gloria
« Last Edit: March 06, 2019, 10:27:45 PM by Gloria »
"Music is the Universal Language"
PSR Performer Page
 
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Offline mikf

Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2019, 08:31:39 PM »
Abby
I am a bit puzzled by what you are saying. Uploading a style from another will result in it calling up the drum kits on that instrument, not from the original instrument. i.e. if you play a style from the T2 or T4 on the Genos, the drum kits you hear have to be on the Genos. That wouldn’t be true if you are comparing two different instruments directly, but if you upload the style from one to another ......
Mike
 

Offline panos

Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2019, 08:49:37 PM »
Hi Abby,
Tunnel sound is caused probably from the reverb effect on the drumkit and the hollow sound from the luck of reverb and other effects maybe?

I would consider preset styles/OTS on a keyboard as just basic tools to work with and make them sound to our liking.
I wouldn't expect from a technician or a group of developers to have the same taste with me on how drumkits and voices should sound.
So I am using the mixing console and style creator to change things for better or worst but at least for the final result it's only me to blame.
If a sheet music has things I don't like,I just change them.Same thing.

Maybe you have missed my other post where I have written that from what I understood,
as long as the drums are not following any chords, on Genos you can record real drums to play in a style and not having to use Yamaha's drumkits at all.
Using a pc program can also do the job:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNZWClzqRwQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8ecAOZWaag
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhlhMxb1PC0

If these things are easy or not?
If you want an arrangement for a song to be good as you wish,sometimes you've got to pay the price I guess.
(in time,effort,experimentation,mistakes,dissapointment etc)

If I stick to just what I have studied and expect from pc programs(with faults,with lots of changes I don't like etc)to do the job for me in the office I am working,
I will be unemployed.
 
The keyboard is a machine with lots of features to make it sound right.

We've got to learn how to use them little by little everytime.
And I am not reffering to Abby of course, but to all of us  :)
« Last Edit: March 06, 2019, 08:50:52 PM by panos »
 

Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2019, 09:37:10 PM »
I agree with John and Eillen.....

I have been doing music since I was 12, now 63, so, 51 years playing....and since I like software and computers, also in the last 6 -7 years ago, as an external consultant for Yamaha Corporation of America and from time to time also with Yamaha de México been part of the team that develops the Expansion packs like the Mariachi-Norteño, Banda Mexicana, Cumbia latina y mas, and the soon to be release "Fiesta Caliente"... 8)

I still play in senior dances in the Phoenix AZ Metropolitan area. The Genos is a joy to play with. :) ;) :D 8)

my 2 cents.

Manuel

Amazing! I hope we can see and hear megavoice latin brass or something like that on these new “Fiesta Caliente” expansion pack because the factory megavoice brass sounds incredible but I think it still doesn’t sound good compare to real latin brass ensemble.
————————————————————————————————————————————————————
Genial! Espero que el nuevo paquete “fiesta caliente” tenga nuevos sonidos megavoice de metales, y saxos, entre otras cosas. Porque estoy seguro que usted como latino estará de acuerdo en que si bien el sonido “Megavoice Brass” de los PSR S (que proviene del Tyros 2, si no me equivoco) es aun increíblemente realista, no es el más adecuado para música latina,  y esto es entre otras cosas por el tipo de micrófonos que se utilizó para grabar por ejemplo a la trompeta y que estoy seguro que es diferente del que se utiliza para grabar una trompeta de un ensamble real de metales de música latina.
 

Offline Pianoman

Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2019, 10:24:55 PM »
Abby
I am a bit puzzled by what you are saying. Uploading a style from another will result in it calling up the drum kits on that instrument, not from the original instrument. i.e. if you play a style from the T2 or T4 on the Genos, the drum kits you hear have to be on the Genos. That wouldn’t be true if you are comparing two different instruments directly, but if you upload the style from one to another ......
Mike

Hello Mike.

When I upload or use a T3, T4, or T5 style,  the style will play the original drumkits that
were in those keyboards. These drumkits exist in the Genos as legacy kits.

On the other hand, if you try to incorporate an old drumkit into a Genos style it might
sometimes work, but more often than not you will get a strange sound in the kit.
Like a DJ doing his scratching routine on a vinyl record.

I have been busy over the last few days converting all my registrations back to T3, T4,
and T5 styles, depending  on what sounds best for the song, in order to redo the styles
that the Genos has auto replaced with Genos styles.

I had to buy the Genos in a hurry,  because my T3 died just 2 days before an important
gig, It was the only arranger keyboard in the local stores here.

I said in my original post above that I am not criticising this instrument wholesale.
Or other people's inclination to praise it to the heavens.

I just think they could have done much better with the drums, or just let things be.
When you have a good thing, and it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I am a very practical man and use my instruments only as a means to earn a living.

I once caught some flak on this site for saying that I have no emotional attachment
to an instrument other than that it's a tool for my work.
But that's what it is.

Just like some people do other jobs, this is what I do, and a Piano and keyboard are
my work tools.

I am also well versed in fine tuning a synthesizer or arranger, having spent hours
every day dealing with EQ, Filters, Effects, Compression, and balancing  style
tracks for the last 20 years.

And I still insist that the drums sounded crisper and tighter on the T3 through to the T5.

Best Regards.
Abby.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2019, 10:44:29 PM by Pianoman »
 

Offline markstyles

Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2019, 04:03:11 PM »
Drums can certainly vary a huge amount..  I am not particularly enamored with the Genos drum sounds. I use Genos with a recording studio set-up. I often use Superior Drums, but sometimes use Genos drum patterns. Ultimately i use a drum replacement program like Drumagog or Steven Slates Trigger.

Don't like the balance or eq or particular drums in Genos drums. Although I believe they are fine for playing live. A lot of this boils down to the equipment you have to use, and the situation.  I do not play out live, only in recording studio. If I performed as a one man band. I would use the Genos as it is. It fits the bill.

Genos has a price point they have to maintain.. If they put all the extra features in, ability to alter pitch, EQ, ADSR panning, reverb send for each individual drum, the price would go up, or another feature would be compromised.  We as musicians, must accept our instrument for wha it is..  You do not expect an upright piano to sound like a Hammond B3. i do believe the Genos to be possibly the one best single kbd for me to use (I do have other hardware and virtual instruments), but Genos is the center piece. It is one remarkable package of hardware and programming.
 

Offline DerekA

Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2019, 04:13:52 PM »
If they put all the extra features in, ability to alter pitch, EQ, ADSR panning, reverb send for each individual drum, the price would go up, or another feature would be compromised.

But they did. This function is present in PSR Sx70, Sx75 and Genos. They called it 'drum setup'.
Genos
 

Offline mikf

Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2019, 04:22:16 PM »
I think Abby is commenting rather than complaining. The sound of the drums on Genos styles doesn't suit him. But as he says there are alternatives where he can make it what he likes. Its a bit of work though.
This is probably one of these areas which is not about good or bad - just individual taste, or even just what you are used to hearing. There are a lot of very sophisticated musicians involved in the Genos design team, so I venture a guess they didn't just make these changes without thinking, they thought it was an improvement. But then everyone has their own take. 
Mike
 
 

Offline Joe H

Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2019, 07:50:44 PM »
Hey Abby,

If you are interested in editing your favorite styles with PC software you can tweak the drums to your liking and save the style back.
Here's a thread you can learn about what I am talking about. StyleMagic has a great drum editor. You can tighten up those snares, tom toms and kick drums to suit your taste.

http://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,47213.msg383999.html#msg383999

Joe H

« Last Edit: March 07, 2019, 07:52:00 PM by Joe H »
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads in registrations. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline panos

Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2019, 08:19:13 PM »
But they did. This function is present in PSR Sx70, Sx75 and Genos. They called it 'drum setup'.

For older models:
Style creator->Edit tab-> press filter and check everything in Main & Ctrl change menu.
It will display all events and you can insert the ones you like to be applied in each single note of each part of the style.
I can see several effects there like panpot,modulation,pitch bent,brghtness,dsp send level etc.
Isn't it the same thing?

DonM

  • Guest
Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2019, 09:46:52 PM »
My 2 cents worth, and that's about all it's worth . . .
Yes drum sounds are subject to individual tastes and to what we are used to hearing.
No, you shouldn't have to edit or replace drum sounds on a 4-5 thousand dollar keyboard.
Yes, I knew what Abby liked, and advised him to get a Korg.  :)
But there were none to try.
I only played a Genos for most of one day, and thought it sounded very much like previous Yamahas. I didn't edit, change, adjust anything, but I don't like to do any more of that than I have to do, and it wasn't my Genos anyway.
Just food for thought, and only my opinions . . .
Abby could make a Casio sound great if he wanted.
 

Offline DerekA

Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2019, 10:14:33 PM »
Isn't it the same thing?

 Almost .. the newer drum setup function has more options (e.g. select an instrument from a completely different kit, effectively allowing you to build a custom kit without using YEM) and all those options are available through the keyboard panel. Many people don't want to have to use external software, no matter how good it is.

Offline pjd

Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #21 on: March 08, 2019, 01:50:56 PM »
On the other hand, if you try to incorporate an old drumkit into a Genos style it might
sometimes work, but more often than not you will get a strange sound in the kit.
Like a DJ doing his scratching routine on a vinyl record.

Hi Abby --

Yep, Yamaha used different MIDI note drum mappings for the Revo drums. This does cause compatibility problems since the new Genos styles use the newer Revo drum note mapping. Older styles usually work OK with Revo drums, but I've run into a weird thing every now and again.

Background info at: http://sandsoftwaresound.net/genos-hi-hat-happiness/

Take care -- pj
 

Offline markstyles

Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #22 on: March 09, 2019, 05:35:27 AM »
Thank you DerekA

I was not aware they had added that into Genos.  Yes, a great feature.  That makes the drums much more useful.. 
 

Bachus

  • Guest
Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #23 on: March 09, 2019, 07:13:08 AM »
But they did. This function is present in PSR Sx70, Sx75 and Genos. They called it 'drum setup'.

This....
 

Offline andyg

Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #24 on: March 09, 2019, 08:39:08 AM »
Very true, but I think that Ginger Acer, Eric Delany and Buddy Rich could go on playing even in the event of a power failure  ;D ;D ;D

Last time I experienced a power failure at a gig, the drummer refused to play as 'there wasn't enough light to see the dots'. Funny, I carried on, I'd learnt my bits off by heart!   :D
It's not what you play, it's not how you play. It's the fact that you're playing that counts.

www.andrew-gilbert.com
 

Offline mikf

Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #25 on: March 09, 2019, 05:58:20 PM »
A drummer who reads dots ......... you’ll be telling us he can do joined up writing next :D
Mike
 

Offline Pianoman

Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #26 on: March 10, 2019, 10:27:39 PM »
I am slowly rebuilding my T3 in the Genos.

I have copied and linked all my Registrations, T3 styles, right and left hand voices into the
Genos user drive.

It's been quite a job, but I now have the drums that I prefer and it's also the easiest way for
me to continue gigging while I figure out what to do with the Genos styles and drums.

I will not continue criticising this instrument anymore other than to say that I expected
much better.

Even though I bought it for 3200 Euros new, I really expected better after all the hype.

I use this instrument for my work and it's been a painfully embarrassing two weeks
for me in front of my audiences.

I wish that I had more time to choose another suitable keyboard but I had to buy the
first keyboard that I could lay my hands on because I was without an instrument 36
hours before an entire week of gigs.

I'm glad to say though that the keyboard has practically paid for itself these past two
weeks.

Best Regards.
Abby.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2019, 10:34:31 PM by Pianoman »
 

Offline Toril S

Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #27 on: March 10, 2019, 11:02:34 PM »
Hello Abby :) What you have done is sensible. Adapting your Genos to the drums and styles you are used to is the way to go. But I believe you will grow into the Genos, and come to like it more and more, you will see how versatile it is. Moving up to a new keyboard is hard! When I got my S970 I sat up the whole night and cried because the styles and voices sounded so terrible compared to my 15 years (!) old PSR 2100!! Then I loaded all my old styles into it and were happy again. For many months I thought of it as a newer, black version of my PSR 2100! Then I started to grow into it, and realized that it sounded much better than my old keyboard. But I still use a lot of the old styles. My S970 broke down, and I had to take out my trusty, old PSR 2100 again. Then I really noticed the difference. I could hear that my 2100 had some years under the hood!  So just take some time. Congratulations on your wonderful new tool, and good luck with your gigs!
Toril S

Genos, Tyros 5, PSR S975, PSR 2100
and PSR-47.
Former keyboards: PSR-S970.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLVwWdb36Yd3LMBjAnm6pTQ?view_as=subscriber



Toril's PSR Performer Page
 

Offline Henni

Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #28 on: March 11, 2019, 05:40:05 AM »
I like to read between the lines:

1. DonM says Abby can make even a Casio sound good.
2. Abby says his/her events paid for the Genos in full in just two weeks of permorming with it.

Abby is therefor a serious, well talented musician - definitely in a higher class/demand range than most. I would not take his/her comments so lightly, even though I do not own a Genos myself...
« Last Edit: March 11, 2019, 05:43:54 AM by Henni »
...Fly Forever!
 

beykock

  • Guest
Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #29 on: March 11, 2019, 12:36:37 PM »
Henni,

Abby ( Pianoman ) is a real and great pro gigger.

Most of the members here are home players.
Their needs might be different.

Babette

Kaarlo von Freymann

  • Guest
Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #30 on: March 18, 2019, 12:25:23 AM »
For many of the songs I play, I switch to a Brush Kit.

- Royce

So do I. This again shows we play different music and therefor we like different sounds. For instance I understand the HAMMOND sound is very popular with those who used to play a HAMMOND.  So the better a keyboard emulates a Hammond, the more they praise it.  As I played guitar and saxophones before switching to keyboards I always felt the Hammond sound is too far away from real instruments, kind of synthetic so I never use Hammond sounds on my keyboards. 
As a fact as much as I agree with those who say YAMAHA keyboards since Tyros sound pretty much the same, I for one do prefer the Genos drums that my friend Abby  - whom I admire -  is not very happy with.

Cheers

Kaarlo 
 

Kaarlo von Freymann

  • Guest
Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #31 on: March 18, 2019, 02:19:23 AM »
Hi Abby,
...I would consider preset styles/OTS on a keyboard as just basic tools to work with and make them sound to our liking.
....So I am using the mixing console and style creator to change things for better or worst but at least for the final result it's only me to blame.
...Maybe you have missed my other post where I have written that from what I understood,
as long as the drums are not following any chords, on Genos you can record real drums to play in a style and not having to use Yamaha's drumkits at all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhlhMxb1PC0

......If you want an arrangement for a song to be good as you wish,sometimes you've got to pay the price I guess.
... ..If I stick to just what I have studied and expect from pc programs ...The keyboard is a machine with lots of features to make it sound right.....We've got to learn how to use them little by little everytime.


Thanks, I loved this comparison. Excellent idea and very well done and very entertaining.  At 3:20 you can hear what a deum machine is not good at.
Here again it is eviden we all play and like different music. I would never use these modern drum patterns because they are so different from what I feel drums are all about:  creating swing. But the swing era was 60 years ago  ;) and some of the drumming could bring to mind Gene Krupa, who for me often a bit too machine gun like. Here comes Sammy Davis. Start at  1:50. Few were as good in so many things as he, singer, dancer, drummer, playing the vibraphone. BTW the YAMAHA vibes are very realistic.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USxvJFfKXrE

Cheers

Kaarlo
 

Offline Oymmot

Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #32 on: March 18, 2019, 12:02:55 PM »
As we say in sweden when it is absolutely right. You've hit the head on the nail!
I use only set 87.
 Revodrums  :'(
Tommy
Tommy Ölin
E-post: tommy.sune.olin@gmail.com
 
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Offline soryt

Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #33 on: March 18, 2019, 01:47:28 PM »
What I miss the most in this discussion about the alleged bad drum sound of the Genos, What does the audience think about the drum sounds of the Genos?
Have they complained or wasn't it so bad to hear?
I think in this case there is a deteriorated ear of the musician who has been exposed to high sound pressure for too long in his long musical career. It is strange that thousands of people are very satisfied with the new drum kits of the Genos and suddenly out of the blue it would not be good anymore according to a professional player. there are indeed a lot of things to improve on the Genos, but when it comes to drum kits, Yamaha is really on the right track.

Soryt
Genos & YC61 and Tannoy Gold 5 Monitors
My You Tube Channel : https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmC6hdAR1v5lYN8twfn0YbA?view_as=subscriber
 

Offline emmaco

Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #34 on: March 18, 2019, 03:53:35 PM »
Abby ( Pianoman ) is a real and great pro gigger.

Yes. So do I... and other players I think…;)

And I really love the drums’s sound of the Genos.
Yes, you’ll have to change 2-3 things, but in the end it will be ok.
It’s sounds like a real drummer, in contrary of previous engines. And it counts a lot.

I missed sync stop in full AI keyboard mode.

But IMHO, drum’s sounds are great.






Offline travlin-easy

Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #35 on: March 18, 2019, 04:14:15 PM »
The drum sounds are a subjective subject, and this will vary from one musician to another, especially those of us that are or were on stage for decades. Personally, I only played a Genos for 2 hours, it sounded fantastic through headphones, and had i not retired, I would have purchased one when it first became available and after testing it first hand. Now that I have retired, I'll stick with my aging S950, which I absolutely love.

All the drums are tunable in the most of the S series and Genos. However, it requires lots of work and time and effort to do this, and then all this must be placed within registrations as the tuning reverts back to factory preset once the keyboard is turned off.

All the best,

Gary 8)
Love Those Yammies...
 

Offline Pianoman

Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #36 on: March 20, 2019, 10:43:43 PM »
What I miss the most in this discussion about the alleged bad drum sound of the Genos, What does the audience think about the drum sounds of the Genos?
Have they complained or wasn't it so bad to hear?
I think in this case there is a deteriorated ear of the musician who has been exposed to high sound pressure for too long in his long musical career. It is strange that thousands of people are very satisfied with the new drum kits of the Genos and suddenly out of the blue it would not be good anymore according to a professional player. there are indeed a lot of things to improve on the Genos, but when it comes to drum kits, Yamaha is really on the right track.

Soryt

Please note that this is only my opinion, and in no way is meant to criticise the opinions,
choices, or judgements of the illustrious members of this forum.

It is also not a wholesale criticism of the Genos as an instrument, just the drumkits.
They are the thing that makes or breaks a good style, and they could have been
better.

Best Regards.
Abby.

Hello Soryt.

I was counting the days until my comments would ruffle some feathers, where someone
would discreetly get personal.

Please note that in my original post I stressed that my comments were not made to
denigrate the tastes and preferences of others, nor to criticise the Genos itself in
a wholesale way as an instrument.

First I would like to say that audiences do not notice or care about drums or the
instrument you're playing, contrary to what some people may say here.

If you proudly say to your audience that you have a new instrument, someone will
come along and say that it sounds great.

They don't mean it, they just say that to make you feel good.

I have played with many drummers for over 25 years before going solo.Some were ok,
and some were good, but a couple of drummers that I played with in Germany were
absolutely magnificent.

I did not say in my original post that I can't hear drums or have problems with my ears.

My hearing is just fine and I know good drums when I hear them.

Since 1971 i have lived and performed in 8 countries, 6 of them in Europe, in my chosen
career.

When I listen to or play music, I absorb every nuance of every instrument in the given song.
That includes chord structures, drum accents, basslines, melody lines, solo instruments,
and vocals as well.
I then memorize all this information, to be performed in front of a bunch of people later.

I am not alone in this, there are many good musicians on this forum who probably do the
same thing.

Though I can't read music, I am a perfectionist and will listen to a single song for days on end
If necessary, until it becomes a part of me.

I am saying this in order to explain that this is very good ear training.
You listen to every tiny detail and nothing is left to chance.

Those who play music for a living have to be at their best and get it right ALL the time,
without exception, even through illness or injury.

A mediocre performance is unacceptable and would probably be your last gig in that
particular venue.

This is why drums are so important to me.

Drums and Bass are what will make or break a song. A good solid drum with a rock solid
bassline are essential. I am not getting this from the Genos drums.

I have downloaded Onacimus' conversions of Genos styles for the Tyros series and
they've been a lifesaver for me.

I get to play Genos styles while using Tyros drums instead of Genos drums, which I
can't stand.

It's a matter of personal opinion and taste, not loss of hearing.
What could be wrong with that?

Best Regards.
Abby.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2019, 11:52:07 PM by Pianoman »
 

Offline hans1966

Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #37 on: March 21, 2019, 01:14:06 AM »
Hello Abby, I agree with you, especially when you say that you do not read the score, but you have developed the ear, to examine each sound, instrument, dynamics and intention if you want of the author of the melody or song. I often use the ear, to learn new songs, both instrumental and sung, but perhaps where I have to pay more attention is when I have to make sequences, since most of the original songs have a lot of mixing in the sound, so I have to listen to several Sometimes the same part, to get the melody of a particular instrument, which sometimes is not well appreciated. In this work I have been more than 35 years, and although I love doing this type of work for some singing friends, I confess that it is slow and exhausting. that is why I understand your position with respect to the sound and character that each instrument must have, at a certain moment. Greetings. Hans
"Enjoying my SX600, and moving step by step through the journey of life"
 

beykock

  • Guest
Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #38 on: March 21, 2019, 08:03:53 AM »
Very interesting to read the comments of a successful and professional gigger like Abby ( Pianoman ).

It is rather unusual an arranger keyboard player is replacing the latest and newest preset styles by converted styles of older arrangers to do his daily job sucessfully.

I never heard that ever before. 😱

Babette
« Last Edit: March 21, 2019, 08:10:55 AM by beykock »
 

Offline travlin-easy

Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #39 on: March 21, 2019, 03:57:18 PM »
Abby, apparently, great minds think alike. I too agree with everything you said, and like you, I cannot read music, well maybe enough to hinder my performances. I studied each and every song I performed and did my best to duplicate that song as closely as possible. This often meant tuning the styles to fit that song, then saving that information into a registration, or completely revising the style and saving it as a user style, renaming it to the title of the song for easy and fast reference. This took years to accumulate all the styles I needed for my performances. And, yes, you must be at the top of your game, even when you are sick - the audiences don't give a damned if you are knocking on death's door - they just want to be entertained.

All the best, old friend,

Gary  8)
Love Those Yammies...
 

Offline Pianoman

Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #40 on: March 21, 2019, 04:36:55 PM »
Hello Gary my friend.

It's good to see you here. I've been practicing day and night for the past two weeks and
have little time to write or comment. I pop in here once a week or something.

The styles you sent me are a treasure and I'm quite busy with them too.
They're almost all perfect as they are and need little or no adjustments at all.
I only adjust the master volume on some of them, mostly for the compression.

I have been learning how to edit these styles and put in the kit I like, as well as removing
things like claves, clicks etc, and replacing them with hi-hats and so on.
I revert to acoustic or standard drums and then work on them.

It's a long and tedious process, and shouldn't have to be this way.
The quest for authenticity on some drumkits hasn't always made things better.
Quite the contrary.

I use a style for Superstition called SuperGroove for example, and the drums are awful,
so I use the conversion from Onacimus instead.

I'll get this thing to sound better, but it's going to be a long and frustrating process.

I don't have time for this, that's the problem.
This weekend I have 3 gigs for three completely different kinds of audiences.

Tomorrow will be for older Spanish people, Saturday will be young Spanish people, and
Sunday will be Rock n Roll and Soul music all afternoon for our local English expatriates.

For the young Spaniards it will be Salsa, Flamenco, Rock n Roll, and plenty of Rock
music. They're crazy about Rock music.

Best Regards.
Abby.

PS: I bought the Genos on the 21st of February and it has almost completely paid for
itself already.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2019, 04:48:07 PM by Pianoman »
 

Kaarlo von Freymann

  • Guest
Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #41 on: March 22, 2019, 12:09:50 AM »
Hello Soryt.
.....audiences do not notice or care about drums or the instrument you're playing, contrary to what some people may say here. .....If you proudly say to your audience that you have a new instrument, someone will come along and say that it sounds great.....they just say that to make you feel good......I did not say in my original post .....that I have problems with my ears....My hearing is just fine and I know good drums when I hear them.....Though I can't read music, I am a perfectionist and will listen to a single song for days on end.......Those who play music for a living have to be at their best and get it right ALL the time, without exception, even through illness or injury.....Drums and Bass are what will make or break a song. A good solid drum with a rock solid  bassline are essential. I am not getting this from the Genos drums......It's a matter of personal opinion and taste, not loss of hearing.

Best Regards.
Abby.
[/color]

Hi Abby,  thanks  once again for saying what I believe to be true.  My experience is exactly what you state: "audiences do not notice or care about drums or the instrument you're playing, contrary to what some people may say here[/b] 

We all know that keyboard drum roles are a far cry form the real thing, but in spite of that many use it to introduce a speaker as it does get attention. Nobody except a drummer has ever told me: your drum roll is a joke.

I just could not play trumpets and saxes without the analog VCF anf VCA . I intonate these instruments by blowing into a silicone tube.  (I started out playing sax like you)  To me they would not sound right me without being "blown", but I have never seen anyone else using  that system.  Most comments I get are not about how real my saxes or trumpets sound, no. it is a grin "is that tube connected to a bottle of vodka in your amp case ?"  (I have only played in Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Italy  and Germany so there is still the possibility that posters from the UK and USA have a different audience)

Like you I cannot play from sheet music - except a sax where the fingers are already positioned correctly. So like you I learn the chordal progression and melody by listening, and some left hand chords by Oscar Peterson cannot even be reproduce as a keyboard style.

I have always felt lucky I did not earn my living by playing.  You can be a successful lawyer though you may lose a lot of battles in court,  but as you say a musician must be at his best ALL the time. Which is probably one reason the greatest musicians are overrepresented in drug and alcohol abuse. (Stan Gez, Charly Parker....)  The stress is perpetual.
I am sure your opinion is not due to loss of hearing. BTW though we tend to believe it is loud popular music that destroys hearing, at least here in Finland Classical musicians are even worse off. Several of my friends, who played in symphony orchestras were disabilty - pensioned.  Shostakvich 7th  is about 116 dB at the end.
I for one am inclined to believe your opinion is a matter of valid personal opinion, not loss of hearing.

The fact that for me the Genos Drums are  Ok might be because I am not a professional and  cannot hear anything above 8000 hz

Cheers

Kaarlo
 
 

Offline EileenL

Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #42 on: March 22, 2019, 12:42:04 PM »
Hi Abby,
  Have you tried replacing the drum kits on some of the styles from the Legacy folder on Genos or downloaded the Audio styles which will now work from a USB stick or USER.

Offline Pianoman

Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #43 on: March 23, 2019, 02:57:13 PM »
Hello Eileen.
Thank you for your counsel.
Changing to a desired drumkit will sometimes produce clicks, scrapes, etc, which will involve
going into  style editor to change the note numbers.

I will stick with Onacimus' conversions where the only thing I have to do is reintroduce the
DSP effects with a few taps on the insertion effects and system effects sections which I
then save to registrations.

There are many other issues that irk me, but quite a few have already been discussed
on this forum, so won't go into them now because this topic is about drums.

Two of them really stand out for me though.

I dearly miss the master volume slider for RH voices.
It was a time saver when playing live, as one only had to raise or lower the general volume
without disturbing the delicate balance between RH voices.

Second is that adjusting the Compressor button may nearly blow your ears off as well as those of
your audience, as 9 times out of 10 the compressor volume will shoot to maximum, thus
quadrupling the volume of the instrument.

When practising at home I would stop the style and adjust the Compression settings,
but when you have an audience dancing or listening,  one can't just stop the music and
start fiddling. It's also dangerous.

Luckily, all entertainers are required to pay a yearly civil responsibility insurance here, in
order  to perform.
In case of any adverse effects on audience members, whether it's tripping over cables,
having speakers fall on them, or having their eardrums shattered.

I hope that I can finish my gig season without gettting sued by somebody.

Apart from that, I'm still grappling with the keyboard and I'm sure that sooner or later
I will be able to get a decent sound out of this instrument.

Best Regards.
Abby.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2019, 03:01:09 PM by Pianoman »
 

Offline jwyvern

Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #44 on: March 23, 2019, 03:31:07 PM »
Abby,
You can go to Live Control in the main menu and assign one of the sliders (or knobs if preferred) to Keyboard Volume. It will then stay that way as long as you do nothing to change it. (It is generally best NOT to save registrations with Live Control ticked so they cannot interfere at some point with the settings).
If you don't see a Kbdvol function make sure the firmware version is the latest v. 1.3.

You may not be able to rely on getting a smooth transition using the screen icons to change things. (I can't, but being a home player I only have myself to worry about  :)))
An alternative is to touch the icon so it is activated then use the wheel or the up and down buttons to do a smooth change.

John

« Last Edit: March 23, 2019, 04:56:01 PM by jwyvern »
 

Offline EileenL

Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #45 on: March 23, 2019, 03:35:21 PM »
Hi Abby,
  Slider number 9  Kbdvol set on page 1 of Slider Assign will raise and lower volume leaving the balances where you saved them.

Offline Pianoman

Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #46 on: March 23, 2019, 06:19:26 PM »
Thank you Eileen and John.

I have found the Keyboard Volume slider.
I will try to place the keyboard volume in the Mic slider or Song slider, since
 I don't use neither Mic nor Songs.

Best Regards.
Abby.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2019, 06:21:25 PM by Pianoman »
 

Offline jwyvern

Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #47 on: March 23, 2019, 07:58:07 PM »
Thank you Eileen and John.

I have found the Keyboard Volume slider.
I will try to place the keyboard volume in the Mic slider or Song slider, since
 I don't use neither Mic nor Songs.

Best Regards.
Abby.

Unfortunately those positions are in the B slider group which is fixed, so you would need to select positions taken from slider groups 1 or 2.
Or all the knob groups are configurable if you want to consider changing one of those.
John
« Last Edit: March 23, 2019, 07:59:22 PM by jwyvern »
 

Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #48 on: March 24, 2019, 11:35:41 AM »
.... Ok, everyone can have his/her opinion. I respect.

It's the first time I read a thread in this forum, for which I totally disagree with the core initial idea.

As Soryt previously, I find the new REVO drums FAR FAR better than Tyros drums. For me, it's THE major improvement from Tyros 5.

My Music teacher is 75 years old, also a "gigman" for 50 years, and "first price for piano clarinet and saxophone of Paris Music Conservatory". He has a Tyros 5, uses it for his gigs.
I lent him my Genos during 1 week.

The first thing he told me : "the drums are far better".

For a non professional like me, who is not able to play naturally 300 good notes per minute, having such styles with heavy drums and heavy bass is great and goes towards modern music styles.


Regards
Soundphase.

beykock

  • Guest
Re: Drums, Drums, Drums.
« Reply #49 on: March 24, 2019, 04:02:14 PM »
Hi Francesco,

Very interesting comments.

Especially your message :
" Genos' drum kits are absolutely dry ".

This statement was new to me.
Thanks, Babette


« Last Edit: March 24, 2019, 04:06:54 PM by beykock »