Author Topic: Possible bug when controlling Genos from DAW over USB midi  (Read 1457 times)

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Offline svpworld

Possible bug when controlling Genos from DAW over USB midi
« on: April 24, 2018, 07:10:40 PM »
Hi Genos owners

On several occasions now I've experienced a problem when using Genos in conjunction with my DAW (logic pro X) over midi via USB.
I've created 16 tracks in my DAW assigned to port "Digital Workstation Port 1" and midi channels 1-16 respectively. At the beginning of each midi track I've inserted a very short sequence of midi events, namely control messages for setting up Reverb, release time, timbre, volume, pan, expression, chorus send level, decay time, brightness, attack time, and finally bank MSB/LSB/Program to assign a voice. Infact this tip I picked up on this forum so many thanks to the user that created the midi file.

Now this has been working fine, but every so often the first track (midi ch1) will stop playing anything on Genos. Basically I can't seem to get anything playing over midi via Port 1 Ch1. In addition when I open this template into my DAW, before I even play anything sometimes Genos will start playing the drums of the selected style by itself!  This is without starting my DAW in playback or record, as though a rogue start event is getting sent to Genos.    The only way I can restore midi ch1 on port 1 to respond to any midi notes is to fully reset Genos. Then it's fine until at some point if I forget to turn local on 'off' on the Genos and open up my DAW, something will cause it to reoccur. 

I've no idea what's causing this problem, it only appears to affect midi ch1 over USB to Genos. I've checked my DAW settings and nothing is being sent for timecode or clock to Genos.  Genos itself is playing fine locally, but for some reason midi channel 1 just goes completely quiet and shows no activity on the receive indicators in the midi settings of Genos.

Maybe a bug? 

Simon
 
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Offline panos

Re: Possible bug when controlling Genos from DAW over USB midi
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2018, 07:35:26 PM »
Hi Simon,

"and finally bank MSB/LSB/Program to assign a voice"

I am not an expert  but
if the midi channel 1 is the right hand voice 1 and if you did something to that voice then maybe that causes the problem while the other channels have no problem.

In any way is not a bug because Yamaha supports only Cubase as far as I know.
How the other daw's working with our keyboards unfortunately is our concern.  :(

Offline jwyvern

Re: Possible bug when controlling Genos from DAW over USB midi
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2018, 10:14:35 PM »
"Genos itself is playing fine locally, but for some reason midi channel 1 just goes completely quiet and shows no activity on the receive indicators in the midi settings of Genos."

Doesn't the lack of activity on the indicators suggest the DAW may have stopped transmitting on ch1 for some reason rather than  a failure or bug of Genos?

John
 

Offline SeaGtGruff

Re: Possible bug when controlling Genos from DAW over USB midi
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2018, 10:22:38 PM »
I think it's probably safest to put the Bank Select MSB/LSB and Program Change before everything else, just in case that causes the keyboard to load default settiings associated with that voice. If it's working okay with those messages being last then I guess it's not a problem, but on the PSR-E models it seems like choosing a voice causes the keyboard to load the default settings from that voice's presets, so as a general rule of thumb it might be best to develop a habit of choosing the voice first and then setting the various voice-related and effects-related parameters.

As for the possibility of the Right 1 voice affecting things, you should be able to go into the MIDI Send settings and make sure the Right 1 voice isn't transmitting anything on channel 1.

Another possibility is that something in the DAW is sending unwanted messages that are causing the problem. Make sure that any Channel Volume messages for channel 1 aren't setting the volume to 0. Also, make sure there are no extra MIDI tracks in the DAW which might be sending unwanted messages in addition to the tracks you've got set up.

Finally, when I've used the "Init Send" function on my PSR-E models to output their settings to a MIDI monitor I've noticed that the first thing Yamaha does-- even before setting the Bank Select MSB/LSB and Program Change for each channel-- is to output the SysEx messages which turn on the GM1 and XG systems. I believe these messages make the keyboard reset itself as the first step in enabling the GM1 and XG systems. If it seems like the only thing that fixes the problem is resetting the keyboard, you might want to add these SysEx messages at the very beginning of channel 1. Note that you should wait several ticks after each of these messages to give the keyboard time to perform them, and this applies to all the channels, not just to channel 1-- that is, do the SysEx messages on channel 1 before anything else, then wait several ticks before sending anything on any of the 16 channels. If your model is GM2 compatible then you might want to use the message to enable GM2 rather than GM1-- but it might also be that you don't really need either one of those, just the message to enable XG. What I would do is use the keyboard's Song Creator to create a MIDI song file, then look at which messages the keyboard put at the beginning and how many ticks it waited after each one. Then you can put those same messages at the beginning of channel 1's data.

Regarding John's point, make sure you aren't toggling channel 1's track off by accident, or muting it, etc.
Michael Rideout
YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443, PSR-EW400
 
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Offline ugawoga

Re: Possible bug when controlling Genos from DAW over USB midi
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2018, 10:54:50 PM »
Hi
 I still think it is best to play a song Into the Genos which keeps it real human and do minor edits in a daw such as cubase. Too much cut and paste otherwise.
Otherwise use VST's
I think vst's are best to build a track by track situation In a daw.
Only my opinion. :)

All the best
John :)

Offline svpworld

Re: Possible bug when controlling Genos from DAW over USB midi
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2018, 08:19:42 PM »
Hi John
It would appear Genos isn't responding to midi channel 1 on it's Digital Workstation Port 1. Midi channel 1 of course works fine with any of my other MIDI gear (with the appropriate port selected).  I've even created a fresh project in Logic and just created a new track outputting to the Genos on channel 1 - with no midi voice/control change data.  I've also tried playing another controller keyboard over midi into logic so its just outputting to Genos on ch.1.  Basically Genos refuses to receive anything on ch.1, yet works fine with other channels.  After a full reset it works fine, so I can only assume that sending too much data or maybe a rogue set of data is causing something to lock up or crash in Genos?   I will keep trying other things including over the 5 pin midi cables and maybe try another DAW as well.

Regards
Simon



"Genos itself is playing fine locally, but for some reason midi channel 1 just goes completely quiet and shows no activity on the receive indicators in the midi settings of Genos."

Doesn't the lack of activity on the indicators suggest the DAW may have stopped transmitting on ch1 for some reason rather than  a failure or bug of Genos?

John
 

Offline svpworld

Re: Possible bug when controlling Genos from DAW over USB midi
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2018, 08:23:16 PM »
Some good tips here, I'll give all this a try next time the problem crops up or maybe even beforehand. I'll keep you updated.

Many thanks
Simon



I think it's probably safest to put the Bank Select MSB/LSB and Program Change before everything else, just in case that causes the keyboard to load default settiings associated with that voice. If it's working okay with those messages being last then I guess it's not a problem, but on the PSR-E models it seems like choosing a voice causes the keyboard to load the default settings from that voice's presets, so as a general rule of thumb it might be best to develop a habit of choosing the voice first and then setting the various voice-related and effects-related parameters.

As for the possibility of the Right 1 voice affecting things, you should be able to go into the MIDI Send settings and make sure the Right 1 voice isn't transmitting anything on channel 1.

Another possibility is that something in the DAW is sending unwanted messages that are causing the problem. Make sure that any Channel Volume messages for channel 1 aren't setting the volume to 0. Also, make sure there are no extra MIDI tracks in the DAW which might be sending unwanted messages in addition to the tracks you've got set up.

Finally, when I've used the "Init Send" function on my PSR-E models to output their settings to a MIDI monitor I've noticed that the first thing Yamaha does-- even before setting the Bank Select MSB/LSB and Program Change for each channel-- is to output the SysEx messages which turn on the GM1 and XG systems. I believe these messages make the keyboard reset itself as the first step in enabling the GM1 and XG systems. If it seems like the only thing that fixes the problem is resetting the keyboard, you might want to add these SysEx messages at the very beginning of channel 1. Note that you should wait several ticks after each of these messages to give the keyboard time to perform them, and this applies to all the channels, not just to channel 1-- that is, do the SysEx messages on channel 1 before anything else, then wait several ticks before sending anything on any of the 16 channels. If your model is GM2 compatible then you might want to use the message to enable GM2 rather than GM1-- but it might also be that you don't really need either one of those, just the message to enable XG. What I would do is use the keyboard's Song Creator to create a MIDI song file, then look at which messages the keyboard put at the beginning and how many ticks it waited after each one. Then you can put those same messages at the beginning of channel 1's data.

Regarding John's point, make sure you aren't toggling channel 1's track off by accident, or muting it, etc.
 

Offline ugawoga

Re: Possible bug when controlling Genos from DAW over USB midi
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2018, 10:17:27 PM »
Hi Simon
I am at the stage of how do you put all the info for each track down at the beginning
I have tried just changing a sound and the one I recorded on the Genos always takes over on replay.
It Is never plain sailing with midi Genos and daws.
What I have been thinking of doing if I want a great recording Is to only put the style track In and use VSt plugs for the rest.
It seems that all tracks that are recorded are from Midi channel 1 from the Genos and when you want to assign that sound to a different track midi number the fun starts.
It is not easy fathoming out a daw and Genos and I have just really started using It. It is a rock solid daw though  and it Is all down to pilot error with me.

I expect with your daw that the Sys Ex is not fully compatible with the Genos .
I had a load of problems with things like portamento on the Tyros 5 and Sonar Platinum. The numbers never matched quite and Portamento would not sound, just a plain note.
Could be something to do with those Sys Ex numbers ,which is gobbledegook to me.. Sometimes the numbers are advanced or just behind and that cancause chaos.
Most daws are for the Vst merchants really and us home midi minions get left behind. ::)

I would like to know how to change a sound in cubase without having a computer degree :P ::) Something to do with those Significant and Insignificant bytes!!! :P ::)


All the best
John

Ps   I would go for Cubase with the Genos as there is a load you can do and It does not falter. I have just got to learn more as I am a beginner with this daw.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2018, 10:22:02 PM by ugawoga »
 

Offline svpworld

Re: Possible bug when controlling Genos from DAW over USB midi
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2018, 10:32:33 PM »
Thanks John for the comments.  Unfortunately changing from Logic Pro to Cubase isn't really an option for me, I don't even know if Cubase is available on the Mac.  I guess I'm really hoping that someday someone will be able to develop a plugin or even an app (as Yamaha did for the Motif series) that would enable me to set up and configure each track's instrument, effects etc either from my DAW or in conjunction with it. For now I'm trying to set up a 'template' for each song on the Genos, saving a skeleton song and then importing this into Logic Pro to continue. Unfortunately Yamaha have this way of saving events in the Genos sequencer extremely close to each other, which Logic Pro has difficulties sending over Midi. Although its possible to change these manually (the position of each event) it's a very time consuming and tricky process. 
I might just resort to recording audio rather than midi in logic from Genos except for simpler tracks.  I might research into what's actually involved in creating a plugin (audio unit for example) that could send control messages etc or probably more likely look to optimising the midi template I use in logic to send the correct messages in the right order to Genos.   

Simon
 

Offline Joe H

Re: Possible bug when controlling Genos from DAW over USB midi
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2018, 11:48:16 PM »
I know I mention MidiWorks often.  It is written and designed for Yamaha arranger keyboards. the v3.0 also supports Geno's Voices and all it's DSPs and sysex messages, is very stable and reliable.  And the Piano roll (multieditor) is much better than the older versions.

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 
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Re: Possible bug when controlling Genos from DAW over USB midi
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2018, 12:59:49 AM »
I know I mention MidiWorks often.  It is written and designed for Yamaha arranger keyboards. the v3.0 also supports Geno's Voices and all it's DSPs and sysex messages, is very stable and reliable.  And the Piano roll (multieditor) is much better than the older versions.

Joe H

Link Joe?
Check Out My YouTube Channel! https://goo.gl/edbXFS
 

Re: Possible bug when controlling Genos from DAW over USB midi
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2018, 01:21:42 AM »
If you Google Midiworks Yamaha Genos you get this;

http://www.midisoft.pl/en/

If you be a real Seeker after Truth.
It is necessary that at least once in your Life,
You doubt, as far as possible, all things.
_________________________________________________ _______________________
Tyros 5, HS5's, HS8S, Cubase 9.5
 

Offline Joe H

Re: Possible bug when controlling Genos from DAW over USB midi
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2018, 05:54:28 AM »
If you Google Midiworks Yamaha Genos you get this;

http://www.midisoft.pl/en/

There is a demo version of the program you can download.  It is fully functional but the SAVE feature is disabled.  So you can try it out before you buy it.  one of the downsides to midisoft programs is the copy protection which utilizes a USB stick to serve as a "dongle" much like the dongle used for Steinberg programs like Cubase.

When you buy MidiWorks YA or StyleMagic YA from midisoft you will use a program called Ordersoft.  When you place the order for software you must remove all USB drives from your computer except the USB stick you want to use for the dongle.  Ordersoft will read the serial number of the USB drive which will become the "key" for the program to boot up.  Without the USB dongle plugged into your computer, the midisoft program(s) will not run. Another component of the registration is you sir name and email.

I have a single dongle that works for both MidiWorks YA and StyleMagic YA.  You can set that up with Thomas if you want to have a single dongle for more than one program.

Updates are free for life.  Thomas will continue to support all future Yamaha arranger keyboards.  Another downside to midisoft programs is the documentation. Thomas knows only his native language of Polish so other languages he needs user support to give good translations in English, Dutch and German.

Joe H
« Last Edit: April 28, 2018, 05:58:02 AM by Joe H »
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline Dromeus

Re: Possible bug when controlling Genos from DAW over USB midi
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2018, 11:57:27 AM »
Hi Simon

I had a try on the MIDI template file you sent me, these are my observations.

All MIDI events are ok, no unexpected events detected.

As SeaGtGruff already mentioned, you may want to put voice related controllers (expression, attack time, release time, brightness, ...) behind the program change events. This will ensure that your settings are not overwritten by defaults when changing the voice. My DAW (SONAR) does that automatically when re-saving your template. Moreover, inserting GM Reset and XG On events at the very beginning is also sound advice.

I did some track-by-tracking recording and playback was fine on all channels. Note though, that I do not use USB MIDI, but a MOTU MIDI Express Interface and conventional cabling.

I don't think the problems you experience is within the template. If those problems happen only with certain projects you may have recorded accidentially events that cause this behaviour. Have you looked specifically at the events in those projects?


Regards, Michael
 
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Offline Joe H

Re: Possible bug when controlling Genos from DAW over USB midi
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2018, 04:48:00 PM »
Hi Simon...

as SeaGtGruff already mentioned, you may want to put voice related controllers (expression, attack time, release time, brightness, ...) behind the program change events. This will ensure that your settings are not overwritten by defaults when changing the voice. My DAW (SONAR) does that automatically when re-saving your template. Moreover, inserting GM Reset and XG On events at the very beginning is also sound advice...

Try turning off Voice Set on the keyboard.  What is probably happening is your XG controller messages are getting over-written by the Voice Set file when the Voice is loaded.

FUNCTION  > MENU 1 > Voice Set Filter

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 
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Offline markstyles

Re: Possible bug when controlling Genos from DAW over USB midi
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2018, 05:50:39 PM »
I use Logic Pro, and a CC midi event control sequence. I have experienced the same situation, occasionally on both Genos and Tyros.  When  I get to that, nothing short of rebooting Genos is the solution..  I too believe it is a bug.. If I don't want to stop working.. I re-assign Logic MIDI track to another SONG channel on Genos..

In my control sequence, I stagger the events, so they do not happen at the same time..  MIDI hardware can only respond to so much data on the same clock event.  I also stagger the event timing of different MIDI channels in LOGIC..  MIDI hardware can take a fair amount of events on same clock count. I'm not sure how many, never bothered to really test it..  a dozen or more.. But it cannot take 50 or more CC events in the same clock count. hence the staggering.  HOWEVER, I believe this is a different problem the Genos voice going dead. Normally when Genos or Tyros gets a MSB/LSB/PROG, it can't recognize, it puts up the default icon of an octave keyboard. You can manually set the voice on Genos face panel or SOLO that track from LOGIC. Using Solo command next to transport and highlighting the track..  Selecting 'solo' on the main window page for MIDI,  does not function as one would expect.

This 'bug'  is intermittent, and not duplicatable (for me).

MIDI tracks from your DAW are assignable to SONG, (in which case, they will be what Logic, has set that track to, even overriding the midi channels transmitted when from Genos.

You can manually assign it to any location on Genos,  Left, Right 1,2,3, any rhythm instrument.. so you can also get around the bug, if you do not want to stop to re-power Genos.. 

In my control sequence - https://app.box.com/s/d4096mq0gb1uw4epp6dc

Control Sequence MIDI - https://app.box.com/s/z3ek8mcbkh9wekrd4eza

As you can see in mine, MSB/LSB/Prog last.. doesn't seem to affect reverb, volume, pan settings, etc.   for me.

Joe H makes a point about XG settings.  Although I don't believe Logic interrupts that, When I record from Genos, into Logic, I strip out all sysex, so it doesn't send major intricate commands to Genos.

I also use Band-in-a-box sometimes.. I have had situations where it sends out a XG setting, GM setting, etc.  and will put Tyros (what I was using then) into an unstable condition.. I look to see and remove any sysex commands, and  re-start Tyros if I had to get back to proper mode.

Sysex will not 'break' anything in your Genos.. It may put it into a weird situation (where you re-start).. 

Dromeus brings up a good point about 5 pin MIDI vs USB MIDI..  My Genos, and Tyros, occassionally losing it's voice (like you Genos reboot was the only  way to fix) has been with USB MIDI.. But a few days ago.. Genos displayed what may be another bug, or part of the bug you are talking about.  Genos would respond to MIDI notes from Logic, but not MIDI clock.. I triple checked my LOGIC settings. all was correct. In desperation, I switched back over to old 5 pin MIDI (thru my RME fireface 800 interface).. Everything worked fine.. Today, I switched back to USB midi, and all is working..

But I am not really sure where the problem lies to be fair.. Also realize, Apple in their haste to save money uses cheap connectors, and most cables are cheap.. There used to be and I'm sure still are 'military spec' jacks and plugs, These are guaranteed to be exactly the right size.. I have come across various jacks and plugs, that would not sit properly in their jacks, due to companies not willing to spend extra dollar or so for perfectly and correctly sized jacks/plugs.  MY USB midi plugs do not sit tight and snug in Genos USB receptacle. they float, sometimes that has been the issue.  I corrected that by using a strip of paper held to plug when I insert into jack.. Makes the connection tight, and solid.  I suppose it might be possible for momentary 'outs' in connection, resorting to weird results.. 
« Last Edit: April 28, 2018, 06:19:46 PM by markstyles »
 
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Offline Joe H

Re: Possible bug when controlling Genos from DAW over USB midi
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2018, 08:52:19 PM »
Mark wrote:  "HOWEVER, I believe this is a different problem the Genos voice going dead".

It may not be a "bug". The way all Yamaha XG instruments (including arrangers) are setup is that when they receive a Voice message NOT SUPPORTED by the instrument... the instrument goes silent.  Yamaha designed things this way to accommodate the XG plugin cards back in the 1990s.  If we have a lot of Yamaha instruments in a MIDI studio, they will all work together seamlessly because each instrument (or card) will go silent and only respond to the Voice MSB  LSB and PC message supported by each instrument/card.  This allows many Yamaha keyboards and sound modules with XG plugin cards work together without any hassles.

Joe H
« Last Edit: April 28, 2018, 08:56:08 PM by Joe H »
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline svpworld

Re: Possible bug when controlling Genos from DAW over USB midi
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2018, 09:10:28 PM »
Thanks Michael for giving it a try.  I'll reorder the events as mentioned and maybe be a bit more careful in future that I don't accidentally play the genos with styles into logic when its outputting on a single midi channel back to Genos.  Also interesting point made about using USB midi, I never use 5 pin although I've got a couple of midi ports on my audio interface and the iConnect Midi interface so I could give that a go. 

Regards
Simon



Hi Simon

I had a try on the MIDI template file you sent me, these are my observations.

All MIDI events are ok, no unexpected events detected.

As SeaGtGruff already mentioned, you may want to put voice related controllers (expression, attack time, release time, brightness, ...) behind the program change events. This will ensure that your settings are not overwritten by defaults when changing the voice. My DAW (SONAR) does that automatically when re-saving your template. Moreover, inserting GM Reset and XG On events at the very beginning is also sound advice.

I did some track-by-tracking recording and playback was fine on all channels. Note though, that I do not use USB MIDI, but a MOTU MIDI Express Interface and conventional cabling.

I don't think the problems you experience is within the template. If those problems happen only with certain projects you may have recorded accidentially events that cause this behaviour. Have you looked specifically at the events in those projects?
 

Offline svpworld

Re: Possible bug when controlling Genos from DAW over USB midi
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2018, 09:13:01 PM »
Thanks Joe for this tip.  I wasn't even aware you could turn off the voice set file in Genos.  I'll give it a go.

At least from the feedback I'm getting it sounds as though it might not be Genos that's at fault, but just how I've got things set up and limitations of what to and what not to be sending over midi.

Simon


Try turning off Voice Set on the keyboard.  What is probably happening is your XG controller messages are getting over-written by the Voice Set file when the Voice is loaded.

FUNCTION  > MENU 1 > Voice Set Filter

Joe H
 

Offline svpworld

Re: Possible bug when controlling Genos from DAW over USB midi
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2018, 09:21:05 PM »
Good to hear a similar experience from another logic user!   Thanks Mark, you might have a point with respect to overloading the instrument with multiple midi events too close to each other.  In my case even turning off and restarting the instrument didn't fix the problem, I had to do a reset.  Looking at the songs recorded by Genos's internal recorder, it certainly does save a lot of sys ex data.  Possibly if I forget to disable all midi output from Genos other than the keyboard on a single midi channel, it's possible I think that playing a style or song on Genos with my DAW set to a single midi channel track outputting to Genos on just 1 midi channel is creating a feedback loop and as you say overloading the midi buffers.  It's possible Genos just mutes itself on that channel to prevent any further issues, but annoying there doesn't appear to be a quick and easy way of recovering it other than a menu reset.  I believe Logic has some options to filter out some of the sys ex data, and it might be worth creating a customer default midi template on Genos that prevents anything other than the local keyboard outputting on a single midi channel.  I'll try and pay more attention to the sequence of events that trigger the problem if and when it happens again. As you said I also only have the issue occasionally and I'm not sure what exactly triggers it.  Anyway at least it's recoverable!

Thanks again
Simon




I use Logic Pro, and a CC midi event control sequence. I have experienced the same situation, occasionally on both Genos and Tyros.  When  I get to that, nothing short of rebooting Genos is the solution..  I too believe it is a bug.. If I don't want to stop working.. I re-assign Logic MIDI track to another SONG channel on Genos..

In my control sequence, I stagger the events, so they do not happen at the same time..  MIDI hardware can only respond to so much data on the same clock event.  I also stagger the event timing of different MIDI channels in LOGIC..  MIDI hardware can take a fair amount of events on same clock count. I'm not sure how many, never bothered to really test it..  a dozen or more.. But it cannot take 50 or more CC events in the same clock count. hence the staggering.  HOWEVER, I believe this is a different problem the Genos voice going dead. Normally when Genos or Tyros gets a MSB/LSB/PROG, it can't recognize, it puts up the default icon of an octave keyboard. You can manually set the voice on Genos face panel or SOLO that track from LOGIC. Using Solo command next to transport and highlighting the track..  Selecting 'solo' on the main window page for MIDI,  does not function as one would expect.

This 'bug'  is intermittent, and not duplicatable (for me).

MIDI tracks from your DAW are assignable to SONG, (in which case, they will be what Logic, has set that track to, even overriding the midi channels transmitted when from Genos.

You can manually assign it to any location on Genos,  Left, Right 1,2,3, any rhythm instrument.. so you can also get around the bug, if you do not want to stop to re-power Genos.. 

In my control sequence - https://app.box.com/s/d4096mq0gb1uw4epp6dc

Control Sequence MIDI - https://app.box.com/s/z3ek8mcbkh9wekrd4eza

As you can see in mine, MSB/LSB/Prog last.. doesn't seem to affect reverb, volume, pan settings, etc.   for me.

Joe H makes a point about XG settings.  Although I don't believe Logic interrupts that, When I record from Genos, into Logic, I strip out all sysex, so it doesn't send major intricate commands to Genos.

I also use Band-in-a-box sometimes.. I have had situations where it sends out a XG setting, GM setting, etc.  and will put Tyros (what I was using then) into an unstable condition.. I look to see and remove any sysex commands, and  re-start Tyros if I had to get back to proper mode.

Sysex will not 'break' anything in your Genos.. It may put it into a weird situation (where you re-start).. 

Dromeus brings up a good point about 5 pin MIDI vs USB MIDI..  My Genos, and Tyros, occassionally losing it's voice (like you Genos reboot was the only  way to fix) has been with USB MIDI.. But a few days ago.. Genos displayed what may be another bug, or part of the bug you are talking about.  Genos would respond to MIDI notes from Logic, but not MIDI clock.. I triple checked my LOGIC settings. all was correct. In desperation, I switched back over to old 5 pin MIDI (thru my RME fireface 800 interface).. Everything worked fine.. Today, I switched back to USB midi, and all is working..

But I am not really sure where the problem lies to be fair.. Also realize, Apple in their haste to save money uses cheap connectors, and most cables are cheap.. There used to be and I'm sure still are 'military spec' jacks and plugs, These are guaranteed to be exactly the right size.. I have come across various jacks and plugs, that would not sit properly in their jacks, due to companies not willing to spend extra dollar or so for perfectly and correctly sized jacks/plugs.  MY USB midi plugs do not sit tight and snug in Genos USB receptacle. they float, sometimes that has been the issue.  I corrected that by using a strip of paper held to plug when I insert into jack.. Makes the connection tight, and solid.  I suppose it might be possible for momentary 'outs' in connection, resorting to weird results..
 

Offline markstyles

Re: Possible bug when controlling Genos from DAW over USB midi
« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2018, 01:41:53 AM »
There is a MIDI 'thru' switch somewhere in Logic, I forget where.  I use a RME fireface 800 in/out box.. It has a fairly extensive monitoring system.. So I listen to it's live input from Genos, while recording..

I shut off software monitoring in Logic..  I've been having a problem with logic, say you want to adjust the volume of a software, midi instrument.  when you select it, it goes into 'auto input'.  This can sometimes make midi problems..

Logic doesn't handle external midi monitoring well,  in my case..  I have had to make separate instruments for each midi channel of Genos..  Often when I go to overdub a part using right hand 1 of Genos.. any midi genos tracks send out, forcing Genos to play them, sometimes taking a Logic Channel Track, and sent it to the current instrument I am recording, hence I end up with numerous channels being re-recorded..

I ended up making a bunch of user MIDI set-ups.  to overdub only one channel..  It seems to work a bit better from the way the Tyros did.. So I haven't really ironed out the problem yet.. 

I've also had the issue, of I can't overdub 1 Genos style part, with out first putting Logic into play for that channel into record.. If I start directly with record, the midi from Genos doesn't get set out..  I have resolved that problem yet.

But YES, I do believe there is a problem with the Genos totally losing on SONG Channel.. It goes totally dead for me.. only a power reset will fix it.. This bug was also present in Tyroses.. Although intermittent and not specifically duplicatable on demand.  Those are the hardest buts to track down and fix..

 
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Offline Joe H

Re: Possible bug when controlling Genos from DAW over USB midi
« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2018, 04:11:10 AM »
Mark,

I've explained above what may the cause of the Genos channel going dead.  To prove my theory try selecting a Preset Voice for that channel and see if it doesn't come alive again.  Any extraneous Voice messages (not supported by the instrument) coming from your DAW can cause an XG instrument to go silent.

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline markstyles

Re: Possible bug when controlling Genos from DAW over USB midi
« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2018, 07:12:31 PM »
Hi Joe:

For me the Song channel stays completely dead, manually selecting a new voice, on Genos, or sending MSB/LSB/PROG from Logic..  Only thing that works for me, is to re-power Genos.. Mid receive, shows Song Chanel 1 getting midi, but no sound.  This happened on Tyros 5 for me also (can't remember if T4 did it).. It is extremely intermittent, I can't reproduce it..  It might happen once every 80 hours of Genos being on..  Not sure if Logic is sending something weird..  my computer, or Genos.. 

But it has happened at least 15 times to me in the last 12 months..  So something is going on.
 

Offline Joe H

Re: Possible bug when controlling Genos from DAW over USB midi
« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2018, 10:42:19 PM »
Mark,

MIDI is definitely a challenge. Having had a MIDI studio for at least 25 years with many sound modules, hardware and software sequencers plus MIDI hardware controller I can say your situation would be difficult to trouble shoot.  If Logic is sending out extraneous Bank Select and PC messages that would definitely do it.

But how could you test the output of Logic without having another computer connected running a MIDI Monitor to record what is being output by Logic?

 ???

Joe H
« Last Edit: May 02, 2018, 10:43:42 PM by Joe H »
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline Kokoriz

Re: Possible bug when controlling Genos from DAW over USB midi
« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2018, 01:23:58 AM »
I know I mention MidiWorks often.  It is written and designed for Yamaha arranger keyboards. the v3.0 also supports Geno's Voices and all it's DSPs and sysex messages, is very stable and reliable.  And the Piano roll (multieditor) is much better than the older versions.

Joe H

Hi Joe, do you use StyleMagic and if so is it easy to use? How are styles created? From preset patterns or Yamaha Styles from the keyboards? Was trying to read the descriptions but I was just too confused! Thank you!
 

Offline SeaGtGruff

Re: Possible bug when controlling Genos from DAW over USB midi
« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2018, 01:29:19 AM »
Mark, it sounds like you might want to look into those "GM System On," "GM2 System On," or "XG System On" SysEx messages that I referred to before, because they might reset the channels without you having to actually power the keyboard off and on.
Michael Rideout
YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443, PSR-EW400
 

Offline markstyles

Re: Possible bug when controlling Genos from DAW over USB midi
« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2018, 03:43:29 AM »
I have no trouble sending a cc event control list, and calling up the right patch. It work everytime.  I can occasionally run  midi monitor if I want to see what is going on. 

There is some kind of bottleneck, where Genos (and previously Tyros) would go completely silent'  Although I could see midi coming in on Genos MIDI RECEIVE Page, no sound came out.. Nothing short of re-booting Genos would get the sound back.. Since I could easily re-channel Logic midi track to a working Genos voice, I am going to assume something goes awry in Genos.. and when I reposer, Genos is OK.

 I strip out all sysex, in fact shut Genos off from sending or receiving sysex on MIDI tracks.  So I don't think it is Genos reseting itself to a GM or other mode, otherwise, all channels would respond similar.. I will look into seeing if I can assign a  GM voice from Genos, next t time it happens, Hadn't thought of that.

At this point in my life, there are a lot bigger issues to worry about, Genos losing a voice once in a while.. Most of the time, I just assign Logic to a new Genos SONG track..  I have never gone past one voice failing..   

Like I said it is extremely intermittent, so I don't get worked up over it.
 

Offline Joe H

Re: Possible bug when controlling Genos from DAW over USB midi
« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2018, 04:07:30 AM »
Mark, it sounds like you might want to look into those "GM System On," "GM2 System On," or "XG System On" SysEx messages that I referred to before, because they might reset the channels without you having to actually power the keyboard off and on.

If that were the case then Grand Piano would default on all channels.

It could be a bug... if Mark says he can monitor Logic's output to know if extraneous messages are being sent (including sysex)  He should report this to Yamaha and see if they have had other reports on this issue.

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline SeaGtGruff

Re: Possible bug when controlling Genos from DAW over USB midi
« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2018, 05:00:52 AM »
No, apparently you both misunderstood.

Mark says that when the problem occurs, the only way he can get things working correctly again is to reset the keyboard.

I pointed out that the keyboard uses a SysEx initialization message at the beginning of a track when you use its onboard Song Creator-- or for that matter, Style Creator. On my PSR-E models I think it's a "GM System On" message (if I remember correctly), but on other models it might be something else-- an "XG System On" or possibly even a "GM2 System On." It might even be GM followed by XG. I recommended using the onboard Song Creator to record a song, then look at the message(s) at the very beginning of the track to see what the particular model was using to initialize itself before setting everything else up.

If Mark is sending messages from a DAW to his keyboard to select voices, but every once in a while things are getting messed up and channel 1 goes silent-- which I agree with Joe, it could be a Bank and Program combination that isn't available on the keyboard which is causing XG to go silent on that channel-- then rather than turning the keyboard off and resetting it manually it might be better if Mark were to send the same SysEx initialization message(s) that the keyboard itself uses.

I am not suggesting that the DAW is sending the message(s) and that is what's causing the problem to occur at times.

I am suggesting that Mark is in fact not sending the message(s) from the DAW and that perhaps the fact that the keyboard isn't getting the initialization message(s) that it normally uses might be preventing it from clearing some problematic setting. So perhaps adding the initialization message(s) at the front of the other messages might help to prevent the problem from occurring.
Michael Rideout
YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443, PSR-EW400
 

Offline Joe H

Re: Possible bug when controlling Genos from DAW over USB midi
« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2018, 04:11:09 PM »
... If Mark is sending messages from a DAW to his keyboard to select voices, but every once in a while things are getting messed up and channel 1 goes silent-- which I agree with Joe, it could be a Bank and Program combination that isn't available on the keyboard which is causing XG to go silent on that channel-- then rather than turning the keyboard off and resetting it manually it might be better if Mark were to send the same SysEx initialization message(s) that the keyboard itself uses...

As I said it MAY be a bug but also indicated that I know from experience that ANY extraneous MIDI message including sysex could lock-up an instrument and the only option is to turn power off and reboot.  That's why I was suggesting a MIDI monitor to confirm that the Genos is receiving some MIDI message that would cause the problem.

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline markstyles

Re: Possible bug when controlling Genos from DAW over USB midi
« Reply #30 on: May 03, 2018, 04:11:58 PM »
Look guys.. I am well-versed in Midi. I have been working with synthesizers since the late 60's.   I worked for Voyetra Technologies at the time the MIDI spec was devised. Our company was one of the few, included to help design the MIDI SPEC.  I've used computers well before MIDI spec, S-triggers, V-triggers, Gates 1/volt per octave for pitch data to VCO's .  I've built adaptors to change ARP Trigger/Gates to MOOG S-Triggers. 

Like I said I strip out Genos from Sending or receiving sysex. So Logic is sending no sysex. Genos cannot set itself to GM, XG via CC controls only sysex.  I know that when Genos turns on, it 'sets itself' to the  proper mode.. Logic CAN send out sysex but it'simplementation of sysex is poor.. You have to  manually enter data in decimal format, it is then converted to hex.. it is extremely slow, poorly documented.. Like Logic's extensive Environment section, few Logic Users ever use that section of program..  Apple's policy now is to NOT discuss it's environment, or sysex, because it is too complicated for the  intelligence of it's users, and can cause way too many problems, if used by someone, not knowing what they are doing.. 

There are no XG, GM, settings. etc in LOGIC to send. THERE ARE HOWEVER such commands available to send from Band-In-A-Box..
I Could and WILL boot up Band-In-A-Box and see if I can get Genos, back to stable condition. At this point, it's just FAR easier to reboot Genos.

I spent a significant portion of my life being a PAID Beta tester, for a lot of the original hardware, software DAW, and instrument companies.  I hate the fact, that a lot of companies, have just decided to release products, and let the consumer, be the Beta testers.  However because of the vast number of companies involved, 3rd party companies. It is almost impossible to a manufacturer, to test all the possibilities of connections, and users choice of working devices, and techniques.

When I reach a situation, where something is unworkable for me.  I DO write or call..  Some companies, are very hesitant to acknowledge there could be a problem with their hardware, software..  My last confrontation was with Apple over their 2015 Mac Pro, having micro drop-outs on their Thunderbolt Lanes..  It took many phone calls, with OWC Raid systems, Softraid, and local 3rd party Mac repair companies, to compile a list of  dozens of other users with the same exact problem.. Only under threat of a class action lawsuit, did Apple step to the plate.  They bought and replaced my whole system, fully loaded Mac Pro, 24 TB RAID System. They eventually found the problem, and silently released a patch, without acknowledgement.  I AM NOT willing to have to spend vast amounts of time, calling attention too, and helping fix some companies bugs,  without being  re-numerated for it.

I have approached Yamaha with specific esoteric problems, some beyond the knowledge scope, of 1st tier techs.  They however are more accommodating in acknowledging a possibility of a situation.. I haven't bothered to report this to them, because it is not 'reproducible on command'..  I am much more interested in finishing my compositions, than spend hours on the phone, often with people I know are reading a script from a notebook..  I am too old, for such crap.  I find a work-around to continue my work. 

If finishing a song comes to a complete STOP because of a problem (which I never have with Tyros's or Genos).. I might stop to get it rectified. Most often I find a work-around to continue finishing my piece..  So far, the dropping out of one MIDI SONG channel on Genos, is not a 'breaker' for me.  I just change Logic's MIDI output track to another Song Channel on Genos..  or re-power Genos. So far, Genos has never lost two SONG Channels..  (one reason, I suspect it is a very esoteric problem..  and a problem in Genos.

Since it is so 'irregular' (happening perhaps once in every hundred hours of Genos being on)..  It is thus far impossible for me to duplicate.  Yamaha or any other company CANNOT fix a problem they cannot duplicate. 

Since Genos doesn't have a 'crash log' (or it is unavailable to us the general public),  and this problem will not register on Mac side (Logic has no way to know an external midi device is not responding correctly, to a particular MIDI channel.  there is not really any useful data I can give either Yamaha or Logic. Logic does use 'active sensing' to know it is in constant communication with it's MIDI input, but not a particular midi output.

 Logic programmers, like Apple themselves, will never publicly admit the problem might be with them..

OUR BEST SOLUTION for right now, would be for Cubase, Nuendo, other DAW users, to  tell us, if they come across the same situation. That would pinpoint the problem to Logic Pro, rather than Genos.

So anyone with other DAWS, experiencing this GENOS SONG DROP out, please come forward, this would be one step forward, in determining where the problem is coming from. Logic does have some bugs, which have not been resolved due to the large number of variable factors in it..

With all the software, hardware, 3rd party plug-ins, available now.. There will always be 'bugs' popping up.. because the huge number of variables and techniques used by individuals involved..
« Last Edit: May 03, 2018, 04:17:48 PM by markstyles »
 
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Offline svpworld

Re: Possible bug when controlling Genos from DAW over USB midi
« Reply #31 on: May 03, 2018, 07:34:42 PM »
Hi MarkStyles
Wow impressive track record, good to hear from a professional experienced in this field. I am interested in your point about disabling software midi thru in Logic, exactly like you that's the sort of problem I'm getting when selecting a track and it immediately echoing midi data back to genos as well as control messages from Genos.  I'll have to look at my setup again and see if there's a better way of achieving things, maybe resort to 5 pin DIN midi and get my head around Logic Pro in more depth.  Also like you I've resorted to using midi tracks 2-15 when I don't really want to reset the Genos to recover track 1.  I've never had this happen with any other keyboard or synth I've owned hence my suspicions.  Also there are occasions where I get stuck notes, probably me overloading USB midi given its trying to do an awful lot of other stuff (including my external drives) over USB. 

Simon
 

Offline markstyles

Re: Possible bug when controlling Genos from DAW over USB midi
« Reply #32 on: May 04, 2018, 03:19:51 AM »
I thought there used to be a 'midi thru' switch in Logic, but I can't find it anymore.. Did they take it out, assuming you would disable 'software monitoring..

If you haven't discovered - https://www.logicprohelp.com It's very knowledgeable.. I keep forgetting to ask.. Also there is a whole new generation  (actually several now) that use Logic more on a surface level. Many new music composition people tend to like cubase or especially Ableton Livell  I've stuck with Logic for decades now.. Before Apple owned it.. I really don't feel like learning a new DAW.. but if I have to at some point I will..

Yes selecting a midi track to adjust volume. or pan, puts it into 'record enable'.. and often echo's midi back, even to other midi channels than that selected..

I go into Genos Midi receive channel, and shut off 'MIDI RECEIVE'.. I really wish Yamaha allowed us more than 10 user spots.

Oh well..  We have to adapt to what the hardware and software manufactures create..

I have never had this MIDI channel disappear.. The fastest solution for me is to re-assign LOGIC MIDI track to another Genos SONG MIDI channel..
However I quite often overdub a number of different style parts and use up all of Genos Song channels.

Yamaha's 256 note polyphony is a bit misleading. There are 256 tone generators, but some patches use more than one tone generator. The most complex uses 8 tone generators (the mega voices).. So in reality, if you create dense music, you can easily 'run out of polyphony. To be fair Genos and The Tyros did an excellent job of voice stealing.. So it is often not noticeable.

Yes, I get 'hanging notes.  You can create a custom Transport with the MIDI IN and MIDI OUT windows, clicking and holding MIDI OUT will reset all notes, all midi channels and this will kill hanging notes.  If you frustrated you can just lay both your arms on Genos, and with luck you will use up all the voices, the hanging note will disappear..  Hanging notes are not uncommon. although thankfully they don't happen all the time..  In Logic there is a MIDI reset custom command, you can select which features you want to reset.  all notes reset, pichbend zero out, modulation zero out. etc. 
 

Offline markstyles

Re: Possible bug when controlling Genos from DAW over USB midi
« Reply #33 on: May 04, 2018, 03:21:12 AM »
I thought there used to be a 'midi thru' switch in Logic, but I can't find it anymore.. Did they take it out, assuming you would disable 'software monitoring..

If you haven't discovered - https://www.logicprohelp.com It's very knowledgeable.. I keep forgetting to ask.. Also there is a whole new generation  (actually several now) that use Logic more on a surface level. Many new music composition people tend to like cubase or especially Ableton Livell  I've stuck with Logic for decades now.. Before Apple owned it.. I really don't feel like learning a new DAW.. but if I have to at some point I will..

Yes selecting a midi track to adjust volume. or pan, puts it into 'record enable'.. and often echo's midi back, even to other midi channels than that selected..

I go into Genos Midi receive channel, and shut off 'MIDI RECEIVE'.. I really wish Yamaha allowed us more than 10 user spots.

I don't know if using 5 pin midi will gain you anything.. But I haven't check that..

Oh well..  We have to adapt to what the hardware and software manufactures create..

I have never had this MIDI channel disappear.. The fastest solution for me is to re-assign LOGIC MIDI track to another Genos SONG MIDI channel..
However I quite often overdub a number of different style parts and use up all of Genos Song channels.

Yamaha's 256 note polyphony is a bit misleading. There are 256 tone generators, but some patches use more than one tone generator. The most complex uses 8 tone generators (the mega voices).. So in reality, if you create dense music, you can easily 'run out of polyphony. To be fair Genos and The Tyros did an excellent job of voice stealing.. So it is often not noticeable.

Yes, I get 'hanging notes.  You can create a custom Transport with the MIDI IN and MIDI OUT windows, clicking and holding MIDI OUT will reset all notes, all midi channels and this will kill hanging notes.  If you frustrated you can just lay both your arms on Genos, and with luck you will use up all the voices, the hanging note will disappear..  Hanging notes are not uncommon. although thankfully they don't happen all the time..  In Logic there is a MIDI reset custom command, you can select which features you want to reset.  all notes reset, pichbend zero out, modulation zero out. etc. 
 
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