Author Topic: Does the Yamaha genos also have a built-in audio interface like montage?  (Read 1583 times)

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Offline mstone73

I have a question !
is the genos also built-in audio interface like montage?

I'm now connecting the montage and pc to the usb cable,
The input and output of the midi and audio signals are performed at once.
Is the genos built-in audio interface like montage? I wonder if it can be used like montage..

and..

Where is the country that sells without wifi ? Is Wifi built in in Germany?


I'm waiting for the responses from Genos user.
 

Offline EB5AGV

I have a question !
is the genos also built-in audio interface like montage?

I'm now connecting the montage and pc to the usb cable,
The input and output of the midi and audio signals are performed at once.
Is the genos built-in audio interface like montage? I wonder if it can be used like montage..

and..

Where is the country that sells without wifi ? Is Wifi built in in Germany?


I'm waiting for the responses from Genos user.

I am sorry for you, but not, USB is only for MIDI and data communication, not audio. It is written on the Genos Reference Manual, page 152:

Quote
When the instrument is in the USB Storage Mode, Wave files and Song files can be transferred between the User drive of Genos and the computer. When the instrument is NOT in the USB Storage Mode, the USB connection can be used for MIDI control. The USB interface does not directly handle audio signals.

Jose
Jose Gavila

SY77+SPX990, DGX660, Genos
 

Offline soryt

It is indeed idiot that on a Moxf of a 1000 dollar it works great and also audio implemitation fore a I-Pad . ( and a nice editor)
Yamaha stil dont take her Arranger players serious , Again . . . .

Soneg  :-X
 

Offline vbdx66

Hi to all,

I canít believe this. The PSR E363, 453 and 463 all have a built-in Audio interface. I donít understand why the flagship doesnít?  :o

Regards,

Vinciane.
Past keyboards: PSR E313, PSR E413, PSR E433, PSR S550, DGX 640, upright piano.
Now: DGX 650, awaiting Casio CT-x3000
 

Offline voodoo

Hi to all,

I canít believe this. The PSR E363, 453 and 463 all have a built-in Audio interface. I donít understand why the flagship doesnít?  :o

Regards,

Vinciane.

The Genos does not have

* USB Audio interface
* Class compliant midi host (to connect USB midi controllers)
* compatibility with touch external screen

So we don't know why.....

Uli
Yamaha Genos (finally)
Nord Electro 5D
 

Offline vbdx66

@Uli:

Does this mean that you cannot use an iPad to control the Genos (from the ChordTracker app for instance) or that you cannot use the Genos to control an iPad (to play the Korg iM1 or any other virtual synth for instance)?

Regards,

Vinciane.
Past keyboards: PSR E313, PSR E413, PSR E433, PSR S550, DGX 640, upright piano.
Now: DGX 650, awaiting Casio CT-x3000
 

Offline Dromeus

To my best knowledge there has never been a Yamaha arranger featuring a USB audio interface, and the Genos makes no exception which is a shame.

PS: a USB audio recorder is NOT an audio interface.
Regards, Michael
 

Offline vbdx66

Well, somebody from the PSR E board will confirm this (Hi SeaGtGruff and SciNote  8)), but the PSR E363, 453 and 463 all have an audio interface: they can send and receive audio digital data bi-directionnally to and from a computer or an iPad (or some Android devices) without the need of an external audio digital interface.

Actually, I am thinking of buying a PSR E463 precisely because of this feature (the PSR E463 also has a digital recorder, it can record audio on an USB stick, the PSR E353 and 453 donít have this feature but they do have the audio interface).

Regards,

Vinciane.

Past keyboards: PSR E313, PSR E413, PSR E433, PSR S550, DGX 640, upright piano.
Now: DGX 650, awaiting Casio CT-x3000
 

Offline vbdx66

Hereby a screen capture with the specs for the PSR E463. Audio interface marked in yellow.

Vinciane.
Past keyboards: PSR E313, PSR E413, PSR E433, PSR S550, DGX 640, upright piano.
Now: DGX 650, awaiting Casio CT-x3000
 

Offline Fred Smith

Genos has a Digital Audio Out port, rather than USB audio.

Soneg, please keep your comments civil. You can ask or comment on features without calling Yamaha "idiot" all the time.

Hope this helps,
Fred
Fred Smith,
Saskatoon, SK
Sun Lakes, AZ
Genos, Bose L1 compacts, Finale 2015
Check out my Registration Lessons
 

Offline Bachus

Genos has a Digital Audio Out port, rather than USB audio.

Soneg, please keep your comments civil. You can ask or comment on features without calling Yamaha "idiot" all the time.

Hope this helps,
Fred

USB audio is not only output, but also input..
For people using VSTís USB audio 24 bit 96khz beats everything...

Yamaha is not an idiot, yamaha puts the Genos exactly where they want it
They donít want to make it to easy to expand a Genos with VST sounds..
They prefer making money with selling their specific Genos expansion packs

Which works well for over 90% of the Genos community..
Yamaha is anything but an idiot.
But they willingly decided to not make the Genos a competitor for their pro line of synthworkstations.
And i guess salenumbers proof them right.

But dear Fred, you also need to understand that people with different needs, are dissapointed because of these Yamaha decisions. And this seems the only forum in the world where they can express that dissapointment.

Personally i think Yamaha missed a chance here, for adding the cubase and daw integration many people want for their instruments.. USB audio is a perfect tool to archieve this.. just hook up your laptop and use the Genos as the audio interface..  so convenient, at almost no cost at all, as the audi over USB interface is allready programmed and tested.
Keyszone.boards.net for all the latest keyboard news and information.
 

Offline Dromeus

@Vinciane: thanks for pointing that out, very interesting. I admit that my focus is not on arrangers in this price range. Moreover I don't think that the audio chip built into those keyboards would be appropriate in a high-end arranger that the Genos is supposed to be.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2018, 08:30:08 PM by Dromeus »
Regards, Michael
 

Offline vbdx66

@Michael: nonetheless, I am wondering whether they put such an interface in a 300 Ä/USD keyboard and not in a 3500Ä/USD one...  :o

If you remember, the same thing happened with the arpegiator: for the arrangers, it came in the PSR E4xx series before it reached the PSR S series, then the Genos.

Regards,

Vinciane.
Past keyboards: PSR E313, PSR E413, PSR E433, PSR S550, DGX 640, upright piano.
Now: DGX 650, awaiting Casio CT-x3000
 

Offline Dromeus

I am wondering whether they put such an interface in a 300 Ä/USD keyboard

This is a very interesting question. I would not expect customers of an arranger in this price range to be interested in using a DAW or VSTs. But maybe I'm wrong here. Anyway, Yamaha seems to promote Genos also as a song writing/production tool, and as such a built-in high quality audio interface would be appropriate. I think it would be a killer machine for that purpose and Yamaha really missed that opportunity, despite of its marketing fuss.
Regards, Michael
 

Offline SeaGtGruff

The USB audio on the PSR-E models uses 44.1 kHz, 16 bit, stereo. USB audio can be much better than that, but I don't know what the USB audio on the Montage and other Yamaha synths uses, because it isn't listed under their specs on Yamaha USA's site. I believe that coaxial audio (S/PDIF?) uses 48 kHz, 20 bit, stereo, or 24 bit if the hardware supports it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S/PDIF

I suppose it's possible that Yamaha went with coaxial audio output on the Genos because it has better bit depth and rate than the USB audio they're using on the PSR-E and synths-- that is, depending on what rate and bit depth is used on their synths.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2018, 05:41:39 AM by SeaGtGruff »
Michael Rideout
Current keyboards: Yamaha YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443, PSR-EW400, MX49 BK
Current controllers: M-Audio Axiom 61-II
Previous keyboards: Farfisa Matador 611; Casio CTK-710
 

Offline vbdx66

Actually, according to PracticalSenses, the digital audio interface of the PSR E363 can work on 24 bits, see this post:

https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,44793.0.html

So I assume that it would be the same for both the PSR E453 and E463.

Regards,

Vinciane
Past keyboards: PSR E313, PSR E413, PSR E433, PSR S550, DGX 640, upright piano.
Now: DGX 650, awaiting Casio CT-x3000
 

Offline SeaGtGruff

The PSR-E models are outputting 16-bit audio. A DAW might be able to "read" the audio coming from the PSR-E as 24-bit, but this doesn't transform it into actual 24-bit quality, it probably just pads the 16-bit data with extra 0 bits to make it look like 24-bit data. Nevertheless, it's still equivalent to 16-bit data as far as its sound quality and actual numeric precision.

And I suspect that any 24-bit audio data being sent back to the PSR-E would be converted to 16-bit data.
Michael Rideout
Current keyboards: Yamaha YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443, PSR-EW400, MX49 BK
Current controllers: M-Audio Axiom 61-II
Previous keyboards: Farfisa Matador 611; Casio CTK-710
 

Offline vbdx66

I asked the question to PracticalSenses on the other tread, because he actually tried it, so maybe he can enlighten us more on this matter.

Regards,

Vinciane
Past keyboards: PSR E313, PSR E413, PSR E433, PSR S550, DGX 640, upright piano.
Now: DGX 650, awaiting Casio CT-x3000
 

Offline ugawoga

Hi
The Genos does not need an Audio Interface
Link your Genos to a computer with Yamaha patch.
I have a separate audio interface Focusrite and that linked to a computer and Genos is a powerful  match
You can then use vst instruments as well. Don't forget Cubase for editing ,fantastic.
Think of those possibilites

Only a suggestion :)
« Last Edit: June 26, 2018, 02:38:18 PM by ugawoga »
 

Offline voodoo

@Uli:

Does this mean that you cannot use an iPad to control the Genos (from the ChordTracker app for instance) or that you cannot use the Genos to control an iPad (to play the Korg iM1 or any other virtual synth for instance)?

Regards,

Vinciane.

Vinciane,

this is a good question. And we have an easy answer:

* Genos works perfect as a class compliant midi client. It can be connected to the USB port of a PC or the camera connection kit of an iPad, and it works perfectly. I use this all day. For this, you have to use the quadratic to-host port of the Genos using a standard printer cable. No need to buy a USB midi interface.

* Genos does not work as host for USB midi devices. So we cannot connect USB midi controllers (which are clients) to the 3 USB ports. Only USB sticks.

I have some midi controllers like the Korg NanoKontrol or Line 6 FBV EXPRESS MKII foot switch. These are class compliant midi devices. They work perfectly with PC or iPad. But not with Genos, because they don't have a 5-pin midi out.

Uli

Yamaha Genos (finally)
Nord Electro 5D
 

Offline Dromeus

Folks, just my 2 ct. "Does not work", those days are gone for me, since I found my studio setup allowing all the flexibility I'll ever need.

  • Intel i7 PC running Windows 10
  • MOTU 828 mk3 audio interface
  • MOTU Express 128 MIDI interface
  • Cantabile Performance Software

This allows me to control any of my keyboards/expanders by any keyboard/controller I'm using. Cantabile also allows me to integrate any VST/VSTi in my setup. For me, it's a dream come true.



« Last Edit: June 26, 2018, 06:59:16 PM by Dromeus »
Regards, Michael
 

Offline soryt

Soneg, please keep your comments civil. You can ask or comment on features without calling Yamaha "idiot" all the time.
Fred

If someone has a little critic on the Genos you take it personal ?
It is a "premium" product and the designers dont use the latest technology they have , that is in my opinion "idiot" .

Soneg  :-X

 
 

Offline sugarplumsss

1. I fully understand the impulse to use the word idiot. However as I grow, I realize that life is not that black and white simple. Thus the term ( I have used too many times ) idiot is really not at all accurate in most cases. So find a bit more accurate term, is what I suggest. idiot, is wholly untrue, as applied to the mega giant that is Yamaha.
Yamaha is in business to make profit... which I am 110 % behind. They have to make intuitively based decisions ... so. I admit to using the old "idiot" label too many times. Their decisions are not just for the customers fantasies about what would be awesome... but more realistically, about a compromise between sustainability of their business and making us happy. I have had my gripes too.. but
idiot is an out moded term.

2. Am I off here in assuming there are easy work arounds to this so called issue?

3. I am seeking a kind compassionate user here to as the saying goes, "extend an olive branch" to  a non computer type, who is 100% musician.
Can someone explain using zero technical how to's or technical talk.. and in purely musician terms explain why I might want a built-in audio interface?    What could I achieve with the "missing" built-in audio interface?
I have made music full time for over 50 years.. and only recently am I being almost forced to go the way of "one man band" technology  aka tyros genos.
Again, do not explain the how, or use any tech terms... just explain in solely musical terms  aka mid 20th century terms, why this question/ complaint about what genos lacks, would be useful to me?
« Last Edit: June 26, 2018, 11:04:54 PM by sugarplumsss »
I use T4 as a drum machine. Playing my own acmp and bass. MIDI songs are my latest interest. If anyone wishes to share knowledge on MIDI songs let me know.
 

Offline Bachus

The PSR-E models are outputting 16-bit audio. A DAW might be able to "read" the audio coming from the PSR-E as 24-bit, but this doesn't transform it into actual 24-bit quality, it probably just pads the 16-bit data with extra 0 bits to make it look like 24-bit data. Nevertheless, it's still equivalent to 16-bit data as far as its sound quality and actual numeric precision.

And I suspect that any 24-bit audio data being sent back to the PSR-E would be converted to 16-bit data.

The standard for pro audio would be 96khz 24bit audio..  as is supported by the Montage..
Keyszone.boards.net for all the latest keyboard news and information.
 

Offline SeaGtGruff

The standard for pro audio would be 96khz 24bit audio..  as is supported by the Montage..

Well, I checked the release notes for the Yamaha Steinberg USB driver, and one of the notes about changes made in an earlier version said that the driver now supports 32-bit audio. I didn't see any mention of kHz.

But regardless of what the USB driver is capable of handling, the specs for the PSR-E models which have a built-in audio interface clearly say that they use 44.1 kHz, 16-bit, stereo. If those keyboards' built-in audio interfaces were capable of better audio than that, I'm pretty sure Yamaha would have said so.

As for the synths, I couldn't find any mention of rates and bit depths for their built-in audio interfaces on the main Yamaha USA web site, although I didn't check to see if anything was mentioned in their manuals.

But there are references to 16 bits where the sound samples are mentioned:

https://usa.yamaha.com/products/music_production/synthesizers/montage/specs.html#product-tabs

Quote
| Wave | Preset: 5.67 GB (when converted to 16 bit linear format), User: 1.75 GB |
Michael Rideout
Current keyboards: Yamaha YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443, PSR-EW400, MX49 BK
Current controllers: M-Audio Axiom 61-II
Previous keyboards: Farfisa Matador 611; Casio CTK-710
 
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Offline SeaGtGruff

Given that I was the person who first raised the suggestions/questions related to the sample rate and bit depth of the audio, I decided to dig further into the manuals.

And given that most of the people on this forum are more interested in the MONTAGE and Genos than the PSR-E models, I restricted myself to the MONTAGE Owner's Manual and Genos Owner's Manual. I searched those manuals for "bit" and came up with the following hits:

MONTAGE Owner's Manual

Page 4:
"The MONTAGE is loaded with 5 GB (in 16-bit linear format) of preset Advanced Wave memory (AWM2)"

Page 41:
"Your performances on the MONTAGE can be recorded as WAV format (44.1-kHz, 24-bit, stereo) audio files to a USB flash memory device."

Page 63:
"Waveforms   Preset: 5.67 GB (when converted to 16-bit linear format), User: 1.75 GB"

Genos Owner's Manual

Page 73:
"WAV....... 44.1 kHz sample rate, 16 bit resolution, stereo"

Page 90:
"Since it is saved in stereo WAV format of normal CD quality resolution (44.1kHz/16-bit) by default, it can be transmitted to and played on portable music players by using a computer."

Page 109:
"Use this connector to output digital signals via a coaxial (RCA-pin) cable. The digital signal format is CD/DAT (S/PDIF). This connector outputs a digital signal of 44.1 kHz/24 bit."

Page 123:
"Songs (Audio) | Format | Playback | WAV (44.1kHz, 16bit, stereo), MP3 (44.1kHz, 64/96/128/256/320kbps, stereo)"
"Songs (Audio) | Format | Recording | WAV (44.1kHz, 16bit, stereo)"
"Songs (Audio) | Format | Playback (Multi) | .aud (Genos original: 44.1 kHz sample rate, 16 bit resolution, stereo)"
"Songs (Audio) | Format | Recording (Multi) | .aud (Genos original: 44.1 kHz sample rate, 16 bit resolution, stereo)"

That still doesn't explicitly answer whether the MONTAGE transmits 16-bit audio or something higher (presumably 24-bit) over its USB-TO-HOST connection, but it does output 24-bit WAV audio over its USB-TO-DEVICE connection.

And the Genos does output 24-bit audio over its coaxial digital audio connection, but it apparently outputs 16-bit WAV audio over its USB-TO-DEVICE connection when recording to a USB flash drive-- except there's the curious inclusion of the words "by default" on page 90, which raises the question of whether the user can specify something other than the default?
Michael Rideout
Current keyboards: Yamaha YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443, PSR-EW400, MX49 BK
Current controllers: M-Audio Axiom 61-II
Previous keyboards: Farfisa Matador 611; Casio CTK-710
 
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Offline voodoo

Given that I was the person who first raised the suggestions/questions related to the sample rate and bit depth of the audio, I decided to dig further into the manuals.

Thank you for this deep overview. :)

Uli
Yamaha Genos (finally)
Nord Electro 5D
 

Offline pjd


Hi --

OK, since Michael had to go there... (Montage)  :)  :)  :)

After going through a few service manuals, Montage audio is at a whole 'nother level than Genos. Hardware-wise, Montage has a processor (SSP2) and a gate array IC dedicated to audio routing. The Genos does not have this extra hardware.

For the real nerds, audio is routed on serial busses in I2C format compatible with the ADCs and DACs. This is true of both Genos and Montage. Montage, however, is capable of higher bit rates and sampling frequencies. The Montage serial clock speed is a multiple of 48kHz, allowing it to send 44.1kHz extending all the way up to 192kHz. 24-bit all the way through in Montage and (mostly) Genos.

Thus, in the Montage Reference manual, one finds the Audio I/O Mode settings for the A/D input (page 168):

    16 Stereo/44.1kHz: Audio data sending capability for the instrument is a
    maximum 32 channels (16 stereo channels) at a sampling frequency of
    44.1 kHz.

    4 Stereo/44.1-192kHz: Audio data sending capability for the instrument is
    a maximum 8 channels (4 stereo channels) for a sampling frequency of
    44.1 kHz to 192 kHz.

    NOTE When "4 Stereo/44.1-192kHz" is selected, available frequencies are
    only 44.1 kHz, 48 kHz, 96 kHz, and 192 kHz.

Since the bandwidth on the internal audio busses is limited, fewer stereo channels are available at the higher sampling frequencies.

Yamaha advertise: "MONTAGE's powerful USB driver can send 16 and receive 3 channels of STEREO 24 bit/44.1 kHz digital audio to/from your computer or iOS device (MONTAGE is class compliant, no driver needed!), no other hardware required. MONTAGE supports the sampling rate up to 192 kHz. The USB connection also features full MIDI support of 16 channels."

Getting back to the question, no, Genos does not have an audio interface like Montage.

Hope this helps the discussion -- pj
 
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Offline Bachus

Hi --

OK, since Michael had to go there... (Montage)  :)  :)  :)

After going through a few service manuals, Montage audio is at a whole 'nother level than Genos. Hardware-wise, Montage has a processor (SSP2) and a gate array IC dedicated to audio routing. The Genos does not have this extra hardware.

For the real nerds, audio is routed on serial busses in I2C format compatible with the ADCs and DACs. This is true of both Genos and Montage. Montage, however, is capable of higher bit rates and sampling frequencies. The Montage serial clock speed is a multiple of 48kHz, allowing it to send 44.1kHz extending all the way up to 192kHz. 24-bit all the way through in Montage and (mostly) Genos.

Thus, in the Montage Reference manual, one finds the Audio I/O Mode settings for the A/D input (page 168):

    16 Stereo/44.1kHz: Audio data sending capability for the instrument is a
    maximum 32 channels (16 stereo channels) at a sampling frequency of
    44.1 kHz.

    4 Stereo/44.1-192kHz: Audio data sending capability for the instrument is
    a maximum 8 channels (4 stereo channels) for a sampling frequency of
    44.1 kHz to 192 kHz.

    NOTE When "4 Stereo/44.1-192kHz" is selected, available frequencies are
    only 44.1 kHz, 48 kHz, 96 kHz, and 192 kHz.

Since the bandwidth on the internal audio busses is limited, fewer stereo channels are available at the higher sampling frequencies.

Yamaha advertise: "MONTAGE's powerful USB driver can send 16 and receive 3 channels of STEREO 24 bit/44.1 kHz digital audio to/from your computer or iOS device (MONTAGE is class compliant, no driver needed!), no other hardware required. MONTAGE supports the sampling rate up to 192 kHz. The USB connection also features full MIDI support of 16 channels."

Getting back to the question, no, Genos does not have an audio interface like Montage.

Hope this helps the discussion -- pj

Thanks PJ for clearing things up..
I allways tought the PPS2 processor was only for converting digital to analogue and vice versa...

Yet still think it would have been a great feature on Genos too...
Keyszone.boards.net for all the latest keyboard news and information.
 

Offline pjd

Hi Bachus --

Thanks!

The SSP2 is quite a versatile processor. It is the hardware sound engine in the Yamaha Reface DX and Reface CS and it handles vocal harmony processing in the S950.

More relevant to the point, the SSP2 is the heart of the Steinberg UR Series. So, the Montage is like a keyboard with an embedded UR (in some sense).

All the best to ya -- pj

https://www.steinberg.net/en/products/audio_interfaces/ur_series/product_development_story.html
 

Online soundphase

I think Yamaha considers that works on digital sounds must be done on an external PC and then integrated on Genos through Yem or wave files stored on USB.

On the other hand, the digital output allows to export results with a good quality .

As a big number of Genos users want to seat and play, it seems to me to be a good combination for the price.