Topic: You need to watch this demo

[Yinon]

All,

Please watch this demo and see what Genos can do.
(Abby - This one may show you some new tricks)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_QNSR5PWJU

Cheers!

[soryt]

terrible... 

S

[DrakeM]

Watching him play and sing the song at about 18:50, his right hand is not playing or moving much while he is singing. That is the sort thing I like to observe with the pros when the style is set up perfect for the song.

I would like to hear him explain if he actually set up all the styles he is playing these snips of songs or is he just using onboard styles as is. Which tells me he is only playing the styles the way Yamaha instead them to be used ... song wise. I think that is what he is doing as he only played one song all the way through from beginning to end.

Most nearly all the Yamaha styles aren't created to play any song all the way through, all but a handful need a lot of editing and arranging to them to really sound like an actual song arrangement. 

[mikf]

You can play over an onboard style with both hands and create a great arrangement without messing with the style. This is especially true when accompanying a vocal because you dont have to play the melody. So you have ten fingers to add notes, passing chords, extended chords and riffs to the style completely customizing it without ever touching the actual style.
Mike

[Bachus]

The average age at the demo was 60+
Manny was not understood by many of the visitors..

Personally, i think he is not succeeding at what Yamaha wants him to do
-sell Genos to the Younger musicians (as they dont visit these events, nor have the money to pay for a genos)
-sell Genos to the older musicians (as they have different taste for music)

But thats from my  buiseness view


I personally like what he is trying to show...
But then, i am not the average Joe Genos owner..

[ugawoga]

Hi

What a terrible singer. Like a cat with it's tail pulled!! .     My voice --" I would not go there"!! "I'm Fog horn leg horn"!!
It is typical of today's conveyor belt music and reality show Eurovision rainbow tack. Schlager just as bad!!
The Genos can do wonders and can do much better. So can Stevie Wonder!!

[KeyboardByBiggs]

What's he got going on with the mounting system for the iPad and whatever else that is on his left?

[Roland]

Adding to Mike's comment: Sadi is using a Karaoke playback and had sync'd the style to it. Left hand plays bass. He just wanted to show how versatile you can use the Genos. And yes, at most arranger events in Germany (and the UK), you will see older folks - and on rare occasion there are also some young folks. Sadi doesn't just play repertoires of the "yesteryears" but also EDM and some pretty funky and fun stuff. He is in fact quite talented and young as well as older folks really enjoy his performances. Yes for sure - missed a few pitches when singing - not sure why he didn't use more of the VH features - but I bet Lanze and Sadi knew exactly what it is they wanted to bring across to the audience :-)

Cheers, Roland

[panos]

The style of the song that Drake was talking about.
https://eu.yamahamusicsoft.com/style-files/lucky-disco-5

If we consider that a preset style usually is made for (or by) a specific song, then this style it will be perfect just for this song (and it's.... imitations)
For playing another song it will be less perfect but yet the Assembly function is always there for everyone to use it like Drake and many others do.

One thing that puzzles me is that 6 out of 10 style buttons are for beginning and ending a song and 4/10 for playing the song. hm.....
Anyway,at least 32 bars are enough to use another 4 parts for playing music   

The guy is just fine.
But why do they play american kind of music in Germany?

[Bachus]

What's he got going on with the mounting system for the iPad and whatever else that is on his left?

Its a custom made construction, and the ipad stand itself are K&M
I really like this idea...

[bmarcill]

   hello


  here  lucky disco


  ben

[attachment deleted by admin]

[KeyboardByBiggs]

Its a custom made construction, and the ipad stand itself are K&M
I really like this idea...

Doesn't it look to you like he has a flat bar attached to the Genos that runs all the way across the back?

[Yinon]

I loved the demo.
It's funky and groovy and he is very talented.

I actually picked up the idea of the bass on the lest hand... it's really nice.

I agree with the question marks on the ipads ...

Why so many?
One for lyrics - okay.
One to enhance the Genos screen - good.

What's the third one for?

Why does he need the metal bar added? He can simple us the Ipad holders individually ...

[KeyboardByBiggs]

Why does he need the metal bar added? He can simple us the Ipad holders individually ...

I'm guessing because there are only two mounting points on the Genos and the bar extends that to many mounting points along its length.

[mikf]

I listened to the demo and thought it was quite well done. He demonstrated a wide range of the stuff the majority people want to play with an arranger, including several old standards that were ideal for the older audience. And given his job is mainly to demo the sound and functionality of the keyboard, his vocals were more than acceptable. I think most of us would be happy to sing that well.
You never got to see his hands, but it seemed to me that most of the time he was driving the style conventionally through chords so not sure where this left hand bass idea is coming from. I would have assumed he had the mode set to fingered on bass or one of the other settings which lets you drive the bass line.  Having said that, I am sure he was tapping into a wider range of functionality than many of us would typically use, but them that is his job.
Re comments about styles - surely the pre sets are largely meant to be generic accompaniments for a wide range of songs in that particular style rather than for a specific song ...hence why they were called  ‘styles’.
Mike

[Bachus]

Doesn't it look to you like he has a flat bar attached to the Genos that runs all the way across the back?

Yes it does..

I asked the organizer of this demo in a german facebook genos group, he said it was custom made

[panos]

Well most styles I believe they are not so generic.
Hard to imagine that you can create a great style without having a specific song in your head.
It would be like telling a symphony orchestra to play random harmonies and tell each organ when it is his part to play,without the existence of a composition.

This is a preset Genos folder.The 3rd intro usually reveals better which song had in mind the stylemaker although some you can identify them from the first chord.Look at the list in the comments.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMe93grtg0Q&t=5499s

For that kind of music (Dicso-Dance etc) the orchestration of a style is important because there are songs famous for their synthesizer sounds.

Just an example:
The song released unsuccessfully 2 times in different versions in 1982 and 1984 until it will became a hit in 1985 with the use of the iconic bass line and a famous riff from the Yamaha DX7.If you are listening to this kind of music you can recognize the song just from the drum beat.

1982 group's original version
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rc6MumuychA
1984 Tony Mansfield's version (producer)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keOvm0wl1qI
1985 Alan Turney's version (producer)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djV11Xbc914

That's how important I believe are the styles and the sounds we use for making a song sound as good as possible with an arranger keyboard.

The demonstrator doesn't use the AI finger mode that's for sure and this kind of singing by men in high notes it's kind of popular these days.I guess they are missing Prince and Michael Jackson or something.

[mikf]

Panos- I think we just have to agree to disagree. I believe that the best and most useful styles are very generic. To the point where it's possible to play many different songs with the same style. Even to play songs in a major key, and songs in a minor key and at very different tempo, and it will work with a well made style. A lot of the pre set styles on Yamahas are at this level.
Your analogy about a symphony orchestra is not what is happening with a style. A closer analogy is the small combo where the rhythm section is providing the background against which you lay down your leads, vocals and phrases. This is how I see the main body of a style. Bands behave like this all the time, no formal arrangement. They decide on a playing style like a bossa, blues, rock, swing etc, set a tempo, decide on a key and go.
Intros and endings are different -  they are not versatile at all because they are like recordings and screw up if you try to play along with them.
Mike

[Dromeus]

One thing that puzzles me is that 6 out of 10 style buttons are for beginning and ending a song and 4/10 for playing the song. hm.....
Anyway,at least 32 bars are enough to use another 4 parts for playing music   

I think we have 11 Style Variation buttons.
2 of them for count-in and immediate ending.
4 of them for extended intros/endings.
The 4 Main Variations also deliver Fill-Ins (depending on the timing delivers simple drum fill-in or variation on up to 6 parts). Together with the Break button, you have 9 "elements" at your disposal to construct your song.

BTW, intros/ending may also be well suited for bridges or soloing, when style parts are appropriatly muted (PHR1 and/or PHR2 in most cases). In fact, I never fire intros/endings without muting parts. I don't like listen to my arranger without doin' somethin' useful (well in a musical sense  )

[Pianoman]

All,

Please watch this demo and see what Genos can do.
(Abby - This one may show you some new tricks)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_QNSR5PWJU

Cheers!

Hello Yinon.

I'm not sure one can teach an old dog new tricks, but thanks, you are a good
man for thinking of me.
Below is a song that I did about a year ago that is the same as the intro song
on this video.

It was a quick sit and play recording on my T3, done without the full backing
 of Yamaha's support team.

My belief as to the use of arrangers is to try and use the minimum possible
in everything. Effects, backing accompaniment etc.

The styles are already too busy as it is, in my opinion.

Many in the music world, including audiences and non arranger playing
musicians, do not have a very high opinion regarding arranger players.

I went to a live music venue last winter to ask if I could do a gig there.
They said that they don't want "Canned" music there, even though they
have a DJ on twice a week.

The contradiction seemed to have escaped them somehow.

I try my best to dispel people's negative views about arrangers and arranger
players.

The trick, for me, is to chop away as much as possible all the fluff that
comes with styles and leave everything as raw as possible.

I also sing directly into my PA System and avoid singing through the keyboard.

I have never used Midi Files, Karaoke Files, Mp3 Files, Vocal Harmony, iPads, Laptops
etc.

I also avoid incorporating the choir voices like Scat voices and all the
"Hey, Who Are You, Bada Dee, Bada Daa"  goodies whenever possible.

It's to reduce as much as possible the notion that there's trickery involved, which
in a way there is.

You hold down a chord and voices are whooping, trumpets are blaring, strings
are playing, violins are bowing etc.

That may be great for home playing to impress friends and perhaps in a studio,
but for live playing I keep the use of my arranger to an absolute minimum.

I invite people to sit as close as possible to me, so that they can actually see me
hammering away at the piano all night, and dispel some of their doubts.

Half the time during gigs I try not to use my arranger keyboard at all anyway.


https://app.box.com/s/66qeaq1dog85vyp5luds878sj11hfe92


Best Regards,
Abby.

[Dromeus]

I'm not sure one can teach an old dog new tricks

I like this one:

"Auch eine alte Kuh,
Lernt immer noch dazu."

Freely: Even an old cow may learn something new.

 

[Pianoman]

I like this one:

"Auch eine alte Kuh,
Lernt immer noch dazu."

Freely: Even an old cow may learn something new.

 

Hallo Dromeus.

Ich sehe nichts nueus in den video für mich, und bin sehr zufrieden mit was Ich weiß.
Wie ich erklärt habe, in generell bin Ich ein minimalist und nütze mein Keyboard sehr
wenig, wenn es kein andere wahl gibt.

Grüße.
Abby.

[travlin-easy]

Abby and others, it has always been difficult to overcome the public's impression of arranger keyboards being nothing more than a karaoke machine. They rarely even notice that your hands are playing on those black and white keys, which is obvious when someone comes up and begins a conversation while you are in the middle of playing and singing a song. This has happened to me hundreds of times over the past 30 years of being on stage as a full-time entertainer/musician.

One thing I tended to do was to keep the style as simplistic as possible, mostly playing in the lower variations, playing my own intros or using the first, tap intro, playing my own endings or using the simple ending. These things do make a difference. Most of the time, less is the best.

Now, I am not a good musician by any stretch of the imagination. I cannot read music very well, and definitely cannot make those dots transmit to my fingers in an orderly and timely manner. Consequently, I rely heavily on my vocals, which is what most audiences came to hear. To me, and most of my audiences, 4 hours of instrumentals would put them to sleep. However, 4 hours of great vocals put them on the dance floor during the entire time.

An old friend, and great entertainer once said to me, never perform a song you cannot dance to - he nailed it. Even if the crowd didn't consist of many dancers, those songs kept their  toes tapping  and they often sang along with you.

I always tried to make sure the audience could see my hands on those keys, and when I was on a 4-foot-high stage, I often turned my rig sideways so they could see my hands on those keys, similar to what many piano players did, Liberace, Jerry Lee Lewis, etc... This can make a huge difference to the audience's perception of whether or not you are really playing, or just singing to canned music.

All the best,

Gary

[voodoo]

All,

Please watch this demo and see what Genos can do.
(Abby - This one may show you some new tricks)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_QNSR5PWJU

Cheers!

Hi all,

I have been there in Erfurt and I have seen Sadi giving this performance. I had two impressions:

* Sadi IS a really good piano player, using both hands, for example for playing the bass line himself with the left hand.

* But as many other arranger demonstrators, he is using many things that have been prepared before, like midis, audios, multipads etc. But, artists like him have prepared this material themselves. So it is his own product of art.


So it is always very impressing, but always I think, much of the performance is playback. Preparing impressive presentations is also a kind of art, but it is different from sitting just at a grand piano and playing all live.

Uli

[panos]

Dromeus that's why I said at least they are 32 bars long to use them 
I usually just delete the pre-recorded unwanted melodies and use them as extra parts too.
Anyway for more parts we can also have Regs so it's ok 

"Canned" music?
I guess similar phrases were used for the first synthesizer players 60 years ago.
Or maybe similar kind of words for the first electric guitar players earlier?

[pjd]

An old friend, and great entertainer once said to me, never perform a song you cannot dance to - he nailed it. Even if the crowd didn't consist of many dancers, those songs kept their  toes tapping  and they often sang along with you.

Amen! -- pj

[Yinon]

I'm not sure one can teach an old dog new tricks, but thanks, you are a good
man for thinking of me.

Thanks Abby, 
I was referring to the playing style ...
Please note he is playing like a piano player.

I saw on videos you are playing chords with your left hand.

The guy on the demos is using the full keyboard to detect the cord.
(I do this too ...)

The new trick is set the "lower" voice to "bass" sound and thus making the bass much more dynamic.
(Before seeing this, I used to keep "lower" disabled" and simply play the piano or ep cross the keys)
You can then disable the bass or if it is generic enough on the style, keep it and add the feel to it manually.

Try it a little and see if you like it.

Thanks

[Al Ram]

Its a custom made construction, and the ipad stand itself are K&M
I really like this idea...

The iPad on his right does not look like it can go portrait  . . . the space between the ipad and the keyboard is too short for portrait . . . i think

Performance wise, ok but not impressive . . . nothing really new here .. . . i think.

thanks

[mikf]

Canned music was never used to describe synth playing or guitar playing because everything you heard was being played, and to be out playing in public demanded a certain level of ability. It is used for arrangers because people know that much of what you hear is not being played by the arranger player. But I don't think the keyboard is to blame for the bad press. It's the players. The advantage of the arranger is that they make it possible for people with very limited ability or musical flair to knock out a recognizable tune. The disadvantage of an arranger is that too many people with very limited ability or musical flair are out playing them in public.
The public knows what it likes.

Mike

[Pianoman]

Thanks Abby, 
I was referring to the playing style ...
Please note he is playing like a piano player.

I saw on videos you are playing chords with your left hand.

The guy on the demos is using the full keyboard to detect the cord.
(I do this too ...)

The new trick is set the "lower" voice to "bass" sound and thus making the bass much more dynamic.
(Before seeing this, I used to keep "lower" disabled" and simply play the piano or ep cross the keys)
You can then disable the bass or if it is generic enough on the style, keep it and add the feel to it manually.

Try it a little and see if you like it.

Thanks

Hello Yinon.

Yes,it is a good idea, but keep in mind that I use my other hand for the piano,
and very often both hands.

In fact, as I mentioned above, half of the time when gigging I usually just play
the piano, especially on ballads, or only engaging the keyboard halfway through the
song.

The videos that I posted were the only ones that I had available to me.
They were recorded at a point in the evening when things were heating up
and I needed to use the arranger for the Rock stuff.

A friend of mine who is a camera buff came and recorded me twice.
It is something that he enjoys doing.

He unfortunately has eloped to the Canary Islands and left his wife and son here.
Such is the power of love.

Best Regards,
Abby.

[Yinon]

Hi Abby,

Just for test - try this (at home).
Have only the Genos played.
Put the piano away for this test 

On the Genos - Split it 3 times -
1. Lower - Bass sound (or deactivate and use the Piano bass).
2. RH1 - The piano you like the most (C7?) - Vol 100
3 RH2 - Pad -(I like Dark Pad). - Vol 70
4. RH3 - Horns/Sax (which ever you need for the song).

Please remember to split RH3 to the upper octaves (and you can individually drop an octave or two for the RH3).

Pick a style.
Play Piano as you play it on the MP11. (I know the action is different and way too light but this can be resolved later with MIDI connection to the MP11).

Please don't for get to change the chord recognition algorithm to full keyboard. :-)

Normally I would not recommend this to the folks playing arrangers as the are very used to play chords on the left hand.
Piano players on the other hand, are playing mostly bass or thin chords on their left.

I would love to hear your experience. 

[mikf]

A nice set up for piano players is to midi the piano to the Genos then play piano normally using the full piano setting, preferably AI full. It then drives the accompaniment - when desired - on the Genos. Sitting above the piano for easy access to controls,  and properly set up , the Genos remains available for the full range of lead voices. I have a couple of CVPs now, but before this I had a PSR and digital piano set up this way. The CVP is really just a non portable but tidier and better looking version of this.
The style will be playing bass and so strictly speaking there is no need to play a bass line, but I find for some songs the doubling up of the piano bass and style bass produces tremendous presence to the music.
I agree with Abby that styles should mostly be kept simple, because you will be playing the riffs and fills, so you don’t want them fighting one another, and anyway this is much better than the repeating set patterns on the style. You are playing what you need to customize your performance and the style is just your rhythm section.
Playing this way no one will ever accuse you of being the cheating gourmet chef who serves everything from a can!
Mike

[panos]

A guitarist's right hand is playing chords and his left hand is playing riffs,melodies etc.
A keyboardist's left hand is playing chords and the right hand is playing melodies,riffs etc.
The second one is canned music.
Ok I got it!!
I will disable the styles from playing along
If i have chosen to play a guitar I would still played as badly as with my keyboard so beware!!

Abby is singing,is playing the piano,is playing riffs and improvisations with the styles and all in a nice way,but still is canned music? 
piff....what else a man alone can play?
hm...play the bass with your left hand while you are singing and playing the piano with the right hand after you have changed the riffs you were playing with the guitar sound, maybe buying a violin, bring a saxophone too...
Take a look at the voice menu for the rest of the organs you may need.
Better sell your car and buy a truck.You will need it.
And don't forget to sing songs that require a woman's voice.
Listening to your voice that's the hardest part I believe

[Yinon]

And don't forget to sing songs that require a woman's voice.
Listening to your voice that's the hardest part I believe

Funny Panos ... 
Ironically - There is a Genos male -> female voice converter.
Not sure if you tried it ... not too bad ....

It's always funny to see the audience face when they see a man singing with a nice female vocal ....

 

[Toril S]

Do I have this on Tyros/PSR too? I need to startle my audience

[Yinon]

Do I have this on Tyros/PSR too? I need to startle my audience

Yes - Tyros 5 has a female to male voice converter. (and male to female too)

 

[Al Ram]

A guitarist's right hand is playing chords and his left hand is playing riffs,melodies etc.

is this guitarist a lefty ? 

Thanks

[Kaarlo von Freymann]

Hi all,

.... But as many other arranger demonstrators, he is using many things that have been prepared before, like midis, audios, multipads etc. But, artists like him have prepared this material themselves. So it is his own product of art.

So it is always very impressing, but always I think, much of the performance is playback. Preparing impressive presentations is also a kind of art, but it is different from sitting just at a grand piano and playing all live.

Uli

Thanks, you could not have said it better

Cheers

Kaarlo

[Kaarlo von Freymann]

Hello Yinon.

....Below is a song that I did about a year ago that is the same as the intro songon this video. .....My belief as to the use of arrangers is to try and use the minimum possible in everything. Effects, backing accompaniment etc......The styles are already too busy as it is, in my opinion. ....The trick, for me, is to chop away as much as possible all the fluff that comes with styles and leave everything as raw as possible....I also avoid incorporating the choir voices  like Scat voices and all the "Hey, Who Are You, Bada Dee, Bada Daa"  goodies  (atrocities   )whenever possible. ... to reduce as much as possible the notion that there's trickery involved, which in a way there is. ....You hold down a chord and voices are whooping, trumpets are blaring, strings are playing, violins are bowing etc.....That may be great for home playing to impress friends and perhaps in a studio,  but for live playing I keep the use of my arranger to an absolute minimum.

 
https://app.box.com/s/66qeaq1dog85vyp5luds878sj11hfe92


Best Regards,
Abby.

Abby, as always I agree with you. BTW  when you use the sax voice one can hear from your phrazing  you are a saxophone player.  Hope I will remember to  donate the  VCA/VCF  breath controller I built long ago  to you when I rewrite my will  . I know of no former sax player like you  and and me playing keybord.  (The breath controller still works perfectly and I use it on every gig) To non-saxplayers it is worthless, phrazing and intonation are a forgotten art, Earl Bostic is  like so may others.

Cheers

Kaarlo

As it is summer even in Finland now Abby, here is my amteurish rendering of "Summertime"

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