Author Topic: Using an external controller for live control  (Read 1702 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline DerekA

Using an external controller for live control
« on: May 17, 2018, 04:46:45 AM »
The Genos has a bunch of assignable faders and knobs.

You can buy products like the Korg nanoKONTROL which are designd to work with DAWs. Do you think that these would work with PSR / Tyros? For example assigning a slider/knob to control reverb or DSP depth on th panel voices  without having to navigate to the right page on the mixer?

The data manual lists the MIDI format, and it does have messages related to reverb depth, but I'm not clued up enough on the details

http://www.korg.com/uk/products/computergear/nanokontrol2/
Tyros5
 

Offline Joe H

Re: Using an external controller for live control
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2018, 11:29:36 AM »
DerekA,

I don't consider those controllers a very serious tool.  But that's because I have a legacy Peavey PC1600x MIDI hardware controller and have been doing just that for many years.

The answer to your question is... YES! I do this all the time with my sound modules and S970 keyboard. You have to create a special MIDI Receive configuration though to use an external controller. Depends on what you wish to control... style parts, Multi Pads, song files, R1 / R2, Left, etc.

These Behringer controllers might be a better choice: 

https://www.americanmusical.com/Item--i-BEH-XTOUCHCOMPACT?src=Y0802G00SRCHCAPN&adpos=1o5&scid=scplpBEH+XTOUCHCOMPACT&sc_intid=BEH+XTOUCHCOMPACT&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIhPTzxNeL2wIVB4RpCh104w7kEAQYBSABEgKxpPD_BwE

https://reverb.com/p/behringer-bcf2000-usb-midi-controller-desk?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIhPTzxNeL2wIVB4RpCh104w7kEAQYBCABEgKDkPD_BwE&hfid=12177668

https://reverb.com/item/10678796-behringer-b-control-bcf2000-usb-midi-daw-fader-controller-2008-black

I believe they make a controller with standard 5 pin DIN MIDI ports as well as USB.

Joe H
« Last Edit: May 30, 2018, 11:13:14 PM by Joe H »
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline DerekA

Re: Using an external controller for live control
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2018, 08:28:03 PM »
That's very useful Joe, thanks
Tyros5
 

Offline Joe H

Re: Using an external controller for live control
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2018, 11:13:15 PM »
Derek,

 I suggest you do some homework and sort out your needs/wants then shop around for the controller that will do the job for you.  I'm a bit spoiled by both the Peavey PC1600x and my Motif Rack XS.

The PC1600x needs to be programmed by hexadecimal strings so that means it's totally "open ended" to program ANY MIDI message. And I have a 3rd party PC based editor which makes it easier to program and store my different setups.

The Motif Rack has encoder knobs which not only allow smooth changes, but also displays the original value and the changed value.  The 5 knobs allow me to select 20 different predefined parameters.  Which is much easier than having to write hexadecimal strings.

Joe H
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 11:14:35 PM by Joe H »
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline DerekA

Re: Using an external controller for live control
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2018, 01:15:57 AM »
I have a fairly simple use case - I want to send various CC messages to L, R1, R2, R3 to mimic live control on reverb depth / DSP depth / cutoff / resonance, and I don't have a lot of space for a large controller. From the Tyros manual I see I can set e.g. L to receive CC messages on channel 1, R1 to receive on channel 2 etc. Then I can set up the midi controller to send out those CC on the right channels.

So far so good.

I have a question though about connecting things together. This Korg controller has a single USB mini B connection. The Tyros has two USB A 'to device' which will carry power/data but I'm not sure if they will carry MIDI. It also has one USB B 'to host' which will carry MIDI but I'm not sure if it will carry power to the controller.

Any advice on whether it will work or not would be appreciated.
Tyros5
 

Offline tyrosaurus

Re: Using an external controller for live control
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2018, 05:21:08 AM »
Hi Derek,

I can't say for certain that such devices will work with a keyboard directly.

I have never seen any posts on forums saying that they can be used successfully.  Everything that I can remember seeing over the years (they have been around for some time from Korg and Akai for example), seems to suggest that they can't!

I know that JoeH uses his Peavey device with a his instruments, but I don't know if he does this via a computer.

However these devices are designed to be used as cheap control interfaces for a DAW on a computer, which implies that they expect to find a USB Host at the other end of their cable, and possibly require a driver installed in the host device (computer)!

I would have thought that given the low price of them, if anyone had confirmed that they can be used with a keyboard, many people would be using them.  Maybe the issue is just that they require power over USB, I don't know.

Certainly from what I have seen to date, I have not been tempted to buy one just to play around with, even at their low prices!

I will be watching this thread with interest however, just in case you or someone else manages to clarify the situation.

I'm sorry that I couldn't be more help to you about this.


Regards

Ian
 

Offline DerekA

Re: Using an external controller for live control
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2018, 07:20:11 PM »
No problem Ian. Maybe I will buy one and see if it works or not, then post back what happened.
Tyros5
 

Offline Kevin Sanders

  • Supporter
  • Asst. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 29
  • Total likes: 6
  • It may not be your way but it is a way.
Re: Using an external controller for live control
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2018, 08:37:42 PM »
I use an old P60 piano to control my PSR S910 and it is very effective. I simply assign it to channel 1 and give it “keyboard”. All the functionality of the Psr is available through the p60.
What was a little surprising though, was that when you switch the P60 to internal control, it maps the correct voicing on th PSR. This is not the P60 voices “playing through” the PSR, there is no audio connection, only MIDI.
I’m very pleased with it. Also, the sustain pedal on the piano works on all sustainable voices on the PSR, too.
In addition, I have a KX25 hooked in to play the second voice of the PSR and all the modifiers act on that voice until a new one is selected. Playing live, this is very, very useful for me. It means, for instance, that I can have grand piano selected for left and right 1 with say, nice flute on right 2 and be able to play flute with or without piano on the right with no tortured selecting going on.
I think there is enormous scope for live performances using external controls. I even have a DD65 drum set feeding in to play the style’s kit1. Brilliant, but you have to get someone else to ply the drums if you want it live LOL.
I think this level of compatibility is only possible using all Yamaha instruments, but I may be wrong as the first 128 MIDI voices should be standard across manufacturers.
I hope this helps.
PSR S-910, P-60, DD-65, KX-25, CS2X
 

Offline Joe H

Re: Using an external controller for live control
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2018, 12:09:11 AM »
... I know that Joe H uses his Peavey device with a his instruments, but I don't know if he does this via a computer...

Regards

Ian

I strictly use the dedicated MIDI Ports because I have several sound modules, the hardware controller, a Breath Controller processor from MIDI Solutions, a hardware sequencer, and my PC all connected via a programmable 8 In and 8 Out MIDI patch-bay... which can be re-configured at will.

I suggest staying with an external controller that has actual MIDI ports and not USB-MIDI.  The important thing is to create a special MIDI configuration on the keyboard with the correct MIDI Transmit / Receive settings (and maybe) Local Off, depending on how you wish to work.

Joe H
« Last Edit: May 24, 2018, 12:13:02 AM by Joe H »
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline DerekA

Re: Using an external controller for live control
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2018, 12:54:54 AM »
I suggest staying with an external controller that has actual MIDI ports and not USB-MIDI.

Yes I suspect you will be right ...
Tyros5
 

Offline SeaGtGruff

Re: Using an external controller for live control
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2018, 04:47:57 AM »
Derek, you can use a USB connection for the MIDI, but the USB device(s) must be connected to a USB host.

For example, if you want to connect a USB-MIDI device to a MIDI device, the USB-MIDI device must go to a USB host, then the USB host must use a MIDI connection to go to the MIDI device. In what is probably the most common situation, the USB-MIDI device is connected to a computer (which acts as the USB host), and the MIDI device is connected to the computer using a simple MIDI-to-USB adaptor. Fortunately, there are standalone MIDI USB hosts available from a few different companies, and certain USB audio/MIDI interfaces can also act as USB hosts. But you cannot use a simple MIDI-to-USB adaptor cable to directly connect a USB-MIDI device to a MIDI device, because then there is no USB host between them.

Likewise, you cannot use a simple USB A-to-B cable to directly connect two USB-MIDI devices together, for the same reason.

If you want to directly connect two MIDI devices without needing to purchase any other equipment or go through a computer, MIDI-to-MIDI using the MIDI DIN ports is the way to go.
Michael Rideout
Current keyboards: Yamaha YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443, PSR-EW400, MX49 BK
Current controllers: M-Audio Axiom 61-II
Previous keyboards: Farfisa Matador 611; Casio CTK-710
 

Offline DerekA

Re: Using an external controller for live control
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2018, 05:06:53 AM »
Thank you Michael that is very useful indeed.

A standalone MIDI host costs more than the Korg controller I was looking at.

So, maybe I should investigate something that uses the DIN ports as you've suggested.
Tyros5
 

Offline ugawoga

Re: Using an external controller for live control
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2018, 07:53:06 AM »
Hi
My Phatboy controller still works 100%.
 

Offline Kevin Sanders

  • Supporter
  • Asst. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 29
  • Total likes: 6
  • It may not be your way but it is a way.
Re: Using an external controller for live control
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2018, 12:34:49 AM »
Derek, you can use a USB connection for the MIDI, but the USB device(s) must be connected to a USB host.

If you want to directly connect two MIDI devices without needing to purchase any other equipment or go through a computer, MIDI-to-MIDI using the MIDI DIN ports is the way to go.


All my devices are connected through the DIN sockets. To connect everything I need to with the PSR S910 I use a MIDI Merge box - not to be confused with a MIDI mixer - and to go the other way I use the ‘MIDI through’ connectors. Somehow it all works.
PSR S-910, P-60, DD-65, KX-25, CS2X
 

Offline alka

Re: Using an external controller for live control
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2018, 09:06:58 PM »
The Genos has a bunch of assignable faders and knobs.

Hi DerekA, You can have a lot more assignable faders and knobs than Genos, using iPad, MD-BT01 or UD-BT01 or usb camera connection kit and Midi designer 2  http://mididesigner.com/.

With this app You can control many parameters in live wirelessly (MD-BT01, UD-BT01). Any faders, crossfaders, buttons, knobs have learn function.
 

Offline ugawoga

Re: Using an external controller for live control
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2018, 04:00:29 AM »
Hi derek

Yes ,There are units like Nano control etc and other mid controllers that will give you all the physical knobs that you want.
They will work with most Daws.
I have an old Phat boy controller which I can use with Cubase or Bandlab. That old box can give me up to  5 X 13 knobs If assigned In 5 sections using the same 13 knobs.

Atb
John
 

Offline DerekA

Re: Using an external controller for live control
« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2018, 07:03:56 PM »
Thanks for the replies.

I don't have any Apple devices so I can't use that software.

As for physical knobs, sounds like I'd need a standalone USB host to avoid using the laptop. I will think about it a bit more.
Tyros5
 

Offline pjd

Re: Using an external controller for live control
« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2018, 10:07:01 PM »
Hi Derek --

"Standalone USB host" rang a bell. I've experimented with Raspberry Pi for MIDI sequencing and bridging. The RPi is an inexpensive way to go and Linux handles class compliant MIDI interfaces and devices pretty well. (See links below.)

The downside so far is lack of gig-worthy solution, i.e., something that's easy to transport. I'm considering a CEED pi-top for a portable solution.

Hope this helps -- pj

http://sandsoftwaresound.net/send-midi-from-usb-b-to-5-pin/
http://sandsoftwaresound.net/tutorial-soft-synths-linux-rpi/
 

Offline DerekA

Re: Using an external controller for live control
« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2018, 12:59:43 AM »
Thanks pj. My daughter got the offer of a Pi from school a few years ago, but she wasn't interested (!) and I didn't think I could devote time to learning how to use it.

I didn't want to use my Windows laptop, but I think it would work if I ran something that essentially just listened for MIDI IN on one USB port and pushed it straight back out on another one.

MIDI OX looks promising.

http://www.midiox.com/
Tyros5
 

Offline jsb1999

Re: Using an external controller for live control
« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2018, 02:35:48 AM »
The Kenton USB Midi Host has worked well for me (standalone, portable) if one device is DIN and one is USB. ($110-$139)
(Seaboard Roli Block to Genos in my case)
« Last Edit: May 30, 2018, 02:42:11 AM by jsb1999 »
 

Offline SeaGtGruff

Re: Using an external controller for live control
« Reply #20 on: May 30, 2018, 05:15:45 AM »
MIDI-OX works great as a simple MIDI router. You can easily route between devices, or devices and virtual instruments, etc. :)
Michael Rideout
Current keyboards: Yamaha YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443, PSR-EW400, MX49 BK
Current controllers: M-Audio Axiom 61-II
Previous keyboards: Farfisa Matador 611; Casio CTK-710
 

Offline DerekA

Re: Using an external controller for live control
« Reply #21 on: May 30, 2018, 08:29:49 PM »
So .. I decided to give it a shot, and I have got it work albeit using the laptop.

As expected, plugging the controller straight into the Tyros didn't work. Using the 'USB to device' supplied power but no MIDI, using the 'USB to host' didn't supply power.

I connected a USB hub with 4 ports to the laptop, then connected the controller and the Tyros to the hub. I ran MIDI OX on the laptop, and it detected both the controller and the two MIDI ports on the Tyros. As Michael said, it was really simple to set up a routing in MIDI OX taking the controller as input and the Tyros as output. I checked on the 'MIDI setup' pages on the Tyros to make sure messages were being received when I used the controller.

I configured the controller to assign different CC numbers and channels to the physical controls, which was very easy using the software that came with it - reverb depth on channel 1 on slider 1, reverb depth on channel 2 on slider 2, filter cutoff on channel 1 to knob 1 etc. Then I configured the Tyros to route received CC messages on channel 1 to voice L, CC on channel 2 to voice R1, etc.

This setup did achieve what I wanted - a cheap, small, set of live controls (limited to standard CC messages only). The compromise was I had to route through a laptop which means more wires trailing around. If I get used to it, I may try a standalone external host as others have suggested.

Thanks to everyone for their advice - and especially Michael.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2018, 08:31:04 PM by DerekA »
Tyros5
 

Offline markstyles

Re: Using an external controller for live control
« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2018, 11:34:18 PM »
Hi..  I've purchased a Roli Seaboard. It's an odd keyboard that puts out 5 midi outputs.. and these can be assigned to any CC#.. So If I run this thru my DAW (Logic Pro, will it send the extra MIDI CC's.. and can I assign them to different functions (filter, detune, chorus strength on the Genos?).. I seem to remember coming across a page in Genos, that allowed extra parameters to be controlled.  but I couldn't figure out how to get my controller into Genos (I had a senior moment remembering I could send it thru my DAW.

I use USB midi, but I can also send my usb midi to a RMI Fireface box, that outputs MIDI din.. It appears to me the Genos can only look at one MIDI input at a time.  Am I correct in assuming this?
« Last Edit: June 25, 2018, 11:36:46 PM by markstyles »