Author Topic: Registration and DSP effects edit...  (Read 2981 times)

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Registration and DSP effects edit...
« on: February 19, 2019, 01:45:51 PM »
Hello everyone,

There is something strange happening when registration is saved with edited DSP effects, it does not memorize my edits. Is this a bug, or there is something else that should be done except memorizing registration after the tweaking is done?

Offline DerekA

Re: Registration and DSP effects edit...
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2019, 02:39:01 PM »
You've put this in the Genos board, so first just to check your using a Genos.

[because while Genos, PSR-S77n and PSR-S97n can do this - other models cannot]

Second, if you've assigned multiple DSP to the same part (e.g. R1) then only the settings for the first DSP on the part are saved.
Genos
 

Re: Registration and DSP effects edit...
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2019, 03:28:43 PM »
Thank you. Genos of course, S-975 as well.

Are you telling me that I can not make my own chain of DSP effects, I must use Yamaha's presets?

Offline DerekA

Re: Registration and DSP effects edit...
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2019, 03:45:39 PM »
Yup :)

Re: Registration and DSP effects edit...
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2019, 04:15:57 PM »
Thank you. There is a way, I just found out that it memorizes everything if you create preset before memorizing registration, then it works.
Well, to call this a solution I will need to get slapped in the face with a wet sock, but hey it is Yamaha we are talking about so I am happy.  :D

One more question: if I make two presets for two DSP effects chain (guitar amp and delay), and save it as registration, and then send that registration to you, will it work the same or it will ask for my presets?

Offline ckobu

Re: Registration and DSP effects edit...
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2019, 04:25:52 PM »
Yes, your preset will work on my Genos. After all, that is Yamaha.  ;)
Watch my video channel
 

Offline jwyvern

Re: Registration and DSP effects edit...
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2019, 04:32:46 PM »
Thank you. Genos of course, S-975 as well.

Are you telling me that I can not make my own chain of DSP effects, I must use Yamaha's presets?

Yes, or if you must include more than 1 edited dsp within the chain you could try first saving your edits in 1 or more of the 10 dsp User slots, then include these within your chain.
Although I have not yet had a need for assigning multiple edited dsp's to 1 voice I believe they should behave as "customised presets". Meaning the edits will be referenced by registrations even though the latter have no capability of saving the detailed parameters within the reg. files. I also don't know the maximum no. of DSP's in a chain that registrations can reference ::)
Ps, just seen your extra question. I am assuming where you say you make your own presets  you mean saving them to user slots as above. If so your registration won't work as you expect in someone else's Genos unless they
they also have saved the relevant dsp edits in their user slots,
 
John
« Last Edit: February 19, 2019, 04:41:00 PM by jwyvern »
 

Re: Registration and DSP effects edit...
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2019, 04:40:10 PM »
Yes, your preset will work on my Genos. After all, that is Yamaha.  ;)

Well, this is not what I am asking. Will registration saved with my presets work in your keyboard as I made it, without my preset file?  :D

Yes, or if you must include more than 1 edited dsp within the chain you could try first saving your edits in 1 or more of the 10 dsp User slots, then include these within your chain.
Although I have not yet had a need for assigning multiple edited dsp's to 1 voice I believe they should behave as "customised presets". Meaning the edits will be referenced by registrations even though the latter have no capability of saving the detailed parameters within the reg. files. I also don't know the maximum no. of DSP's in a chain that registrations can reference ::)
Ps, just seen your extra question. I am assuming where you say you make your own presets  you mean saving them to user slots as above. If so your registration won't work as you expect in someone else's Genos unless they
they also have saved the relevant dsp edits in their user slots,
 
John

There is many cases where you need more than one DSP effect, for example distortion solo guitar, first in chain is compressor, then amp simulation, then parametric EQ because those amp simulations are not the smoothest, and then delay. Sometimes before delay I use modulation effects, but in most cases 4 DSP effects for solo guitar is enough.
This is somewhat strange, registrations memorize all kind of things, but no DSP effect settings. It is not very convenient when registration needs to be shared, or sent to someone, then it will not work the same without presets. And when it comes to presets, even if I include presets loading my file will overwrite the existing ones, so...  :)
« Last Edit: February 19, 2019, 04:46:18 PM by alfaholic »
 

Offline jwyvern

Re: Registration and DSP effects edit...
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2019, 04:43:23 PM »
Well, this is not what I am asking. Will registration saved with my presets work in your keyboard as I made it, without my preset file?  :D


As I said as a PS in my previous post:
just seen your extra question. I am assuming where you say you make your own presets  you mean saving them to user slots as above. If so your registration won't work as you expect in someone else's Genos unless they also have saved the relevant dsp edits in their user slots,
Or they could load a User Effects File which you would need to supply

John
« Last Edit: February 19, 2019, 04:47:53 PM by jwyvern »
 

Re: Registration and DSP effects edit...
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2019, 04:47:37 PM »
Well, this is unfortunate.  :) Thanks...

Offline ckobu

Re: Registration and DSP effects edit...
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2019, 04:48:20 PM »
I'm almost sure it will work without presets. At least that was the case with all Tyros models.
Watch my video channel
 

Re: Registration and DSP effects edit...
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2019, 04:52:01 PM »
I'm almost sure it will work without presets. At least that was the case with all Tyros models.

Thanks. I just tested this, it does not work without presets on Genos and PSR S-970. As for Tyros 2-4, I believe this worked without presets, but I can not confirm this now.
Without user preset it gets back to the original preset I used as a starting point.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2019, 04:54:59 PM by alfaholic »
 

Offline jwyvern

Re: Registration and DSP effects edit...
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2019, 04:58:31 PM »
Well, this is unfortunate.  :) Thanks...

It is possible you may be able to use one of the multi FX DSP'S in  the Distortion group (edited) and get the effects you require without having to use to use individual edited chains?

John
« Last Edit: February 19, 2019, 04:59:45 PM by jwyvern »
 

Re: Registration and DSP effects edit...
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2019, 06:22:39 PM »
I believe this will solve the problem. I will test it now...

I am thinking about Genos and all those DSP effects, there is no logic in having so many effects if you are not able to:

1. Tweak and edit them all at the same time without turning them off to see the previous ones
2. Memorize all your edits with registration memory

Edit: Those Multi FX are little bit of everything, but nothing really. Yes, there is distortion, compressor, EQ, modulation FX included, but there is almost no tweaking, again some Yamaha's presets. It is all in one place so it may be useful sometimes.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2019, 06:51:37 PM by alfaholic »
 

Offline BenoitM

Re: Registration and DSP effects edit...
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2019, 10:44:16 AM »
Hi,

I feel your pain, I have the same problem concerning multiple tweaked DSPs into a Registration…  (see: https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,47242.0.html )

In fact, there's several thread on this forum related to this problem (see also : https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,48122.0.html ) , but there's no 'correct' solution to this problem…

It's really an annoying thing, I consider it a major bug on the Genos, because Registration are meant to save everything in one place, but this is not the case when we assign multiple tweaked dsps on one voice...

Using the 10 custom DSPs slots is a very limited workaround, and unfortunately your can't share your registration without your custom DSPs settings… Basically, the Registration creates a 'link' to the custom DSP settings, but it does not store the details of the DSP parameters, hence the bug… Registration seems to be able to store only one of the DSPs parameters - the last edited one in my tests - that's why I classified this as a Bug. Other people don't agree with that and think that one DSP per voice should be enough for everyone ('640Kb should be enough for everyone' one said Bill Gates in the DOS era of computing , well....  :o)

My hopes for a new Firmware correcting this issue (and many others) is slowly vanishing, as Yamaha doesn't seems to listen to the 'Arranger Department'  customers … They should take the Synth Dept as an example (MODX/Montage users got major firmware update and even new piano sound…).


Offline Dromeus

Re: Registration and DSP effects edit...
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2019, 12:19:05 PM »
there is no logic in having so many effects if you are not able to:

1. Tweak and edit them all at the same time without turning them off to see the previous ones
2. Memorize all your edits with registration memory

I couldn't agree more. This is a royal pain in the a** that annoyed since the days I used my first Tyros. It's a bummer that this was not improved for the Genos and I loose hope that it will be fixed some day.
Regards, Michael
 

Offline pjd

Re: Registration and DSP effects edit...
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2019, 02:23:43 PM »
Yamaha tried to shoehorn 28 DSP units into a legacy voice/effects architecture which assumed only a few effect units (i.e., XG). That's why parameter storage was foisted off on the 10 USER effect storage locations. Since XG doesn't support insert effect chaining, we don't get insert effect chaining.

They really need to treat DSP effects as first class user (and storage) objects. The new objects should handle chaining as well as store every parameter for every effect block if necessary. They cannot do this practically by storing all parameters in a Registration. (Registrations would become quite large and most of the data would be zero/unused.)

The DSP parameters need to be stored in the file system as its own file type/format.

Just a few thoughts -- pj
 
« Last Edit: February 20, 2019, 02:24:56 PM by pjd »
 

Offline DerekA

Re: Registration and DSP effects edit...
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2019, 02:39:11 PM »
At the very least they could have removed the limit of 10 user effects! Surely that's not hardcoded everywhere ...

Offline keynote

Re: Registration and DSP effects edit...
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2019, 02:42:49 PM »


My hopes for a new Firmware correcting this issue (and many others) is slowly vanishing, as Yamaha doesn't seems to listen to the 'Arranger Department'  customers … They should take the Synth Dept as an example (MODX/Montage users got major firmware update and even new piano sound…).

I find it intriguing that there are many very talented and detail oriented arranger keyboard players with every bit as much knowledge into the intricate workings of arranger keyboards as do those people who own a Montage or a MODX. And yet Yamaha seems to divert almost all of its attention to their so-called "professional" line of keyboards. I really believe the main reason Yamaha decides to do this is because the Montage and to a lesser extent the MODX are considered professional instruments by the music industry and they are oftentimes played by professional musicians and by well known bands. You get to see the Montage and MODX on stage in a live setting quite often whereas you don't see the Genos and other arranger keyboards in the same type of setting. Since the Genos and other arranger keyboards are relegated to mostly part-time gigging musicians and home hobbyists Yamaha apparently feels no compulsion or need to "actively" support the Genos or their arranger line in general with additional OS updates. The Genos and other arranger keyboards are mostly 'out of sight out of mind' to a large extent so therefore Yamaha basically fixes the most common bugs and leaves the delicacies of OS feature enhancements and other improvements to the so-called "professional" line of keyboards i.e. the Montage and to a lesser extent the MODX.

The Montage and the MODX, to a lesser degree, are in many cases being played by well known musicians in front of thousands of people and on live TV where the Yamaha brand is scrutinized by the music industry and by the general public. If professional musicians feel Yamaha is not "actively" supporting a certain line of products, in this case their Synth line, there is the possibility that those every same musicians might instead choose another brand of keyboard product(s) from a different company - who do actively support their own products. So if you want future updates your only choice apparently is to buy a Montage or a MODX - in addition to the Genos you already purchased. ;) Yamaha is pretty sneaky huh. It's called marketing and Yamaha does it extremely well. We can't force their hand and our pleas don't seem to help either. They may surprise us but don't hold your breath. Montage or MODX anyone?  ;D

Mike   

Re: Registration and DSP effects edit...
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2019, 05:02:04 PM »
As for something being professional or not, here where I am from (also in many other parts of the planet) many people use their arrangers professionally and they make some serious money, which is the definition of being professional. Many of them use less expensive keyboards than Genos, Tyros, or even PSR. I know I use cheap and brilliant E-A7 among many other keyboards for professional work, also I remember using that garbage of a Korg PA-50 for one contract on board of a cruise ship, very successfully, and very professionally. So I do not believe Yamaha people think their arrangers are not for professionals, first of all it is very subjective, also they did some outstanding work when it comes to sampling and creating styles for their arrangers I doubt it is all in vain. After all, it is not important if you use Genos professionally or not, you paid for a FLAGSHIP (as they call it) arranger, so gentlemen give us what we paid for.

The major reason behind this asinine OS solutions and limitation, in my opinion is simply the fact that they sell packs, and this brings them some serious amount of money. Also, most Yamaha users do not use anything else than factory stuff, they in most cases do not create styles or sounds, even less do some creative work for arrangers and that is why they are satisfied with their keyboards, even more they look at you with eyes wide open wondering why do you need DSP effects in Genos. Or registrations for example. I found here some people who never used registrations, only Yamaha's OTS. Very difficult to accept as a fact...
And it is not illogical because Yamaha styles and sounds are great really. Not that they can not be better, oh they can, but comparing out of the box Yamaha with Korg is simply laughable. Roland do not have some serious arranger now, so I will not compare it.

I work with all brands for many years, Yamaha as well but now I have plan to work more for Yamaha which I did not want earlier because I knew it is very closed system with so many limitations. Now I find new problem every day, but again I am thinking it is maybe just me used to great and powerful Korg and Roland editing, maybe Yamaha is OK just I need to reset my brain. Unfortunately this is not true, Yamaha really has very strange solutions and limitations.
Someone will say, OK I do not want to make anything just want to play, and in this case it is much better but still, there is no way to lock BALANCE slider so when you change registration balance gets back to its memorized location. So if I need in club A for STYLE to be 110, but in club B I want STYLE to be 95 there is no way to do it.
Then all those sliders and knobs, they did not use motorized sliders, also they used knobs with hard ends, so when you leave the knob or the slider to some position, change registration and touch knob that was left at 98% position, everything goes BOOM. And then there is PSR with their two LIVE CONTROL knobs to regulate balance, so you touch them they reset everything to 100. I believe Yamaha employed some crazy guy to make this, there is no other explanation.

Oh, and what about that YEM problem when you import more than one protected pack from the same vendor, the keyboard mixes all samples so when you play drums you hear bass guitar, and vice versa? :) I tried to contact them about this multiple times, but still nothing two years after. And the list just goes on, and on... :)
« Last Edit: February 20, 2019, 05:33:53 PM by alfaholic »
 

Offline EileenL

Re: Registration and DSP effects edit...
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2019, 05:31:16 PM »
I have never had a problem with importing Yamaha packs into the YEM and then into the keyboard and I load quite a few in as well as third party ones. They all work as they should.

Re: Registration and DSP effects edit...
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2019, 05:35:04 PM »
I can create two protected packs for you to import, the keyboard will mix everything.  ;)

Offline panos

Re: Registration and DSP effects edit...
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2019, 11:07:52 PM »
My friend there may be a simple reason why not all people prefer to use registrations rather than just OTS.

Make the 4 parts (or more if you wish) of the style as you wish, choose voices for the OTS, assign up to 4 different multipads to the OTS voices, mix and equalize everything and save the song style without worrying if something  won't be there if you call up the style in the future (except if you move the multipads or delete a pack).
Probably for a 3-4 minutes song of any genre of music these are enough.
There are original songs with less parts of arrangement, usually with just one (human)voice as a singer and some musical instruments playing the melody lines and riffs when the singer is not singing.

With registrations you have to be really careful what exactly to save, what file(style,voice etc) not to move to a different folder in the future, etc.
And if you are not gigging you don't have to worry about the time you spend to enter your style folders to call up the next song you feel like playing at the moment.

Just some thoughts why people may use keyboard's features differently and not to the maximum efficient way. ;)
« Last Edit: February 20, 2019, 11:08:55 PM by panos »
 

Re: Registration and DSP effects edit...
« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2019, 07:40:38 AM »
My friend there may be a simple reason why not all people prefer to use registrations rather than just OTS...

If you are not gigging, then none of this is important. :) What I meant is there is people who do not create anything, they only use factory OTS and just play. If you prepare your keyboard, there is no difference which method you use.

I understand your logic, I am looking in the same direction now while trying to decide which route to choose, whether to use registrations to call the whole setup for a song, or to save each new song as a new style and rename it. In both cases I will have 1 or 2 registration banks only for my solo instruments already prepared with effects and everything, with freeze turned on so they do not to change the style, or simply saved to change only voices.
Both setups are flawed. If I use registrations to call up the songs then I can not lock BALANCE at the beginning of the gig, registrations will reset to the saved value every time I change to a new one. The other method with saving the styles as prepared songs, well this is also problematic because Yamaha do not remember variation in which the style is saved, so there is no way to start one style with variation 3, and another in variation 2.

I need my workflow to be as efficient as possible because when playing live there is not much time to play around with Yamaha's logic, especially when you go from song to song without stopping.

Offline EileenL

Re: Registration and DSP effects edit...
« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2019, 11:32:50 AM »
When I was gigging I went from song to song with no volume problems because I made sure my registrations were set to what I wanted. Never needed to use the freeze button. Just adjusted the EQ a little to suit the venue.

Re: Registration and DSP effects edit...
« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2019, 06:39:27 PM »
In most cases this is my experience as well, however I feel uncomfortable without any option to tweak my balance if I need something different. Sometimes the balance can shift depending of the PA system, most often we use 18 inch woofers with line-array system, but sometimes there is only plastic fantastic 15 inch speakers and then my right is too loud.
Other than that I need to set over 100 registrations at home and then go to play just to be sure my balance is set right, or if it is not I need to redo everything again. This is very simple to fix, Yamaha just need to include System level lock for balance slider, as they already have for vocal processor, scale, and few more.

Offline ckobu

Re: Registration and DSP effects edit...
« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2019, 11:21:49 PM »
Look at my video I just made. Perhaps someone solves the dilemmas that are related to DSP effects.  ;)

https://youtu.be/KqBuUkCz7Bk
Watch my video channel
 

Offline panos

Re: Registration and DSP effects edit...
« Reply #27 on: February 22, 2019, 01:12:11 AM »
Alfaholic  what do you mean when you are saying that the keyboard won't remember what variation to start?
You mean at a Geno's playlist?
Sorry for asking I just didn't get that part and I am curious.
It's always good to learn how people prepare their songs to play live and to find them easilly.

Re: Registration and DSP effects edit...
« Reply #28 on: February 22, 2019, 10:43:38 AM »
Yamaha does not remember in which variation you save the style. For example, you enter Style Creator and save the style while in Main C, that style will not remember to start with Main C when you select it manually from Expansion/User. This does not work with Roland either, but Korg remembers it so when you load the style manually from user it will automatically change to Main 3/Variation 3 (or the one you you were in while saving the style).
This is very useful if you want to save each style as a separate song with its OTS settings, and use registrations only for solo instruments. This way you can have one style saved multiple times with different names, with each version having different setup, mix, tempo, OTS, and starting variation. Unfortunately it does not work. :)

Offline DerekA

Re: Registration and DSP effects edit...
« Reply #29 on: February 22, 2019, 11:20:01 AM »
The Yamaha way lets you use registrations to store different setup, mix, tempo and starting variation. Furthermore, a registration file is far smaller that a full style file so you can have thousands at your fingertips.
Genos
 

Re: Registration and DSP effects edit...
« Reply #30 on: February 22, 2019, 12:43:31 PM »
Registrations can not store settings for all DSP effects, also it is not possible to have style/song/right balance separated from registration, so they are not perfect and this is why I am looking at some other ways to use the keyboard more efficiently.
To put things into perspective, all brands have their registrations it is not Yamaha's invention, just they are called User Programs on Roland, and Performances (Pa3X and older) or Keyboard Set (Pa4X generation), and all do basically the same thing, except both User Programs and Performances/Keyboard Set do not have limitations I mentioned earlier. Both Korg and Roland store all settings in their registration, all DSP tweaks, they both have balance on a level independent from the registration, and in registration as well so you can choose. It will be better for Yamaha to make everything work as it should then making registration files small in size, who cares about that in 2019.
As for the size of style files, you can have millions of styles located on USB drive, the size is simply irrelevant these days.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2019, 12:50:24 PM by alfaholic »
 

Offline panos

Re: Registration and DSP effects edit...
« Reply #31 on: February 22, 2019, 01:05:22 PM »
Thanks for the explanation my friend.
I didn't know that feature of other brands with the styles and the"start" variation. :)