Author Topic: Sound comparison Tyros versus Genos  (Read 5620 times)

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Offline SeaGtGruff

Re: Sound comparison Tyros versus Genos
« Reply #50 on: May 13, 2018, 04:32:26 PM »
All I’m asking for is better style editing
An iPad app would do,

Why is that such a big deal for Yamaha Music,

My dealer says that “Yamaha Musicsoft” would stop such ‘apps’
Cos they want to sell styles to us.

There are already computer programs for creating and editing Yamaha styles, or converting from Yamaha styles to other manufacturers' formats and vice versa, and Yamaha MusicSoft hasn't put an end to those programs, so I don't see why they should care one way or the other if someone were to make an iPad app for creating and editing styles.

If Yamaha were against people being able to create and edit styles, then they wouldn't include the Style Creator on their keyboards at all, would they? ???
Michael Rideout
Current keyboards: Yamaha YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443, PSR-EW400, MX49 BK
Current controllers: M-Audio Axiom 61-II
Previous keyboards: Farfisa Matador 611; Casio CTK-710
 

Offline mikf

Re: Sound comparison Tyros versus Genos
« Reply #51 on: May 13, 2018, 08:10:33 PM »
Pino
I believe what Fred is expressing is that many of us are getting tired of the stream of posts which focus on what the Genos or other Yamaha keyboards do not do, instead of accepting and exploring what it does. Yamaha has a business plan and philosophy for each of their keyboards, and they are absolutely entitled to that, just as you are entitled to not buy it if you don't like it. Why are you not using the Technics for your gigs, .....because overall it isn't as good, even if it has a couple of features you like. Just like every other product.
Mike

Offline EileenL

Re: Sound comparison Tyros versus Genos
« Reply #52 on: May 13, 2018, 09:21:17 PM »
What is stopping you creating your own styles in Genos or adding riffs to the existing ones. Like Technics you can mix style parts from other styles to create new ones. Plus the fact that there are thousands of dedicated styles on the net that you can adapt to your own use.

Online Pino

Re: Sound comparison Tyros versus Genos
« Reply #53 on: May 13, 2018, 11:50:31 PM »
Guys, can’t I have my say without being shot down mainly by members that did not have any input whatsoever on this topic and probably never use the ‘style creator’, why butt in on something you don’t use, if you did use it then you would probably agree with me,

I just asked a question on why Yamaha has not updated the ‘style creator’ in many, many years.
It’s a feature that I do use when ever I am away from my PC, even on a gig I may tweak something on my break time, I always have my iPad Pro with me but no apps there for editing styles.

Seagruff
All my styles are song specific and only have one song intro, when I gig I want Easy, no pressing the wrong intro for me, you mention many programs for editing styles, how many can shut down  2 intros and 2 endings,? Please tell me.

mikf,     it would have been better if you had red my post first before replying.

I have been using Yamaha keyboards for my gigs for the past 10 years
I know Yamaha styles inside and out and I like Yamaha styles,
I can play over the intros and endings, I know each one,
That’s important to me when I’m out gigging


Better still if you were to comment on why Yamaha has not updated the onboard ‘style creator’ in many years,

Fred,  —- why so GRUMPY 😡

This is a Yamaha Arranger Keyboard Forum, I was hoping that we could express our views on how to improve something and discuss the good and the bad,

Now I’m beginning to doubt this,

Regards to all.  :)

Pino

S910 - S950 - S970 - Maui 5s
 

Offline Fred Smith

Re: Sound comparison Tyros versus Genos
« Reply #54 on: May 14, 2018, 01:02:14 AM »

Better still if you were to comment on why Yamaha has not updated the onboard ‘style creator’ in many years,

Fred,  —- why so GRUMPY 😡


You're the one who's grumpy, Pino.

You ask for the freedom to express your views, but deny that to others.

You push away the very people who could help you.

People have commented on why style creator has not been updated -- you're the one who's not listening.

You're only hurting yourself.

Fred
Fred Smith,
Saskatoon, SK
Sun Lakes, AZ
Genos, Bose L1 compacts, Finale 2015
Check out my Registration Lessons
 

Offline Bachus

Re: Sound comparison Tyros versus Genos
« Reply #55 on: May 14, 2018, 01:46:58 AM »
Pino
I believe what Fred is expressing is that many of us are getting tired of the stream of posts which focus on what the Genos or other Yamaha keyboards do not do, instead of accepting and exploring what it does. Yamaha has a business plan and philosophy for each of their keyboards, and they are absolutely entitled to that, just as you are entitled to not buy it if you don't like it. Why are you not using the Technics for your gigs, .....because overall it isn't as good, even if it has a couple of features you like. Just like every other product.
Mike

Why so harsh?

For a typical arranger player, the Genos is near perfect...  it really is..
Sure deep edditing requires Yem. And deep style edditing is better dome on a PC..
But thats not really an issue for most arranger players..

You must also see that there are other people with differenet idea’s wants and needs... for example :
- playing EDM on an arranger..
- having styles on stage piano..
- having an arranger module for use with your accordion..
- having a fullfledged workstation with arranger capabilities
Just to name a few..

Many of these people feel a little forgotten..
That noboddy is building the instrument they dream off
They are all arranger players
And looking at the most expensive and best performing they see something that doesn’t fit their needs..

And thats why people then go to the online forums and speak aloud...
For those things they where hoping for..
I don’t see anything to get upset about..
If you don’t agree, just say so and then just neglect them..


Its a fact, for some the Genos is perfect..
For others its not..
But i dont see any major changes to this comming up

So for everyone the advise to accept the Genos as it is
And either make the best of it and add it to your setup..
And post your wishlist in a topic in the group : Yamaha’s next keyboard.. on this forum
While there is allways a place for criticisme on this forum
With the instrument released and final specs set in stone
Things will not change much anymore, you can leave that up to Yamaha arranger development
They never made huge changes to software
And i have come to the conclusion that its highly unlikely they will do so with the Genos..

It might sound strange this comming from me..
But i agree that there is no use takking about criticisme and missing features of the Genos on the Genos main board.
We could start a topic for that on the prementioned next yamaha group..
Sure all my initial criticisme still holds.
But i agree, this is not the place now to discuss such things
This group is for helping other users get the best experience possible with the Genos.

So let me finish this discussion with a question, i would like to ask those experienced helpfull users that are the reason i still visit this forum..

Is it possible to see what voices are in the OTS sets 1 to 4 witouth selecting them?  (Trough a menu screen or such)
Keyszone.boards.net for all the latest keyboard news and information.
 

Offline EileenL

Re: Sound comparison Tyros versus Genos
« Reply #56 on: May 14, 2018, 02:49:28 AM »
If you select a multi pad set and then press edit at top right of screen and then edit you will see voices in that set. Very quick and easy to do.

Offline Pianoman

Re: Sound comparison Tyros versus Genos
« Reply #57 on: May 14, 2018, 03:01:23 AM »
Hello Everyone.

Many of us, including myself, have long pleaded for civility and understanding
on this forum.

For a very long time now I have been biting my lip and holding back on writing about an
issue that I find a bit disconcerting.

I fervently hope that my writing about this issue will not get my post deleted.

There is a certain Gentleman who specialises in ridiculing, and giving caustic and uncivil
ripostes to members, every time they raise an issue or point out a flaw in a Yamaha keyboard
or anything Yamaha related for that matter.

This has been going on for a long time, and unfortunately still happens very frequently,
yet this particular Gentleman still seems able to get away with it every time.

WHY?

This is the Elephant in the room that many members recognise, but no one wants to address,

But WHY do we tolerate this and say nothing?

I hope this helps to rectify this problem.

Best Regards.
Abby.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 08:47:10 AM by Pianoman »
Musicians don't retire; they stop when there's no more music in them.

Louis Armstrong.


Welcome To My YouTube Videos.
https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJo1iW9nz1GWzeg1QBl-1wVx14CDWlBqx
 
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Offline Bachus

Re: Sound comparison Tyros versus Genos
« Reply #58 on: May 14, 2018, 03:06:34 AM »
Hello Everyone.

Many of us, including myself, have long pleaded for civility and understanding
on this forum.

For a very long time now I have been biting my lip and holding back on writing about an
isues that I find a bit disconcerting.

I fervently hope that my writing about this issue will not get my post deleted.

There is a certain Gentleman who specialises in ridiculing, and giving caustic and uncivil
ripostes to members, every time they raise an issue or point out a flaw in a Yamaha keyboard
or anything Yamaha related for that matter.

This has been going on for a long time, and unfortunately still happens very frequently,
yet this particular Gentleman still seems able to get away with it every time.

WHY?

This is the Elephant in the room that many members recognise, but no one wants to address,

But WHY do we tolerate this and say nothing?

I hope this helps to rectify this problem.

Best Regards.
Abby.

Wow, i have never been called an elephant before..
Would be nice to, allways having a trumpet on your nose..
Keyszone.boards.net for all the latest keyboard news and information.
 

Offline Bachus

Re: Sound comparison Tyros versus Genos
« Reply #59 on: May 14, 2018, 03:08:02 AM »
If you select a multi pad set and then press edit at top right of screen and then edit you will see voices in that set. Very quick and easy to do.

Thanks Eileen, i will be checking this..
Sounds like the answer i was looking for
Keyszone.boards.net for all the latest keyboard news and information.
 

Offline jwyvern

Re: Sound comparison Tyros versus Genos
« Reply #60 on: May 14, 2018, 03:45:17 AM »
Quoting Bachus,
"Is it possible to see what voices are in the OTS sets 1 to 4 witouth selecting them?  (Trough a menu screen or such)"

Eileen mentioned Multipads, if it is the voice makeup of the OTS's you want to see touch Direct Access followed by one of the OTS buttons. The 4 voice sets show on screen.
(Alternatively touch Style/Menu/Style Information).
John
« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 03:47:36 AM by jwyvern »
 

Offline Bachus

Re: Sound comparison Tyros versus Genos
« Reply #61 on: May 14, 2018, 03:57:37 AM »
Quoting Bachus,
"Is it possible to see what voices are in the OTS sets 1 to 4 witouth selecting them?  (Trough a menu screen or such)"

Eileen mentioned Multipads, if it is the voice makeup of the OTS's you want to see touch Direct Access followed by one of the OTS buttons. The 4 voice sets show on screen.
(Alternatively touch Style/Menu/Style Information).
John

Thanks John, that somehow sounds more logical...
Keyszone.boards.net for all the latest keyboard news and information.
 

Offline Eric, B

Re: Sound comparison Tyros versus Genos
« Reply #62 on: May 14, 2018, 04:08:31 AM »
Why so harsh?



You must also see that there are other people with differenet idea’s wants and needs... for example :
- playing EDM on an arranger..
- having styles on stage piano..
- having an arranger module for use with your accordion..
- having a fullfledged workstation with arranger capabilities
Just to name a few..



The Issue of EDM has come up a few times...
EDM is as vast as Country, Pop Rock etc.
I love playing EDM and the Genos is perfect for my needs.
I have the Euro dance pack, downloaded some free stuff and made my own styles to suit my needs.
Plus there are other packs for sale as well as a ton of styles on the Yamaha site.
Depending on what type of EDM you are looking for there is quite a bit out there.

Now I would like to address an observation:
I read people want this or that on different forums.
If we look closely it is always the same 3-5 people posting the same stuff in slightly different ways.
To me it hardly represents the rest of the arranger or Yamaha community or majority.
As you said: you can't please everybody.
But I agree the Genos is one of the best arrangers out there and capable of some amazing music in nearly all genres.
I think sometimes we forget to have fun and play some amazing music with these amazing arrangers.  :D
Eric
Genos, PSR-S970
 

Re: Sound comparison Tyros versus Genos
« Reply #63 on: May 14, 2018, 08:22:14 AM »
---------------
Why should I have to jump ship now. All I’m asking for is better style editing. An iPad app would do,
-----------------------
Why are you so defensive of Yamaha? Isn’t it better to talk about these things and hopefully someone is listening,
---------------
Can’t you just say, “YES, the Yamaha Style Creator of the past 20 years needs updating?”
I believe you never use the ‘style creator’, then stick to what you do and not comment.
Pino

You wrote “This is a Yamaha Arranger Keyboard Forum, I was hoping that we could express our views on how to improve something and discuss the good and the bad. Now I’m beginning to doubt this.

Dear Pino, 
 
I am new on this site, you are not. Have you forgotten this site is for posting

"My long awaited Genos arrived half an hour ago, it is fantastic, the best keyboard ever"  to which someone will an answer
 
"Glad to read a positive appraisal. I am happy you like Genos. You are right, it is the best keyboard ever and sales are  much better than for any previous top model"

This site is not for posting things we dislike on Genos and even less things we  like on other keyboards whether they are  a YAMAHA competitor or no more exist.

My experience is, if you post anything that does not promote YAMAHA sales you will first be accused of claiming you did something that cannot be done - like transferring a Tyros 5 voice to the Genos  - ( = let’s destroy the guys credibility)   and when that is cleared not to be true, somebody will question whether you really did what you claimed to have done - switch sounds files during playing. (= let’s destroy the guy's credibility)  And finally someone will post the "whole idea of comparing sounds  is good for nothing” in spite of the fact that superior sound has been claimed to be immediately audible even for the audience at gigs so a good reason to buy. 

When I wrote the Parameter lock does not function as it should  I was accused of spreading false information, as it does until the keyboard is switched off.  Then someone chimed in that the fact it does only work until switch off  is mentioned in some function list on the manual so it is clear it will not.  So yes in fact it is not a bug it is just plain sloppy software design.   The truth is YAMAHA did realize what is clicked on the parameter lock list should survive switch off just like the split does and they corrected that error  for the foot switches from the Tyros to the Genos. They just forgot to do that  for the  harmony/mic setting,  so on this site  saying the Parameter Lock does not function is insulting YAMAHA and I agree we should not be insulting, it is just that just stating the truth can be perceived as an insult.

I intended to post about some things that were better on TYROS and should be implemented in Genos but I have understood that is not what this site is for.

If you post about something you overlooked to which there is a remedy, this site is very useful and I have several times been helped

If you ask whether something can be done on Genos which cannot be done you will get readers but not the answer "Unfortunately this can not yet be done on Genos.  You get zero answers. You will find postings "I cannot find anything is lacking"
Pino,  I believe you better remember according to this site  Genos was the best keyboard ever even at 1.1.  and  the buyers who paid a hefty price and anyway cannot take their money with them when they leave, should be very grateful to YAMAHA that most of the bugs  -  not yet all - were fixed  within a few months with 1.3 .
 

Maybe I am paranoid, living  a few blocks from  Mr. Lavrow’s  subordinate (who  like his master denies the existence of  anything that is not  praising Russia)  The "Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary " yesterday here declared in an  interview  " I am not going to answer any questions about the Crimea.The whole issue is a malicious invention of the US”.   


Cheers
Kaarlo


The year you were born is unimportant as long as you can still play your keyboard and don't have to change the treble setting
 

Offline Pianoman

Re: Sound comparison Tyros versus Genos
« Reply #64 on: May 14, 2018, 08:51:13 AM »
Wow, i have never been called an elephant before..
Would be nice to, allways having a trumpet on your nose..

Hello Bachus.

I wasn't referring to you I'm afraid. I was referring to another Gentleman.
Sorry for the misunderstanding.
I hope this helps.

Best Regards 
Abby.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 08:52:55 AM by Pianoman »
Musicians don't retire; they stop when there's no more music in them.

Louis Armstrong.


Welcome To My YouTube Videos.
https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJo1iW9nz1GWzeg1QBl-1wVx14CDWlBqx
 

Offline Fred Smith

Re: Sound comparison Tyros versus Genos
« Reply #65 on: May 14, 2018, 09:43:07 AM »

When I wrote the Parameter lock does not function as it should  I was accused of spreading false information, as it does until the keyboard is switched off.  Then someone chimed in that the fact it does only work until switch off  is mentioned in some function list on the manual so it is clear it will not.  So yes in fact it is not a bug it is just plain sloppy software design.   The truth is YAMAHA did realize what is clicked on the parameter lock list should survive switch off just like the split does and they corrected that error  for the foot switches from the Tyros to the Genos. They just forgot to do that  for the  harmony/mic setting,  so on this site  saying the Parameter Lock does not function is insulting YAMAHA and I agree we should not be insulting, it is just that just stating the truth can be perceived as an insult.

I intended to post about some things that were better on TYROS and should be implemented in Genos but I have understood that is not what this site is for.


Kaarlo,

You misunderstand this site completely.

You stated that there was a bug in Parameter Lock. I pointed out this was incorrect. You now agree there is no bug.

You are also of the opinion that Parameter Lock is sloppily designed, and I would agree with you. But that's what you have to post. You can't claim there's a bug when there's not, but you should certainly post what you think could be improved.

So we would love to hear where you think Tyros is than Genos. That's what this site is for. But when you post, you will get replies, because that's what this site is for. And some of those replies will have a difference of opinion, because that's what this site is for. And if the post contains factual errors (eg, "Parameter Lock worked better on Tyros"), the error will be pointed out (eg, "Parameter Lock works exactly the same on Genos as it did on Tyros").

Hope this helps,
Fred
Fred Smith,
Saskatoon, SK
Sun Lakes, AZ
Genos, Bose L1 compacts, Finale 2015
Check out my Registration Lessons
 
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Offline voodoo

Re: Sound comparison Tyros versus Genos
« Reply #66 on: May 14, 2018, 04:17:28 PM »
Wow, i have never been called an elephant before..
Would be nice to, allways having a trumpet on your nose..

Bachus, I am sure, that you were not addressed by the elephant. ;)

Yamaha Genos (finally)
Nord Electro 5D
 

Offline Bachus

Re: Sound comparison Tyros versus Genos
« Reply #67 on: May 14, 2018, 06:48:58 PM »
Bachus, I am sure, that you were not addressed by the elephant. ;)

I still wouldn’t mind to be able to use my nose as a trumpet tough 😜
Keyszone.boards.net for all the latest keyboard news and information.
 

Offline zionip

Re: Sound comparison Tyros versus Genos
« Reply #68 on: May 14, 2018, 11:09:56 PM »
Is it possible to see what voices are in the OTS sets 1 to 4 witouth selecting them?  (Trough a menu screen or such)

Hi Bachus,

John was right, pressing the "Direct Access" then "OTS 1" button will give you the following "Style Information" screen with details of OTS 1 to OTS 4 setting information:


Thanks,
Paul
 

Re: Sound comparison Tyros versus Genos
« Reply #69 on: May 14, 2018, 11:29:26 PM »
Kaarlo,

-------You are also of the opinion that Parameter Lock is sloppily designed, and I would agree with you. But that's what you have to post. You can't claim there's a bug when there's not, but you should certainly post what you think could be improved.

So we would love to hear where you think Tyros is than Genos.
That's what this site is for.

Hope this helps,
Fred

Thanks Fred, and I really mean THANKS, not like you say “how are you” to which the correct answer is “how are you”.
You are correct, stating the Parameter lock had a bug was incorrect, I should have said the implementation of the Parameter Lock is not consistent,  split point  can take a shut off, harmony/mic  can not.

As to what was easier on the Tyros

A German  YAMAHA site recommended that you split the HD into 4 partitions due to the limited amount of subfolders/subfolders/subfoldlers  on Tyros. Mine is partitioned  like most in this region.

As so often what is good for one thing might later bring problems. The splitting made it extremely difficult to transfer reg banks to Genos which prompted YAMAHA Scandinavia to say it was not possible though it could be done in case your HD was not split.  I cited YAMAHA and it turned out the information was not correct for those who did not have a split the HD.

On the Tyros there are 12 STYLE buttons and you can make them go wherever you want on the partitions.  Most of them of course went direct to STYLES  I never use so I put a Brother P-touch sticker on them and made them go where I wanted to of the 200 styles I have tweaked to my liking.  The majority has been collected over the years, some copied from the presets. So pressing for instance DANCE  re-labeled to BLUEGRASS takes me directly to  a page

                                             BLUEGRASS  slow
                                             BLUEGRASS   fast. 

If I want 'Blugrass' fast I click that and immediately  can chose from up to from 10 on the first page.  3 clicks.  (of course if I have tweaked more than ten I would have to go to the next page)
(Not very important: The icons accumulated over the years can surprisingly  be reproduced by Genos. They are very colorful and immediately identifiable.  A great many of the choice offered on Genos are not.  The black ones for instance are not easily identifiable  in difficult lighting situations except that they are black ! To really know which type you are loking at  they should not all be black but  have different colors)

On genos  - maybe my fault – I have found no  way to go directly to my USER STYLES. So I click the STYLE BUTTOM which takes me to the PRESET STYLES  I never use. Then I must click USER  which takes me to my style tree

            COMBO STYLE                        BOOGIE STYLE
            BIG BAND STYLE                     ROCK STYLE
            DIXIELAND STYLE                   WALZ STYLE
            CANTRY STYLE                        BALLAD STYLE
            BLUES STYLE                          MISCELANIOUS STYLE

I would like to go directly  to the USER STYLES as I  copied all preset styles I might use  to the user drive, tweaked them and integrated them  into a  "tree" together with about 200 styles accumulated over a very long time

The same of course applies to songs. When I on  TYROS click  one of the  I – IV SONG BUTTONs  labeled the way I  want them to act they go directly to important often used song pages.

On Genos when I press SONG it goes to a page that for me is useless. I must then make another click to arrive at my song tree


              BALLAD SONGS                           COUNTRY & SHUFFLE SONGS
              COMBO SWING SONGS                LATIN SONGS
              BIG BAND SWING SONGS            WALZ SONGS
              ROCK & BLUES SONGS                 MARCHES
              DIXIELAND SONGS                      MISCELLANIOUS SONGS

So IMHO also choosing a song is easier in Tyros

Off course the assignable buttons,  as the sliders and buttons on Genos are a great incentive to switch to Genos, but unlike those who claim they cannot find anything that could be improved on Genos I feel once we can have a button taking us to the mixer page – you needed far more steps for that on Tyros –  it would be great if we could assign button  A to the Style mixer, B to the 1-8 song mixer and C to the 9 – 16 mixer page and not have to go to the screen for that.

Off topic:   All this is not why I have not switched to Genos yet,  my problem that no-one has so far been able to understand nor solve is the fact that the reg bank saving is still not reliable to put it very kindly.
When I to-day called up  5 reg banks that when called up last Friday worked,  not one works  correctly anymore  though they were left alone.
The   reg information and  what you see when you press Style (and hear) has nothing to do with each other. The only bank that still works is the one containing only Genos preset styles. So  maybe the problem is related to what styles are used and might therefore not show up with users who  use only  Genos preset styles, which would explain the enthusiastic posts of those who have just unpacked their keyboard.  Naby users may not even have a huge stock of styles they do not want to miss.

I made a factory reset of everything except registration. Made no difference.
The only thing that consoles me - albeit a meager one - is the YAMAHA rep here does not claim the the user is the problem as he has seen himself what happens. 

Cheers

Kaarlo
The year you were born is unimportant as long as you can still play your keyboard and don't have to change the treble setting
 

Offline Bachus

Re: Sound comparison Tyros versus Genos
« Reply #70 on: May 15, 2018, 04:05:03 AM »
Hi Bachus,

John was right, pressing the "Direct Access" then "OTS 1" button will give you the following "Style Information" screen with details of OTS 1 to OTS 4 setting information:


Thanks,
Paul

Thanks Paul, that explains it all..
And to be honest, i should have found that by myself, direct access is such a helpfull tool..

Now another question..
Can i save a single OTS setting somewhere, so i can recall it and add it to another style..
Or do i need to save them as a performance?
Keyszone.boards.net for all the latest keyboard news and information.
 

Offline zionip

Re: Sound comparison Tyros versus Genos
« Reply #71 on: May 15, 2018, 04:51:24 AM »
Thanks Paul, that explains it all..
And to be honest, i should have found that by myself, direct access is such a helpfull tool..

Now another question..
Can i save a single OTS setting somewhere, so i can recall it and add it to another style..
Or do i need to save them as a performance?

Hi Bachus,

Yes, you can modify OTS settings, including voices and effects, press "Memory" then the OTS button, and save the changed style as a new user style in the User or USB1 storage area.

The following video explains it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjS6uW-YCCs

Thanks,
Paul
 

Offline panos

Re: Sound comparison Tyros versus Genos
« Reply #72 on: May 15, 2018, 06:15:23 AM »
Bachus I believe it is easier to create some registrations banks with just some favorite OTS voices and nothing else saved in there (no styles and anything else,just voices and their effects).
It is easy to find them this way and you don't have to change the style you working on or playing.
Furthermore, you got 10 OTS settings to choose at once without having to open another file. 
 

Offline Al Ram

Re: Sound comparison Tyros versus Genos
« Reply #73 on: May 15, 2018, 06:56:25 AM »
The only bank that still works is the one containing only Genos preset styles. So  maybe the problem is related to what styles are used and might therefore not show up with users who use only Genos preset styles . . . . ,
Kaarlo

Kaarlo
I use lots of external styles on my Genos (i.e. Styles that did not come with Genos) and have not experienced registrations problems.

You can probably eliminate external styles as a possible source of problem.   I hope you find a solution.

I have all my registrations, external styles, external multipads, external midi songs, etc on a USB stick that i plug into Genos.

I have nothing in the USER area.

thanks
AL
San Diego/Tijuana
 
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Offline Fred Smith

Re: Sound comparison Tyros versus Genos
« Reply #74 on: May 15, 2018, 09:32:05 AM »

As to what was easier on the Tyros

A German  YAMAHA site recommended that you split the HD into 4 partitions due to the limited amount of subfolders/subfolders/subfoldlers  on Tyros. Mine is partitioned  like most in this region.

As so often what is good for one thing might later bring problems. The splitting made it extremely difficult to transfer reg banks to Genos which prompted YAMAHA Scandinavia to say it was not possible though it could be done in case your HD was not split.  I cited YAMAHA and it turned out the information was not correct for those who did not have a split the HD.

On the Tyros there are 12 STYLE buttons and you can make them go wherever you want on the partitions.  Most of them of course went direct to STYLES  I never use so I put a Brother P-touch sticker on them and made them go where I wanted to of the 200 styles I have tweaked to my liking.  The majority has been collected over the years, some copied from the presets. So pressing for instance DANCE  re-labeled to BLUEGRASS takes me directly to  a page

                                             BLUEGRASS  slow
                                             BLUEGRASS   fast. 

If I want 'Blugrass' fast I click that and immediately  can chose from up to from 10 on the first page.  3 clicks.  (of course if I have tweaked more than ten I would have to go to the next page)
(Not very important: The icons accumulated over the years can surprisingly  be reproduced by Genos. They are very colorful and immediately identifiable.  A great many of the choice offered on Genos are not.  The black ones for instance are not easily identifiable  in difficult lighting situations except that they are black ! To really know which type you are loking at  they should not all be black but  have different colors)

On genos  - maybe my fault – I have found no  way to go directly to my USER STYLES. So I click the STYLE BUTTOM which takes me to the PRESET STYLES  I never use. Then I must click USER  which takes me to my style tree

            COMBO STYLE                        BOOGIE STYLE
            BIG BAND STYLE                     ROCK STYLE
            DIXIELAND STYLE                   WALZ STYLE
            CANTRY STYLE                        BALLAD STYLE
            BLUES STYLE                          MISCELANIOUS STYLE

I would like to go directly  to the USER STYLES as I  copied all preset styles I might use  to the user drive, tweaked them and integrated them  into a  "tree" together with about 200 styles accumulated over a very long time

The same of course applies to songs. When I on  TYROS click  one of the  I – IV SONG BUTTONs  labeled the way I  want them to act they go directly to important often used song pages.

On Genos when I press SONG it goes to a page that for me is useless. I must then make another click to arrive at my song tree


              BALLAD SONGS                           COUNTRY & SHUFFLE SONGS
              COMBO SWING SONGS                LATIN SONGS
              BIG BAND SWING SONGS            WALZ SONGS
              ROCK & BLUES SONGS                 MARCHES
              DIXIELAND SONGS                      MISCELLANIOUS SONGS

So IMHO also choosing a song is easier in Tyros

Off course the assignable buttons,  as the sliders and buttons on Genos are a great incentive to switch to Genos, but unlike those who claim they cannot find anything that could be improved on Genos I feel once we can have a button taking us to the mixer page – you needed far more steps for that on Tyros –  it would be great if we could assign button  A to the Style mixer, B to the 1-8 song mixer and C to the 9 – 16 mixer page and not have to go to the screen for that.

Cheers

Kaarlo

In summary, you'd like additional options for the assignable buttons. That's a reasonable enhancement request to send to Yamaha.

Fred
Fred Smith,
Saskatoon, SK
Sun Lakes, AZ
Genos, Bose L1 compacts, Finale 2015
Check out my Registration Lessons
 

Offline Bachus

Re: Sound comparison Tyros versus Genos
« Reply #75 on: May 15, 2018, 02:09:38 PM »
Hi Bachus,

Yes, you can modify OTS settings, including voices and effects, press "Memory" then the OTS button, and save the changed style as a new user style in the User or USB1 storage area.

The following video explains it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjS6uW-YCCs

Thanks,
Paul

I am sorry Paul, that was not my question, how to save an OTS setting with a style


Bachus I believe it is easier to create some registrations banks with just some favorite OTS voices and nothing else saved in there (no styles and anything else,just voices and their effects).
It is easy to find them this way and you don't have to change the style you working on or playing.
Furthermore, you got 10 OTS settings to choose at once without having to open another file.

This was what i meant.. saving a single voice setup...
Was hoping there was a way to do this witouth using registrations..
But then on the T5 i had a horde of registration maps with just soundsettings..

What got me spoiled a little was the pa4x, where you can save these voice setups as keyboardsets
And easilly recall them..

Personally, i think a voice setup, is even more importat to save then a single user voice, i am a huge fan of layering sounds...
Keyszone.boards.net for all the latest keyboard news and information.
 

Offline voodoo

Re: Sound comparison Tyros versus Genos
« Reply #76 on: May 15, 2018, 03:59:25 PM »
This was what i meant.. saving a single voice setup...
Was hoping there was a way to do this witouth using registrations..
But then on the T5 i had a horde of registration maps with just soundsettings..

What got me spoiled a little was the pa4x, where you can save these voice setups as keyboardsets
And easilly recall them..

Personally, i think a voice setup, is even more importat to save then a single user voice, i am a huge fan of layering sounds...

Bachus,

I understand your point. I have seen the keyboard sets on the PA series, which present something that formerly has been called "combinations" or "multis". They can be called anytime from separate keys leaving all other settings as they are.

I think that the Yamaha way to do this is to use registrations which only contain the keyboard settings. This is nearly the same. But I understand that the handling is a little different. By loading another registration from another folder we loose the context from what has been before.

Uli
Yamaha Genos (finally)
Nord Electro 5D
 

Offline SeaGtGruff

Re: Sound comparison Tyros versus Genos
« Reply #77 on: May 15, 2018, 07:11:44 PM »
Pino, I apologize if my comments were misunderstood due to a lack of clarity on my part. I was specifically addressing the claim you said your dealer had made as to why there are no iPad apps for editing styles, because I was questioning whether his reasoning is supported by the facts: (a) Yamaha MusicSoft hasn't put a stop to all the third-party style-editing programs for PC; and (b) Yamaha includes a Style Creator feature on their best-selling arranger workstations. So it seems to me that your dealer's claim that it's because Yamaha MusicSoft wants to sell styles (i.e., wants to force customers to buy styles from them) doesn't hold water.

I wasn't commenting about your desire for changes to the onboard Style Creator feature, and/or an iPad app for this purpose. To be frank, I'm not too familiar with the existing Style Creator feature, since none of the models I own have it, so for me anything would be an improvement over what I have now, which is nothing.

As far as removing parts of a style-- Intro II, Intro III, etc.-- I know that Jorgen's Style ReMixer program can do that easily.

But to get back to the issue of iPad apps, it might be that part of the reason we don't see more of those is due to the way that Apple controls the App Store-- it's not like on the PC where programmers can easily create their own programs for others to install and use, because (as far as I know) iPad apps must be installed through the App Store. Perhaps Yamaha has some kind of agreement with Apple that any apps which are specific to Yamaha keyboards must come from Yamaha themselves, or must at least be approved by Yamaha? There are certainly third-party apps which can be used with Yamaha keyboards-- e.g., for song lists, MIDI control, etc.-- but those apps can be used with many different brands of keyboards, not just Yamaha.

I suppose the only way to find out is for someone to write an app for editing Yamaha styles and submit it for publication in the App Store to see if Apple allows it or not-- and if they do not, what reason they give as to why not.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2018, 07:12:45 PM by SeaGtGruff »
Michael Rideout
Current keyboards: Yamaha YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443, PSR-EW400, MX49 BK
Current controllers: M-Audio Axiom 61-II
Previous keyboards: Farfisa Matador 611; Casio CTK-710
 

Offline EileenL

Re: Sound comparison Tyros versus Genos
« Reply #78 on: May 15, 2018, 07:30:32 PM »
Hello Kaarlo,
  I got into the habit of creating registrations along with Third party styles a long time ago and have stuck to that system through out. I would chose a song I wanted to play and then I would make a folder up in which I saved the style I wanted to use and Multi pads Plus the registration. I then selected the Registration plus style and Multi pads from this folder and then resaved to the Registration bank thus creating the link. I then re-saved the registration bank. Now all was in tack. I then built up my gig set list this way. I have been able to transfer these setting to every keyboard I have had since Tyros 1. Needless to say they all work perfectly in Genos.
  Was told by Yamaha right from the start of using Hard Drives in keyboards Never to Partition them as they would not work properly.
 
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Offline pjd

Re: Sound comparison Tyros versus Genos
« Reply #79 on: May 15, 2018, 11:30:20 PM »
I suppose the only way to find out is for someone to write an app for editing Yamaha styles and submit it for publication in the App Store to see if Apple allows it or not-- and if they do not, what reason they give as to why not.

Hi Michael and folks --

Michael, I always enjoy your posts.

I think part of the issue is the way Yamaha addresses third party development. Yamaha does not take an open source approach where it publishes a open format specifications or API. An open spec/API is a commitment to support the spec/API and limits flexibility to change the spec/API whenever necessary. I've been here with this kind of decision with a software product and the commitment has to be weighed very carefully.

On the Yamaha Synth forum, Phil (Bad Mister) indicated that Yamaha will work with third parties in a one-to-one relationship. That's why the Motif/Montage is supported so well by the John Melas tool suite. If someone is a serious third party developer, they may contact Yamaha directly and build the relationship.

I'm an open source, open spec kind of guy, myself. However, I do understand the one-to-one partnership model and have seen business decisions go that way, too.

Why Yamaha doesn't develop and roll out more tablet-based apps? Probably due to their own resource limitations. Yamaha software development is not as huge as people might believe.

Hope this adds to our understanding -- pj
 

Offline mikf

Re: Sound comparison Tyros versus Genos
« Reply #80 on: May 16, 2018, 06:26:12 AM »
Most likely Yamaha does not improve the style creator or supply apps for this because it would take development and they do not see it as significantly driving TOTL arranger sales.
 I have delved quite deep into the style creator in the past, and understand its limitations and I think we all know that their own developers must have much better tools than they make available to us. But I imagine they feel that to make these available would be to sell off the family jewels. I have to agree that from their perspective they appear to be right, because they continue to lead the market.   
Mike
 

Online Pino

Re: Sound comparison Tyros versus Genos
« Reply #81 on: May 16, 2018, 05:44:01 PM »
Michael, no apology needed,
I always read your very informative posts,

Regards
Pino
S910 - S950 - S970 - Maui 5s
 

Online Pino

Re: Sound comparison Tyros versus Genos
« Reply #82 on: May 16, 2018, 05:48:22 PM »
This is what I’ve said for a long, long time, I hope I am not shot down again,

I am an arranger keyboard player/performer, I need good quality styles to do my work with good song intros and endings, you may say there are 1,000 of styles out there but the fact is there isn’t,
These styles have just a small edit to the original Yamaha style and unusable or need so much work to edit that it’s not worth the hassle, mostly a waste of time.

I do edit all the styles that I use,   wouldn’t it be nice to be able to cut an intro from a midi file, sort out the tracks and just plant it onto the front of an existing Yamaha style without having to use 2 or 3 different 3rd party apps and then spend half a day tweaking.

Re: Yamaha resources,
Surely if a small time guy in Poland can turn out a reasonably good bit of style editing software called StyleMagic for just $63. then how much resources would it have taken the massive Yamaha, owner of Cubase software and makers of iPad apps and a multitude of musical instruments, to turn out an even better bit of software, there’s more to it than just resources.


There must be something else holding them back that they have not updated their on-board “Style Creator’ in the past 20 years, when the new Genos appeared, I really did think that they would have follows up with 2 or 3 iPad apps for editing voices and styles, but nothing to date.

So, I’m still thinking that Yamaha want us to buy their styles and packs rather than edit our own.

Some good news,  the new Yammex module is ready for shipping in the next 2 weeks, that gives PSR players  new voices as good as Genos, Klaus from V3 Sounds recons that they will upload ‘you tube’ videos next week,
Look forward to that,  :)

Regards

Pino

« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 08:27:16 PM by Pino »
S910 - S950 - S970 - Maui 5s
 

Offline DerekA

Re: Sound comparison Tyros versus Genos
« Reply #83 on: May 16, 2018, 08:01:06 PM »
I tend to agree with you there Pino - I was initially surprised that there was no official Yamaha software for creating styles.

A couple of years ago I played around building a small utility to read XML files that described a style (using a schema I just made up), and output an.sty file. It was based on the very useful information provided by Jorgen on the file format. I didn't get too far before being distracted but it did work for creating a simple style. So it's possible to build style creation software without too much effort.

I suspect Yamaha just don't want to be buried under a huge pile of feature requests, or to have to  maintain compatibility across different models which have different voices / effects available.
Tyros5
 

Re: Sound comparison Tyros versus Genos
« Reply #84 on: May 16, 2018, 10:16:22 PM »
Hi everyone,
I must have missed something here. After struggling a bit like with every thing that is a bit different, the style creator on Genos to me seems an improvement over TYROS. Maybe I missed that, but can you on Tyros change a flute to a baritone sax in a Style. Is there this page where you can alter the range in which the  style voice is reproduced ?  The style creator is very important because often you do want to change the instruments. Like for instance when the style is a piano rag time. I do not want the bass to be a bass, I want it to be a piano. That can be done, the octave changed to suit the song and the guitar removed as  I have not seen a video showing Falts Waller with a guitar player. But that of course are minor alterations,  not creating a style.

Cheers

Kaarlo
The year you were born is unimportant as long as you can still play your keyboard and don't have to change the treble setting
 

Online Pino

Re: Sound comparison Tyros versus Genos
« Reply #85 on: May 16, 2018, 10:29:21 PM »
Kaarlo
All that you mentions in your post are just minor edits and can be done in a few minutes on the existing on-board ‘style creator’, then save the style in a different name to your user bank,
eg, BigBandBallad to BigBandBallad2, you just need to take a few minutes to study it.
Make the styles YOUR styles, time well spent,
Regards
Pino
S910 - S950 - S970 - Maui 5s
 

Offline travlin-easy

Re: Sound comparison Tyros versus Genos
« Reply #86 on: May 17, 2018, 12:32:54 AM »
Keep in mind that very few individuals have the skill or ability to create any style from scratch. I have done this, it is very, very time consuming and the results are usually marginal at best.

Now, contrary to what was stated previously, there are literally thousands of excellent styles available on this site. Granted, some are just modified styles from Yamaha, but there are many others from Korg, Roland, and other manufacturers, and many are song specific with the correct intros and endings, have fantastic OTS voices and excellent multi-pads.

I have spent more than 3 decades on stage performing with these styles, both original and modified styles, and both I and my audiences have never been disappointed with what Yamaha has offered. Insofar as sound differences between the Tyros and Genos, while they may be subtle to some, I found some of the new voices to be absolutely incredible based upon what I have heard listening to demos from both pro and amateur providers.

That said, there are a small number of individuals on this site who love to tinker with styles and voices using various forms of software, and that's just fine. I applaud them for their efforts. For the most part, the vast majority of our forum members just want to play their keyboards and enjoy the beautiful music they are capable of producing. 

From my perspective, there is no better sounding keyboard on the market today than Yamaha's Genos - NONE! Yamaha has provided me with the total entertainment package for decades, and at an excellent price. While the Genos is somewhat expensive, it's still within the budget of most full-time entertainers.

If there are individuals here that cannot find high quality styles that are song specific on this site, I suggest they are not looking hard enough.

Good luck,

Gary 8)
Love Those Yammies...
 

Offline mikf

Re: Sound comparison Tyros versus Genos
« Reply #87 on: May 17, 2018, 01:11:43 AM »
 Yamaha sales have not appeared to suffer due to the style creation feature, so if you were Yamaha, why would you devote resources to it?
 I think this issue is quite simple, its just not high on Yamaha's agenda, and that will not change no matter how many times a few people on forum's raise it. It will change only if Yamaha see that it affects overall hardware sales, and this is not that likely, because there are simply not enough buyers to whom this is a deal breaker to shift the needle.
Mike
 
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Online Joe H

Re: Sound comparison Tyros versus Genos
« Reply #88 on: May 17, 2018, 01:13:46 AM »

Re: Yamaha resources,
Surely if a small time guy in Poland can turn out a reasonably good bit of style editing software called StyleMagic for just $63. then how much resources would it have taken the massive Yamaha, owner of Cubase software and makers of iPad apps and a multitude of musical instruments, to turn out an even better bit of software, there’s more to it than just resources...

... So, I’m still thinking that Yamaha want us to buy their styles and packs rather than edit our own...

Regards

Pino

It's more than resources... it's a matter of return on investment.  It is not possible to just load a MIDI file and turn it into a style Intro.  StyleMagic is your best bet.  But it requires us to rearrange the MIDI channels to match the style channels format, then convert the MIDI to CMaj7 scale, add an Intro Marker, then convert the MIDI to a style... save the Intro to disk, load your style you want to modify; delete the Intro you want to replace... then Import your new Intro created from the MIDI file.

There is NO software code that can perform those operations, it has to be done manually.  I speak from my own experience of creating styles from MIDI files and modifying dozens of others.  These days I mostly build new styles on the keyboard using Style Creator Assembly.  But many style Main Sections I create from scratch or copy from Multi Pads and convert to a style first so I can copy the style PART into my custom style using Style Creator Assembly.

No short cuts!

 :(

Joe H
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 01:15:18 AM by Joe H »
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 
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Offline pjd

Re: Sound comparison Tyros versus Genos
« Reply #89 on: May 17, 2018, 02:38:43 AM »
Keep in mind that very few individuals have the skill or ability to create any style from scratch. I have done this, it is very, very time consuming and the results are usually marginal at best.

Amen to that. I created styles starting with DJX-II patterns:

http://sandsoftwaresound.net/free-djx-ii-styles-for-psr/

And Motif/MOX Performances:

http://sandsoftwaresound.net/motif-styles-for-your-arranger/

Even starting with that source material, it is a lot of work both technical and musical.

All the best -- pj

Re: Sound comparison Tyros versus Genos
« Reply #90 on: May 17, 2018, 05:48:10 AM »
Kaarlo
All that you mentions in your post are just minor edits and can be done in a few minutes on the existing on-board ‘style creator’, then save the style in a different name to your user bank,
eg, BigBandBallad to BigBandBallad2, you just need to take a few minutes to study it.
Make the styles YOUR styles, time well spent,
Regards
Pino

That is exactly how I believe it is,  I was just wondering whether I was wrong feeling the Genos Style creator is better than the Tyros version of it. So what I meant is:  some here have written YAMAHA has not improved the style creator in years, was I wrong feeling they actually did?

Cheers

Kaarlo
The year you were born is unimportant as long as you can still play your keyboard and don't have to change the treble setting
 

Offline travlin-easy

Re: Sound comparison Tyros versus Genos
« Reply #91 on: May 17, 2018, 06:22:43 AM »
Kaarlos, I look a the style creator like an old Volkswagen Beetle - you really don't need to add anything to something that has a proven track record. While it takes a bit of work to effectively learn all the ins and outs of Style Creator, it is an excellent, onboard program that can do just about anything you wish with any style, especially when used in conjunction with some of the other, onboard features.

Good luck,

Gary 8)
Love Those Yammies...
 
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