Author Topic: Break button timing  (Read 1711 times)

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Offline Lee Batchelor

Break button timing
« on: June 13, 2018, 09:39:44 PM »
Hi team,

Something I have always wrestled with on my PSR, Tyros, and now Genos keyboards is the Break button timing. I set up my Main Variation buttons to trigger at the beginning of the next bar. (I think this is actually a default setting.) When I press the Break button, I almost always only capture part of the full break. It's as though the Break button is set to trigger the break sequence in real time, not at the beginning of the bar where you want it. In other words, it seems to behave differently than the Main Variation buttons. I could get it to work, but I would really need to retrain myself to press it at just the right time. It's sad too because the breaks are very nicely designed.

The same behavior seems true for Ending I. I can never get it to trigger the way the Endings II and III do.

Opinions?
Current Gear: Genos, SoundCraft mixer, two Bose L1 Compacts, 15 inch sub designed and built by myself, Yamaha HS8 studio monitors, Cubase 8 Artist, Steinberg UR-44.
 

Offline voodoo

Re: Break button timing
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2018, 10:00:54 PM »
Hi Lee,

I always do it the following way: press the break button any time and hold it until the next bar starts. Then you will get the full break.

Uli
Yamaha Genos
Yamaha MODX7
Nord Electro 5D
 

Offline Lee Batchelor

Re: Break button timing
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2018, 11:16:41 PM »
Thanks Uli. That does work, but if you press Break on beat 3 in Bar 3 but you want the break to take place in only Bar 4, you end up with two beats of Bar 3 having a partial break and Bar 4 having a full break. I know some drummers will do just that but most put breaks in at the beginning of a bar.

Great idea though!
Current Gear: Genos, SoundCraft mixer, two Bose L1 Compacts, 15 inch sub designed and built by myself, Yamaha HS8 studio monitors, Cubase 8 Artist, Steinberg UR-44.
 

Offline maartenb

Re: Break button timing
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2018, 11:23:26 PM »
How do you set your Fills so that they start at the next bar? As far as I know, both the Variation and Break work in real time, so start immediately.

Timing and result
  • Press the button between the 4.5 and 1.5 count: you get the full break/fill (drums and instruments)
  • Press the button after count 1.5 and before 4.5: you get a partial break/fill (only drums; the instruments stay the same as normal)

I think this time window for triggering a full fill/break is unfortunate. It would be much easier if the window was between count 4 and 1. This gives the player a bit more time to trigger a full fill/break and move the left hand back to play a new chord on count 1. And, it eliminates the ugly cut off of instruments when you trigger a full fill/break when you are a tad late by pressing the button just after count 1.


Maarten
 

Offline Lee Batchelor

Re: Break button timing
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2018, 12:04:19 AM »
Agreed Maarten.

For the longest time, I've thought it was pilot error on my part. There's a distinct difference in the behavior of the Main Variation buttons versus the Break button.

If you press Break right on the 1 beat, a full break plays, but the Main Variations seem more forgiving in that they are quantized to the nearest beat, that is, you can be a tad early and they don't trigger a partial fill - not so for the Breaks. Why not?
Current Gear: Genos, SoundCraft mixer, two Bose L1 Compacts, 15 inch sub designed and built by myself, Yamaha HS8 studio monitors, Cubase 8 Artist, Steinberg UR-44.
 

Offline panos

Re: Break button timing
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2018, 02:00:12 AM »
Usually after the break button I need to use the next variation
so if I am in Main A,
I press the Main B at count 3 or 4 and the keyboard plays the fill in of B
for 1 or 2 counts (I use auto fill in button enable for this)
and I press the break at count 1 just at the right time of the next bar to avoid the repeatedness of the break pattern (when I can).

Same If I don't want to change Main A after the break,
I press fill in A at count 3(or 4) and keep it pressed until count 4 and then Break at count 1.

If there are 3 counts untill the break I can press Main A at count 2,Main B at count 3,Main A again at count 4 and finally break at count 1.
(in order to have more "interesting" pattern and also easier for my mind to count the beats)
   
Sorry for the way I have written this,I know it is hard to read and understand
but in general you can use different variations of the Main buttons before pressing the Break or Ending 1 button at the right time if you have the Auto fill in button ON.

« Last Edit: June 14, 2018, 02:22:54 AM by panos »
 

Offline Lee Batchelor

Re: Break button timing
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2018, 03:02:48 AM »
No need to apologize, Panos. I understand you and thanks for the reply.

It seems the Break button is difficult to time when used just by itself. The Main Variations are easy because of the Auto Fill In function, which quantizes the timing. I think (actually I now know!) the Break button is strictly a real time button. Perhaps Yamaha did it that way on purpose so that if we wanted what drummers call a "shot," we can use the Break button for that purpose too. If we time it right, we can do a full break. I guess I need some practice. It would be nice if the Break button was configurable to either real time or "next bar" like the Main Variations.
Current Gear: Genos, SoundCraft mixer, two Bose L1 Compacts, 15 inch sub designed and built by myself, Yamaha HS8 studio monitors, Cubase 8 Artist, Steinberg UR-44.
 

Offline DrakeM

Re: Break button timing
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2018, 04:40:20 AM »
I am not sure if this will work in the song style you trying to set up but I have moved the BREAK and stuck in the FILL IN slot on a couple of songs. I am doing a verse and there is always a break before going to the chorus. Just a another way to free up your left hand a bit.

And if your break needs to be a bit longer pause than one measure, just stick the Break into an ENDING slot. Let the style end, you can wait just a bit and still hit a MAIN to start the song style going again. The style does not completely stop. I have used this trick on a few songs are well.

There is one song I do, I hit the ending to do the break, then hit the BREAK to do a drum roll to get back into the song, then Hit the INTRO #1 to set off a special riff to start back into the song and continue back to a regular Main for the verse again.

There is always a work around to just about anything. It sometimes takes a bit to figure out how but I always have.  ;)

Regards
Drake
« Last Edit: June 14, 2018, 04:53:29 AM by DrakeM »
 

Offline Lee Batchelor

Re: Break button timing
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2018, 05:04:10 AM »
Thanks Drake! This is what the forum is all about :).
Current Gear: Genos, SoundCraft mixer, two Bose L1 Compacts, 15 inch sub designed and built by myself, Yamaha HS8 studio monitors, Cubase 8 Artist, Steinberg UR-44.
 

Offline maartenb

Re: Break button timing
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2018, 04:45:02 PM »
The Main Variations are easy because of the Auto Fill In function, which quantizes the timing.

I don't understand why you say fills are quantized. They are not. They are real time buttons, just as the Break button. There's no difference in timing in triggering fills or breaks.

I will try at my Genos when I have the time to test your theory. But at this time I am still convinced about the timing I wrote above. The reason why I am confident about this, is that I tested this extensively with the Tyros 4 and Tyros 5.

The only exception to the timing rules are the Audio styles on the Tyros 5. Their window for triggering a full fill/break is earlier: between beat 4 and 1.


Maarten
 

Offline Lee Batchelor

Re: Break button timing
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2018, 07:52:28 PM »
Of course. What was I thinking? "Quantize" is misleading. I meant that the trigger for the fills always waits until the previous bar is complete, and then the fill occurs on the next bar. Breaks trigger the moment you press the Break button. I'm still having trouble believing that fills and breaks are identical in their actions. They are different. My Genos is packed for a gig. When I'm back, I'll give it another try. Thanks Maarten.
Current Gear: Genos, SoundCraft mixer, two Bose L1 Compacts, 15 inch sub designed and built by myself, Yamaha HS8 studio monitors, Cubase 8 Artist, Steinberg UR-44.
 

Offline Toril S

Re: Break button timing
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2018, 07:56:21 PM »
I find that both auto fill in and break button operate a little differently in some styles, they limp along in an uneven way, so I have to turn it off. Maybe I am a little slow in my timing? Or maybe it is the styles. Most of the time it works as intended.
Toril S

PSR S970, PSR 2100 and PSR-47.

Toril's PSR Performer Page
 

Offline Lee Batchelor

Re: Break button timing
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2018, 08:02:52 PM »
Agreed, Toril. I can't quite pin it down, but there is a difference! Perhaps it is dependent on what style is used. All I know is, I seldom achieve a full break when I press the Break button in the same timing as the Fill buttons. I'm certainly not saying this is a bug because all my Yamaha arranger keyboards have worked this way. The two functions just behave differently.
Current Gear: Genos, SoundCraft mixer, two Bose L1 Compacts, 15 inch sub designed and built by myself, Yamaha HS8 studio monitors, Cubase 8 Artist, Steinberg UR-44.
 

Offline panos

Re: Break button timing
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2018, 09:16:03 PM »
If you need to test and understand better how those fills and breaks work,
just slow down the tempo of the style to 40 bpm or even less and experiment with the timing to see what they really do in each style.

Offline voodoo

Re: Break button timing
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2018, 10:06:28 PM »
I don't understand why you say fills are quantized. They are not. They are real time buttons, just as the Break button. There's no difference in timing in triggering fills or breaks.

I have to agree Maarten. The timing of break and auto fill is equal:

* when you press main variation button in the middle of a bar, you get a half bar fill.
* when you press main variation button at the beginning of a bar, you get a full bar fill

The fill always starts immediately. So that's equal to the break button behaviour.

Uli
Yamaha Genos
Yamaha MODX7
Nord Electro 5D
 

Offline Lee Batchelor

Re: Break button timing
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2018, 01:15:35 AM »
Thanks for the input folks. I will do what Panos mentioned - slow the tempo to a crawl and really listen. It's probably pilot error :(!
Current Gear: Genos, SoundCraft mixer, two Bose L1 Compacts, 15 inch sub designed and built by myself, Yamaha HS8 studio monitors, Cubase 8 Artist, Steinberg UR-44.
 

Offline Toril S

Re: Break button timing
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2018, 03:21:06 AM »
Yes, great advice, Panos! Will do also😋
Toril S

PSR S970, PSR 2100 and PSR-47.

Toril's PSR Performer Page
 

Offline maartenb

Re: Break button timing
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2018, 05:04:13 PM »
"Quantize" is misleading.

Well, I understood perfectly what you meant, so it worked!  ;)


the trigger for the fills always waits until the previous bar is complete

I my experience, they do not wait. They start immediately.

Let's try with an example. Let's use this Genos style: Pop --> P5 --> Live8Beat --> Variation B

Now try to trigger a fill or a break. With a full fill, the instruments play differently from a partial fill (which only affects the drum).

Recap:
  • Press the button after count 1.5 and before 4.5: you get a partial break/fill (only drums; the instruments stay the same as normal)
  • Press the button between the 4.5 and 1.5 count: you get the full break/fill (drums and instruments)

Let me know what your experiences are!


Maarten
 

Offline voodoo

Re: Break button timing
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2018, 05:26:46 PM »
I my experience, they do not wait. They start immediately.

Let me know what your experiences are!

Exactly as you say. Fill always starts immediately.

Uli
Yamaha Genos
Yamaha MODX7
Nord Electro 5D
 

Offline RF

Re: Break button timing
« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2018, 07:29:54 PM »
Usually, I use the break as kind of additional fill in. When I want it completely, I copy it to one of the intros, so it will be played completely and I have no surprises, when I may hit the break button late.
Kind regards
Ronny F
--------------
Bose L1 compact,  HK Audio Lucas nano 300, LD Systems MAUI 5
I had Tyros 1/2, Korg Micro Arranger, Roland E50, D110,  Technics KN 5/6000, Bohm Station 2, Wersi MK 1, Yamaha PSR 8/9000, SQ 16, DSR 2000
 
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Offline maartenb

Re: Break button timing
« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2018, 08:29:59 PM »
That's a clever trick, Ronny! Thanks,


Maarten
 

Offline RF

Re: Break button timing
« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2018, 08:33:06 PM »
With audio styles I can use this trick only, when Intro 1 has one bar only and I can live with the count in. And when I store the edited style to the user drive.
Kind regards
Ronny F
--------------
Bose L1 compact,  HK Audio Lucas nano 300, LD Systems MAUI 5
I had Tyros 1/2, Korg Micro Arranger, Roland E50, D110,  Technics KN 5/6000, Bohm Station 2, Wersi MK 1, Yamaha PSR 8/9000, SQ 16, DSR 2000