Author Topic: Live Stream Editing the Custom Voice for Tyros 5.  (Read 4244 times)

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Offline Cosmorot

Live Stream Editing the Custom Voice for Tyros 5.
« on: August 16, 2018, 01:34:12 PM »
Boring, informative and demonstrative video about the complexities of editorial voices in the Extension Manager.

https://youtu.be/Nm-QA6E6nRc

Offline Joe H

Re: Live Stream Editing the Custom Voice for Tyros 5.
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2018, 03:11:13 PM »
Cosmorot,

I watched your video.  I hope that this helps people understand how much work goes into creating good Voices... and why Voice packs cost as much as they do.  Of coarse Yamaha Voices are not as elaborate as the one you created... they are far simpler often just 1 or 2 wave forms.

Thanks for sharing your work.

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads in registrations. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline Cosmorot

Re: Live Stream Editing the Custom Voice for Tyros 5.
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2018, 02:20:25 PM »
Joe, thank you for understanding! In fact, this video I wanted to convey to Yamaha how difficult it is to work in the Extension Manager.
And I also want to clarify that EVERY sample is subjected to processing and attribution of attributes, which requires a hardware sampler. And Yamaha, for some reason, opposes the creation of proffessional voices. If I could use the buttons Art.1 and Art.2, I would be able to add pop and slap to the voice! Instead, I will have to use a different octave for this. If I could use the modulation wheel as a crossfade, I would add an overload of the amplifier to the sound of this "bass".
Why does not Yamaha want to hear the consumer?
Now all the software samplers are made taking into account long-term use!
I'm afraid that it's much easier to program in Kontact, and then to convert sounds into SF2, and then import into T5.
Why? Why? Why?
 

Offline pjd

Re: Live Stream Editing the Custom Voice for Tyros 5.
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2018, 02:42:25 PM »
Hi Cosmorot --

Thanks for posting your video.

I totally agree that YEM needs some major enhancements to turn it into a true pro-level voice development tool.

In case Yamaha is readinf this thread, I've included links to my blog posts about YEM voice editing. If Yamaha looks at these articles, they will see several basic areas that need improvement.

All the best to ya -- pj

http://sandsoftwaresound.net/genos-voice-editing-yem/
http://sandsoftwaresound.net/creating-mega-voice-yem/
http://sandsoftwaresound.net/genos-voice-editing-an-example/
http://sandsoftwaresound.net/genos-voice-editing-xml-notepad/
http://sandsoftwaresound.net/creating-mega-voice-yem/
 

Offline Joe H

Re: Live Stream Editing the Custom Voice for Tyros 5.
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2018, 02:58:44 PM »
Cosmorot and pj,

I think Yamaha is getting the message that arranger players want more "synth" capabilities, including a much improved YEM editor and more Live Control capabilities as well.  They are slow to respond to the new generation of arranger owners / players, but we see them adding these new capabilities with each model release. 

It would be great if Yamaha could add new features and sounds via firmware updates to the arranger keyboard like the Montage but alas... that would mean fewer sales of new boards every 3 years or so.

I believe Yamaha is working from an old business model similar to Microsoft and Apple Corporation. (IMHO)

I'm just starting to edit some custom synth Voices (SF2 samples) in YEM.  I'm finding the YEM Editor rather "simple" compared to the Motif Editor which has a lot more parameters and capabilities.

 ;)

Joe H
« Last Edit: August 17, 2018, 03:02:21 PM by Joe H »
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads in registrations. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline Joe H

Re: Live Stream Editing the Custom Voice for Tyros 5.
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2018, 03:06:57 PM »
...  And Yamaha, for some reason, opposes the creation of proffessional voices...

Yes I agree and Yamaha doesn't want us to create professional styles or Multi Pads either. They don't give us good tools to work with.

 :(

Joe H
« Last Edit: August 17, 2018, 05:14:32 PM by Joe H »
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads in registrations. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline SeaGtGruff

Re: Live Stream Editing the Custom Voice for Tyros 5.
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2018, 03:48:34 PM »
Don't forget, the Montage and Motif are synths that use AWM2 technology, while the Genos and Tyros and PSR-S are arrangers that use AWM technology. I don't know if this might be relevant to some of the differences between the voice editing parameters, but I wouldn't be surprised if it were.
Michael Rideout
Current keyboards: Yamaha YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443, PSR-EW400, MX49 BK
Current controllers: M-Audio Axiom 61-II
Previous keyboards: Farfisa Matador 611; Casio CTK-710
 

Offline Joe H

Re: Live Stream Editing the Custom Voice for Tyros 5.
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2018, 05:19:34 PM »
Michael,

I don't think that makes a difference.  BTW... many of the sounds in the arranger are the same as the Motif.  I'm not sure that stereo AWM is not AWM2.  I have both MU128 and MU100R sound modules with AWM2 samples and I'd be hard pressed to tell the difference in sound from my S970.

In fact the samples (maybe audio output) in the Tyros and Genos are far superior to the AWM2 samples in those 1998 sound modules.

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads in registrations. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline pjd

Re: Live Stream Editing the Custom Voice for Tyros 5.
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2018, 06:25:09 PM »
Don't forget, the Montage and Motif are synths that use AWM2 technology, while the Genos and Tyros and PSR-S are arrangers that use AWM technology. I don't know if this might be relevant to some of the differences between the voice editing parameters, but I wouldn't be surprised if it were.

HI Michael --

I believe the occasional use of "AWM" instead of "AWM2" is just incidental. Can't remember where I saw it, but a Yamaha rep confessed that sometimes they're just lazy, tired or too hungry  :D  to spell out "AWM2." The two product lines share the same tone generation ICs where AWM2 is embedded.

AWM-ness has to do with sample representation, compression, decompression and certain kinds of on-the-fly processing. All of this is handled in the hardware.

First gen AWM is truly dead except for antique collectors -- and fairly old antiques at that!  :)

All the best -- pj
 

Offline Cosmorot

Re: Live Stream Editing the Custom Voice for Tyros 5.
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2018, 06:33:06 PM »
SeaGtGruff AWM AWM2 In fact, this is a sampler! But long in one loop with overtones inherent in this or that instrument. This is a sampler that uses samples that are long in a single phase. And in general, the voice includes a set of similar samples + filters and envelopes. It was invented in a period when memory cost as a house. And the samplers with a memory size of 128 cost very high.
Now I have 2GB of memory on board! And nothing I can not fill them completely.  ;)
BUT! I'm not talking about the amendments for which it is necessary to remodel the hardware, making technical improvements (when it is necessary to invent a new synthesizer model)
   No! I'm talking about simple things that are easy to fix in the Extension Manager code! If T5 on the hardware level understands the buttons Art.1 and Art.2, and this is just the numbers of the controllers 81 and 82 with the values 0 and 128. And T5 performs certain functions! Hence the sounds inside Yamaha assigned attributes by which certain samples are included.
   To make the editing window big Yamaha release a new Gennos 2? This is absurd!
Take the voices organs, where Mod. turns on and off the effect of the rotary. This means that from the value of the controller 120, the sampler changes the sample. That's all! This function is an elementary crossfade, which is in ANY sampler since 1985! ANY!
And if T5 is subject to these controllers and there is an editor (Extension Manager), then why do not I have the tools to work in it?
This is not the reason for the release of the new model!
 

Offline Cosmorot

Re: Live Stream Editing the Custom Voice for Tyros 5.
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2018, 06:37:04 PM »
pjd  :D Even easier! It is not a generator, but a sample player with a length of 0.04 - 0.06 ms.
On Monday I will record a video how to create attributes in a sample so that they can be understood by a sampler. This is a piece of cake
 

Offline SeaGtGruff

Re: Live Stream Editing the Custom Voice for Tyros 5.
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2018, 11:06:19 PM »
We had some discussion about AWM versus AWM2 in another thread. From what I'd read on Yamaha's site, I'm pretty sure that AWM2 is not the same as AWM. They are basically the same, but AWM2 is AWM with something else added and/or something done a bit differently-- the details are unclear.

As for "laziness" in whether someone at Yamaha says "AWM" or "AWM2," I suspect this merely refers to the difference in saying-- to use another technology as an example-- VST versus VST2 versus VST3. VST2 and VST3 are both VST, but they are not the same as each other, nor are they the same as VST1. Basically the same, yes; exactly the same, no. Or to use another example, just because it's okay to say that a collie is a dog and a chihuahua is a dog, does not mean that a collie and a chihuahua are the same.

Anyway, whatever the specific differences are between AWM (or "AWM1" if you will) and AWM2, according to the specs on Yamaha's web site AWM (with or without stereo-sampled sounds) is used in the arrangers and AWM2 is used in the synths. You can agree to disagree, but unless you're an engineer from Yamaha who's intimately familiar with the technical details of AWM2 and are authorized by Yamaha to explain those details, you aren't going to convince me otherwise. And since I'm not an engineer from Yamaha, either, I realize that I'm not going to convince you otherwise. ;)
Michael Rideout
Current keyboards: Yamaha YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443, PSR-EW400, MX49 BK
Current controllers: M-Audio Axiom 61-II
Previous keyboards: Farfisa Matador 611; Casio CTK-710
 

Offline pjd

Re: Live Stream Editing the Custom Voice for Tyros 5.
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2018, 11:37:46 PM »
Hi Michael --

I agree that AWM (v1) is not the same as AWM2. AWM is ancient and is covered by its own set of (fairly old) patents.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on the latter point. My position is that AWM2 is used in all current mid-/high-end arangers as well as sample-based synths.

It's OK to disagree!  :)  :)  :) I completely respect and enoy your comments and analysis.

-- pj
 

Offline SeaGtGruff

Re: Live Stream Editing the Custom Voice for Tyros 5.
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2018, 12:37:32 AM »
My position is that AWM2 is used in all current mid-/high-end arangers as well as sample-based synths.

My position is that it's too difficult for me to believe that Yamaha would fail to call it "AWM2" in the specs for their arrangers if that's in fact what it is, especially since they're so careful to say "AWM2" in the specs for their synths. I don't know-- maybe Yamaha's Arranger Marketing Department is just too lazy to type the "2" on the end; but I have too much trouble believing that such is the case. :)
Michael Rideout
Current keyboards: Yamaha YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443, PSR-EW400, MX49 BK
Current controllers: M-Audio Axiom 61-II
Previous keyboards: Farfisa Matador 611; Casio CTK-710
 

Offline Cosmorot

Re: Live Stream Editing the Custom Voice for Tyros 5.
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2018, 06:01:01 AM »
SeaGtGruff I ask you not to build a flame. Theme with synthesis protocols and VST is offtopic.

But I was also engaged in the production of VST plug-ins and the creation of waveforms for AWM. VST - the first virtual instruments, Open protocol for any developer. In VST2, you could use several audio streams and work with multiple processor cores using sse2. VST3 - the ability to handle more of the number of audio streams (including the side chain) and turn-off in the passive state, which is a resource. (Just as the MIDI system - the first bit turns on the system, the last turns off. The total system is always off and activated when the key is pressed or the controller is changed).
 
AVM2 is able to digest several waveforms simultaneously with different loop lengths. What does it give? The ability to divide the voice into a "body" - a primitive basic sound and overtones - is the expressiveness of sound. + Add waveforms to the reels. But it's still within 1-4 samples. Therefore, the sound, in comparison with the sampler, remains primitive.
On Monday I'll make a video explaining this.
 

Offline valio7771

Re: Live Stream Editing the Custom Voice for Tyros 5.
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2018, 06:57:48 PM »

Why does not Yamaha want to hear the consumer?

The answer is equally simple as it is sad, unfortunately.

If they let us make our own sounds, the way we want them, they'll lose money on designing and engineering new keyboards. Why would you buy Genos 2,3,4..etc when you already have a keyboard in which can put the sounds you need, and you can do it easily without paying extra money?
Tool like Yamaha Expansion Manager, is only to create the initial illusion that you can do whatever you want with it, but when you dig in deeper you realise that is quite limited and made purposely clumsy to work with, and the result of hours of hard work is never 100% satisfactory. Still, it's better than nothing, but neither is what suits your needs :|

Cheers!
 

Offline Cosmorot

Re: Live Stream Editing the Custom Voice for Tyros 5.
« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2018, 08:21:21 AM »
Opposite they could make money on this! Elementally, a platform is created for the exchange of packets for la Invato. The complexity of the votes is assessed. And voila! Creators sell Voices, users buy and Yamaha has a percentage.
 

Offline Seagull29

Re: Live Stream Editing the Custom Voice for Tyros 5.
« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2018, 09:49:10 AM »
Hi,
Money, just money, only money !!!!!!
 

Offline Cosmorot

Re: Live Stream Editing the Custom Voice for Tyros 5.
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2018, 06:35:37 PM »
I apologize for the fact that my profession musician and my family sometimes want to eat.
And I did not say that I WANT to earn money by creating voices. I said that I need to do their work!
 

Offline Seagull29

Re: Live Stream Editing the Custom Voice for Tyros 5.
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2018, 08:40:46 PM »
Hi,
I'm also professional musician. I just wanted to say that, for Yamaha, it was money, only money. I think they don't want anybody can make their own voices as well as they propose to sell. They just want you pay to have what they sell and only this. I'd like to have personnaly some efficient tools to create styles for example but on my Tyros 5, it's the prehistory of editing if I compare with my old G70 Roland or whith the Pa4X Korg ! And it's the same to create sounds with YEM ! For Yamaha, we are made only to pay !
 

Offline valio7771

Re: Live Stream Editing the Custom Voice for Tyros 5.
« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2018, 12:08:53 PM »
Yep, welcome to the brainwashed-raging-capitalism-consumer-give-us-all-your-money world, where everything is made to be obsolete in fairly short period of time, rather than build to last and created to adapt to your personal needs.

I'll share my 'love' story (the short version) with Yamaha Expansion Manager (YEM), and sorry to repeat myself for some you that are familiar with my original post about that.

Because of broken hard drive in my PC, I've lost all my .ppf files for the packs that I have installed on my Tyros5, and because YEM can't see what is installed on the keyboard when connected through USB, and neither the keyboard can export the currently installed packs, there is no way to get my sounds back into YEM from the keyboard. All I have is some old .ppi files, but YEM can't import any data from .ppi.....WHY???
Why not have just ONE type of file for your packs that you can transfer back and forth between your PC and keyboard? Is it really impossible to be this way?...NO, of coarse it is possible!
Why they've made such a variety of proprietary files than?...the answer is MONEEEYYYYY, and also we're not allowed to have this freedom even though we paid Yamaha thousands of our hard earned cash.

So, good luck everyone!
 

Offline Cosmorot

Re: Live Stream Editing the Custom Voice for Tyros 5.
« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2018, 08:48:28 AM »
My condolences, my friend.  :'(