Author Topic: How to integrate external sound modules  (Read 16696 times)

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Offline voodoo

How to integrate external sound modules
« on: May 04, 2018, 04:31:17 PM »
Hi,

based on the concept of the yammex sound module, I tried how to integrate external sound modules into Genos. There are two ways, which I will propose here.

1. Using YEM

In YEM we can build packs containing dummy voices, which do nothing, but sending out MSB/LSB/PC messages to midi out. There we have:

* MSB is always 063 (for regular voices) or 062 (for drum voices).
* LSB is configurable freely
* PC (Program Change number) is configurable freely.

Using this, we can build our own expansion pack containing only dummy voices to control external sound modules. When our sound module only listens to PC, or to LSB/PC this will work fine. However, we have some caveats:

* For MSB we can choose only 062 or 063.
* For LSB we have to configure the LSB assignment in YEM. This is a little bit uncomfortable when we have several packs.
* Each LSB number can be used only once.

What is the problem with the unique LSB? Let's consider the Korg M1 (or the virtual iM1 for iPad). For each bank number there is a set of programs, when the M1 is in program mode, and there is a set of multis, when M1 is in multi mode. Both bank share the same LSB number. But we cannot use two different packs in YEM which have the same LSB number.

2. Using voice files (without YEM)

There is another way to build dummy voices:

* Select any voice in Genos
* Save this voice as user voice to the USB stick as a myVoice.vce file
* Make many copies of this and rename them as you like
* Use any midi or hex editor to set the MSB/LSB/PC values in this voice file
* Copy all voice files back to USB stick and call them directly from Genos without pack installation.

In the attachment, I send some example voice files for different MSB/LSB/PC combinations. You can rename and use them as you want. Here we have the following advantages:

* We can use any MSB/LSB/PC combination without restrictions
* We can use several copies of MSB/LSB/PC combination without restrictions
* We can put voices from different banks into the same folder
* We can use them on the fly from USB stick (or internal storage) without pack installation.

Note the following observations:

* When you set the MSB/LSB/PC values to banks that are used by Genos, theses voices are called.
* So, to not interfere with other voices, use fantasy bank numbers as MSB=064 or MSB=100.
* When we set MSB=0 or MSB=1, we can call all hidden GM/XG voices of the Genos. For example with MSB/LSB/PC=0/0/0 we get the standard GM piano sound.

What do you think of this? Is it a solution?

Uli



« Last Edit: May 04, 2018, 04:56:44 PM by voodoo »
Yamaha Genos
Yamaha MODX7
Yamaha P-125 Digital Piano
Nord Electro 5D
 

Offline voodoo

Re: How to integrate external sound modules
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2018, 04:46:02 PM »
Here is an example for calling some GM voices.
Yamaha Genos
Yamaha MODX7
Yamaha P-125 Digital Piano
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Offline Joe H

Re: How to integrate external sound modules
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2018, 02:49:53 PM »
... There is another way to build dummy voices:

* Select any voice in Genos
* Save this voice as user voice to the USB stick as a myVoice.vce file
* Make many copies of this and rename them as you like
* Use any midi or hex editor to set the MSB/LSB/PC values in this voice file
* Copy all voice files back to USB stick and call them directly from Genos without pack installation...

I tried this on my S970.  I get the same results as with the S910... It does not work on the PSR arrangers.  The OS filters the "illegal" Voice message.  I wrote a Voice message for my Analog plug-in card installed in my MU128 sound module.  After I edited the .vce file in MixMaster I send the message from MixMaster and it worked.  When I tried to load the AN User Voice on the keyboard it did not work.  So I changed the file extension from .vce to .mid and play the file in MixMaster and it worked but did NOT work when the MIDI file was played on the S970 sequencer.  I tried to edit the .vce file on the keyboard, and got a message that the file could not edited.

The PSR OS  will filter out all non-supported Voice messages and any other MIDI messages not supported by the keyboard.  I think this was done to keep people like me from corrupting the operation of the keyboard. This was the case with the S910 and still is the case with the S970.

I am working on building a dummy Voice bank for the Motif Rack XS User Voice Bank 1 and the User Multi Bank.  They work flawlessly once I have my custom MIDI configuration loaded which is set up with Local Off on R1, Transmit MIDI for R1... Note, CC, PC, PB and AT.  For Receive MIDI... PB and AT only.

The result of this setting is that when I select this custom MIDI configuration, I hear only the Motif sounds for R1 which play just like the S970 Voices and I can play along with styles using the Motif R1 Voice(s).  When I open the Motif dummy Voice pack on the S970, I have direct access to my favorite Motif Voices or Multis (by name)... 10 Voices per page.  The other advantage of creating a dummy pack is that with Vali's new utility... YEM Content Explorer we can generate Voice definition files for MixMaster, PadMaker and PadMaker-Midi as well as StyleMagic YA and Midiworks YA.  It is important to add our own support for the custom packs we install on our keyboards.

Joe H
« Last Edit: May 05, 2018, 03:00:17 PM by Joe H »
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Offline ugawoga

Re: How to integrate external sound modules
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2018, 06:49:47 PM »
Hi
Can't you just midi up and sound out to sound In on Genos and the expander sounds are there through the outs of your main speakers.
Also use an external mixer a possibility
That way you can blend sounds from Genos an external device

all the best
John


"Oh sausages then!! ;D
« Last Edit: May 06, 2018, 04:14:12 AM by ugawoga »
 

Offline voodoo

Re: How to integrate external sound modules
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2018, 08:22:59 PM »
I tried this on my S970.  I get the same results as with the S910... It does not work on the PSR arrangers.

Hi Joe,

wow, I did not expect this. This is a little disappointing. Have you tried to locate the cause for the problem? Do user voices never send out midi? Or does the OS know, which bank numbers are legal and which are not? Can there be another cause for the problem? Like corrupting the voice files by editing them?

Have you tested this:

* Save any S970 voice as user voice.
* Monitor the midi out if it sends the MSB/LSB/PC
* Edit the voice file to some other voice number
* Check, which combinations work and which do not

I have seen, that the Genoss does not send all the other midi information from the voice file. It only sends the MSB/LSB/PC. So there seems to a filter, too. I will experiment a little more on this topic.

Uli
Yamaha Genos
Yamaha MODX7
Yamaha P-125 Digital Piano
Nord Electro 5D
 

Offline Joe H

Re: How to integrate external sound modules
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2018, 10:44:58 PM »
Uli,

I will do a little more experimenting, but I'm not to optimistic that things will work. 

As I noted above, I first ran into this problem on my S910.  I was baffled by it and thought I was doing something wrong.  But came to the conclusion that Yamaha has made great effort to prevent users/players of the arranger from corrupting the operation of the keyboard.

Fortunately for me the Motif uses MSB 063/062 for it's Voices. It is a lot of work to setup the User Voice and User Multi banks on the Motif and create the dummy Voice banks in YEM but it will be worth it in the long run.  I have downloaded a 3rd party Voice bank produce by JayB from Germany.  JayB's sounds are superior to Yamaha Preset Voices.

 :)    8)

I'm really glad I bought the Motif Rack XS because now I have the power of a real synth as an extension of my Arranger... I have the best of both worlds!  As I mentioned in another thread I will write a User Guide for how to integrate the Motif with the arranger.  Many concepts will work for other external instruments as well.  I use the Virtual Acoustic, Analog and DX/FM plug-in cards as external sounds for my S970 too.  So was hoping your idea for editing Voice Set files would work. I have had to use my Peavey PC1600x MIDI controller to select those plug-in Voices.  I'll post again after I try a couple more experiments.


Regards,
Joe H
« Last Edit: May 05, 2018, 10:54:08 PM by Joe H »
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Offline Patrick

Re: How to integrate external sound modules
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2018, 11:38:57 AM »
Hi Uli, i've tried you're Gm voices, and it's works well on my S970; I can load the voices from USB and we can also edit all the voices; perhaps because the voices are on the S970? Have a nice sunday Patrick

 :)
 

Offline Joe H

Re: How to integrate external sound modules
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2018, 12:36:48 AM »
Uli,

I did some more testing.  I edited the Grand Piano Voice Set file in MixMaster to MSB 36 LSB 2 PC 60.  Played the file and it worked correctly to call up the Voice Pastel on my AN plug-in card.  When I loaded this as a User Voice from my USB stick it called up the wrong Voice.

So I loaded it back into MixMaster and deleted all the sysex messages and tried playing the file again from MixMaster and it worked.  When I tried loading the file as a User Voice on the keyboard I got an error message staing the file did load correctly.  Next tried changing the Pastel.vce to Pastel.mid and played the file from MixMaster and it worked.  The file contained just the time signature, tempo, MSB = 36, LSB 2, PC = 60.

So next I loaded the MIDI file Pastel.mid into the S970 sequencer... hit play and it did not work.

I think if someone who has a Genos and an external keyboard other than a GM instrument could try this to see if the Genos will send non-keyboard Voice messages we could resolve the issue for the Genos.  It does not work on the PSR arrangers. Maybe writing the Voice message as a sysex string might work but that is not doable for most people.

Joe H
« Last Edit: May 07, 2018, 12:38:52 AM by Joe H »
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Offline Joe H

Re: How to integrate external sound modules
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2018, 01:29:26 AM »
I did another test.  This time I edited a User Voice file I created from my custom expansion Voice pack that I know works.  I edit it in MixMaster and removed all messages but the Time Signature, Tempo and MSB, LSB, and PC.    -- > MSB 063   LSB 020   PC 001

I got the same error message when I tried to load the modified User Voice... "file did load properly"

Joe H
« Last Edit: May 07, 2018, 01:34:00 AM by Joe H »
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Offline voodoo

Re: How to integrate external sound modules
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2018, 10:00:29 PM »
Hi Joe,

I have seen, that MixMaster changes the structure of the midi file. So perhaps it would be better to use a hex editor instead of MixMaster for voice files. I Have generated some example voice files using MixMaster and will test them on the Genos tonight. I will give an update about this later.

Uli
Yamaha Genos
Yamaha MODX7
Yamaha P-125 Digital Piano
Nord Electro 5D
 

Offline voodoo

Re: How to integrate external sound modules
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2018, 05:01:11 PM »
Joe,

I verified that Voice files do not work after they have been edited with MixMaster.

* After loading and saving them they do not send program changes any more.
* After removing events, they give the message "cannot be loaded properly".

So it is necessary to edit voice files with a hex editor like "Hex-Editor MX" for windows or "iHex" for Mac. I will post some generic voice files for different banks later.

Uli
Yamaha Genos
Yamaha MODX7
Yamaha P-125 Digital Piano
Nord Electro 5D
 

Offline voodoo

Re: How to integrate external sound modules
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2018, 10:01:40 PM »
Hi Joe and others,

here I post some generic voice files for several banks:

* Bank-00-00: GM - Use this to call the GM voices of the Genos

* Bank-36-02: This is for Joe and his AN plug-in card

* Bank-63-00: Use this for example for Motif Rack XS Preset Bank 1
* Bank-63-01: Use this for example for Motif Rack XS Preset Bank 2
* Bank-63-02: Use this for example for Motif Rack XS Preset Bank 3
* Bank-63-03: Use this for example for Motif Rack XS Preset Bank 4
* Bank-63-04: Use this for example for Motif Rack XS Preset Bank 5
* Bank-63-05: Use this for example for Motif Rack XS Preset Bank 6
* Bank-63-06: Use this for example for Motif Rack XS Preset Bank 7
* Bank-63-07: Use this for example for Motif Rack XS Preset Bank 8

* Bank-64-00: Use this for sound modules which need only PC. Bank number 64 is just dummy.
* Bank-64-01: Use this for sound modules which react to LSB=01, for example M1 EX Presets
* Bank-64-02: Use this for sound modules which react to LSB=02, for example M1 Memory
* Bank-64-03: Use this for sound modules which react to LSB=03, for example M1 Synth 1

If these voice files work for you, you can rename them as you like.

Joe, can you test these voice files on the S970?

Uli

P.S.: I used a hex editor to generate the PC numbers of one bank. Then I used grepWin to change the bank numbers of all files of a bank by one click.
P.P.S.: The program change numbers are zero-based. Add one, if you want to start counting from one. ;)
« Last Edit: May 08, 2018, 10:06:22 PM by voodoo »
Yamaha Genos
Yamaha MODX7
Yamaha P-125 Digital Piano
Nord Electro 5D
 
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Offline Joe H

Re: How to integrate external sound modules
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2018, 11:03:24 PM »
I have created a dummy Motif Voice User Bank 1 which is written 063 008.  And I have also created a User Multi bank written 063 068. This was done in YEM.

These both work fine.  I have them installed on my S970 and have written the names of the Voices and Multis in YEM so I can see them on my S970 screen. .  They work flawlessly.  I'll test your .vce files and get back to you.

Joe H
« Last Edit: May 08, 2018, 11:09:35 PM by Joe H »
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Offline Joe H

Re: How to integrate external sound modules
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2018, 11:23:40 PM »
Uli,

I've tested your files.  All the Motif banks work and call up the Voices but the numbers are off by 1. 

Example: I select Voice 2 and it calls up Voice 3.  I select Voice 7 and it call up Voice 8.

The bank 64 works for the MU128 sound module but there aren't many Voices on that bank.

so... next I tried to open a Voice Set file and got the sam message as befor when I edited one in MixMaster... This file cannot be edited.

The dummy Voice banks I created in YEM I CAN open in Voice Set and edited the files if I want.

Joe H
« Last Edit: May 08, 2018, 11:26:41 PM by Joe H »
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Offline Joe H

Re: How to integrate external sound modules
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2018, 12:23:33 AM »
I did another test with the installed dummy Voice pack I creating YEM.  The Motif responds to all XG / GM2 sound controllers.  When I open Voice Set and adjust the Reverb, Chorus, Attack, Release, Filter or Resonance the Motif responds.  But when I save the Voice Set file and load the that same Voice using the User Voice (modified Voice set file) the setting are not applied to the Motif Voice.

My guess is that the Voice on the Motif loads too slowly and the Voice Set file is sending these modifications too early for the changes to be applied to the Motif Voice.   The one exception is the Arpeggio Type save in the .vce file.  When I press the Harmony/Arp button the correct arp plays for the Motif Voice.  If I open Voice set after the Motif Voice is loaded then any parameter in Voice Set is applied to that Motif Voice.

Example:  If I adjust the reverb, Chorus, Attack or Release Rate, these are applied to the Motif Voice.  It's just that we cannot save these settings and expect them to be applied when we load the Voice Set file.

Whether this is the case with the Yammex sound module we need to find out. If we cannot modify a Yammex Voice with Voice Set and save those custom settings it may or may not worth buying the module depending on your individual needs.  I can assume the Yammex Voices are very high quality because of the large wave memory.

Joe H
« Last Edit: May 09, 2018, 12:27:31 AM by Joe H »
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Offline voodoo

Re: How to integrate external sound modules
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2018, 06:01:45 PM »
so... next I tried to open a Voice Set file and got the sam message as befor when I edited one in MixMaster... This file cannot be edited.
The dummy Voice banks I created in YEM I CAN open in Voice Set and edited the files if I want.

Hi Joe,

I have tested the voices files on the Genos, and here they can be edited. So I think, they cannot be edited on the S970, because they are in Genos format containing more parameters (for example the switch for mono legato).

So if you need other banks than 062/063, you could use a S970 voice file and patch it to another bank number.

Uli
Yamaha Genos
Yamaha MODX7
Yamaha P-125 Digital Piano
Nord Electro 5D
 

Offline Joe H

Re: How to integrate external sound modules
« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2018, 10:43:18 PM »
. So I think, they cannot be edited on the S970, because they are in Genos format containing more parameters (for example the switch for mono legato).
Uli

So lets test your theory. Can you post a Genos Preset Voice we know is in  the S970 that you opened, (edited the Volume) and then saved in Genos Voice Set?  Maybe the Grand Piano.

Joe H
« Last Edit: May 09, 2018, 10:45:57 PM by Joe H »
Music is the Universal Language!

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Offline voodoo

Re: How to integrate external sound modules
« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2018, 11:38:16 PM »
So lets test your theory. Can you post a Genos Preset Voice we know is in  the S970 that you opened, (edited the Volume) and then saved in Genos Voice Set?  Maybe the Grand Piano.

Joe H

I will do as you say.

Uli
Yamaha Genos
Yamaha MODX7
Yamaha P-125 Digital Piano
Nord Electro 5D
 

Offline Joe H

Re: How to integrate external sound modules
« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2018, 11:42:27 PM »
Uli,

I did another test. I loaded the Legacy Concert Grand and edited the Chorus Send in MixMaster and saved.  It loaded in Voice Set on my S970 and I was able to open the file in Voice Set and look at the change I made in MixMaster.  So... We still don't know what is the issue is here.

 ???

Joe
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads in registrations. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline Joe H

Re: How to integrate external sound modules
« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2018, 11:50:53 PM »
Next test... I loaded the same Legacy Grand Piano back into MixMaster and deleted all the sysex.  It opened on the S970 Voice Set and I could see the parameters.

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads in registrations. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline Marty

Re: How to integrate external sound modules
« Reply #20 on: May 11, 2018, 07:21:52 PM »
Hi,

Using one of Uli's vce files I edited with MixMaster and have generated a minimum vce voice file configuration which loads on my 770 without error.
For testing I am using the IOS Sunrizer synth with the midiflow app. for remapping the MSB bank select. Works a charm!

Voice file in attachment.
 
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Offline voodoo

Re: How to integrate external sound modules
« Reply #21 on: May 11, 2018, 07:33:59 PM »
Marty,

thank you very much. Perfect.

Uli
Yamaha Genos
Yamaha MODX7
Yamaha P-125 Digital Piano
Nord Electro 5D
 

Offline voodoo

Re: How to integrate external sound modules
« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2018, 07:44:13 PM »
Marty,

here is a screen shot of your voice file opened in MixMaster. You have left in there

* NRPN 001/100 = EG DECAY TIME
* NRPN 001/102 = EG RELEASE TIME

(according to this XG documentation: http://www.studio4all.de/htmle/main91.html#xgprgsystem03 )

Are these messages important?

Uli
Yamaha Genos
Yamaha MODX7
Yamaha P-125 Digital Piano
Nord Electro 5D
 

Offline Marty

Re: How to integrate external sound modules
« Reply #23 on: May 11, 2018, 08:48:46 PM »
Hi Uli,

Yes they seem to be.  The voice file will not load on my 770 without these NPRN events

Marty


Offline voodoo

Re: How to integrate external sound modules
« Reply #24 on: May 11, 2018, 08:55:56 PM »
Marty,

perfect, great work. I will try to use your template for my projects.

Have you tried to open the voice editor on the S770? Does this work without all the other messages?

Uli
Yamaha Genos
Yamaha MODX7
Yamaha P-125 Digital Piano
Nord Electro 5D
 

Offline Marty

Re: How to integrate external sound modules
« Reply #25 on: May 11, 2018, 10:11:27 PM »
Hi Uli,

Voice cannot be edited with 'voice set'. Your original voice files are also unable to be edited with 'voice set' on my 770.

Marty
 

Offline Bachus

Re: How to integrate external sound modules
« Reply #26 on: May 13, 2018, 12:02:19 AM »
Very interesting topic...

I could use this to call patches in mainstage..
Mainstage is currently the host for both my VST’s
As well as for my racks (motif XS, Integra7, Gemini)
Its currently controller by my Kronos..

When i decide on a Genos, i will replace Kronos with a kawai VPC1
Having both instruments directly on top of eachother..

I will be follwing this topic closely, any more information is appreciated ...
Keyszone.boards.net for all the latest keyboard news and information.
 

Offline Joe H

Re: How to integrate external sound modules
« Reply #27 on: May 13, 2018, 05:30:11 AM »
Bachus, 

FYI... If you should decided buy another Yamaha arranger in the future, I will be posting my custom Motif XS (synth) User Voice bank and the dummy expansion pack created in YEM with matching voice names that you can load into the arranger to call up the Motif Voices.  I'm still tweaking the voices to make sure all the volumes are approximately equal, and adjusting some of the DSPs a bit.

I am quite pleased at how the Yamaha arranger and Motif integrate so well. It's like having a hybrid arranger / synth instrument. I will start writing a User Guide soon for how to do this because I know a few of us here have both instruments.

 :)

Joe H 
« Last Edit: May 13, 2018, 05:31:41 AM by Joe H »
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Offline voodoo

Re: How to integrate external sound modules
« Reply #28 on: May 14, 2018, 04:22:24 PM »
Joe,

I investigated  in editing dummy voices in Genos. My result: You cannot edit user voice set files, unless there is a real voice with same number in preset or expansion area. So you can make dummy voices bank for MSB 062/063 with YEM and make user voices from them which are editable. But this is not possible for arbitrary bank numbers.

And voices files can only be edited, if they origin from the same keyboard. So I cannot edit user voices from S770 or S970 on the Genos.

ULi

Yamaha Genos
Yamaha MODX7
Yamaha P-125 Digital Piano
Nord Electro 5D
 

Offline vlbrgt

Re: How to integrate external sound modules
« Reply #29 on: May 14, 2018, 06:51:40 PM »
Quote
You cannot edit user voice set files, unless there is a real voice with same number in preset or expansion area
After som tests I come to the same conclusion as you Uli.

Quote
I have seen, that MixMaster changes the structure of the midi file.
Looking with an Hex editor into the code of the voices shows that they have a PPQN of 96.
Also looking more specific into the midi event codes, these little midi files (voice files) do not use Running Status.
This also counts for the OTS chunk in a style file.

Loading a voice file into MixMaster will set PPQN to 1920 and when saving the file the Running Status is activated.

What is running status :
For example you have a lot of controller events in a midi, voice or style file for the same channel :
 
B0 00 00 00 B0 20 74 00  C0 15 00 B0 48 5E 00 B0 63 01 00 B0 62 66 00 B0 06 54 00 B0 26 00 00 ...

When running status is activated then the status byte will not be repeated :

B0 00 00 00 20 74 00  C0 15 00 B0 48 5E 00 63 01 00 62 66 00 06 54 00 26 00 00 ...

So you gain some bytes that do not need to be send to the midi receiver.

I have tried a few voice files and also a style file that where changed in MixMaster, and there was no problem loading the files into Genos and playing the style...
I don't know why running status is not used in voice files and OTS chunk.
Perhaps Yamaha has a good reason to do so ...
 
Regards
Etienne

« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 07:04:12 PM by vlbrgt »
 

Offline voodoo

Re: How to integrate external sound modules
« Reply #30 on: May 14, 2018, 07:06:46 PM »
I have tried a few voice files and also a style file that where changed in MixMaster, and there was no problem loading the files into Genos and playing the style...

Hi,

I have come to the same conclusion. Even with running status the voice files still work after editing in MixMaster.

Thank you for the correction..

Uli
Yamaha Genos
Yamaha MODX7
Yamaha P-125 Digital Piano
Nord Electro 5D
 

Offline Joe H

Re: How to integrate external sound modules
« Reply #31 on: May 14, 2018, 10:52:44 PM »
Joe,

I investigated  in editing dummy voices in Genos. My result: You cannot edit user voice set files, unless there is a real voice with same number in preset or expansion area. So you can make dummy voices bank for MSB 062/063 with YEM and make user voices from them which are editable. But this is not possible for arbitrary bank numbers.

And voices files can only be edited, if they origin from the same keyboard. So I cannot edit user voices from S770 or S970 on the Genos.

ULi

This is true, but when I edit a Motif dummy in the Voice Set file, it does not change the Motif Voice when I load the Motif User Voice.  I think the reason for this is the Voice Set file "plays" before the Motif can load the Voice (it takes longer to load a Motif Voice because of the DSPs applied) Whether this is true with the Yammex sound module is yet to be determined.  On the arranger, the Voice is loaded "dry" and then the Voice Set file modifies the Voice.  This is true for all Preset Voices as well as pack Voices.

Furthermore, When I make real-time changes while playing a Motif Voice, the real-time changes are heard with the Motif Voice. Voice Set will transmit most of the parameters (in particular, the Sound Controllers)

Joe H
« Last Edit: May 15, 2018, 03:11:45 AM by Joe H »
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads in registrations. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline Marty

Re: How to integrate external sound modules
« Reply #32 on: May 31, 2018, 06:06:44 PM »
You may be interested.

In attachment is source code for a voice file (patch change) generator written in Visual C#.   Its a simple 'command line' utility which takes a comma delimited '.csv' file. The csv file contains voice name, Bank select MSB, LSB  and Program change.  The generated voice files are just 52 bytes long.  The voice files have been tested on my PSR s770 connected to my ipad running the 'Sunrizer' synth app. 


Offline Joe H

Re: How to integrate external sound modules
« Reply #33 on: October 28, 2018, 04:21:16 AM »
Joe,

I investigated  in editing dummy voices in Genos. My result: You cannot edit user voice set files, unless there is a real voice with same number in preset or expansion area. So you can make dummy voices bank for MSB 062/063 with YEM and make user voices from them which are editable. But this is not possible for arbitrary bank numbers.

And voices files can only be edited, if they origin from the same keyboard. So I cannot edit user voices from S770 or S970 on the Genos.

ULi

UPDATE:

Uli,

I tried this again just now... when I make changes to the "dummy" Voice I created in YEM for the Motif I can edit the Voice Set File and save it as a User Voice.  When I load the (Motif) User Voice, those changes I saved in Voice Set are applied to the Motif Voice.

 8)

PS: I think you were talking about editing S970 Voices in YEM... is that correct?  Or did you mean that the S970 Voice Set files do not work on Genos?

Joe H
« Last Edit: October 28, 2018, 05:05:57 AM by Joe H »
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads in registrations. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline Yinon

Re: How to integrate external sound modules
« Reply #34 on: November 21, 2019, 04:49:41 PM »

Hi Everyone,

I know this thread was addressed a long time ago ...
But - it is very helpful for me (!)

I do have 2 questions -
1. Which free HEX editor is recommended?
2. How can I prevent the voice I select for PC only to play in Genos?
For example -

I want to use RH1 and RH2 to play from Genos and RH3 to be used only for PC. (sent to my Nord keyboard).
I tried setting RH3 volume to zero but this seems to also drop the volume from the Nord.

 Thanks
 

Offline Joe H

Re: How to integrate external sound modules
« Reply #35 on: November 21, 2019, 08:04:52 PM »
Since this thread was started, I found the the midi solutions event processor will work to re-map any YEM Voice message to another to call up a Voice on an external keyboard or sound module.  It's the best solution I've found.

http://www.midisolutions.com/prodevp.htm

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads in registrations. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline Yinon

Re: How to integrate external sound modules
« Reply #36 on: November 23, 2019, 05:54:59 AM »

Thanks Joe.

Not sure how this would have helped my situation.
The challenge: Use Genos as a control keyboard so when I switch registration I will send the relevant PC to another keyboard/module. It gets a little more complex since I'm using all 4 parts (Lower, RH1, RH2, RH3) for most of the registration therefor I can't use them consistently to send a PC.

Here is how I did it:
1. I created a list of dummy sounds using the banks provided on this thread. (Of course I had to change the MSB/LSB/PC with a hex editor)
2. Since I couldn't use any of the parts to send the PC. (They are all assigned with sounds which I was not willing to "sacrifice"). I created a list of dummy songs. These a MIDI songs with nothing recorded on them but a simple PC event set to the relevant sound. In this case I inserted a PC to song channel 1.
3. In the MIDI system config, under the transmit menue, I found the "song ch1" channel and enabled to send only PC (Disabled) any additional events - just in case. I saved this config (I disabled all other MIDI channels for transmit - just in case - by setting it to "off")
4. For each registration, I loaded the relevant dummy song which "calls" the relevant external sound. This song was saved with the registration.

Voila!  ;)

Now when I switched registration, the dummy song (with MIDI channel set to the relevant sound) is sent externally to the keyboard. (No need to to play the dummy song ...

So every time I switch registration the relevant sound is called on the external keyboard. (Yey!)
I know there is the option to have it done with songbook+ and MIDI from an IPAD or use mainstage 3 with a laptop but in this case , I'm trying to minimize the peripherals and focus on the Genos screen.

A little tricky but works like a charm! 8)

If someone is interested to understand more, please let me know.

Thanks for the folks who help on this forum.
This saved me hours of research and testing!

Thanks!

 

Offline overover

Re: How to integrate external sound modules
« Reply #37 on: November 23, 2019, 10:17:39 AM »
...
Here is how I did it:
1. I created a list of dummy sounds using the banks provided on this thread. (Of course I had to change the MSB/LSB/PC with a hex editor)
...

Hi Yinon,

there is NO need to use a HEX EDITOR here to change Bank Select MSB (= CC #0), Bank Select LSB (= CC #32) and PC (Program Change) in a (Dummy) MIDI file. You can use, for example, the free PC (Windows) program "MixMaster" (go to "List View" there), or any other MIDI Sequencer program / DAW.

https://psrtutorial.com/MB/mixMaster.html

You can also edit those MIDI files directly on the Genos (MIDI Multi Recording - Step Edit). If you not see the MSB/LSB/PC here, simply touch "Event Filter" button and make the "right" settings there.


Best regards,
Chris
« Last Edit: November 23, 2019, 10:19:27 AM by overover »
 

Offline BenoitM

Re: How to integrate external sound modules
« Reply #38 on: November 23, 2019, 01:36:12 PM »
Hi Everyone,

It's a very interesting thread !

I did not make extensive tests, but I have the Korg Wavestation software installed on my PC. I connected the Genos to my PC via an USB cable, set the Midi config in Wavestation, plugged a Jack cable into the 'HeadPhone' slot of my PC and the other end to the 'Mic In' port of my Genos (I could also have plugged it into the 'Aux In' port of the Genos, but since the 'Mic' port can have a DSP assigned to it, I prefer to use the Mic…). So far, so good : everything is working fine, I can select a patch on Wavestation and hear it through the Genos speaker/headphone. I only have to disable the local Left/Voice 1+2+3 voices on my Genos...

Of course, until now, if I wanted to change the selected patch on the Wavestation, I had to go to my PC and manually select the patch … not really optimal :)

So, after reading this thread and if I understand correctly, the 'Dummy Voice' trick would allows my to call the Wavestation patch directly from a Genos Registration ??? Or do I need to create a .MID file to select the WaveStation patch and link this MID file to a Genos Registration ?

In fact, the real 'missing part' for me is : how do I discover the correct LSB/MSB/Patch # of a specific Wavestation patch ? (while wrinting this question, I'm thinking : I could install a DAW, start recording a dummy song, then change the patch on the Wavestation side just to see the patch change midi message…  ???)

Thanks for your thoughts.

Benoit
« Last Edit: November 23, 2019, 02:01:24 PM by BenoitM »
 

Offline Yinon

Re: How to integrate external sound modules
« Reply #39 on: November 23, 2019, 02:53:51 PM »
Hello Benoit.

The best way to get the MSB/LSB/PC combination is look at the user guide (or reference guide in some cases).

The other way is in trial and error but since you have 128*128*128 (= about 2.1M) combinations, looking for the user guide is a time saver :-)

 

Offline Joe H

Re: How to integrate external sound modules
« Reply #40 on: November 23, 2019, 04:04:44 PM »
Yinon,

The midi solutions event processor can re-map multiple MIDI messages (any type of message to another message)

Download the software and see for yourself.  There are two versions of the Event processor.  One supports up to 10 messages at a time and the other support up to 32 messages at a time. The format for those scripts is a RTF (Rich Text File) that can be opened and edited in MS Word any program that supports RTF.

http://www.midisolutions.com/progtool.htm

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads in registrations. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline Yinon

Re: How to integrate external sound modules
« Reply #41 on: November 25, 2019, 06:30:02 PM »

Thanks Chris.

Missed your response the other day but reading back I found it.
Thanks!

Now that I know that I can create and edit a specific song with the MSB/LSB/PC values, it make a lot of sense.
In fact, I was able to take a dummy song and add the MSB/LSB to it.

Unfortunately - it does not work ...

The Nord Grand is requesting to user the MSB/LSB/PC for the following -
MSB - zero
LSB - 0-15
PC- 0-24

I was adding MSB then LSB then the PC.
(Seems like my MSB/LSB combo is getting ignored although I made sure the Nord is set to receive MIDI controls).

It receives only the PC ...

Another strage thing is that I can take values above 24 for the PC and it does react to it.

Is there a specific timing to the MSB/LSB/PC even in the song?
Currently I tried setting CC#0  with value of 0 at 000:01:000, CC#32 with value of 8 at: 000:01:000, and PC with values of 10  at 000:01:000.

It does not work ...

I also tried setting up in ppq order - MSB  @ 000:01:000, LSB @ 000:01:001 and PC @ 000:01:002 ....
Still no success.

It's like the MSB/LSB is being ignored ...

Thoughts?


 

Offline ugawoga

Re: How to integrate external sound modules
« Reply #42 on: November 26, 2019, 12:43:02 AM »
Hi
Too much techy stuff here!!! ;D

I would just stick an external sound module on midi  in and out or thru or whatever.

Record what you want in Cubase.
In Live situation use styles and set the external module to the right midi channel.
I will get slated for this!! ;D :P

All the best
John
 

Offline Yinon

Re: How to integrate external sound modules
« Reply #43 on: November 26, 2019, 04:09:55 AM »

Hi John,

You are missing the point.
This is not about recording ...

It's about changing setups with one button for live show.
Every Genos registration is supposed to set the sounds coming from Genos + sounds coming from and external module.

Yes - you can do it with external software but why if you have such an advanced Keyboard... (Genos)

Chris, Uli, John?

Any idea's ?

Thanks
 

Offline ugawoga

Re: How to integrate external sound modules
« Reply #44 on: November 26, 2019, 09:03:18 AM »
Hi

I thought system exclusive set ups could be implemented
If i remember you could send a system excluvive setup to Cubase or most daw's and at of a press of a buttion find the system exclusive message and send it to instrument and all is set up,but  for live you may need a laptop with a program like Cubase to store the exclusive setups.
I am not an expert in these matters , but system exclusive banks should be possible with a daw.
I did something like this ages ago , but cannot remember exactly everything  I do not play live ,so not necessary fior me as registrations will do


All the best
« Last Edit: November 26, 2019, 01:28:37 PM by ugawoga »
 

Offline overover

Re: How to integrate external sound modules
« Reply #45 on: November 26, 2019, 11:11:01 AM »
Hi Yinon,

if not done so, please make sure that in MIDI display - - - > Transmit both checkmarks "CC" and "PC" are set for the Song Part (Channel) you are using to transmit the MIDI data of your Dummy MIDI files:



Normally all three Messages (CC 0, CC 32, PC) can be placed on the very first tick of the Dummy file. IF you use a delay between the messages, I recommend to use a minimum of 40 ticks:

001 : 1 : 0000    CC 0
001 : 1 : 0040    CC 32
001 : 1 : 0080    PC

Note: Yamaha Program numbers are counted "1 - 128", while MIDI Program Change numbers are "0 - 127".

Best regards,
Chris
 

Offline Yinon

Re: How to integrate external sound modules
« Reply #46 on: November 27, 2019, 02:42:03 PM »

Thanks Chris!

Found it with your help.
I was using song channel 1 for sending the Midi Messages and the CC was disabled (I did it myself ...).

So now I'm able to send MSB, LSB and PC all on ppq 0000.

Yey!

I do have a strange thing happening, now with the CC enable for the channel, when I send the message, the sound is decreasing in volume.

I tried sending CC#7 = 127 but this doesn't help.
Could sysex message modify volume?

Thanks for all your help so far!
 

Offline overover

Re: How to integrate external sound modules
« Reply #47 on: November 27, 2019, 03:09:22 PM »
Hi Yinon,

thank you for your kind feedback!

... I do have a strange thing happening, now with the CC enable for the channel, when I send the message, the sound is decreasing in volume.

I tried sending CC#7 = 127 but this doesn't help.
Could sysex message modify volume? ...

I recommend to load such a Dummy MIDI file in "MixMaster". Click on "List View" button, and you will see ALL MIDI data. If there are additional data in the file (not only CC #0, CC #32 and PC), you can delete the other data easily here and save the file again.

https://psrtutorial.com/MB/mixMaster.html


Best regards,
Chris

« Last Edit: November 27, 2019, 03:10:42 PM by overover »
 

Offline Yinon

Re: How to integrate external sound modules
« Reply #48 on: November 27, 2019, 08:20:00 PM »
Thanks Chris,

Will load MixMaster but I found it without ...
There is a song volume (A and B) which by default is set to 100.
Boost it to 127, save the registration again and there you go!

All -
If you even need to to get Genos used as master keyboard and your registrations to control an external sound source through MIDI, this is your thread :-)

This is awesome!
 8)

 

Offline StuartR

Re: How to integrate external sound modules
« Reply #49 on: February 22, 2020, 06:35:33 PM »
Hi Joe,

wow, I did not expect this. This is a little disappointing. Have you tried to locate the cause for the problem? Do user voices never send out midi? Or does the OS know, which bank numbers are legal and which are not? Can there be another cause for the problem? Like corrupting the voice files by editing them?

Have you tested this:

* Save any S970 voice as user voice.
* Monitor the midi out if it sends the MSB/LSB/PC
* Edit the voice file to some other voice number
* Check, which combinations work and which do not

I have seen, that the Genoss does not send all the other midi information from the voice file. It only sends the MSB/LSB/PC. So there seems to a filter, too. I will experiment a little more on this topic.

Uli

I've used your voice selection files on my Genos  (thank you very much for the great effort) and while they do transmit PC midi data to my iPad sound source app, I'm noticing that they don't work consistently. Sometimes I have to manually reselect the voice file to get it to send the PC. Don't yet know if it's a Genos issue or the iPad app isn't consistently listening!  Anyone else seen this behavior?