Topic: USB 2 versus USB 3

[Lee Batchelor]

Hi team,

I've been told the Genos can read either USB 2 or 3. Is the USB 3 much faster on a Genos? If so, I'll invest in one. If not, I won't waste my money. I find the USB 2 very slow. It keeps flashing long after its files are displayed on the Genos. I don't know why. Thanks.

[reya]

Genos itself only has USB 2.0 ports. So it is not capable of the higher transfer rates offered by USB 3.0.
So Genos will accept (compatible) USB 3.0 sticks but will use them at the speed of USB 2.0.

The fact that the drive flashes for a longer period of time is because Genos is reading it to make an inventory of all of it contents so that if you decide to do a search (on Genos) (for styles, registrations files .....) it will know what is in the drive(s) connected.

Regards

Rudy

[zionip]

Hi Lee,

Genos USB ports are USB2.0.

There is not conceivable speed differences between USB 2.0 and USB 3.0 flash drives on Genos.  However, the USB3.0 flash drives are much faster when working with your computer/laptop with USB 3.0 ports, which makes file transfers much faster between your computer and Genos.

I personally only use USB 3.0 flash drives since the price difference between USB 2.0 and USB 3.0 flash drives is not much, and the USB 3.0 flash drives are much quicker in file transfers on computers.
Thanks,
Paul

[Lee Batchelor]

Thanks guys.

It always amazes me how companies are so advanced in some things, yet so far behind the times for certain things. I knew there was a significant speed difference on a PC. Why not the Genos? After all, it's a computer first and a keyboard second. The older entry level PSR keyboards were keyboards first with a wee bit of computing power.

You make perfect sense too, Rudy. I can see where the Genos would be building indexes in background, in case I invoke the search function.

Thanks all.

[pjd]

Hi --

I don't sweat the price difference betwee USB 2 and 3 drives anymore. Even if the Genos side is slow, my PC can take advantage of USB 3 and that side is fast.

More importantly, I refuse to use drives where the manufacturer has not explicitly specified the write speed. Flash write speed is the real bottleneck. I avoid any "3 for $15" deals because the manufacturer is probably using a design or flash memory that is turtle slow when writing, and the cheap drives always disappoint.

All the best -- pj

[AlBags]

Paul is wrong here, I'm afraid.
USB3 to USB2 will try to transfer up to Max speed of slowest controller.
It's like this in most cases in computing, like router wifi speeds, board BUS speeds, etc 

However, there are several specs of usb drives. A premium usb drive (stick) like a SanDisk Ultra is the way to go, noticeably faster than some cheap sticks.
Personally, if it's a cheap Chinese stick, replace it.
16, 32 or 64Gb should all be adequate, and will handle anything, including large OS Upgrade files.

Cheers .. Al.

[pjd]

Sorry, Al, but I've got to stick to my earlier comments.

Drive speed (specifically, write time) is determined by BOTH flash write speed and the USB communications bus. If the internal flash memory is slow to write, then writing will be slow, even if the read speed is reasonably fast.

Flash memory write speed is much slower than read. I don't buy a flash drive unless The manufacturer explicitly specifies the write speed. Otherwise, They are not being open and transparent, mostly likely due to a slow write speed.

Gotta respectfully disagree and still wish everyone the best -- pj

Quickly wrote this while the plane (literally) was landing.  I suspect that we agree more to than not. I agree that the USB controller and memory stick negotiate the transfer speed.

[ugawoga]

Usb 3 is a little faster than usb 2 in a nutshell

[valimaties]

Hi team,

... If not, I won't waste my money....

Hi Lee.
I don't know which are the prices in your country, but in my country a USB Stick of 64GB USB 2.0 is about 124 Ron (that means 30 dollars), and a USB 3.0 stick of the same capacity of the same producer is 100 Ron (25 Dollars). So USB 3.0 is cheaper than USB 2.0 .
It is a merchandise politics in my country that tell us we have to use latest technology, not the old ones The buy-back solutions are very poor, by the way, in my country, which in other countries are much more used





Regards,
Vali

[Lee Batchelor]

Thanks for the input everyone! I just may invest in a USB 3, if not for my PC alone. I'll cross check the name against the Yamaha list of usable USB sticks so that it also works on my Genos.

Many thanks again .

[EileenL]

Verbatim are fast writing ones and I never get any trouble with them.

[Lee Batchelor]

Yes, I have two of those Eileen. They're great too. Thanks!

[AlBags]

Thanks for the input everyone! I just may invest in a USB 3, if not for my PC alone. I'll cross check the name against the Yamaha list of usable USB sticks so that it also works on my Genos.

Many thanks again .

Even ones they DONT list work fine. .. like the Sandisk OTG 64Gb double-ended sticks I use. Sandisk Blade and Transcent are also top on speed. They have a speed better than most available, plus they have a Micro USB one end and a USB the other. You can freely swap these around if you use smartphones (or they will work as a standard stick) Kingston data are also fast, as are Corsair.

Al.

[AlBags]

Paul is wrong here, I'm afraid.
USB3 to USB2 will try to transfer up to Max speed of slowest controller.
It's like this in most cases in computing, like router wifi speeds, board BUS speeds, etc 

However, there are several specs of usb drives. A premium usb drive (stick) like a SanDisk Ultra is the way to go, noticeably faster than some cheap sticks.
Personally, if it's a cheap Chinese stick, replace it.
16, 32 or 64Gb should all be adequate, and will handle anything, including large OS Upgrade files.

Cheers .. Al.

Paul .... I didnt have a problem with what you said .. I was referring to Paul's postearlier in thread!

Al

[Toril S]

Hello Just now, I would go for ANY USB stick! Am on floppies at the moment (remember those flat plastic things?) that only took about 30 styles? When I find a suitable time mschine, I will come back to 2018! 

[AlBags]

*** ... Yes, my Yamaha 2700 used those .. and what a real pain in the bum they were too!
Sometimes make strange noises and wipe themselves out for no apparent reason. Data? What data? Gone!
I'll send you some USB sticks ... maybe you can get them into the thin floppy slot! 😊

About time they had your keyboard back!

Al 😊😉

[pjd]

Paul .... I didnt have a problem with what you said .. I was referring to Paul's postearlier in thread!

Al

Hi Al --

I'm sorry! We need unique identifiers. 

Glad to be home again...

-- THX1138

[valimaties]

Hi Al --

I'm sorry! We need unique identifiers. 

Glad to be home again...

-- THX1138

Code: [Select]

String uniquePJD = UUID.randomUUID().toString();
pjd = "This is our "Tehchnique-Info-Data-Paul":" + uniquePJD + "\nDo not confound ;D ";

 

[pjd]

The Java version got a little verbose. 

All the best -- 42072645-50e0-44a9-9b8a-2185d5a0bca5

Code: [Select]

> more MyUUID.java

import java.util.UUID ;

public class MyUUID {

  public static void main(String[] args) {
      String uniquePJD = UUID.randomUUID().toString() ;
      String pjd = "This is our Technique-Info-Data-Paul:" + uniquePJD + "\nDo not confound ;D " ;
      System.out.println(pjd) ;
  }
}

> java MyUUID
This is our Technique-Info-Data-Paul:42072645-50e0-44a9-9b8a-2185d5a0bca5
Do not confound ;D


[valimaties]

 

[AlBags]

USB 3.0 are promoted as there a millions pouring into the supply chains.
Fact is, a USB3 will NOT be faster than a USB2 when data is going through a USB2 controller. It's impossible.
Just buy the 'best deal' reputable brand/model that you can find!
The other think that people dont realise .. is that solid state memory actually wears out! Based on the number of writes/re-writes. Buy quality, and you have best chance.

Al.

[markstyles]

Yes, kbd manufactures do not use the newest technology, it would be too expensive.  The processors in kbds, are fast enough for audio.  USB 3.1, 3, 2, 1 will default to the slowest speed in the chain. That is usb 3 ports, will have no problem with usb 2 devices. Since the output of Genos is usb 2, you do not need to get usb3 flash drives, unless you desire to re-use them at a later point.. or get  a computer with usb3..  Computers will generally upgrade to the newest speeds, they can afford. and everybody else, follows suit.

Computers are pushing Thunderbolt 3,  (best suited for super hi quality video).  Doubtful you would need Thunderbolt 3 for audio.  But all the companies like to upgrade, hype it, and force you to spend more money. 

I bought and had issues with usb drives when I had a Tyros 3.. Some would work, others not. Some would store styles, but not program data to update the firmware.   I found a brand that did work, and just keep using those.

[valimaties]

The only reason you buy a USB 3 stick is to use with computer on transfer files... Is the only thing that matters. And definitely, if you use it with Genos, only if use use one of the visible ports, front or rear. If you intent to insert the USB stick underneath your keyboard, don't bother to buy a USB 3.

And another reason, is only for "the look" - I have USB 3.0, not an old USB 2.0 stick

Regards,
Vali

[keynote]

Yamaha needs to step up its game regarding data transfer. USB 3.0 has been out since November 2008 which is called SuperSpeed (5 Gbit/s) yet the Genos (released October 2017) only has USB 2.0 (480Mb/s).  USB 3.1 was finalized in July 2013 SuperSpeed+ (10 Gbit/s) more than four years before Genos was released to the public. USB 2.0 is okay for audio recording but for all intents and purposes it is an obsolete specification and especially for data transfer. The Genos has 58GB of internal flash memory so once data is on the Genos flash drive transferring data internally is much quicker. But transferring from an external source to the Genos, or from the Genos to a computer, is relatively slow because the Genos unfortunately only has a USB 2.0 interface.  On the other hand, USB 3.0 thumb drives are backward compatible with USB 2.0 and since all newer computers have USB 3.0 it is better to buy USB 3.0 thumb drives to be able to have faster data transfers on the computer itself.

When the Genos 2 comes out, or whatever Yamaha decides to call it, it will be interesting to see if it has USB 3/3.1. That would be a big reason to upgrade if it did in my opinion. Another reason to upgrade would be if Yamaha introduced S.Art 3 voices. Also an adjustable LCD screen would also be a nice improvement. A 61 key option would probably be a big hit too especially for organists primarily. Yamaha can't give us all the bells and whistles on any given arranger they release since there would be no real need to upgrade to future products in my opinion. So the Genos 2, or whatever Yamaha decides to call it, will be something to look forward to especially if it includes several new features and functions such as the ones I mentioned. For now we have to settle for the Genos USB 2.0 limitations but the silver lining is the Genos is such a great keyboard it's more productive to focus on the positive. And hopefully Yamaha's future high-end arranger will also be worth the price of admission.  Time will tell.

Mike 

[pjd]

Hi --

I don't want to get too far into the guts of the Genos hardware. Still, a few points...

Virtually every major interface is integrated into the Texas Instruments AM4376 host CPU (1 GHz Sitara ARM Cortex-A9). That includes two USB ports (USR 2.0), two eMMC interfaces (AKA "internal storage") and a PowerVR SGX530 3D graphics engine. Yamaha don't get to pick and choose individual interfaces; they get what Texas Instruments can deliver in a single device. Yamaha's engineers need to trade off cost, port speed, graphics engine, etc. and find the component with the best mix of functionality.

The first AM4376 USB port is the external "USB to HOST" port. The second AM4376 USB port connects to a USB hub (a Genesis Logic GL852G-MNG03 USB 2.0 MTT Hub Controller). The hub has four destinations:

USB hub (GL852G)  Purpose/destination
----------------  -----------------------------
Port 1            Wireless LAN module (UD-WL01)
Port 2            USB to DEVICE (front)
Port 3            USB to DEVICE (bottom)
Port 4            USB to DEVICE (back)

Sure, it would be great to have USB 3. Perhaps if there is an integrated system on a chip which Yamaha can adopt.

Hope this helps our understanding -- pj

Music technology blog: http://sandsoftwaresound.net/

P.S. Bet you didn't know that Genos has a 3D graphics engine. 

[Lee Batchelor]

Good discussion folks! As for any company making any changes to any product, it's not about how to do it. They know exactly how to do it. It's all about money. I'd be happy if the Japanese would learn the frickin' alphabet and then use the darn thing!!

[keynote]

Sitara Processor AM5748 (preview): Dual Arm Cortex-A15 & Dual DSP, Multimedia, ECC on DDR and Secure Boot @ 1,500MHz (500MHz faster than the AM4376 host CPU)

Features
Dual Arm® Cortex®-A15 Microprocessor Subsystem
Up to two C66x Floating-Point VLIW DSP
Fully Object-Code Compatible With C67x and C64x+
Up to Thirty-two 16 × 16-Bit Fixed-Point Multiplies per Cycle
Up to 2.5MB of On-Chip L3 RAM
Two DDR3/DDR3L Memory Interface   (EMIF) Modules
Supports rates up to DDR3-1333
Up to 2GB Supported per EMIF
ECC supported on primary EMIF
2× Dual   Arm®   Cortex®-M4 co-processors (IPU1 and   IPU2)
Up to Two Embedded Vision Engines   (EVEs)
IVA-HD Subsystem
4K @ 15fps encode and decode support for H.264 CODEC
Other CODECs are up to 1080p60
Display Subsystem
Full-HD Video (1920 × 1080p, 60 fps)
Multiple Video Input and Video   Output
2D and 3D Graphics
Display Controller With DMA Engine and up to Three Pipelines
HDMI™ Encoder: HDMI 1.4a and DVI 1.0   Compliant
2× Dual-Core Programmable Real-Time Unit   and Industrial Communication Subsystem (PRU-ICSS)
2D-Graphics Accelerator   (BB2D) Subsystem
Vivante® GC320 Core
Video   Processing Engine (VPE)
Dual-Core   PowerVR® SGX544 3D GPU
Secure Boot support
Hardware-enforced Root-of-trust
Customer programmable keys and OTP data
Support for   Takeover protection, IP protection, and anti-roll back   protection
Cryptographic Acceleration support
Supports cryptographic cores
AES – 128/192/256-bits key sizes
3DES – 56/112/168-bits key sizes
MD5,   SHA1
SHA2 – 224/256/384/512
True Random number generator
DMA support
Debug   security
Secure software controlled debug access
Security aware   debugging
Trusted Execution Environment (TEE)   support
Arm TrustZone based TEE
Extensive Firewall support for isolation
Secure DMA   path and interconnect
Secure   watchdog/timer/IPC
Two Video Input Port (VIP) Modules
Support for up to eight Multiplexed Input Ports
General-Purpose Memory Controller (GPMC)
Enhanced Direct Memory Access (EDMA) Controller
2-Port Gigabit Ethernet (GMAC)
Sixteen 32-Bit General-Purpose Timers
32-Bit MPU Watchdog Timer
Five Inter-Integrated Circuit (I2C) Ports
HDQ™/1-Wire ® Interface
Ten   Configurable UART/IrDA/CIR Modules
Four Multichannel Serial Peripheral Interfaces (McSPI)
Quad   SPI Interface (QSPI)
SATA Gen2 Interface
Eight Multichannel Audio Serial Port (McASP)   Modules
SuperSpeed USB 3.0 Dual-Role Device 
High-Speed USB   2.0 Dual-Role Device
Four MultiMedia Card/Secure Digital/Secure Digital Input Output Interfaces (MMC™/SD™/SDIO)
PCI Express® 3.0   Subsystems With Two 5-Gbps Lanes
One 2-lane Gen2-Compliant Port
or Two 1-lane Gen2-Compliant Ports
Up to two Controller Area Network (DCAN)   Modules
CAN 2.0B   Protocol
Modular Controller Area Network (MCAN)   Module
CAN 2.0B Protocol with available FD   
(Flexible Data Rate) functionality
Up to 247 General-Purpose   I/O (GPIO) Pins
Power, Reset, and Clock Management
On-Chip Debug With CTools Technology
28-nm CMOS   Technology
23 mm × 23 mm, 0.8-mm Pitch, 760-Pin BGA (ABZ)

PS: Hopefully this Texas Instrument Dual Arm Cortex Processor will be available soon. Maybe not in time for Genos 2 but you never know.    If it is then it could be a game changer in my opinion.

Mike

[Lee Batchelor]

Holy socks, Mike!! Do you think anyone is going to read all that? I understand about 2 percent of it !

Thanks anyway.

[EileenL]

I have to agree Lee. What is wrong with using Genos as it was intended. Beautiful instrument.

[Lee Batchelor]

Thanks Eileen. I just did a Reg backup using a USB stick-->my PC. My entire activity with my Genos is driven from the internal SSD - no USB drives. However, I waited eons for all my Regs to be copied to the USB drive. And just when you figure it's safe to pull the USB stick out, it starts to flicker again. Probably something to do with indexing. Yes, they could spend the extra pennies and put a USB port in that isn't from the Dark Ages, but the Genos still sounds great!