Author Topic: Is it possible to export Packs FROM the keyboard TO Yamaha Expansion Manager?  (Read 1207 times)

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Offline valio7771

Hi everyone!

So, I'm having the following problem:
I recently had to change my computer because my old one got broken and lost a lot of data due to a faulty hard drive.
I've installed the latest version of YEM on my new computer, and now I want to get my Expansion Packs from my Tyros 5 into YEM, in the same state that they are currently installed on the keyboard, because I end up editing them heavily during the last 3 years of work with the keyboard (edit individual sounds within a Pack, removed the ones I don't need, merged or grouped few different Packs into one,..etc) in manner that I find more convenient for me to use them. Since YEM can't see/read what Packs are currently installed just by connecting the keyboard through USB, now I can't find a way to export my custom packs from my keyboard back to the YEM, so I can keep edit them from the current point, if I need to do so.

And apparently I've also lost all the original .ppf files for all the initial Packs with my old computer, most of which packs I got from other fellow Yamaha players that I communicate on different forums or randomly found on internet, and now (even though it would be an absolute nightmare to match the exact same order of each sound with it's individual MSB# and LSB#, because I've used many of those sounds in my styles and MIDI's) I can't compile them from scratch.
YEM does not accept .ppi files, which is the only copy of my Packs installation I have on a USB stick, of which I'm not so sure how recent is judging by the 'last edit' date.

I am a technical person and I usually find my way around such issues, but there maybe something crucial that I'm missing here, or I'm overthinking the whole situation by looking at it as something more complicated than it actually is, or there is really NO way to do that (of what I'm very afraid of).
Any help is highly appreciated.

Thank you in advance!

Sincerely,

Valentin
 

Offline jwyvern

hi
valentin,
In the My Packs screen does your Ty5 show at top left, if so click on it and the pack data should transfer from Tyros into YEM.
If not click on the plus sign next to Install Target, then Search Instruments and YEM should find and highlight Tyros provided it is connected and switched on. Then click on the latter.
John
 

Offline Bill

Hi Valentin

Although John is more knowledgeable that I am, I did not think it possible to export packs from the Tyros back into the YEM.
Yes you can copy the styles, pads and registrations form the Tyros, however you will not be able to copy the Wav Elements to use again.

Regards

Bill
England

GENOS
 

Offline valio7771

Thanks John,

I really wish if it was that simple...

YEM is empty after the fresh installation.
After 'Search Instruments' under 'Install Target' YEM just finds that there is Tyros5 connected to it, but appears as it has nothing installed on it whatsoever.
Even after importing of a newly created TYROS5_InstrumentInfo.n27 file on the keyboard, I was hoping to trigger YEM to figure out what's installed on the keyboard, but it made no change at all, it still won't import the installed packs.

Valentin
« Last Edit: May 15, 2018, 03:24:55 PM by valio7771 »
 

Offline valio7771

....I did not think it possible to export packs from the Tyros back into the YEM.....

I'm afraid you're right, Bill.

That is a MASSIVE flaw in general way how Yamaha tries to push everything through YEM.
It's like if you have an iPhone/iPad, and if you sync your device with your new PC/Mac, you will lose everything you've bought so far (apps, music, books...etc), this is just ridiculous.
I cannot find a single logical reason why there should be 'one way flow' between the keyboard and the software? It can't be a 'Copyright' thing since one of the perks of using YEM was a way to edit and share your sounds with others, so it couldn't be that.

WHY THOUGH?  :'(
« Last Edit: May 15, 2018, 03:35:54 PM by valio7771 »
 

Offline pjd

Hello Valentin --

I feel your pain.  :'(

I'm not a Tyros 5 user, but the first thought that came to mind is to back-up everything on your Tyros 5 immediately. If I were in the same situation, I would get a new USB flash drive and manually copy everything that I could find on the Tyros 5 (Owner's Manual, page 32). I'd look in the USER drive and HD drive.

Another possible route is the Yamaha Music Downloader application for direct transfer over USB.

As mentioned, this won't save the waveform data (samples). However, it might save the edits that you made.

Hope this helps and please keep your chin up -- pj
 

Offline valio7771

Hi pj,

I'm not using any styles or Registrations from the packs, I only use the sounds from those...and it's all about that.
I wrote to Yamaha support, I'm curious to see what they can say about it.
I have multiple backup of everything else on various drives.

Cheers

Valentin
 

Offline DerekA

I cannot find a single logical reason why there should be 'one way flow' between the keyboard and the software?

You're talking about a scenario where you have an 'empty' YEM on your PC. If you could go backwards, it would mean taking the data stored in the keyboard memory and recreating the complete structure of packs, voices, styles, and wave samples together with plumbing to associate them properly with one another. Depending on how the data is transformed and compressed by YEM when an install file is created, this might not be possible.
Tyros5
 

Offline Joe H

Valentin,

If I understand your problem correctly, you say you edited the sounds on your Tyros.  That means they are User Voices... is that correct?

If that is the case the only way you can duplicate your edits is to load the .ppf / .cpf file into YEM,.  Open Voice Set for each sound you have edited and make the same edits (match-up) on the Common Parameters in the YEM Voice Editor and re-install the pack(s).  I don't see any short cut.  Once you do that the created Installation File will have the edits in the installed packs... then save the Installation file and make a backup copy.

Joe H
« Last Edit: May 15, 2018, 08:47:15 PM by Joe H »
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline valio7771

If I understand your problem correctly, you say you edited the sounds on your Tyros.  That means they are User Voices... is that correct?....

Hi Joe,

Unfortunately all the sounds are waveforms that I edited on YEM before, they are not  User Voices.
I'm clueless why didn't I made a copy of my sound packs in any different format, other that .ppi, which is....kind of a backup, but not a particularly useful in this case. I guess...you live and learn, as it is with most things in life.

NOW, there's a silver lining in the story!
I managed to trace back some the places from where I initially downloaded those sound packs, but it is a jungle out there, and finding what I downloaded 3 years ago, with different names, is just an absolute mayhem. But still, with enough persistence I already managed to find about 60% of what I've lost, which great... but still is less than half the story in the 'grand scheme' because even if I manage to find everything, I'll still have one hell of a job to order every single sound's MSB/LSB in the same exact order as they are in the keyboard. :o 

To put this in perspective, currently I have 6 packs installed on the Tyros, 4 of which are full with 127 sounds in them, the other 2 are about half full. This doesn't mean I use every single one of those sounds, but I have over 300 MIDI's and more than 100 user styles that are using some of those sounds, and there is NO way I remember which sound from which pack is used in which particular channel in a particular MIDI file or a style. Of coarse I can re-sound on-the-fly, but it won't be pretty if a saxophone sound starts to play instead of drums, or vice versa. I'm playing 5 nights a week, so.....yeah.
Korg is light years ahead of Yamaha in this aspect.

Wish me luck, haha
 

Offline Joe H

valio7771,

You can still do as I suggested by opening the Voice Set on the T5 and look at the settings.  If you can retrieve all the packs, you can rebuild those
Voices to the same or similar settings... unless you did your editing at the element level... then you are out of luck.

 :(

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 
The following users thanked this post: valio7771

Offline valio7771

Joe,

I LOVE YOU, MAN !!! (in the most purest and humane meaning of this sentence)

I never thought Voice Set would be able to 'extract' the sound from the expansion pack and let me save it wherever I want, but apparently it does.

Cannot thank you enough for your advice!!!

Regards,

Valentin

ps. Well, my joy was short lived.
Just got back from an experiment to save couple of sounds on a USB drive and import them in a pack with YEM, but apparently Voice Set does not save them as .uvn/.uvd, it saves them as .vce which YEM does not accept. Although they are saved on the keyboard's HD or USB drive, those sounds cannot be assigned to anything else than Left, R1, R2, R3 because they do not have a LSB/MSB#.
It's still something, because I do use few sounds to play on the keyboard, but that's very limiting in therms of usability of those sounds in general.
Damn...
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 01:26:38 PM by valio7771 »
 

Offline Joe H

Nope, you cannot import the Voice Set file into YEM.  What I was suggesting is that you can copy the Voice set settings displayed on the keyboard screen and match them up in the YEM Voice Editor COMMON parameters (one Voice at a time).  Those Common parameters in the YEM Voice Editor are converted to a Voice File when the pack is installed on your keyboard.  As I said above... There is NO short cut (I'm afraid).

 ;)

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline pjd

Nope, you cannot import the Voice Set file into YEM. 

In the wild idea department... In case someone wants to hack some code...  :)

The VCE file is SMF. A program could read the SMF and translate the CC/SysEx messages to the equivalent parameter definitions in a UVF (XML) file suitable for YEM.

Enough acronyms?  ;D

Take care -- pj


 

Offline Joe H

OK digital engineer... please give an example of how to convert a .vce file to a .UVF file. Is that a quicker way of doing things? I have about 400 custom Voices to program using Voice Set and then Import into YEM. (and BTW... what is XML)

Does this mean I could load a custom Voice and capture the sysex strings and everything else in MixMaster MIDI Monitor (as a SMF)... then convert it to a UVN?

workarounds, workarounds, and more workarounds!

 ;D

Joe H
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 08:30:26 PM by Joe H »
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline pjd

A VCE file is already a Standard MIDI file. Rename the extension to MID, then look inside with a DAW.

Then, Google "XML".  :) Open a UVF file with a text editor. Look inside. You'll see where the Voice Set parameters are stored and what they look like. It's structured text.

The conversion idea is to write a program to recognize the MIDI CC and SysEx events in the VCE file and generate the Voice Set parameter definitions in XML. It's the inverse process to what YEM (or whatever) does to generate a VCE file from UVF.

-- pj
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 10:38:23 PM by pjd »
 

Offline Joe H

pj,

So... you are just presenting a concept... there is no .vce to XML converter program. I understand that the .vce is a SMF but it sounds like this wouldn't work for the PSR series. The Tyros and Genos wave forms are stored in YEM but not the PSR S series.  I assume the UVN file has the wave number/information in it as well as the Element settings for the YEM Editor so YEM knows which Voice it is... and loads that Voice wave(s) and sets both the Element parameters and Common parameters.

Also from what you describe, converting a SMF to a UVN file one at a time would be about the same amount of work as setting the Common parameters manually in YEM.

I'm I wrong about this.   ???

Joe H
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 03:16:07 AM by Joe H »
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline pjd

So... you are just presenting a concept...

Hi Joe --

Yep, I acknowledged this right up front. ("In case someone wants to hack some code... ")

The translation should work for any S-series arranger that is YEM-compatible as well as Tyros 5 and Genos. That's the charm of Yamaha's UVF format. (Not "UVN".)

The proposal is for a program to make the translation. If people want to get their hands dirty and learn a lot about MIDI, SMF and UVF, this would be a good project. One could do the translation manually, but yikes, the labor would be tedious, especially if there are tens or hundreds of files to be converted.

The waveform information is problematic even on Tyros 5 and Genos. The info distributed with YEM is embedded in existing UVF files and the waveforms are frequently only identified by number, not a human-readable name. Further, only UVF files for legacy voices are distributed. So, I expect the VCE to UVF converter to be somewhat incomplete.

Just brainstorming, even a VCE dumper would be useful -- something to display the contents of a VCE file in a readable form, making it easier to manually re-enter the information through Voice Set.

All the best -- pj
 

Offline pjd

Michael B's StyleDump program is the greatest thing since sliced bread.  :D It dumps MIDI and VCE files as well as styles, because heck, they're all SMF!

Here is an old dump of the JazzyArtist VCE to show the kind of information which is stored there. StyleDump's format is kind of wonky, so one needs to know what NRPN MSB/LSB values are. But, they all map to Voice Set parameters. (And UVF parameters, too.)

I can't thank Michael enough for this program -- pj


Voice dump: JazzyArtist

ID     Delay  Measure  Ch  Type
000022 5      1:01:000     Metadata  Time Signature:  4/ 4
000030 5      1:01:010     Metadata  Tempo:  120
000037 5      1:01:015 1   Midi      CC  Bank Select MSB Value: 8
000041 5      1:01:020 1   Midi      CC  Bank Select LSB Value: 39
000045 5      1:01:025 1   Midi      Program Change:  6
000048 5      1:01:030 1   Midi      CC  Release Value: 104
000052 5      1:01:035 1   Midi      CC  NRPN MSB Value: 1
000056 5      1:01:040 1   Midi      CC  NRPN LSB Value: 102
000060 5      1:01:045 1   Midi      CC  MSB Data Entry Value: 64
000064 5      1:01:050 1   Midi      CC  LSB Data Entry Value: 0
000068 5      1:01:055 1   Midi      CC  Attack Value: 64
000072 5      1:01:060 1   Midi      CC  NRPN MSB Value: 1
000076 5      1:01:065 1   Midi      CC  NRPN LSB Value: 100
000080 5      1:01:070 1   Midi      CC  MSB Data Entry Value: 64
000084 5      1:01:075 1   Midi      CC  LSB Data Entry Value: 0
000088 5      1:01:080 1   Midi      CC  NRPN MSB Value: 1
000092 5      1:01:085 1   Midi      CC  NRPN LSB Value: 8
000096 5      1:01:090 1   Midi      CC  MSB Data Entry Value: 61
000100 5      1:01:095 1   Midi      CC  LSB Data Entry Value: 0
000104 5      1:02:004 1   Midi      CC  NRPN MSB Value: 1
000108 5      1:02:009 1   Midi      CC  NRPN LSB Value: 9
000112 5      1:02:014 1   Midi      CC  MSB Data Entry Value: 64
000116 5      1:02:019 1   Midi      CC  LSB Data Entry Value: 0
000120 5      1:02:024 1   Midi      CC  NRPN MSB Value: 1
000124 5      1:02:029 1   Midi      CC  NRPN LSB Value: 10
000128 5      1:02:034 1   Midi      CC  MSB Data Entry Value: 64
000132 5      1:02:039 1   Midi      CC  LSB Data Entry Value: 0
000136 5      1:02:044     Sysex     XG  Part#= 0 , MW Filter Control= 64
000147 5      1:02:049     Sysex     XG  Part 00 MW offset Level=  64
000158 5      1:02:054     Sysex     XG  Part#= 0 , MW LFO PMod Depth= 6
000169 5      1:02:059     Sysex     XG  Part#= 0 , MW LFO FMod Depth= 0
000180 5      1:02:064     Sysex     XG  Part#= 0 , MW MW LFO FMod Depth=  25
000191 5      1:02:069     Sysex     XG  Part#= 0 , Mono(0)/Poly mode= 1
000202 5      1:02:074     Sysex     F0 43 73 01 50 08 00 04 5A F7
000214 5      1:02:079 1   Midi      CC  Harmonic Content(timbre) Value: 64
000218 5      1:02:084 1   Midi      CC  Brightness Value: 64
000222 5      1:02:089 1   Midi      CC  Portamento Time Value: 0
000226 5      1:02:094     Sysex     XG  Part#= 0 , Velocity Sense Depth= 64
000237 5      1:03:003     Sysex     XG  Part#= 0 , Velocity Sense Offset= 64
000248 5      1:03:008     Sysex     F0 43 73 01 50 08 00 05 3F F7
000260 5      1:03:013     Sysex     F0 43 73 01 50 08 03 06 41 F7
000272 5      1:03:018     Sysex     XG  Part#= 0 , EQ Bass Frequency= 24
000283 5      1:03:023     Sysex     XG  Part#= 0 , EQ Bass Gain= 48
000294 5      1:03:028     Sysex     XG  Part#= 0 , EQ Treble Frequency= 37
000305 5      1:03:033     Sysex     XG  Part#= 0 , EQ Treble Gain= 80
000316 5      1:03:038     Sysex     F0 43 73 01 51 04 00 00 02 07 00 F7
000330 5      1:03:043     Sysex     F0 43 73 01 50 04 00 05 23 F7
000342 5      1:03:048     Sysex     F0 43 73 01 50 04 00 02 10 F7
000354 5      1:03:053     Sysex     F0 43 73 01 50 04 00 03 00 F7
000366 5      1:03:058     Sysex     F0 43 73 01 50 04 00 04 00 F7
000378 5      1:03:063 1   Midi      CC  Reverb Send Level Value: 26
000382 5      1:03:068 1   Midi      CC  Chorus Send Level Value: 0
000386 5      1:03:073     Sysex     F0 43 73 01 50 08 00 08 7F F7
000398 5      1:03:078     Sysex     DSP Variation Off
000410 5      1:03:083     Sysex     XG Effect2 DSP 2 Insertion Effect
000422 5      1:03:088     Sysex     XG Effect2 DSP 2 Insertion Parameter 10= 0
000433 5      1:03:093     Sysex     F0 43 73 01 51 08 00 11 02 00 50 F7

 

Offline Joe H

pj,

Sorry for the typos.  Since I don't own a Tyros, I have never worked with these files. Thanks for all the information... I'll work on it.

Always something new to learn.

 :)

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline valio7771

Whoa, vce is smf......mind=blown.

Never ever thought that there could've been any relation between those two....well, you learn something new every day.
I imagine if some of Yamaha's technicians are looking at this thread here, they'll be like "Damn, they cracked the code of vce" and they'll be on their way to develop different file structure for sounds, haha.
Jokes aside, that's a useful piece of knowledge, and if somebody could do some more code hacking, at least he would know from where to start.

Once upon a time, I used to have a Yamaha QX-3 Sequencer, and I had to manually write every single SYSEX if I wanted to really 'juice' my PSR-620 and make it do things that where unthinkable if you where trying to use olny the keyboard itself. I used to remember the most frequent 10-15 exclusives I needed, and just tap them in in seconds, some of those Exclusives where as long as 8-9 double digits/letters. That was a fun time, and it felt so rewarding when everything worked as you where hoping in the end. But than I got PSR-2000 and everything got much more easier, and since than I got a lot lazy in that aspect. I used to 'speak' MIDI, everything I was listening, I was imagining it as it is written as series of controllers, values and exclusives, and I could recite the whole thing. Now I'm just a lazy a**, hehe.

Thanks for the info pj.

Valentin
 

Offline Joe H

valio7771,

FYI... Our arrangers are just a bunch of MIDI sequencers.  The following file types are SMF

Style files (modified Type 0), Multi Pad files (Type 1). Voice Set files (Type 0), and of coarse songs files (Type 0) used by the on-board sequencer.

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline pjd

Sorry for the typos. 

Hi Joe --

No problem! I'm trying to wrap up another software project, otherwise I'd deep dive this. More to come (eventually).

We can also add OTS to that list.

-- pj
« Last Edit: May 18, 2018, 01:57:03 PM by pjd »
 

Offline pjd

Hi --

Here are the MIDI events to be found in a VCE file. Use of "Clavinova" SysEx seems to be a legacy thing as well as the use of NRPN vs. CC. Similar information is found in OTS files.

The purpose of several Clavinova SysEx events is unknown.

Hope someone finds this table useful. They could use the info to program a MIDI controller.

Take care -- pj


VCE file MIDI events (all events channel 1)

Type  Event#  Purpose                      Detail
----  ------  ---------------------------  -----------------------------
CC    0       Bank select MSB
CC    32      Bank select LSB
PC            Program change
CC    72      Release Time (GM2)

NRPN  1,102   EG Release                   All NPRN need Data Entry events

CC    73      Attack Time (GM2)

NRPN  1,100   EG Decay Time
NRPN  1,8     Vibrato Rate
NRPN  1,9     Vibrato Depth
NRPN  1,10    Vibrato Delay

SysEx         Part:0, MW Filter Control     F0 43 10 4C 08 00 1E 40 F7
SysEx         Part:0, MW Offset Level       F0 43 10 4C 0A 00 40 40 F7
SysEx         Part:0, MW LFO PMod Depth     F0 43 10 4C 08 00 20 06 F7
SysEx         Part:0, MW LFO FMod Depth     F0 43 10 4C 08 00 21 00 F7
SysEx         Part:0, MW                    F0 43 10 4C 08 00 22 19 F7
SysEx         Part:0, Mono/Poly             F0 43 10 4C 08 00 05 01 F7
SysEx         Part:0, MW Filter Control     F0 43 73 01 50 08 00 04 5A F7

CC     71     Harmonic Content (GM2)
CC     74     Brightness (GM2)
CC     5      Portamento Time (GM2)

SysEx         Part:0 Velocity Sense Depth   F0 43 10 4C 08 00 0C xx F7
SysEx         Part:0 Velocity Sense Offset  F0 43 10 4C 08 00 0D xx F7

SysEx         Unknown                       F0 43 73 01 50 08 00 05 3F F7
SysEx         Unknown                       F0 43 73 01 50 08 03 06 41 F7

SysEx         Part:0, EQ Bass Frequency     F0 43 10 4C 08 00 76 xx F7
SysEx         Part:0, EQ Bass Gain          F0 43 10 4C 08 00 72 xx F7
SysEx         Part:0, EQ Treble Frequency   F0 43 10 4C 08 00 77 xx F7
SysEx         Part:0, EQ Treble Gain        F0 43 10 4C 08 00 73 xx F7

SysEx         Harmony/echo type             F0 43 73 01 51 04 00 00 yy yy yy F7
SysEx         Harmony/echo volume           F0 43 73 01 50 04 00 05 yy F7
SysEx         Harmony/echo assign auto      F0 43 73 01 50 04 00 02 yy F7
SysEx         Harmony/echo chord off        F0 43 73 01 50 04 00 03 yy F7
SysEx         Harmony/echo touch limit      F0 43 73 01 50 04 00 04 yy F7

CC     91     Reverb Send Level
CC     92     Chorus Send Level

SysEx         DSP effect ON/OFF             F0 43 73 01 50 08 00 08 xx F7
SysEx         DSP Variation                 F0 43 73 01 50 08 00 01 xx F7
SysEx         EFFECT2 DSP 2 Ins Effect      F0 43 10 4C 03 00 00 xx yy F7
SysEx         EFFECTs DSP 2 Ins Param 1     F0 43 10 4C 03 00 02 xx F7
SysEx         EFFECTs DSP 2 Ins Param 2     F0 43 10 4C 03 00 03 xx F7
...           ...                           ...
SysEx         EFFECTs DSP 2 Ins Param 9     F0 43 10 4C 03 00 0A xx F7
SysEx         EFFECTs DSP 2 Ins Param 10    F0 43 10 4C 03 00 20 xx F7
SysEx         EFFECTs DSP 2 Ins Param 11    F0 43 10 4C 03 00 25 xx F7
...           ...                           ...
SysEx         EFFECTs DSP 2 Ins Param 16    F0 43 10 4C 03 00 25 xx F7
 
SysEx         DSP effect variation value?   F0 43 73 01 51 08 00 11 yy yy yy F7

SysEx         Part:0, CAT Filter Control    F0 43 10 4C 08 00 4E xx F7
SysEx         Part:0, MW Offset Level Cont  F0 43 10 4C 0A 00 42 xx F7
SysEx         Part:0, CAT LFO PMod Depth    F0 43 10 4C 08 00 50 xx F7
SysEx         Part:0, CAT LFO FMod Depth    F0 43 10 4C 08 00 51 xx F7
SysEx         Part:0, CAT LFO AMod Depth    F0 43 10 4C 08 00 52 xx F7

SysEx         Part:0, AC1 Low Pass Filter   F0 43 10 4C 08 00 5B xx F7
SysEx         Part:0, AC1 Offset Level      F0 43 10 4C 0A 00 44 xx F7
SysEx         Part:0, AC1 LFO Pmod Depth    F0 43 10 4C 08 00 5D xx F7
SysEx         Part:0, AC1 LFO Fmod Depth    F0 43 10 4C 08 00 5E xx F7
SysEx         Part:0, AC1 LFO Amod Depth    F0 43 10 4C 08 00 5F xx F7

SysEx         Unknown               F0 43 73 01 51 08 00 12 03 0D 00 02 F7
SysEx         Unknown               F0 43 73 01 51 08 00 12 03 0E 00 44 F7
SysEx         Unknown               F0 43 73 01 51 08 00 12 03 0F 00 08 F7

 
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Offline pjd

Hi --

Next up is a snippet from the UVF file AlohaGuitar.uvf. It shows the voiceSet, effectSet and information XML elements.

To make a mapping from VCE to UVF, one just needs to match up the VCE MIDI events in my last post with the UVF parameters shown below. Two of the mystery Clavinova SysEx events probably match up with the partOctaveLeft and partOctaveRight parameters. (See http://dromeusik.blogspot.com/p/blog-page_17.html).

The voiceCommon XML element holds the actual voice programming, including the element definitions. I'm wondering if it's possible to sneak a UVF without voiceCommon into YEM's database? If that's possible, then we have a way to import VCE data into YEM. This would be a nice addition to Vali's YEM content explorer.

If YEM doesn't like an empty voiceCommon, then maybe a default (boilerplate) voiceCommon could be incorporated into the UVF as a placeholder?

I remember another forum member asking for a way to import VCE or VCE-like info into a YEM expansion pack. Probably other folks need this, too.

Have fun -- pj


<?xml version="1.0" ?>
<uvf:voiceData version="1.2" xmlns:uvf="http://www.yamaha.com/uvf" xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance">
 <voiceType>EKB_LEGACY</voiceType>
 <voiceCommon editable="ON" xsi:type="uvf:VOICE_COMMON_EKB_LEGACY">

 ...

 </voiceCommon>
 <voiceSet>
  <volume>98</volume>
  <touchSenseDepth>64</touchSenseDepth>
  <touchSenseOffset>67</touchSenseOffset>
  <partOctaveLeft>1</partOctaveLeft>
  <partOctaveRight>-1</partOctaveRight>
  <monoPoly>1</monoPoly>
  <portamentoTime>40</portamentoTime>
  <mwLpfControl>64</mwLpfControl>
  <mwAmpControl>64</mwAmpControl>
  <mwPmodDepth>11</mwPmodDepth>
  <mwFmodDepth>0</mwFmodDepth>
  <mwAmodDepth>0</mwAmodDepth>
  <catLpfControl>64</catLpfControl>
  <catAmpControl>64</catAmpControl>
  <catPmodDepth>6</catPmodDepth>
  <catFmodDepth>0</catFmodDepth>
  <catAmodDepth>0</catAmodDepth>
  <panelSustain>100</panelSustain>
  <eqLowFreq>16</eqLowFreq>
  <eqLowGain>60</eqLowGain>
  <eqHiFreq>42</eqHiFreq>
  <eqHiGain>64</eqHiGain>
  <brightness>64</brightness>
  <resonance>64</resonance>
  <egAttack>64</egAttack>
  <egDecay>64</egDecay>
  <egRelease>64</egRelease>
  <vibratoDepth>67</vibratoDepth>
  <vibratoSpeed>64</vibratoSpeed>
  <vibratoDelay>66</vibratoDelay>
  <harmonyType>0</harmonyType>
  <harmonyVolume>100</harmonyVolume>
  <harmonyAssignPart>0</harmonyAssignPart>
  <harmonyCodeNote>0</harmonyCodeNote>
  <harmonyTouchLimit>0</harmonyTouchLimit>
 </voiceSet>
 <effectSet>
  <reverbSend>32</reverbSend>
  <chorusSend>0</chorusSend>
  <dspOnOff>ON</dspOnOff>
  <dspDepth>30</dspDepth>
  <dspVariationOnOff>OFF</dspVariationOnOff>
  <dspVariationParameter>9</dspVariationParameter>
  <specList>needsInsertionEffect</specList>
  <insertionEffect>
   <typeMsb>21</typeMsb>
   <typeLsb>0</typeLsb>
   <prm1>10</prm1>
   <prm2>80</prm2>
   <prm3>10</prm3>
   <prm4>78</prm4>
   <prm5>64</prm5>
   <prm6>0</prm6>
   <prm7>0</prm7>
   <prm8>0</prm8>
   <prm9>0</prm9>
   <prm10>30</prm10>
   <prm11>0</prm11>
   <prm12>0</prm12>
   <prm13>28</prm13>
   <prm14>64</prm14>
   <prm15>46</prm15>
   <prm16>64</prm16>
  </insertionEffect>
 </effectSet>
 <information>
  <modelName>Genos</modelName>
  <voiceName>AlohaGuitar</voiceName>
  <voiceMsb>0</voiceMsb>
  <voiceLsb>118</voiceLsb>
  <voicePcNum>26</voicePcNum>
  <icon>T329</icon>
  <originalFormat>Genos:000:118:026</originalFormat>
 </information>
</uvf:voiceData>

 

Offline pjd

Joe asked me a few questions by PM and I thought that the answer would help other folks, too.

-- pj

Good news! You already have a few hundred UVF files. When YEM installs, it stores UVF files for Tyros 5 and Genos in the directories:

C:\Program Files (x86)\YAMAHA\Expansion Manager\voices\genos
C:\Program Files (x86)\YAMAHA\Expansion Manager\voices\tyros5

The instrument directories are subdivided into DRUM_KIT and EKB_LEGACY. EKB_LEGCY contains the legacy normal voices. Further subdirectories are Hidden, so you'll need to tell Windows that you want to see Hidden files. The subdirectories are also Read-Only.

The other place to explore is:

C:\Users\XXX\AppData\Local\Yamaha\Expansion Manager\Packs

That's where your expansion packs are stored. "XXX" is your user name. The pack directory and file names are long strings of hexadecimal characters (called a Global Uniquie Identifier, or GUID). There are three kinds of hidden files, .index, .serial and .catalog, which remember YEM's database structure.

UVF files are in the pack database, but you'll have to work a little bit to identify them. The .catalog file helps. BTW, the "." character is important in those hidden file names. Vali's YEM Content Explorer uses these files to find the content files.

If you don't want to open XML in a text editor, I recommend XML Notepad. It knows about XML structure and makes it easy to navigate around inside of an XML file. XML Notepad also lets you edit values and the document structure.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2018, 07:12:34 PM by pjd »
 

Offline valio7771

Good news! You already have a few hundred UVF files. When YEM installs, it stores UVF files for Tyros 5 and Genos in the directories:

C:\Program Files (x86)\YAMAHA\Expansion Manager\voices\genos
C:\Program Files (x86)\YAMAHA\Expansion Manager\voices\tyros5

The instrument directories are subdivided into DRUM_KIT and EKB_LEGACY. EKB_LEGCY contains the legacy normal voices. Further subdirectories are Hidden, so you'll need to tell Windows that you want to see Hidden files. The subdirectories are also Read-Only.

Hey pj, thanks for elaborating on the subject of voice format structure.

Yes, it make much more sense if Style, Multi Pad files to be some kind of sequencer type, but VCE I was imagining it just as some kind of proprietary audio conversion, it's core as some sort of sound wave sample file. And as much as I'm understanding from those voice dumps that you kindly provided, that is just instruction to the sound module, detailed description of the attached parameters to the sound in particular, but not the sound career itself (like the 0's and 1's of the sound wave structure), as I understood your words initially when you said that VCE is just a SMF file....yes it obviously has, and need to have bunch of MIDI commands in it, in order to work properly in the system, but the MIDI information ALONE could not produce any sound. That's why I got a bit confused.

I did stumble upon those UVF's while browsing the other day inside the YEM installation folder, and I was quite surprised when I saw all the Genos and Tyros5 sounds in there, and I wonder why they are there?
I also wonder if (somehow) I'm/was able to get a copy of my old content of the C:\Users\XXX\AppData\Local\Yamaha\Expansion Manager\Packs, and replace the current one with the copy of the old one, would YEM be able to get any practical information about the previous installation of my packs?

Valentin
 

Offline pjd

I saw all the Genos and Tyros5 sounds in there, and I wonder why they are there?

I also wonder if (somehow) I'm/was able to get a copy of my old content of the C:\Users\XXX\AppData\Local\Yamaha\Expansion Manager\Packs, and replace the current one with the copy of the old one ... ?

Hello Valentin --

Sorry, I got carried away with the idea of recovering UVF from a VCE file generated by Tyros/Genos/PSR.  :-[

As to the first question, Tyros 5/Genos users can edit the preset voices and create new custom voices starting from scratch or an existing preset voice. These UVFs are the basic voice info needed for editing. The distributed UVFs are only good for regular voices and drum kits, not SArt or SArt2.

The answer to your second question is "Yes." If you can recover the Packs directory and its contents from the hard drive, you can copy this directory as the Packs directory on your new machine and YEM's database will be restored, including the waveform files. At least two Forum members have done this successfully.

If you could recover your Packs directory, that would be sweet.  :D Is the old PC or hard drive still somewhat functional? If the PC won't boot from the drive, you could install the drive in a cheap USB hard drive enclosure (with its own power supply), plug the disk into the new PC, and see if you can read it.

Best of luck -- pj

« Last Edit: May 19, 2018, 07:16:13 PM by pjd »
 

Offline valio7771

Hey pj,

Oh, I have tried many times to start the old hard drive externally, but it is as fried as a KFC chicken wing.
I have a hard drive docking station that I use, but the thing is not appearing anywhere. I guess the drive's logic board has let some smoke, and the only way to get any data from that hard it to take it to some king of forensic people.

Anyway, thank you for your effort to help!

Valentin
 

Offline wersianer

Hi Valentin,

have you ever tried using Linux to access the hard drive?
 

Offline valio7771

Hi Valentin,

have you ever tried using Linux to access the hard drive?

I have tried.

I'm on a dual boot with Windows 7 and KDE Ubuntu, no success on either of those. It's the hard's logic board fault, it does not 'speak' to what's connected to it. The hard drive doesn't spin when connected, and I can't be sure if the physical data is still intact because there's no way to know where the actuator was in the moment when the board failed. If it was over the plate and digged on it, that's practically 'game over' with the physical data. It happen over night, I just woke up to BSOD that morning and that was the end of it. I bought a nice Samsung 850 SSD 250GB for a  primary OS drive.

Cheers,

Valentin
 
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Offline wersianer

Yes Valentin, I'm sorry, because I know no more advice. Professional data recovery is costly and does not guarantee complete preservation of your data. To save me such a bad news I bought myself a self-locking NAS. There, the data is constantly mirrored. This may not help you now in your emergency situation, but perhaps you are thinking about such a purchase for the future.
I'll keep my fingers crossed.
 

Offline wersianer

I remember something else: Is the hard drive connected via USB? With me once the disassembly of the board for the USB connection and the direct connection of the hard disk in my computer helped that I could access the data again.
 

Offline pjd

Hi Valentin --

I read your original message. More brainstorming...

So, hey, the T5 has a hard disk. The drive can be disassembled from the T5. See the diagram attached below.

The Hard Disk Drive (HDD) is listed in the Electrical Parts as "2.5inch 500G" Yamaha part number ZG677600. Even though it's (probably) a standard 2.5" drive, the bracket converts to USB. The connector at the end of the "bracket" could be weird (not a a standard USB-A connector) -- I've never actually seen one!

I would expect Yamaha to use a fairly standard file system. So, there is the option of pulling the T5 hard drive and connecting it to Windows, Mac, Linux machine through either USB or SATA/IDE. I think I would go with Linux because you would have to tour around the file system to see what you can see.  ;)

Naturally, I would never recommend this, etc., etc. etc.  :o You could really lose it all.

Just brainstorming -- pj
 
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Offline DerekA

There's a video on You Tube showing how to replace the hard drive with an SSD. It is just an ordinary hard drive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffeOJUp--1M

(Not sure that helps the OP in any way, just for general interest)
« Last Edit: May 21, 2018, 03:29:11 PM by DerekA »
Tyros5
 

Offline EileenL

Packs loaded into YEM are kept on the computer hard drive. This is why you don't lose them when you update YEM and uninstall the old version first. I then create PPF files from YEM and keep them on a USB stick so I have a back up should my computer hard drive fail.

Offline valio7771

The Hard Disk Drive (HDD) is listed in the Electrical Parts as "2.5inch 500G" Yamaha part number ZG677600. Even though it's (probably) a standard 2.5" drive, the bracket converts to USB. The connector at the end of the "bracket" could be weird (not a a standard USB-A connector) -- I've never actually seen one!

That is the next thing in my 'To do' list.
I actually thought about SSD swap in the keyboard long time ago but still haven't done it, mainly because of the general pricing of the SSD's until recently, and because there ain't gonna be any difference in the loading and saving speeds due to the bottle neck in the integrated USB type A interface inside the keyboard, which is fairly slow compared to the speeds the SSD's can operate. But based on my recent HDD related events, I might invest in one more SSD for the Tyros as well, just for the sake of avoiding any more mechanical failures.

Thanks, pj

Valentin
 

Offline pjd

That is the next thing in my 'To do' list.

Hi Valentin --

Since you were running Windows/Linux dual boot, I figured that you wouldn't be fazed by looking inside the Tyros 5 HDD.  8) I've never browsed through one and don't know if there is anything useful to help you recover your work. I would be very curious to browse through one myself just for curiosity's sake.  ;D

Best of luck -- pj
 

Offline wersianer

Hello Valentin,
I have to ask again:
Did you remove the hard drive from the T5 and the USB-board is attached with 2 screws on the hard drive?
After loosening the 2 screws, you can pull the small board out of the hard disk.
And then you have this hard drive connected to your computer?
If necessary, perform a chkdsk.
That's what helped me get the data back.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2018, 02:15:48 PM by wersianer »
 

Offline valio7771

I have to ask again:
Did you remove the hard drive from the T5 and the USB-board is attached with 2 screws on the hard drive?....
Hi,

I think you've misunderstood the problem from the beginning.
There's nothing wrong with the HDD inside the keyboard, it's the one that was in my computer and I've lost my the data that Yamaha Expansion Manager (YEM) 'knew' about what is installed on the Tyros and allow me edit those packs however I like and sent them to the keyboard. Now after the new installation of Windows, YEM is not able to read the data back from the keyboard. And because I haven't made a backup of an appropriate file type of my customised packs, which would have allowed me to properly import them back into YEM, I'm now stuck with what's currently installed on the keyboard without being able to further alter/edit those packs using YEM.

BTW, I still haven't taken the keyboard's HDD out to see if there is some hidden system files on it. I'm a bit busy with other things currently.

Cheers,

Valentin
 
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Offline EileenL

Voice packs are loaded into the flash memory on Tyros. I don't think you will find them on the keyboard hard drive. They are usually stored in the YEM and held on the computer hard drive.
 
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Offline pjd

Voice packs are loaded into the flash memory on Tyros. I don't think you will find them on the keyboard hard drive. They are usually stored in the YEM and held on the computer hard drive.

Hi Eileen --

I agree that the possibility of finding data to recover the packs is slim.

However, we won't know if we don't look.  :) I suspect that Valentin has the OS skills to take a look without stomping on the T5 HDD. Spirit of adventure and all that -- as long as the risk of losing everything on the HDD is acknowledged, accepted and mitigated.

BTW, I doubt if we will ever get a peek at the "internal drive" within Genos. It's an eMMC device and is (probably) soldered in place. Judging from the start-up flowchart in the service manual, it holds the Linux root filesystem at the very least.

All the best to everyone -- pj
 

Offline EileenL

You can still link up Genos to computer via a printer type cable as we did on Tyros and read what is on User Memory.