Author Topic: Our constant search for better sounds.. rant.  (Read 1969 times)

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Offline sugarplumsss

Our constant search for better sounds.. rant.
« on: April 17, 2018, 02:03:05 AM »
The major reason we search for better piano, bass, guitar, synth, sax, etc sounds
Is NOT for the audience sake, at least not directly so.

The reason is so WE play better... so those better sounds increase our chances of a better performance.
THEN at that point, the audience notes our better performance.

It is not like a better piano sample will be noted by audience. No way, no how.

What the audience MAY notice.... you performed better. You were more relaxed.
Never think the audience notices that new expansion pack sound palette .. they do not  in 999 out of 1000 cases.
They notice perhaps your slightly better performance.

Extending this idea a bit further:
I think music industry has things backwards.
The presiding idea is that what the audience hears in the mains, is more important , given a choice, than what the performer hears in monitors .

I would rather see an artist who is very comfortable with his sound in his monitors, and suffer a little in his sound in the mains.
Than the converse.
I am not recommending an awful sound in the mains though!!
I want to hear the artists best performance.
Both ideal monitor and ideal mains, is optimal, but not likely.
Oh, I forgot, in a band there is the third factor, of the band members hearing one
another optimally too.
I use T4 as a drum machine. Playing my own acmp and bass. MIDI songs are my latest interest. If anyone wishes to share knowledge on MIDI songs let me know.
 
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Offline Denn

Re: Our constant search for better sounds.. rant.
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2018, 10:22:19 PM »
Hello, Sound, like taste and smell, is a personal thing. If your played a Casio (heaven forbid) on stage and next week played a Tyros 4 I doubt if the audience would tell the difference. You are correct, It is for your own self that the sound is produced. I have a S770 and  Tyros4. The T4 is mellow compared to the S770. I have just spent about 8 hours with the Genos and my opinion is that:- Would I buy a Genos for $7500? NO!! Would I buy a Genos for $75? NO!! I like the T4 best of all.
See my post further up. Regards, Denn.
Love knitting dolls
 
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Offline sugarplumsss

Re: Our constant search for better sounds.. rant.
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2018, 12:04:42 AM »
Wow.  I am guessing you are in the minority. Can you give more concrete specifics why you prefer the T4 over the Genos?
I use T4 as a drum machine. Playing my own acmp and bass. MIDI songs are my latest interest. If anyone wishes to share knowledge on MIDI songs let me know.
 

Offline mcbrown

Re: Our constant search for better sounds.. rant.
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2018, 12:36:13 AM »
If you want to hear what the audience hears try a line array such as a Bose or LD Systems Maui. These are set up behind you which does away with the use of fold back monitors. As you know, what we hear on stage and what the audience hears with conventional speaker systems is usually vastly different.

Murray
Genos + spkrs, TouchMix 30 Dig Mixer, Fender Strat & Tele, Cole Clark FL3 Acoustic, Music Man 210 75 and Behringer: GMX 212 Guitar amps & FCB1010, B1200D Subs x 2 & B205D f/b spkrs x4, Boss: GT-10 Guitar Fx, Roland: GR-55 Guitar Synth, MAUI 28 G2 x2
 
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Offline EileenL

Re: Our constant search for better sounds.. rant.
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2018, 02:09:03 AM »
Even after eight hours you wont probably know the potential  Genos has over previous keyboards. The first thing that struck me was the sound quality over my Tyros 5. Every thing is so much clearer and sound separation and effects are so pleasing to the ear. Takes a little while to get used to using the touch screen and finding where things are but the six assignable buttons are great for storing your favorite functions and you can even change the ones at the bottom of the screen to things you prefer.
  All in all a great keyboard.
 
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Offline sugarplumsss

Re: Our constant search for better sounds.. rant.
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2018, 04:52:45 AM »
Thank you Eileen

1.Ball park ( approximate ) prices here in USA, as of May 2018?

2. Bugs? Ought I hold off longer, or are bugs either too few, or non essential for most of us, most of the time, to be no sound reason to hold off?

Try reciting that last sentence ten times with marbles in mouth, and standing on head!
Thanks
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 04:55:13 AM by sugarplumsss »
I use T4 as a drum machine. Playing my own acmp and bass. MIDI songs are my latest interest. If anyone wishes to share knowledge on MIDI songs let me know.
 

Offline Denn

Re: Our constant search for better sounds.. rant.
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2018, 06:44:09 AM »
Hello Sugarplumsss. You asked for it!! Why do I prefer the Tyros4 over the Genos. Well here is my answer!

Hello All, Have just returned from Perth (Au) and had a great play on the Genos. Shop had a good supply of Yamaha kbds and other instruments. I am now in Adelaide and spent 4 hours uninterrupted with the Genos. Again the shop was full of Yamaha gear. Shop in Darwin did not even know the Tyros, just the S.970 and S770. Perth and Melbourne shop are selling Genos like there was no tomorrow.
For me the Genos is a no-go. Did not like the touch screen and had great problems finding my way through the clutter on the screen. Screen was too flat for playing sitting down and reflected the overhead lights. Press the Style button and the boxes were just too small for a quick one touch. Tried 3 times to get the Ballroom styles up. No "world" styles, have to go through Legacy to find them. Looks to me as though they have added the Alpen pack to the Genos, all mixed up. Thought that Yamaha would have sorted the lists into alpha order not the old Yamaha number order. My two friends who accompanied me thought that the sounds were too sharp, not like the mellow Tyros.
Although in both stores,Perth and Adelaide, I was offered a really good deal, I will stay with my Tyros4. The Genos did not really impress me. Now that is only my opinion.
Regards, Den.

Now that I am home and have a decent typing keyboard I would like to express the things I found or not on the Genos.
First, it is NOT a touch pad but a poke pad. It needs a good push.
I wanted to find the Hawaiian style but the only way to find that was to put my USB stick in with my T4 program regs, bring up the song and then find the style.
I wanted to get a tenor sax in R1 – guess what! A sax is a woodwind on the Genos. Had to find that using my USB again.
Needed to put some chorus and reverb on -  where is the mixing console and the functions?? Lost in a clutter of whatever.
Eventually found the Touch thingy, it is 4 squares with green ticks. Why would you want to just have touch on one voice and not all of them. To get the touch effects you need to lift your fingers, which defeats the object of legato on the other voices.
Now 8 assignable knobs. Assuming you have a fantastic memory and can remember what you assigned to them you need a stack of cards as the Hammond Spinet drawbars had. The sliders have no buttons for fine adjustments.
I do not know if the Genos has a hard drive or not but if not then recording to a USB stick is going to be a nightmare with “Drive Busy” and your recording lost.
All in all, using the screen to try and twiddle knobs or move sliders accurately is a skill you will really need to acquire over some time.  The salesman said that “As long as you are within 10 either side with the sliders that is OK”. I would like my music to be a bit more accurate than that.
To this I must add that sound, like taste and smell, is a very personal opinion. To say “This sounds better than that” is up to the individual.
Finally, I think that Yamaha have made a keyboard answering all the requests of players but have done it in a very sarcastic way.
Would I buy one at $7500? NO
Would I buy one at $75? Again NO.
 
Ps. I bought another Tyros4 from the shop in Perth a few months ago and have bought from the shop in Adelaide. I went there with the money in the bank to maybe bring a Genos home. Unfortunately or otherwise the Genos did not meet up to what I thought.
 
Now these comments are MY opinions only and are not meant to upset any of our members on the forum.
Regards, Den.
Love knitting dolls
 
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Offline sugarplumsss

Re: Our constant search for better sounds.. rant.
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2018, 07:30:13 AM »
And I appreciate your candor.  Keep it up.  An about PC? To hell with it. 
Tact and diplomacy were already in place, long before the lies of PC culture.
So stay true.
I use T4 as a drum machine. Playing my own acmp and bass. MIDI songs are my latest interest. If anyone wishes to share knowledge on MIDI songs let me know.
 

Offline Lee Batchelor

Re: Our constant search for better sounds.. rant.
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2018, 09:00:51 PM »
Excellent comments, Den. No offence taken here my friend. Sounds like the bulk of your issues is with the new interface. I agree - things are different than the T series and some refinements are needed. As for the sounds being "sharp," you can easily mellow them out to sound just like your T4 but with FAR better end results.

Murray - I agree about the Bose or Maui systems being best. Problem is, most of these halls are still putting us on plywood stages that often have us sitting too close to at least one of our speakers, if not both. The best places are the seniors' residences where they often put us in huge atriums. In those, we can put the speakers 10 to 15 feet behind us, and then we become more a "part of the audience." I know Bose recommends we set up at least 7 feet in front of their speakers. That works, but not on a 4 x 8 foot sheet of plywood. At 8 feet, you only have 1 foot left in which to set up the rest of your gear! You end up being 3 feet at best, away from the speakers - too close!
Current Gear: Genos, SoundCraft mixer, two Bose L1 Compacts, 15 inch sub designed and built by myself, Yamaha HS8 studio monitors, Cubase 8 Artist, Steinberg UR-44.
 

Offline Pianoman

Re: Our constant search for better sounds.. rant.
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2018, 07:55:47 AM »
And I appreciate your candor.  Keep it up.  An about PC? To hell with it. 

So stay true.



Unfortunately, PC is what we have nowadays, and it's here to stay.

We now hesitate to speak our views because it might offend somebody's
sensitivities.

Trying to speak truth to anyone becomes like navigating a minefield.

And it will will eventually offend someone sooner or later, when there are
opposing points of view involved.

That's because many people (not most) will approach a subject with their views already
 set in stone, and come ready to do battle whenever those views are challenged.

Politely agreeing to disagree is slowly going out of fashion and disappearing.

Thus, when giving an opposite point of view, there's always a chance that someone
might take it as a personal affront, and either respond in an uncivil manner,
or just feel victimised.

It is very unfortunate, but that's how it is.

Best Regards.
Abby.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 04:25:56 PM by Pianoman »
Musicians don't retire; they stop when there's no more music in them.

Louis Armstrong.


Welcome To My YouTube Videos.
https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJo1iW9nz1GWzeg1QBl-1wVx14CDWlBqx
 
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Offline travlin-easy

Re: Our constant search for better sounds.. rant.
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2018, 09:47:35 AM »
Lee, when I was still working and performing some larger jobs requiring a pair of Bose L1 Compacts, those speakers were within arms reach of where I was sitting and there was never, ever a problem with feedback. I heard exactly what the audiences were hearing, and almost at the same level. No need to place them 7 feet away.

Good luck,

Gary 8)
Love Those Yammies...
 
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Offline sugarplumsss

Re: Our constant search for better sounds.. rant.
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2018, 11:44:28 AM »
2 Comments.
I have not tried the 7- 8 feet ahead of my Bose L1 Model 2 suggestion.
My speakers tend to be close. At some point though, I may try it speakers far from me.

About the encroaching PC.. like cancer, it robs us of the essence of free speech.
( Is political chat "legal" here? If not, my sincere apology. I won't continue down this road.  If that is the case, please delete this) Politics is a very divisive topic.
I only responded in regard to the free expression of member Denn's "right" to speak negatively about Genos. NO OTHER REASON. So delete if I violated a rule I may have overlooked.)  I have no opinion about Genos.

A man of tremendous intelligence, education ( that is directly related to what is going on in the culture. esp the university ) , compassion, direct no nonsense truth when necessary, and more courage than any ten public figures; I strongly urge this whole community to listen extensively to Professor Jordan Peterson.
Like me ( only in this one sense!! ) he is neither left nor right. He speaks of principles that are above politics; most notably on the essential importance of free speech. He also has amazing composure under fire.
He has many fans on more than one side of the political spectrum. I see him as a Paul Revere figure in a very confused, conflicted world stage.

One of hundreds of videos - so if a few turn you off, keep looking, he is worth it.
Here is a recent one- unfortunately with the crude Bill Maher.
https://youtu.be/OzxEK7kg6rk
« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 12:26:23 PM by sugarplumsss »
I use T4 as a drum machine. Playing my own acmp and bass. MIDI songs are my latest interest. If anyone wishes to share knowledge on MIDI songs let me know.
 

Offline Lee Batchelor

Re: Our constant search for better sounds.. rant.
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2018, 08:51:31 PM »
Quote
Lee, when I was still working and performing some larger jobs requiring a pair of Bose L1 Compacts, those speakers were within arms reach of where I was sitting and there was never, ever a problem with feedback. I heard exactly what the audiences were hearing, and almost at the same level. No need to place them 7 feet away.

Agreed, Gary. I often work close to my Bose and feedback is pretty minimal. My issue is when I must sit closer to one than the other. I get too much of one channel, especially when I'm just playing straight piano for our jazz trio. If I can be at least 7 feet in front, there is a more balanced stereo sound. How far apart do you run your two Bose speakers?
Current Gear: Genos, SoundCraft mixer, two Bose L1 Compacts, 15 inch sub designed and built by myself, Yamaha HS8 studio monitors, Cubase 8 Artist, Steinberg UR-44.
 

Offline sugarplumsss

Re: Our constant search for better sounds.. rant.
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2018, 01:11:00 AM »
Lee, this balance issue. Has a solution. But... if you are like the majority of professionals I speak to... they seem to value what the audience hears OVER what they hear.
I am in the minority with regard to that dilemma. I suggest you simply turn down via
panning or just one of the Bose.. and be done with it.
I come to a performance ( rarely these days ) hoping to hear the artist at HIS best.
If I want to hear perfect stereo sound, eq'ed to perfection, I can throw on a CD!

I want to hear artist who is most comfortable. When he is most comfortable, I get the best from the artist, and if the sound in the room is less than perfect, I do not care.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2018, 01:24:05 AM by sugarplumsss »
I use T4 as a drum machine. Playing my own acmp and bass. MIDI songs are my latest interest. If anyone wishes to share knowledge on MIDI songs let me know.
 

Offline Lee Batchelor

Re: Our constant search for better sounds.. rant.
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2018, 03:07:51 AM »
Agreed, sugarplumsss.

There is an old saying, "If your stage sound is less than perfect, you don't play well." Words that resonate with me, at least :).

I played a private party a few years ago in a renovated barn. There were no room resonances or reflections to deal with. The Bose were quite far away from me. I was basically in the audience area. This was due to the way we had to set up. I played the entire gig with perfect sound. I have never played better!

Panning the signal down a bit might work, but it may drastically affect the audience experience. Thanks for chiming in.
Current Gear: Genos, SoundCraft mixer, two Bose L1 Compacts, 15 inch sub designed and built by myself, Yamaha HS8 studio monitors, Cubase 8 Artist, Steinberg UR-44.
 

Re: Our constant search for better sounds.. rant.
« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2018, 06:00:24 AM »
I  try to put the speakers at the the same height and the same distance from my head and slightly in front of me. I am not sure why the symmetrical position is so important for me to be able to hear what I play correctly, it does not help to alter the volumes.  But I have the same problem with listening to a HIFI, I definitely want to sit in the middle. 

Having the speakers behind me does in my experience augment the danger of feed back and as doctors say, a high volume whistling feed back is the worst thing you can do to your  (and your audience's)  hearing as in nature there are only low frequency loud noises like thunder. High frequency is always at very low volume so we are not genetically repaired to endure that without damage.

Cheers

Kaarlo
The year you were born is unimportant as long as you can still play your keyboard and don't have to change the treble setting