Author Topic: Yamaha's support for the Genos  (Read 6433 times)

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Offline Dromeus

Yamaha's support for the Genos
« on: January 03, 2018, 09:30:14 AM »
Those of you who are interested in the Yamaha synth line, will be familiar with all the continued efforts spend by the synth department to support their customers in using their products. If you don't know, just as an example have a look at:

https://yamahasynth.com/blog/montage-indepth-programming-series

Browsing this site you will find a wealth of useful information, tutorials and a forum that is not only run by Yamaha, but where real Yamaha experts (e.g. "Bad Mister" Phil Clendeninn) do answer questions in a concise and in-depth manner and share their excellent technical knowledge.

In Europe the Music Production Guide is published as an English and a German edition, providing excellent tutorials:

http://www.easysounds.eu/mpghistory/history_en.htm

Why can't Yamaha arranger users have the same level of support?

Granted a Motif or Montage is a much more complex machine compared to a Genos, but this forum proves that there is a huge need for guidance, tutorials, best practices, how to use the technology and so on. May I recall that a Genos is about 60% more expensive compared to a Montage 7 (prices in Germany)?

Makes me feel like a second class customer  :o.
Regards, Michael
 
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Offline StuartR

Re: Yamaha's support for the Genos
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2018, 01:09:27 PM »
Those of you who are interested in the Yamaha synth line, will be familiar with all the continued efforts spend by the synth department to support their customers in using their products. If you don't know, just as an example have a look at:

https://yamahasynth.com/blog/montage-indepth-programming-series

Browsing this site you will find a wealth of useful information, tutorials and a forum that is not only run by Yamaha, but where real Yamaha experts (e.g. "Bad Mister" Phil Clendeninn) do answer questions in a concise and in-depth manner and share their excellent technical knowledge.

In Europe the Music Production Guide is published as an English and a German edition, providing excellent tutorials:

http://www.easysounds.eu/mpghistory/history_en.htm

Why can't Yamaha arranger users have the same level of support?

Granted a Motif or Montage is a much more complex machine compared to a Genos, but this forum proves that there is a huge need for guidance, tutorials, best practices, how to use the technology and so on. May I recall that a Genos is about 60% more expensive compared to a Montage 7 (prices in Germany)?

Makes me feel like a second class customer  :o.

Good question that really hasn't been answered very well to my knowledge. I owned a Montage for about a year and spent time on their synth forum. I also read their music production newsletters. Both were great assets. Why Yamaha hasn't extended their forum to cover their extensive arranger series is a mystery to me. That's not to say that this forum and a few others aren't great as well but they aren't Yamaha sponsored and as far as I can tell don't have active Yamaha product manager members.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2018, 03:08:19 PM by StuartR »
 
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Offline keynote

Re: Yamaha's support for the Genos
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2018, 02:59:46 PM »

Why can't Yamaha arranger users have the same level of support?

Granted a Motif or Montage is a much more complex machine compared to a Genos, but this forum proves that there is a huge need for guidance, tutorials, best practices, how to use the technology and so on. May I recall that a Genos is about 60% more expensive compared to a Montage 7 (prices in Germany)?

Makes me feel like a second class customer  :o.

That is a very good question indeed! The top of the line arrangers are more expensive than their synth/workstation counterparts but I'm not too sure the latter is much more complex than arrangers are. Arrangers are indeed very complex too since you are dealing with style and registration files both of which require sophisticated software programming in order to play them in a smooth and efficient manner. In other words, the OS (operating system) has to figure out how to play the styles and registrations correctly, in an efficient manner, i.e. no hiccups or freezes or other anomalies that could potentially hinder a person's performance. Granted, synth workstations usually have a sampler and a full fledged sequencer but in fact the Montage has neither.

There are probably as many Yamaha arranger owners as there are Yamaha synth workstation owners so it makes sense that Yamaha would/should start a web based forum, or forums plural, regarding their mid-range and high-end arrangers. To be honest I think the main reason why Yamaha so far has chosen not to start an official web based forum support site for arrangers is they probably think arranger owners are mainly hobbyists (and retired) whereas a good percentage of synth workstation users could be considered more than hobbyists (and younger also) that make a living or supplement their income by gigging professionally. And also a lot of people still have the notion that arrangers are toys that for the most part sound cheesy and therefore don't qualify as serious contenders in the grand scheme of things. Little do they know.  8)

The downsides of starting a web based arranger support site probably outweigh the benefits in Yamaha's point of view. Or perhaps they have never seriously considered doing so and subsequently if more arranger owners voiced their support for such an endeavor then perhaps Yamaha would take it seriously and oblige their customers which is a large segment of keyboard players in general. There are a whole lot of Yamaha arranger owners who would benefit immensely from such an endeavor and if it helps Yamaha's customers it could ultimately help Yamaha's own bottom line as well in my opinion. In other words, a win win situation if I ever heard of one.  :)

Mike 

 
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Offline StuartR

Re: Yamaha's support for the Genos
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2018, 03:12:06 PM »
That is a very good question indeed! The top of the line arrangers are more expensive than their synth/workstation counterparts but I'm not too sure the latter is much more complex than arrangers are. Arrangers are indeed very complex too since you are dealing with style and registration files both of which require sophisticated software programming in order to play them in a smooth and efficient manner. In other words, the OS (operating system) has to figure out how to play the styles and registrations correctly, in an efficient manner, i.e. no hiccups or freezes or other anomalies that could potentially hinder a person's performance. Granted, synth workstations usually have a sampler and a full fledged sequencer but in fact the Montage has neither.

There are probably as many Yamaha arranger owners as there are Yamaha synth workstation owners so it makes sense that Yamaha would/should start a web based forum, or forums plural, regarding their mid-range and high-end arrangers. To be honest I think the main reason why Yamaha so far has chosen not to start an official web based forum support site for arrangers is they probably think arranger owners are mainly hobbyists (and retired) whereas a good percentage of synth workstation users could be considered more than hobbyists (and younger also) that make a living or supplement their income by gigging professionally. And also a lot of people still have the notion that arrangers are toys that for the most part sound cheesy and therefore don't qualify as serious contenders in the grand scheme of things. Little do they know.  8)

The downsides of starting a web based arranger support site probably outweigh the benefits in Yamaha's point of view. Or perhaps they have never seriously considered doing so and subsequently if more arranger owners voiced their support for such an endeavor then perhaps Yamaha would take it seriously and oblige their customers which is a large segment of keyboard players in general. There are a whole lot of Yamaha arranger owners who would benefit immensely from such an endeavor and if it helps Yamaha's customers it could ultimately help Yamaha's own bottom line as well in my opinion. In other words, a win win situation if I ever heard of one.  :)

Mike

Failing a Yamaha supported forum, how about providing some workshops and video tutorials that would cover in detail some of the more complex and powerful arranger features. All we get from Yamaha are demonstrations, most of which aren't even presented in English. Pretty disappointing once you see what Yamaha offers to their synth owners. Scratching my head over this.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2018, 03:38:08 PM by StuartR »
 
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Offline Joe H

Re: Yamaha's support for the Genos
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2018, 04:14:54 PM »
Why can't Yamaha arranger users have the same level of support?

Makes me feel like a second class customer  :o.

I think the short answer is because Joe Waters created this website, and also an awful lot of people (including those at Yamaha) think the arranger keyboard is an inferior instrument to the "synth" line.  People who buy arrangers want to play vintage music... and just want PLAY rather than spend their time tweaking sounds or being creative.

Those of us who would like an arranger with synth capabilities are among a small minority of arranger owners.  But I think Yamaha is slowing changing.  We see a new generation of arranger starting with the Genos.

Stay tuned for more changes in both instrument and attitudes.

 ;)

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline Oldden

Re: Yamaha's support for the Genos
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2018, 04:20:02 PM »
Hi,
Is there anybody from Yamaha out there at the moment reading this post and would like to comment on it ? ...............it's gone very quiet.
Oldden
 

Offline Joe H

Re: Yamaha's support for the Genos
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2018, 04:21:46 PM »
Yamaha folks chime in once in awhile... then go silent.

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline travlin-easy

Re: Yamaha's support for the Genos
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2018, 04:23:27 PM »
The best support you will find for any Yamaha arranger keyboard is right here on this site - period! Granted the support team at Yamaha can solve a lot of technical problems that cannot be solved in this forum, but the forum can solve 99.9-percent of the user associated problems and do this in short order. And, lets face it. Most problems are not hardware/software related. Instead, they are just areas within the operating system where the user cannot find a solution to a problem they encountered when trying to perform certain functions. More often than not, one or more of the forum members has performed that operation and can provide you with step by step information how to go about completing the task at hand. No need to call Yamaha for these things.

Good luck,

Gary 8)
Love Those Yammies...
 

Offline StuartR

Re: Yamaha's support for the Genos
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2018, 04:29:29 PM »
The best support you will find for any Yamaha arranger keyboard is right here on this site - period! Granted the support team at Yamaha can solve a lot of technical problems that cannot be solved in this forum, but the forum can solve 99.9-percent of the user associated problems and do this in short order. And, lets face it. Most problems are not hardware/software related. Instead, they are just areas within the operating system where the user cannot find a solution to a problem they encountered when trying to perform certain functions. More often than not, one or more of the forum members has performed that operation and can provide you with step by step information how to go about completing the task at hand. No need to call Yamaha for these things.

Good luck,

Gary 8)
That's all well and good and greatly appreciated but some actual workshops and video tutorials would be most welcome. As for actual Yamaha product support on this forum, I think I've only seen one person who identified himself thusly but never made any significant contribution. I'd be happy to be proven incorrect.

Offline Oldden

Re: Yamaha's support for the Genos
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2018, 04:33:30 PM »
Hi Gary,
I agree with you completely, but if we did not have this forum what would we do. Lots of customers contacting Yamaha on their own, often with the same problem. This forum is a lifeline to many, me included, but it would be nice if Yamaha decided to help a bit. Videos for common operations, solving simple problems, anything really more than they do now.
Oldden

Offline Joe H

Re: Yamaha's support for the Genos
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2018, 04:36:15 PM »
That's all well and good and greatly appreciated but some actual workshops and video tutorials would be most welcome. As for actual Yamaha product support on this forum, I think I've only seen one person who identified himself thusly but never made any significant contribution. I'd be happy to be proven incorrect.

I agree... who knows Yamaha arranger keyboards better than Yamaha?  There is a LOT of opinions and misinformation being  tossed around lately on this forum.  The Genos is a beast and is a game-changer.

Joe H

Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline StuartR

Re: Yamaha's support for the Genos
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2018, 04:42:41 PM »
Hi Gary,
I agree with you completely, but if we did not have this forum what would we do. Lots of customers contacting Yamaha on their own, often with the same problem. This forum is a lifeline to many, me included, but it would be nice if Yamaha decided to help a bit. Videos for common operations, solving simple problems, anything really more than they do now.
Oldden
I know there are folks that use arranger keyboards to make a living. Gary, DonM and Pianoman come to mind. Why doesn't Yamaha ask these professionals to become product advocates and assist them in providing us some video tutorials. The only paid advocates I've seen spend their time giving demonstrations which IMHO aren't very useful once you own the arranger.

Offline Oldden

Re: Yamaha's support for the Genos
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2018, 05:37:18 PM »
Hi,
Some years ago I bought a Yamaha guitar, a Pacifica, and it came with a DVD, it gave you the basics, setting it up, simple chords and so on, which I did not need but it was there, then again I have a Gibson with DVD download,  same idea. So why not a Genos DVD, or these days a download, to do the same, plus a copy of basic Cubase, with instructions on the DVD or video for both. If the developers do not have the time there must be students or trainees learning their profession and who are working for Yamaha, it would be a good test of their abilities to make something useful
Oldden
 

Offline PWB

Re: Yamaha's support for the Genos
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2018, 05:54:17 PM »
This forum is about much more than dealing with technical queries. It is about the interaction of its members - with good humour and a genuine passion for making music. It also provides a platform for member to freely share their experiences, performances and resources to help others. It is a superb thing and I cannot praise enough Joe Waters and the other experienced musicians who have had the vision and commitment to start and maintain this site. A Big thank you from me and all the other forum members.
 
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Offline travlin-easy

Re: Yamaha's support for the Genos
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2018, 06:31:24 PM »
Keep in mind that the Genos is brand, spanking new and in time, very short time I hope, there will be instructional videos available from forum members, such as Fred, who did the video on registrations. In reality, there is very little difference in the operating system between the Genos and Tyros series of arranger keyboards and much of the old stuff applies, along with, of course, good old common sense. More often than not, a common sense approach to the roadblocks often solves the problems without the aid of Yamaha or this forum. There are far too many individuals that never look at the first page of the owners manual, let along go through it step by step and work with every feature of this amazing keyboard. If I owned a Genos, that would be the very first thing I would do, but I'm old and crazy, so that really doesn't count for much. ;)

All the best,

Gary  8)
Love Those Yammies...
 

Offline StuartR

Re: Yamaha's support for the Genos
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2018, 07:02:15 PM »
Keep in mind that the Genos is brand, spanking new and in time, very short time I hope, there will be instructional videos available from forum members, such as Fred, who did the video on registrations. In reality, there is very little difference in the operating system between the Genos and Tyros series of arranger keyboards and much of the old stuff applies, along with, of course, good old common sense. More often than not, a common sense approach to the roadblocks often solves the problems without the aid of Yamaha or this forum. There are far too many individuals that never look at the first page of the owners manual, let along go through it step by step and work with every feature of this amazing keyboard. If I owned a Genos, that would be the very first thing I would do, but I'm old and crazy, so that really doesn't count for much. ;)

All the best,

Gary  8)

While I agree with you Gary, support from the generous and talented user community doesn't diminish the value or need for Yamaha to provide the kind of sophisticated technical material that only they can provide, and have done so for their other keyboard community.

Offline Mazeka

Re: Yamaha's support for the Genos
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2018, 03:27:49 AM »
Hi,
Is there anybody from Yamaha out there at the moment reading this post and would like to comment on it ? ...............it's gone very quiet.
Oldden

I am
 

Offline Mazeka

Re: Yamaha's support for the Genos
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2018, 03:30:09 AM »
Quick question,
Though I do live in LA, this can possible happen in other areas.

How about creating a user group that meets once a month ?
 

Offline Joe H

Re: Yamaha's support for the Genos
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2018, 03:34:26 AM »
Mazeka,

What do you have in mind? Where would this happen?  At the local Yamaha dealer?

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline Mazeka

Re: Yamaha's support for the Genos
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2018, 03:42:05 AM »
Mazeka,

What do you have in mind? Where would this happen?  At the local Yamaha dealer?

Joe H
That is a possibility of course.
I also have few ideas in my mind as for location.

What do you guys think ?

In addition, it depends on the how many are in each area .

So, the more ideas you guys have about this proposal, the better too come up with a good plan.
 

Offline StuartR

Re: Yamaha's support for the Genos
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2018, 03:57:35 AM »
Quick question,
Though I do live in LA, this can possible happen in other areas.

How about creating a user group that meets once a month ?

Wouldn't this limit the interaction to just those that could physically attend? Would it not be better to just add an arrangers section to the existing Yamaha forums where users who want interaction with Yamaha could "meet".
 

Offline Mazeka

Re: Yamaha's support for the Genos
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2018, 04:11:57 AM »
Wouldn't this limit the interaction to just those that could physically attend? Would it not be better to just add an arrangers section to the existing Yamaha forums where users who want interaction with Yamaha could "meet".

I truly think this forum is a great resource and is established with many users.
So I would say, I will be poking around here  now and then, as you know I do have a full time job at Yamaha. :)

Couple of thoughts.

1- I can look into hosting a webinar type of event once a month.
2- Establish user group once a month.
3- Create a section on this forum for me. There a productive helpful posting happens. My only reservations is that I have limited time and I don't want you guys to think I am ignoring your questions. Its a bit difficult to be here 24/7.

Again, this is good

Offline frankmusik

Re: Yamaha's support for the Genos
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2018, 04:31:28 AM »
@michael
@all
All depends on market and resources...

Last decades Europe was no.1 market for Tyros & co and a lot musicians don't use a forum... nor use a PC... us market was for live music and synth...
So yamaha USA did Synth Forum , Europe did  http://forum.yamaha-europe.com ....

And ca 100 other forums built by musicians in all languages. The biggest I think psr-tutorial....

In the last 10 years a lot of Keyboard forums has gone..... also Headoffice Europe don't think too much about forums...
And most companies don't have even members login in every day in her own forums...
I am only active in 5 keyboard forums ... but a member in 20? ...

Nowadays we have a lot electronic help ... but bringing people also to ask things,the learned in 2 minutes by herself years ago :-)

Forum is good for discussion and also for help, but a lot of forums are also for show.. and people fighting for her meaning...

Greetings from Germany
Frank

PS:In Germany the workshop tours - no presentation! ---Starts this weeks to learn about Genos.... we have heidrun Dolde and manni pichler in January in pforzheim.
In Germany the ways are small... so in 2-3 Hours from Swiss and Austria to us ...
some shops make workshops with professional help... so we do 20-30 a year and Travel to Keyboard spots and meetings around Germany ...
Genos and Tyros Support in Germany - Europe with more than
160 keyboardscouts helping in D-AT-CH-NL at home!
 

Offline Dromeus

Re: Yamaha's support for the Genos
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2018, 10:51:49 AM »
@Frank: you know that I'm well aware of all the (I would say: 3rd party) activities in Germany, workshops, keyboard "scouts", DVDs, tutorial books, local user groups with monthly meetings, the "musicando" annual meeting offering a full weekend of workshops. Some of these activities are supported by Yamaha, which is great.

@all: what I had originally in mind were some in-depth technical articles how to actually use the more advanced (or new) features the Genos offers, e.g. arpeggios, live controls, DSP power (which has been massively increased), insertion effects (now we can store parameters in the registration), and so on.

Just to give a few ideas/examples; I added some references to similar articles related to MOXF/Motif/Montage, that I found really helpful.

Genos Arpeggios Explored
https://www.yamahasynth.com/blog/arpeggios-explored

Genos Guitar (Megavoice) Arpeggio Study
https://www.yamahasynth.com/resources/guitar-arpeggio-study-moxf

Genos Introducing the Effects
http://www.yamahasynth.com/blog/introducing-the-effects
http://www.motifator.com/storage/support/EFF101_MOX.pdf

Genos Effects In-Depth: The Rotary Speaker Effect
http://www.motifator.com/index.php/support/view/the_rotary_speaker_effect

Of course, it should be a whole series on "Genos Effects In-Depth". The effects power in Genos is massive!
Regards, Michael
 
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Offline Lee Batchelor

Re: Yamaha's support for the Genos
« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2018, 12:25:52 PM »
Quote
I think the short answer is because Joe Waters created this website, and also an awful lot of people (including those at Yamaha) think the arranger keyboard is an inferior instrument to the "synth" line.  People who buy arrangers want to play vintage music... and just want PLAY rather than spend their time tweaking sounds or being creative.

If this is true, I wonder why Yamaha gave us a boat load of tools with which to tweak the Genos and Tyros keyboards? I agree, we need developer level seminars like Phil provides for the Motif and Montage. What about Peter Baartmans? He undoubtedly had to spend a ton of time getting to know the Genos before designing his demos. He's not only an excellent player but he could be a great tech guy.

I wonder if Yamaha is listening?
Current Gear: Genos, SoundCraft mixer, two Bose L1 Compacts, 15 inch sub designed and built by myself, Yamaha HS8 studio monitors, Cubase 8 Artist, Steinberg UR-44.
 
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Offline Joe H

Re: Yamaha's support for the Genos
« Reply #25 on: January 04, 2018, 06:05:09 PM »
Since there is a world-wide arranger community... I would like to offer a couple of ideas on how Yamaha Corporation can support this Forum.

1.  Write "How To"articles and post them here:  https://psrtutorial.com/music/articleHome.html

If that is not acceptable to Joe Waters or Yamaha, then I would suggest:

2.  Yamaha consider starting an "All Things Arranger" Blog and maybe Joe Water would provide a link the Yamaha blog over here:  https://psrtutorial.com/links/yamaha.html

Joe H
« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 06:09:15 PM by Joe H »
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 
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Offline StuartR

Re: Yamaha's support for the Genos
« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2018, 09:20:02 PM »
@Frank: you know that I'm well aware of all the (I would say: 3rd party) activities in Germany, workshops, keyboard "scouts", DVDs, tutorial books, local user groups with monthly meetings, the "musicando" annual meeting offering a full weekend of workshops. Some of these activities are supported by Yamaha, which is great.

@all: what I had originally in mind were some in-depth technical articles how to actually use the more advanced (or new) features the Genos offers, e.g. arpeggios, live controls, DSP power (which has been massively increased), insertion effects (now we can store parameters in the registration), and so on.

Just to give a few ideas/examples; I added some references to similar articles related to MOXF/Motif/Montage, that I found really helpful.

Genos Arpeggios Explored
https://www.yamahasynth.com/blog/arpeggios-explored

Genos Guitar (Megavoice) Arpeggio Study
https://www.yamahasynth.com/resources/guitar-arpeggio-study-moxf

Genos Introducing the Effects
http://www.yamahasynth.com/blog/introducing-the-effects
http://www.motifator.com/storage/support/EFF101_MOX.pdf

Genos Effects In-Depth: The Rotary Speaker Effect
http://www.motifator.com/index.php/support/view/the_rotary_speaker_effect

Of course, it should be a whole series on "Genos Effects In-Depth". The effects power in Genos is massive!

Excellent. Those of you who think Yamaha arranger owners already have all they need from Yamaha go take a look at what they provide their synth owners (links above). It's night and day from what we get, art least here in North America. I think I've seen two or maybe three demonstrations given at US based music stores. They are of little or no value once you own the product. We need some video tutorials/workshops.

If you don't ask, you often don't receive. So I'm asking!😁

Offline Joe H

Re: Yamaha's support for the Genos
« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2018, 10:34:24 PM »
Dromeus,

Many on this Forum are well aware of the Motif support.  I've even converted a couple of those on-line tutorials to PDF and posted them last year on this forum.

I think we all agree Yamaha should provide similar support to the arranger community.

 :)

Regards,
Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline Lee Batchelor

Re: Yamaha's support for the Genos
« Reply #28 on: January 05, 2018, 12:17:59 AM »
I vote that we create our own instructional videos and send Yamaha the bill. Can we agree that $300 (Canadian) per hour for development time should suffice? We may find it a bit of a challenge to collect but I'd still send them an invoice. There are enough brilliant minds on this forum that we can do that ;D.

Seriously, it's time Yamaha woke up and realized that the machines they've created satisfy TWO types of players: the home player and the stage player. Both types deserve advanced level instruction. I'd bet my entire net worth that even the "sit at home and turn the Genos on once in a while just to play a few tunes to warm my heart" types occasionally venture into the depths of EQ, Effects, and even style creation. When Yamaha does not create these videos, they are prejudging that audience. Bad move!! Every stage player here started out as a home player.

Yamaha should not underestimate any Genos user's knowledge level. After all, when even the most basic player finds an advanced level task that seems to come easy to him or her, they are delighted with their new find. Their playing level moves up a notch or two as well.

I play professionally, but I have an undying respect for those who invest the big money in an arranger just to sit and play at home. Hats off to you folks  ;). You and us pro stage players all deserve advanced level instruction. If you choose to stay at a very basic level, that should be your choice, not the company whose bills you pay!!!
Current Gear: Genos, SoundCraft mixer, two Bose L1 Compacts, 15 inch sub designed and built by myself, Yamaha HS8 studio monitors, Cubase 8 Artist, Steinberg UR-44.
 

Offline Joe H

Re: Yamaha's support for the Genos
« Reply #29 on: January 05, 2018, 01:58:39 AM »
Lee,

Lets not give Yamaha the impression that we only want support for the Genos... there are many other models of arranger keyboards, and essentially operate the same way using the same concepts and internal architecture.

 ;)

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline travlin-easy

Re: Yamaha's support for the Genos
« Reply #30 on: January 05, 2018, 02:01:39 AM »
Lee, I have been on stage for more than 3 decades, and the last two decades were 7 days a week. I never needed a video to learn how to use any of the dozen or more arranger keyboards I have owned, including Korg, Roland and Yamaha. All it took was a common sense approach and sitting down with the user manual next to the keyboard and thoroughly going through all the keyboard's features. In nearly every instance, that took about two months, but sometimes longer. As I have stated many times in the past, the vast majority of users, especially professional entertainers, rarely take the manual out of the zip-lock bag, let alone go through it. Videos would not be removed from their jackets, either, and I'm pretty sure this would be the case.

There is a reason that so many people ask so many questions on this forum every day of the week - they never looked in the manual. Fortunately, there are people here who can usually come up with the correct answer in short order. I used to point out the page in the user manual that provided detailed instructions, but it didn't seem to do any good, and some members seemed to get upset that I had the audacity to tell them where to find the information.

Videos, those that are professionally engineered, cost a fortune to produce. I have a friend that produces the music for TV commercials, and a finished 30 second music cut nets him an average of $5,000. Imagine what it would cost for a video that covered every aspect of the Genos, Tyros, or any PSR arranger keyboard. All that information could not be covered in less than 3 hours, and that's if everything was storyboarded and professionally produced. Keep in mind that the demo videos produced by Yamaha just barely skim the surface of what the keyboard is capable of doing. Imagine showing all the features in Real Time on a video.

years ago, when I worked in TV production, I had to shoot and edit 3 30 minute TV shows a week. Those 3 shows took an average of 18 to 20 hours to put together after they were taped, and they were not technical programs - just local color stuff. A 3 hour video on the Genos, or any other Yamaha Arranger Keyboard, would take several months to put together, and by the time it was finished, a new model would be coming out.

All the best,

Gary :cool:
« Last Edit: January 05, 2018, 02:05:36 AM by travlin-easy »
Love Those Yammies...
 

Offline StuartR

Re: Yamaha's support for the Genos
« Reply #31 on: January 05, 2018, 05:03:53 AM »
I vote that we create our own instructional videos and send Yamaha the bill. Can we agree that $300 (Canadian) per hour for development time should suffice? We may find it a bit of a challenge to collect but I'd still send them an invoice. There are enough brilliant minds on this forum that we can do that ;D.

Seriously, it's time Yamaha woke up and realized that the machines they've created satisfy TWO types of players: the home player and the stage player. Both types deserve advanced level instruction. I'd bet my entire net worth that even the "sit at home and turn the Genos on once in a while just to play a few tunes to warm my heart" types occasionally venture into the depths of EQ, Effects, and even style creation. When Yamaha does not create these videos, they are prejudging that audience. Bad move!! Every stage player here started out as a home player.

Yamaha should not underestimate any Genos user's knowledge level. After all, when even the most basic player finds an advanced level task that seems to come easy to him or her, they are delighted with their new find. Their playing level moves up a notch or two as well.

I play professionally, but I have an undying respect for those who invest the big money in an arranger just to sit and play at home. Hats off to you folks  ;). You and us pro stage players all deserve advanced level instruction. If you choose to stay at a very basic level, that should be your choice, not the company whose bills you pay!!!

Despite all the naysayers, I agree wholeheartedly with you Lee.
 

Offline frankmusik

Re: Yamaha's support for the Genos
« Reply #32 on: January 05, 2018, 06:14:46 AM »
You are all right, but actually I don't see the resources at yamaha and there wish to do, hopefully they understand....

They sell tons of keys without that... and you are the supporters ....
Yamaha Europe also send customers and dealers - not only Germans - with problems to me...
And I am also not on Yamaha's payroll!!!

Genos Fever was in me from Berlin but I was to active for Y :-) some of you read my threads before I delete them...

Genos is for new markets - customers and countries... and the support out of Europe  also from dealers is behind, it takes time and I hope yamaha take money to optimize support...but first is costs and necessary.... it works fine for them till now without.. because of all the free supporters...

And one thing. I have also customers in 2018 just play her keyboard... use styles reg live, don't use a memory button nor a midifile and perform on stage :-) AND are happy with the sound!
Don't forget the keyboards can used to play, take a style a ots and play...
I know searching for THE SOUND is a LOOOOOOOOONG way but last decades we sold the searchers synth :-)  yamaha want to add the searchers also to Genos so we l see what happen....


Greetings from Germany
Frank


@michael most activities you wrote are driven by private!!!! No heidrun =no musicando ...
Genos and Tyros Support in Germany - Europe with more than
160 keyboardscouts helping in D-AT-CH-NL at home!
 

Offline Oldden

Re: Yamaha's support for the Genos
« Reply #33 on: January 05, 2018, 09:56:50 AM »
Hi,
Perhaps in time there will be other sources of information besides Yamaha. How about a Genos for Dummies book, or a course developed by Lynda. If you want to learn the guitar there are hundred of free videos on YouTube, most with books and DVDs to buy to supplement the videos. I think if there is any money to be made, then somewhere, someone will find a way to do it.

My late Wife was a far better player than me, but she would never dream of reading a manual. But she would stand behind me whilst I was playing, nudge me off my stool, and do it far better. That was just her was of learning, there must many others who learn in there own personal way, just need some help.
Oldden
 

Offline Lee Batchelor

Re: Yamaha's support for the Genos
« Reply #34 on: January 05, 2018, 12:56:37 PM »
All good points, folks - especially yours Gary.

I guess my points can be refined down a bit. For the basic stuff, you can look it up in the manual. For the advanced stuff, produce a downloadable video - nothing fancy - just "point and shoot" as my late dad would say (motion picture cameraman, DP, videographer). I bought an online, two hour instructional video from Yamaha with Phil Clendeninn showing the basics and some advanced features of the MOX8 synth. I found it very helpful. Price $29.95 (CDN). I'd pay that again for a similar video about advanced Genos features.

Of course, one cannot discount the very helpful minds on this forum who figure out how to do something that the manual doesn't spell out very well, and who are willing to share their step by step knowledge. That is after all, the whole point of this forum :).
Current Gear: Genos, SoundCraft mixer, two Bose L1 Compacts, 15 inch sub designed and built by myself, Yamaha HS8 studio monitors, Cubase 8 Artist, Steinberg UR-44.
 
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Offline StuartR

Re: Yamaha's support for the Genos
« Reply #35 on: January 05, 2018, 01:29:11 PM »
I bought an online, two hour instructional video from Yamaha with Phil Clendeninn showing the basics and some advanced features of the MOX8 synth. I found it very helpful. Price $29.95 (CDN). I'd pay that again for a similar video about advanced Genos features.

Me too.
 

Offline Dromeus

Re: Yamaha's support for the Genos
« Reply #36 on: January 05, 2018, 02:38:37 PM »
Regards, Michael
 
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Offline keynote

Re: Yamaha's support for the Genos
« Reply #37 on: January 05, 2018, 04:51:15 PM »
Doing a variety of videos on Youtube would be more convenient and it would be able to reach more people. Doing a DVD or two would also be a nice gesture. We have a lot invested in our Genos and it would be nice if Yamaha invested back into the community.  8)

Mike
 
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Offline StuartR

Re: Yamaha's support for the Genos
« Reply #38 on: January 05, 2018, 07:03:15 PM »
Doing a variety of videos on Youtube would be more convenient and it would be able to reach more people. Doing a DVD or two would also be a nice gesture. We have a lot invested in our Genos and it would be nice if Yamaha invested back into the community.  8)

Mike
Absolutely. Just as they do for some of their other complex musical gear.
 

Offline Lee Batchelor

Re: Yamaha's support for the Genos
« Reply #39 on: January 05, 2018, 07:15:31 PM »
Agreed guys. I'm sure Peter Baartmans doesn't work for free. If they can pay him, they can afford to produce a series of short videos. We don't need an epic level production filled with special effects. Just have a guy or gal sit in a corner at Yamaha, mount the camera, turn it on, and go. Forget the editing, makeup, lighting, and other costly stuff. We just need raw knowledge.

Current Gear: Genos, SoundCraft mixer, two Bose L1 Compacts, 15 inch sub designed and built by myself, Yamaha HS8 studio monitors, Cubase 8 Artist, Steinberg UR-44.
 

Offline frankmusik

Re: Yamaha's support for the Genos
« Reply #40 on: January 05, 2018, 08:35:02 PM »
We talk about a keyboard not yet 2 month on earth... :-)
There will be videos and stuff a lot... it just takes time.
And yamaha never did this.... always 3rd parties.....

Frank
« Last Edit: January 05, 2018, 08:57:49 PM by frankmusik »
Genos and Tyros Support in Germany - Europe with more than
160 keyboardscouts helping in D-AT-CH-NL at home!
 

Offline Lee Batchelor

Re: Yamaha's support for the Genos
« Reply #41 on: January 05, 2018, 09:11:50 PM »
Good point, Frank. Microsoft Help is pathetic because they know third party people will gladly post their knowledge about how to deal with all the Windows and MS Office annoyances.
Current Gear: Genos, SoundCraft mixer, two Bose L1 Compacts, 15 inch sub designed and built by myself, Yamaha HS8 studio monitors, Cubase 8 Artist, Steinberg UR-44.
 

Jean Abdou

  • Guest
Re: Yamaha's support for the Genos
« Reply #42 on: January 05, 2018, 09:37:09 PM »
...
Browsing this site you will find a wealth of useful information, tutorials and a forum that is not only run by Yamaha, but where real Yamaha experts (e.g. "Bad Mister" Phil Clendeninn) do answer questions in a concise and in-depth manner and share their excellent technical knowledge.
...
Why can't Yamaha arranger users have the same level of support?
...

First of all, I second that Phil is doing an amazing job there at yamahasynth.com almost single-handedly and I have learned a lot from this man. So I hold a lot of respect for him.

Second, have you ever happened to own a MOTIF series keyboard or Montage? If there are some functionalities in Tyros or PSR series that do not exist in the booklet and the documentation, there are many that do not exist in the documentation for the MOTIF/Montage series. Tyros and Genos when it comes to making things from the scratch, communicating with other synthesizers and DAW and ... are probably half of what MOTIF and MONTAGE are.

The arpeggio system is just an example which is mentioned here. The amount of background/non-music-related knowledge necessary to operate MOTIF and Montage at their best, is more than what you need to use a Tyros/Genos.

That's why!
« Last Edit: January 05, 2018, 09:38:54 PM by Jean Abdou »
 

Offline Lee Batchelor

Re: Yamaha's support for the Genos
« Reply #43 on: January 05, 2018, 11:10:19 PM »
Jean, my training as a technical writer tells me that if a product does A,B, and C, the documentation must describe A, B, and C. No excuses.......

Large companies are notorious for skimping on proper documentation. Yamaha's manuals are generally pretty darn good - better than a lot of others. All we ask is that some of the more sophisticated processes be properly documented. The only data that can be morally omitted are the tasks that even the developers didn't consider possible but that a user found. The developers are off the hook for those.
Current Gear: Genos, SoundCraft mixer, two Bose L1 Compacts, 15 inch sub designed and built by myself, Yamaha HS8 studio monitors, Cubase 8 Artist, Steinberg UR-44.
 

Offline panos

Re: Yamaha's support for the Genos
« Reply #44 on: January 05, 2018, 11:17:10 PM »
Thanks for the information.
I would never buy something by the montage or motif series then.
Unfortunatly  I do not own a degree in engineering :(
If it is so hard to do videos on youtube to sell your product then why people like this guy sell allready Expansion Pack for Genos  and he explains how the instrument produces these sounds? 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XIP_Xr30GA&t=451s

All we read is that a Genos can do this or that but no official videos to explain anything
so, all we have to do is wait from the users to upload their videos after they find out by themselves how the keyboard works.

I guess the manual's help is nothing more than the typical:
"use right 1 & 2 voice for your right hand and left part for your left hand"  :o
« Last Edit: January 05, 2018, 11:18:15 PM by panos »
 

Offline travlin-easy

Re: Yamaha's support for the Genos
« Reply #45 on: January 05, 2018, 11:59:42 PM »
Having read some of the Genos Manual and most all of the PSR and Tyros manuals, I can tell you that there is a wealth of information in every one of them. Early on, Yamaha's manuals were poorly written, and I had some lengthy conversations with them about this very subject. Since then, they have gone into far more detail in the user manuals, and better indexing of subject material, thereby making it much easier to find certain features and how they function.

All the best,

Gary 8)
Love Those Yammies...
 

Offline valimaties

Re: Yamaha's support for the Genos
« Reply #46 on: January 06, 2018, 12:18:00 AM »
Thanks for the information.
I would never buy something by the montage or motif series then.
Unfortunatly  I do not own a degree in engineering :(
If it is so hard to do videos on youtube to sell your product then why people like this guy sell allready Expansion Pack for Genos  and he explains how the instrument produces these sounds? 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XIP_Xr30GA&t=451s

All we read is that a Genos can do this or that but no official videos to explain anything
so, all we have to do is wait from the users to upload their videos after they find out by themselves how the keyboard works.


Brands (Yamaha, Korg, Roland, etc) (as I know) does not makes videos to show you how a feature works, detailed. There are small pieces of videos (like Yamaha did, mostly on Genos) to show some new features how works, but they are generally speaking, no like a tutorial. No brand make tutorials :D They add owner and reference manuals on keyboard's download page. You have to read them, there are a lot of useful information in both manuals (more on the reference manual, is more detailed).
I don't blame Yamaha that doesn't made tutorial videos. And I never will do that! I don't think it is a reasonable demand!


I guess the manual's help is nothing more than the typical:
"use right 1 & 2 voice for your right hand and left part for your left hand"  :o

If you tell us you guess, so you didn't even search in manual for some info. This is not a good approach.
PS: You don't need a "engineer degree" to read a manual, or at least a section you need to know. ;) Read and try. You have it (the keyboard), there are some guys that does not have it yet!

Regards,
Vali
______________________________________________
All the best, from Romania

Vali Maties - Genos
 

Offline Joe H

Re: Yamaha's support for the Genos
« Reply #47 on: January 06, 2018, 12:26:20 AM »
First of all, I second that Phil is doing an amazing job there at yamahasynth.com almost single-handedly and I have learned a lot from this man. So I hold a lot of respect for him.

Second, have you ever happened to own a MOTIF series keyboard or Montage? If there are some functionalities in Tyros or PSR series that do not exist in the booklet and the documentation, there are many that do not exist in the documentation for the MOTIF/Montage series. Tyros and Genos when it comes to making things from the scratch, communicating with other synthesizers and DAW and ... are probably half of what MOTIF and MONTAGE are.

The arpeggio system is just an example which is mentioned here. The amount of background/non-music-related knowledge necessary to operate MOTIF and Montage at their best, is more than what you need to use a Tyros/Genos.

That's why!

Well I respectfully disagree with most of you have said.  I think the arranger keyboard is superior to Yamaha synths for creating music from scratch and/or arranging... it is easier to do because of the architecture.

As far as Phil goes... I have had a totally different experience with him and his "Power User" guides are rather simplistic to say the least.

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline XeeniX

Re: Yamaha's support for the Genos
« Reply #48 on: January 06, 2018, 12:32:02 AM »
Having read some of the Genos Manual and most all of the PSR and Tyros manuals, I can tell you that there is a wealth of information in every one of them. Early on, Yamaha's manuals were poorly written, and I had some lengthy conversations with them about this very subject. Since then, they have gone into far more detail in the user manuals, and better indexing of subject material, thereby making it much easier to find certain features and how they function.

All the best,

Gary 8)

Uh, not to rattle cages but certain features Gary ... Yes. Quite a few others.... No.

To name an example:
They push the the style creator feature forward as a plus. They do the same with the voice and song creator. But to my knowledge (and please correct me if I am wrong because I missed it) never went any further than a very brief explanation that they exist. Or a guy showing somewhere it was possible to use these to your advantage and to broaden your world while being at your new keyboard. Surely not how it was done.

These are however three features that didn't change all that much in all the decades they already exist.  I realize that for quite a few of us these specific features are rocket science and not interesting enough. After all you buy a keyboard (hopefully) in the first place to play but still... I saw quite a few posts in the few years that I am on board with PSR tutorial that suggest a need for a little more explanation besides the information the awesome volunteers on this forum are willing and capable to give. If they expect arranger users to be not that bright, not that inventive, not interested than why build in  these features in the arranger in the first place?

regards,
Peter
« Last Edit: January 06, 2018, 12:35:45 AM by XeeniX »
 

Offline Joe H

Re: Yamaha's support for the Genos
« Reply #49 on: January 06, 2018, 12:38:11 AM »
Peter,

I think in-depth editing would require computer-based software.  And since there is third-party software (free and commercial) could be that there is no incentive for Yamaha to produce any of its own.

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html