Author Topic: Live Control Sliders and MIDI Out  (Read 703 times)

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Live Control Sliders and MIDI Out
« on: February 12, 2018, 03:59:01 AM »
Does anyone know if the live control sliders send any type of MIDI values/info?

I'd like to control the drawbars in an external virtual instrument.
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Offline Joe H

Re: Live Control Sliders and MIDI Out
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2018, 05:11:02 AM »
Biggs,

I would suggest running MixMaster on your PC and open the MIDI Monitor... (you must turn it on) move the sliders and see what being transmitted by the Genos.

If you don't have it you can get it here:  https://psrtutorial.com/MB/mixMaster.html

Another thought is to look at any MIDI Configuration file to see if there is any references on the Transmit page to the Live Control knobs or faders.

Joe H

Music is the Universal Language!

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Offline SeaGtGruff

Re: Live Control Sliders and MIDI Out
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2018, 05:22:20 AM »
Note that if you can assign different functions to the Live Control sliders, the data being transmitted is likely to change based on what the sliders are assigned to.
Michael Rideout
YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443, PSR-EW400
 
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Re: Live Control Sliders and MIDI Out
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2018, 07:03:04 AM »
I would suggest running MixMaster on your PC and open the MIDI Monitor... (you must turn it on) move the sliders and see what being transmitted by the Genos.

Thanks, Joe! I figured I would probably end up having to run some type of monitoring program and just see what happens in real time.
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Re: Live Control Sliders and MIDI Out
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2018, 07:06:03 AM »
Note that if you can assign different functions to the Live Control sliders, the data being transmitted is likely to change based on what the sliders are assigned to.

True, I considered that certainly could be the case. Alternatively, they could be set to output one type of data with a translator type of application, which is routing it internally dependant on what you have them set to control. Can't wait to find out! :)
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Online voodoo

Re: Live Control Sliders and MIDI Out
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2018, 08:46:38 AM »
Yes, the slides send data to midi according to their assigned functions.

Example:

Moving the volume slider for part right 1 in the balance tab sends out midi control change #7 on the channel configured for right 1 in the midi transmit settings. This is very handy when using external midi sound modules and using the sliders to control them.

Uli
Yamaha Genos (finally)
Nord Electro 5D
 

Offline pjd

Re: Live Control Sliders and MIDI Out
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2018, 02:43:29 PM »
Hi --

MIDI-OX has some decent monitoring features with selective event filtering, etc. Does SysEx capture, too.

-- pj
 

Offline Joe H

Re: Live Control Sliders and MIDI Out
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2018, 02:47:02 PM »
Uli,

Yes the keyboard will transmit continuous controllers.  But I found on the S970 that some functions of the Live Control are NOT transmitted.  For instance the Arp gate Time and Arp Velocity.  And there is NO sysex provided in the Data List Book to send this info via an external controller.

I requested the sysex from Yamaha here in the USA, but they said there wasn't any such published data.  The Motif does provide sysex for ALL arpeggio parameters in the Data List Book.  It's too bad Yamaha has omitted this info on the arranger.

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

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Online voodoo

Re: Live Control Sliders and MIDI Out
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2018, 11:31:25 AM »
Joe,

you are right. I am still trying to use midi and sysex communication for my needs (in combination with an iPad).

* There are functions that are sent by midi, for example all changes to DSP parameters. That is quite cool. I can control the Drive parameter by external control.
* But others don't have midi messages. For example drawbar organ settings. This is sad.

Uli
Yamaha Genos (finally)
Nord Electro 5D
 

Offline pjd

Re: Live Control Sliders and MIDI Out
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2018, 02:38:55 PM »
But others don't have midi messages. For example drawbar organ settings. This is sad.

Hi Uli --

You've probably have seen it, but there is a SysEx bulk dump message for organ drawbar settings. (Genos Data List PDF, page 112).

The problem for real-time control is that all drawbar parameters are packed into a single SysEx message. It's not possible to change a single drawbar without sending the whole bloomin' message. If Yamaha want Genos to compete against clones, they need to provide drawbar control via MIDI CC.

I built a quick and dirty Arduino-based drawbar controller using this SysEx message:
http://sandsoftwaresound.net/dangershield-drawbars/
but, I doubt that's what you're looking for.  ;)

All the best -- pj
 

Offline Joe H

Re: Live Control Sliders and MIDI Out
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2018, 03:46:33 PM »
It looks like there are 22 data bytes in the bulk dump string.  There are MIDI utilities that allow you send a dump request and save.

But I'm wondering if the draw bar settings are save in a registration... that would be the easiest way to save you custom organ settings.

Joe H
« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 07:36:38 PM by Joe H »
Music is the Universal Language!

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Online voodoo

Re: Live Control Sliders and MIDI Out
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2018, 03:02:11 PM »
Pj and Jow,

wow, you are fantastic. That is, what I was looking for.

1) I was looking for XG parameter request. I want to read out DSP settings and display/change them on iPad, using the iOS app "TB Midi Stuff".

2) With the organ Fluted data bulk dump, it should be possible to

* request the bulk dump with all settings
* change one parameter, for example the volume
* send the bulk back to Genos

This could be a way to change organ volume PRE DSP over Midi.
But, is there a way to request the organ flutes bulk dump? I don't see this request command in the listing.

Uli
Yamaha Genos (finally)
Nord Electro 5D
 

Online voodoo

Re: Live Control Sliders and MIDI Out
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2018, 01:55:06 PM »
Some interesting comment:

I found out that some midi messages are only sent over port A of Genos. (!)

I always had my midi interface (USB or Bluetooth) at midi port B of Genos. There only messages for DSP parameter changes were sent (XG parameter change: F0 43 10 4C ...). But now I watched midi port A of Genos. And here also changes to organ flutes parameter are sent whenever a change takes place (Clavinova bulk dump: F0 43 73 01 ...).

So we can control organ flute parameters by midi. But as stated before, only all parameters at the same time.

Uli

P.S.: the sysex messages that are needed for communication with Songbook+ are also sent only over midi port A. So connect midi interface always to port A.
Yamaha Genos (finally)
Nord Electro 5D
 

Offline StuartR

Re: Live Control Sliders and MIDI Out
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2018, 04:44:28 PM »
Some interesting comment:

I found out that some midi messages are only sent over port A of Genos. (!) the sysex messages that are needed for communication with Songbook+ are also sent only over midi port A. So connect midi interface always to port A.

If this isn't documented in the reference manual, and not fixed in next week's update, please let Yamaha know.
 

Online voodoo

Re: Live Control Sliders and MIDI Out
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2018, 01:41:20 AM »
I found out that some midi messages are only sent over port A of Genos. (!)

Ok, some update to this:

The Sysex messages concerning the transmission of organ parameters takes place on that midi port depending on the midi transmit settings for the part where the organ voice is loaded. So when the organ voice is loaded in part right 3 and part right 3 is set to transmit on port B channel 1, then the corresponding midi messages are sent to port B and not to port A. So it was my fault that I did not see theses messages.

However, the midi message containing the name of the registration bank, seems to be restricted to port A always.

Uli
Yamaha Genos (finally)
Nord Electro 5D
 

Offline Joe H

Re: Live Control Sliders and MIDI Out
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2018, 02:06:50 AM »
Ok, some update to this:

The Sysex messages concerning the transmission of organ parameters takes place on that midi port depending on the midi transmit settings for the part where the organ voice is loaded. So when the organ voice is loaded in part right 3 and part right 3 is set to transmit on port B channel 1, then the corresponding midi messages are sent to port B and not to port A. So it was my fault that I did not see theses messages.

However, the midi message containing the name of the registration bank, seems to be restricted to port A always.

Uli

Unfortunately the arranger MIDI Data Formats are the worst Yamaha have provided.  There was more with the TG100, TG300, MU100R and MU128 sound modules which cost a lot less.  With the Genos there should be EVERYTHING included in the MIDI Data formats like with the Motif (which costs less BTW).  I'd be willing to bet the Montage come with a complete MIDI Format as well.

What we are talking about here is fixable with a firmware update.  Yamaha need to get with the program!

 :)

Joe H
« Last Edit: February 18, 2018, 02:08:28 AM by Joe H »
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Re: Live Control Sliders and MIDI Out
« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2018, 08:57:54 PM »
With the Genos there should be EVERYTHING included in the MIDI Data formats like .....

 :)

Joe H

I see you guys are fluent in "Midileese". I am not.  You may know there was a YAMAHA BLOW CONTROLLER  to make wind instruments playable so that they really sound like a wind instrument which they do not  in case you cannot "blow" them. But the gadgets never caught on because it was a little "on-off-ish" and only affected volume. We all know a trumpet blown hard has a different  harmonic content than one blown at low volume so in addition to a VCA you need  VCF  reacting to the blow pressure. 25 years ago I got the schematics of  the  Steiner Master Touch and built a rack mount unit for the TYROS.   RH  2 and 3 are output on the TYROS/GENOS  AUX outputs, go through this unit into the amp mixer. But things evolve, and get smaller and lighter.  Now a Swedish firm has developed a midi unit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wm-U44kNtmI

but to use it you would have to be able to input midi control values into Genos for just the AUX output.  Does anyone of you midi experts see a possibility for that ?

Cheers
Kaarlo

The year you were born is unimportant as long as you can still play your keyboard and don't have to change the treble setting
 
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Re: Live Control Sliders and MIDI Out
« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2018, 11:55:10 PM »
You may know there was a YAMAHA BLOW CONTROLLER  to make wind instruments playable

Oh man, this is awesome! I use to have the BC-1 and I have a WX wind controller. If this works with Genoe, I AM IN! :)
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Offline Joe H

Re: Live Control Sliders and MIDI Out
« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2018, 03:16:53 AM »
I see you guys are fluent in "Midileese". I am not.  You may know there was a YAMAHA BLOW CONTROLLER  to make wind instruments playable so that they really sound like a wind instrument which they do not  in case you cannot "blow" them. But the gadgets never caught on because it was a little "on-off-ish" and only affected volume. We all know a trumpet blown hard has a different  harmonic content than one blown at low volume so in addition to a VCA you need  VCF  reacting to the blow pressure. 25 years ago I got the schematics of  the  Steiner Master Touch and built a rack mount unit for the TYROS.   RH  2 and 3 are output on the TYROS/GENOS  AUX outputs, go through this unit into the amp mixer. But things evolve, and get smaller and lighter.  Now a Swedish firm has developed a midi unit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wm-U44kNtmI

but to use it you would have to be able to input midi control values into Genos for just the AUX output.  Does anyone of you midi experts see a possibility for that ?

Cheers
Kaarlo

Yes I own 2 Yamaha BC2 Breath Controllers.  They send MIDI CC02 or CC11 and do control Volume if you try to play the wind instruments on the arranger.  They were designed to be used with the VL keyboards, sound modules and VL plug-in cards install in a keyboard or sound module.

The important thing to know is when used with the VL instruments, there is a lot more going on than just the Volume.  There are 16 VL parameters that potentially can be set to respond to the Breath Control message, Pitch Bend or the Modulation Wheel.  Things like, Throat Formant, Pressure, Ambouchure, Tonguing, Scream, Breath Noise, Growl, Harmonic Enhanser, Damping, Absorption.  There is also a "Breath Curve" that sets the sensitivity as well as 2 controls on the BC2 that allows you to adjust the response in terms of how hard you need to blow.

The WX wind controller has more options than the BC1, BC2 or BC3.

Also, depending on how hard you blow and how quickly you blow will change the nuances of the VL wind instrument.

VL is Virtual Acoustic Physical Modelling that was developed by Yamaha and Standford University in the 1990s.  It is a quite fascinating technology. It has an element of realism unmatched by even SA2 Voices in the Tyros and Genos arrangers.

Joe H 
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 05:10:56 AM by Joe H »
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html