Topic: Volume and expression is post dsp for drawbar organ?

[voodoo]

Hi,

Today I tried to combine distortion and rotary for a drawbar organ. This worked very well.  I used the following DSP assignment:

Voice: Organ UpsideDownSmile (or any other organ flutes voice)

Insertion Effect 1: Right1: V Distortion Blues
Insertion Effect 2: Right1: Real rotary

This setting can be saved to registry. And since the rotary is the last dsp in the chain, the rotors speed can be switched with button or foot pedal as usual.

When I assign "volume" (cc7) or "expression" (cc11) to the expression pedal, in any case the degree of distortion keeps the same, even when the volume of the organ voice is lowered.

This is not realistic. The Expression pedal should be located before the distortion effect. So when playing soft notes, these should be not distorted. 

For the Native Instruments B4 vsti plugin, behaviour was this:

* expression cc11 was before distortion, simulating the swell pedal
* volume cc7 was after distortion, controlling the balance in the mix

But  on Genos both parameters are post dsp, keeping always the full distortion.

There is a volume parameter in the draw bars screen, ranging from 0 to 8.  This level if before dsp distortion. However, this value cannot be controlled by expression pedal. Or can it?

Uli 

[Dromeus]

This is not realistic. The Expression pedal should be located before the distortion effect. So when playing soft notes, these should be not distorted. 

Hi Uli

The simple truth is: the Genos is not a Hammond B3 clone. What you describe is only one of several shortcomings. To get the real ****... pardon me folks, sound, use one of these excellent VSTi's available on the market or a hardware clone.

[pjd]

Hi Uli --

Thanks for performing this experiment! It's on my TO-DO list.

Seems like CC11 (expression) should control the organ level. That's what I would expect the expression pedal to do. Then, the controlled volume goes to the distortion block. If I understand your message correctly, this is what is happening.

So, the issue is the distortion algorithm which does not apply distortion according to the input level that hits the algorithm. With typical guitar pedal or tube amp in mind, the algorithm is not realistic. Distortion should change with the amount of signal (i.e., the level) which hits it. [This is what you're expecting, too.]

Is there, maybe, a distortion algorithm which behaves more like real circuits? Perhaps one of the so-called "REAL DISTORTION" effects or amp simulators? I suspect that the V DISTORTION algorithms are older and maybe not as realistic.

Just a few thoughts...

I appreciate you're break a new trail in the snow.

All the best -- pj

[StuartR]

Hi Uli --

Thanks for performing this experiment! It's on my TO-DO list.

Seems like CC11 (expression) should control the organ level. That's what I would expect the expression pedal to do. Then, the controlled volume goes to the distortion block. If I understand your message correctly, this is what is happening.

So, the issue is the distortion algorithm which does not apply distortion according to the input level that hits the algorithm. With typical guitar pedal or tube amp in mind, the algorithm is not realistic. Distortion should change with the amount of signal (i.e., the level) which hits it. [This is what you're expecting, too.]

Is there, maybe, a distortion algorithm which behaves more like real circuits? Perhaps one of the so-called "REAL DISTORTION" effects or amp simulators? I suspect that the V DISTORTION algorithms are older and maybe not as realistic.

Just a few thoughts...

I'm glad that this signal change is possible and I appreciate you're break a new trail in the snow.

All the best -- pj

What say you about this, Yamaha folks?

[voodoo]

Hi Uli --
Seems like CC11 (expression) should control the organ level. That's what I would expect the expression pedal to do. Then, the controlled volume goes to the distortion block. If I understand your message correctly, this is what is happening.

Hi pj,

sorry for being not clear. What you describe (CC11 = organ level, pre amp) is what it should be like. But in Genos it is CC11=CC7, both post amp.

When I use organ level on screen, it behaves well: the distortion gets less when level is lowered. But unfortunately, there is no way to control this organ level by any hardware control (Midi cc, expression pedal, live control).

Uli

[voodoo]

Hi Uli

The simple truth is: the Genos is not a Hammond B3 clone. What you describe is only one of several shortcomings.

Yes, of course. It is no B3 clone. But it is an electronic music instrument. And not offering live control for essential sound parameters is a general shortcoming of Genos.

[KeyboardByBiggs]

Yes, of course. It is no B3 clone.

I've seen this statement more than a few times, and I think it's really misguided and unnecessary, settling for less than you deserve. (I know you didn't say thing voodoo, you were just referring to the sentiment.)

At the sophistication and price level of an instrument (a keyboard instrument no less) like Genos, it ought to be pretty darn close to containing something akin to a "clonewheel". It ain't rocket science. (Example coming up...)

Look at the effort, time and attention that goes into creating something like Kino Strings or Revo drums.

Maybe spend a few freaking extra hours and really nail one of the actual keyboard instruments?

I'm not a Genos hater, I really love mine. The sad thing is, I'm seriously thinking about adding an external instrument in order to get a Hammond organ that is done really well; done right.

Allow me to provide a current example...

The company Acoustic Samples makes an instrument plugin called B5. It's an amazing tonewheel organ. Multiple versions from various year/models (a 1968 B-3, a 1960 C-3, a 1969 C-3 and a 1965 A-100 ), it has ALL the elements, including vibrato, chorus, percussion, tube saturation distortion, and a really nice Leslie (several in fact, and other amps too).

All of this for $125 USD.

Something of this quality level should be in my Genos. That's all I'm sayin'.

Video demo if you'd like to see and hear what it can do: https://youtu.be/bQG0mdN6jRo

[Dromeus]

I agree that it would be killer to have a decent Hammond emulation. Simple fact is that the Tyroses didn't deliver and the Genos is no exception. There is no indication that it will ever happen.
 

The sad thing is, I'm seriously thinking about adding an external instrument in order to get a Hammond organ that is done really well; done right.

That's what I recommended above. If you're really into Hammond organ playing and you're ready to spend the bucks go ahead. It's a lot of fun to use a real hardware clonewheel with two manuals, nice Waterfall keyboard action, drawbars for each manual and a decent Leslie emulation. I play an UHL X3-Smooth and I love it.

[KeyboardByBiggs]

If you're really into Hammond organ playing and you're ready to spend the bucks go ahead. It's a lot of fun to use a real hardware clonewheel with two manuals, nice Waterfall keyboard action, drawbars for each manual and a decent Leslie emulation. I play an UHL X3-Smooth and I love it.

That's the thing. I only have to spend $125 USD to add it. No hardware required.

[StuartR]

That's the thing. I only have to spend $125 USD to add it. No hardware required.

Ad it to what, exactly? Unless I missed something important, this is only VSTi software plugin that requires a personal computer to implement. It's of no help when just gigging with a Genos, right.

[KeyboardByBiggs]

Ad it to what, exactly? Unless I missed something important, this is only VSTi software plugin that requires a personal computer to implement. It's of no help when just gigging with a Genos, right.

Yes, it's a VSTi and is completely useful when playing for yourself, gigging or anything. I have a laptop right next to my Genos, which is MIDIed in and the audio from the laptop is routed into the Genos.

[StuartR]

Yes, it's a VSTi and is completely useful when playing for yourself, gigging or anything. I have a laptop right next to my Genos, which is MIDIed in and the audio from the laptop is routed into the Genos.

Been there, done that, got the midi cables, laptop and all the mess. Was hoping the Genos would have a good enough Leslie implementation. I have some third party organs with Leslie that seem pretty good but who knows.

[KeyboardByBiggs]

Been there, done that, got the midi cables, laptop and all the mess. Was hoping the Genos would have a good enough Leslie implementation. I have some third party organs with Leslie that seem pretty good but who knows.

It doesn't have to be a mess at all Stuart if set up well. The connections are simple enough. I now need to see how well I can integrate it with the Genos. It has to be elegant or no go for me.

I should add that the organs in Genos are perfectly usable and serviceable. If you like to throw in an organ lick from time to time or even a featured organ song here and there, they're perfectly fine.

For me, they're not up to the professional level I'd expect in a keyboard this advanced and at this price (no organ vibrato/chorus? accurate 2nd and 3rd harmonic percussion?). I'm also a life-long organ player that wants a top-notch instrument at my disposal in the Genos, the same way a piano player wants a breathtaking sampled piano in his/her Genos. All the Yamaha company demo people start out by saying just that in regards to the piano. They understand for sure.

It's just baffling to me that a little independent instrument software company can pretty much nail that professional approach and result, at retail, for barely over a hundred bucks. You know?

I also haven't given up on more tweaking within my Genos to see if I can't come closer to an ideal internal sound. Or perhaps someone will offer a custom pack that really lights things up. I'd love to have a look at something like that!

[pjd]

Hi Uli --

Hope this posting makes sense...

I had a chance to experiment this afternoon with drawbar effects. Bottom line: I see what you mean.

My foot pedals assignments are: 1. Sustain, 2. Rotary speed, 3. Volume. I monitored MIDI A OUT with Midi Ox and verified that the expression pedal on foot pedal #3 is sending MIDI CC11 (Expression). The foot pedal changes the volume of the entire channel; yep, it's at the end of the tone generator/effects chain. Not what we want if we want the organ level to affect the amount of distortion in a distortion block somewhere in the effects chain.

So, I tried an experiment. Select a drawbar (organ flutes) voice in RIGHT1. Replace the rotary effect with a distortion effect. I decided to use Y-AMP British Crunch. Now adjust the Volume knob in the drawbar Voice Edit display by "turning" the faux volume knob. The amount of distortion tracks the organ volume level. So, yeah, Y-AMP distortion behaves like real electronics. Setting the Volume knob to 3 is clear, setting to 8 is fuzzed out bliss.

Then, spend 10 minutes playing You Keep Me Hanging On by Vanilla Fudge. Whoops, sorry, that did happen.

Next, replace the Chorus effect with Dual Rotary Speaker Warm. Adjust the Chorus send level for RIGHT1 in the Mixer Chorus/Reverb page. The signal chain is:

     [RIGHT1]      [INSERT]            [CHORUS]               [REVERB]
  Organ flutes -->  Y-AMP  -->  Dual Rotary Speaker Warm  -->  Reverb  --> Out

Open the Dual Rotary Speaker Warm effect and use the on-screen SLOW/FAST switch to change the rotary speaker speed.

In some fashion, the signal chain can be kludged up, but the controllability is horrible! Neither organ volume or rotary speed can be adjusted by assignable knob/pedal; this must be done in the appropriate screen. Changing the insert effect to Y-AMP leaves the rotary speed switch, etc. dead (unresponsive) in the skeuomorphic drawbar Voice Edit page.

Not really a solution, just a possibility. Ideally, Yamaha would rework the drawbar organ interface and signal chain to allow a distortion block before the rotary speaker effect and to let the foot pedal adjust the output from the drawbar emulator to the distortion block. Software enhancement?

All the best -- pj

P.S. I tried similar experiments with sampled organ, too.

[StuartR]

Hi Uli --

Hope this posting makes sense...

I had a chance to experiment this afternoon with drawbar effects. Bottom line: I see what you mean.

My foot pedals assignments are: 1. Sustain, 2. Rotary speed, 3. Volume. I monitored MIDI A OUT with Midi Ox and verified that the expression pedal on foot pedal #3 is sending MIDI CC11 (Expression). The foot pedal changes the volume of the entire channel; yep, it's at the end of the tone generator/effects chain. Not what we want if we want the organ level to affect the amount of distortion in a distortion block somewhere in the effects chain.

So, I tried an experiment. Select a drawbar (organ flutes) voice in RIGHT1. Replace the rotary effect with a distortion effect. I decided to use Y-AMP British Crunch. Now adjust the Volume knob in the drawbar Voice Edit display by "turning" the faux volume knob. The amount of distortion tracks the organ volume level. So, yeah, Y-AMP distortion behaves like real electronics. Setting the Volume knob to 3 is clear, setting to 8 is fuzzed out bliss.

Then, spend 10 minutes playing You Keep Me Hanging On by Vanilla Fudge. Whoops, sorry, that did happen.

Next, replace the Chorus effect with Dual Rotary Speaker Warm. Adjust the Chorus send level for RIGHT1 in the Mixer Chorus/Reverb page. The signal chain is:

     [RIGHT1]      [INSERT]            [CHORUS]               [REVERB]
  Organ flutes -->  Y-AMP  -->  Dual Rotary Speaker Warm  -->  Reverb  --> Out

Open the Dual Rotary Speaker Warm effect and use the on-screen SLOW/FAST switch to change the rotary speaker speed.

In some fashion, the signal chain can be kludged up, but the controllability is horrible! Neither organ volume or rotary speed can be adjusted by assignable knob/pedal; this must be done in the appropriate screen. Changing the insert effect to Y-AMP leaves the rotary speed switch, etc. dead (unresponsive) in the skeuomorphic drawbar Voice Edit page.

Not really a solution, just a possibility. Ideally, Yamaha would rework the drawbar organ interface and signal chain to allow a distortion block before the rotary speaker effect and to let the foot pedal adjust the output from the drawbar emulator to the distortion block. Software enhancement?

All the best -- pj

P.S. I tried similar experiments with sampled organ, too.

Sounds promising Now if we only had some Yamaha product management folks here who could discuss this with us (you), take it back to the development team and let us know what they think.

If only...😥

[StuartR]

It doesn't have to be a mess at all Stuart if set up well. The connections are simple enough. I now need to see how well I can integrate it with the Genos. It has to be elegant or no go for me.

I should add that the organs in Genos are perfectly usable and serviceable. If you like to throw in an organ lick from time to time or even a featured organ song here and there, they're perfectly fine.

For me, they're not up to the professional level I'd expect in a keyboard this advanced and at this price (no organ vibrato/chorus? accurate 2nd and 3rd harmonic percussion?). I'm also a life-long organ player that wants a top-notch instrument at my disposal in the Genos, the same way a piano player wants a breathtaking sampled piano in his/her Genos. All the Yamaha company demo people start out by saying just that in regards to the piano. They understand for sure.

It's just baffling to me that a little independent instrument software company can pretty much nail that professional approach and result, at retail, for barely over a hundred bucks. You know?

I also haven't given up on more tweaking within my Genos to see if I can't come closer to an ideal internal sound. Or perhaps someone will offer a custom pack that really lights things up. I'd love to have a look at something like that!

I have several third party organ packs for the Tyros 5 that I've installed on the Genos. One is called Live Organs and the other is a collection of Jimmy Smith organ patches. They all sound good to me except for the inability to ramp/sweep the Leslie.
I was wondering if something like a Hammond SK1 would do the trick? Not cheap but has what sounds like a really good Leslie emulation as well as the feel of a real B3 keybed. As an organ player do you have any thoughts on that?

[KeyboardByBiggs]

I have several third party organ packs for the Tyros 5 that I've installed on the Genos. One is called Live Organs and the other is a collection of Jimmy Smith organ patches. They all sound good to me except for the inability to ramp/sweep the Leslie.\

First of all, where can I get those?

I was wondering if something like a Hammond SK1 would do the trick? Not cheap but has what sounds like a really good Leslie emulation as well as the feel of a real B3 keybed. As an organ player do you have any thoughts on that?

Personally, I love the feel of the Genos, so I'm not looking for another set of keys. If you want those square waterfall-style keys then, by all means, find the ones you absolutely love. The SK series is well-liked by a lot of organ players. Perhaps you could find a used one at a decent price.

If it's just the Leslie you're after, there are some pretty nice emulators out there you could run through. Someone just posted a demo of one such unit in another thread here today.

Hammond even makes one of their own: https://youtu.be/GPxGAi5nYFo

The Ventilator and Mini Vent are also popular: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYHje9ioL2Q

[StuartR]

First of all, where can I get those?

Personally, I love the feel of the Genos, so I'm not looking for another set of keys. If you want those square waterfall-style keys then, by all means, find the ones you absolutely love. The SK series is well-liked by a lot of organ players. Perhaps you could find a used one at a decent price.

If it's just the Leslie you're after, there are some pretty nice emulators out there you could run through. Someone just posted a demo of one such unit in another thread here today.

Hammond even makes one of their own: https://youtu.be/GPxGAi5nYFo

The Ventilator and Mini Vent are also popular: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYHje9ioL2Q

Thanks, I just discovered the pedal version of the SK1 digital Leslie. As to the sounds I mentioned, check your email for details.

[voodoo]

Thank you all for the vivid discussion. This forum is great.

Currently I am working on using my iPad together with my Genos. I follow two directions:

* Use any B3 clone wheel app on iPad (Korg Module, IK Multimedia SampleTank, Galileo, PocketOrgan etc.) and play it on the Genos keyboard. I can configure Right 3 to local off and connect iPad over WiFi, bluetooth or USB. And most 10$-Apps for iPad sound better than the organ simulation of Genos, because all have overdrive and rotary working as expected.

* Use iPad as an external midi controller and control Genos DSP parameter by Sysex command over midi. Still experimenting, but proof of concept was successfull.

I plan to write a how-to-do-it-on-iPad series here in this board.

Uli