Author Topic: Extremely Disappointed with Genos  (Read 11300 times)

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Offline Oldden

Re: Extremely Disappointed with Genos
« Reply #50 on: December 28, 2017, 03:34:01 AM »
Hi Pianoman,
I am wondering if it's all getting a bit too personal towards the original poster. We all have our own views on life and it's only my own opinion of course but I hope that this user group will always be friendly to, and respect each other's views.
Oldden
 

Offline DavidB

Re: Extremely Disappointed with Genos
« Reply #51 on: December 28, 2017, 03:46:36 AM »
I must be too thick skinned. I'm not taking anything personally, and I hope no one else is. I just started a thread to try and explain why I am extremely disappointed with Genos. I expected it to be a little controversial in a Genos forum, but I've actually been surprised by the replies seeing things from my perspective.

I think the forums friendliness is intact :)
Just don't mention Genos USB drive letter assignments :)
 

Offline keynote

Re: Extremely Disappointed with Genos
« Reply #52 on: December 28, 2017, 05:22:33 AM »
David, before you decide to sell your Genos I just wanted to post a couple more demos for you to listen to. The first demo is once again the Genos CFX concert grand piano vs. a real Yamaha CFX grand piano recorded at a famous studio in Germany although it's a rather short demo. And the second is actually a video and review of the Genos keyboard by a popular keyboardist from the U.K. demonstrated at Bonner's Music. The first link and demo is in .wav format so as to demonstrate the best quality of sound. The second link and video review is over 200 MB in size. I'm not sure if you're on a metered connection or not but I wanted to put it out there to give you a chance to see and hear the features and sounds of the Genos at length. Enjoy!

Genos CFX piano vs. Yamaha real CFX piano

Yamaha Genos keyboard review

Mike

Offline DavidB

Re: Extremely Disappointed with Genos
« Reply #53 on: December 28, 2017, 05:33:31 AM »
Hi Dave,

I am sure you will love playing the Roland Atelier Series organ.

Have you seen or played any Yamaha Electone Stagea ELS-02C organ in your area?  Yamaha Electone organs are very popular in Asia, but I have not seen any of them in the U.S.  I watched a over-4-million-viewed Youtube video of a young Japanese girl playing "Star Wars" theme song on a Yamaha Stagea organ and thought that the sounds are quite convincing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yp5HpjhKHKs

How do you feel about the sounds compared to the Roland Atelier 800?

Thanks,
Paul

Hi Paul,

Didn't mean to ignore this.

She is very good, but I'm not sure those organs are available in Europe.

I can well imagine someone doing a very similar rendition on an Atelier.

One of the things I really like about the Atelier is the nearly 6 octave lower manual which is missing from many other organs I've seen.

Regards,
Just don't mention Genos USB drive letter assignments :)
 

Offline DavidB

Re: Extremely Disappointed with Genos
« Reply #54 on: December 28, 2017, 05:44:30 AM »
David, before you decide to sell your Genos I just wanted to post a couple more demos for you to listen to. The first demo is once again the Genos CFX concert grand piano vs. a real Yamaha CFX grand piano recorded at a famous studio in Germany although it's a rather short demo. And the second is actually a video and review of the Genos keyboard by a popular keyboardist from the U.K. demonstrated at Bonner's Music. The first link and demo is in .wav format so as to demonstrate the best quality of sound. The second link and video review is over 200 MB in size. I'm not sure if you're on a metered connection or not but I wanted to put it out there to give you a chance to see and hear the features and sounds of the Genos at length. Enjoy!

Genos CFX piano vs. Yamaha real CFX piano

Yamaha Genos keyboard review

Mike

Much appreciated Mike and I must admit they're very convincing. Neither however are being played through the Genos speakers. I've said all along that with a much more expensive sound system and with appropriate equaliser settings etc. the sound can be improved massively and this is the proof of that. I'm afraid though that it doesn't diminish my disappointment because to reproduce those sounds for myself I would have to spend at least £1,000 more if not £2,000. I don't believe it's fair anyone should have to do that.

Thank you though, as I say, they are very convincing. The first demo actually made me wonder if it really was a Genos. Amazing what a professional studio can achieve.

Bandwidth is no issue... 200mbs, unmetered :)

Thanks,

PS. I will most likely sell my Genos for the right price, but my plan at the moment involves keeping it while I try an Atelier. That way I can still choose.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2017, 05:56:35 AM by DavidB »
Just don't mention Genos USB drive letter assignments :)
 

Offline Will49

Re: Extremely Disappointed with Genos
« Reply #55 on: December 28, 2017, 06:00:04 AM »
David b
This is just my personal opinion :
Home organs are a dying breed, they were superseded by the arranger workstations,
decades ago.
I doubt that the roland Organ will keep you happy "Longterm".
its had its day.
Vanray, The above remarks about home organs are, as you put it, your “personal opinion”, and you are obviously entitled to that. However, one of the reasons that you perceive them as a “dying breed” is the fact that they became so hugely expensive. The other reason came about following the advancements in electronics which meant that things could be miniaturised and put into smaller and smaller cabinets. Until, eventually, they became so small and light that they could be picked up and carried around under one arm… enter the ‘portable keyboard’! This was obviously a godsend to gigging musicians, who previously (with the help of assistants and a fairly large van!) hauled big organs around… and sometimes, separate Leslie cabinets as well!

However, as a non-gigging person, I strongly defend the whole concept of the home organ. Firstly, they are the very thing that got me interested in playing music in the first place. Secondly, there is something about them that is difficult to explain. There is that unmistakable warmth/depth to their sound… perhaps it’s something to do with their speaker system, or the cabinet? I think Pianoman’s analogy of a V8 muscle car vs a small-engined car is an excellent comparison! You only have to watch a few YouTube videos of the likes of Claudia Hirschfeld playing the Wersi Louvre, and also Chris Hopkins… who now has the ex-Blackpool Tower Ballroom’s Wersi Louvre at home. And in terms of appearance, being so much larger and having two or three manuals and a pedal board, home organs simply look more impressive. They seem to exude a certain aura of grandeur that many people are proud to show off in their homes - whilst the portable keyboard, on the other hand, is considered a mere toy by comparison. I fully understand and support DavidB’s desire to go for a Roland Atelier AT-800. Like I said in my earlier comment, if I won the Lottery, a top of the range home organ would be high on my shopping list too!

To DavidB: If/when you do finally decide on having a Roland AT-800, then I’m sure you will be very happy with it, and I wish you many years of enjoyment with such a magnificent instrument! :)

Regards,
Will

Offline mikf

Re: Extremely Disappointed with Genos
« Reply #56 on: December 28, 2017, 07:01:27 AM »
In response to a previous post - hiding the pianos from the listener to see if they can distinguish would not tell the whole story. Maybe you blindfold the player and see if they can distinguish, because Depends on many other factors like what they play, how they play etc. And then there is what the player feels, and that is not just keyboard response, but also sound response. Good players adjust what they play automatically depending on the sound feedback. And  sample is not just about basic tone and pitch, which is relatively easy to get right.
Think of sustain for example, if you sustain a note on a quality grand, you might still hear it twenty seconds or more later. Think of the sample size to not just capture that but to factor in variable decay rates and harmonics depending on how hard you hit it in the first place, which particular note it is (string lengths matter) then multiply by every note on the keyboard, some of which may be played simultaneously over the decay, with harmonic interactions - and you start to understand why piano is so hard and expensive to duplicate electronically. I think the better electronic instruments get tone close. But all the other nuances - not close.
Mike

Re: Extremely Disappointed with Genos
« Reply #57 on: December 28, 2017, 07:18:16 AM »
Hello David. I am new to this forum.  I feel compelled to write to you (only my second post) because I empathize and sympathize with you and can feel your pain because I have been there myself.  In fact your your criticism of the Genos piano sound quality is what kept me from purchasing all previous generations of Tyros.  This has also kept me from enjoying the fun and unique entertaining experience of playing on the fly OMB performances.  With every release of the Tyros, I did not keep one for myself because the piano sounds seemed too thin, not rich and full bodied. I finally bought a Korg Kronos to satisfy my piano (and synth) desire and am totally happy with it.  I was still missing an arranger.   So I finally did buy the Genos recently because it sounded better to me than the Tyros series, including the pianos, however, the pianos still are not as good as can be gotten from some other digital keyboards, as you well know. So, to beef up my piano sound on the Genos, I am blending several piano voices together to get something closer to what I am looking for.  For example, layering the CFX Concert Grand, C7 Warm Grand, and Upright Piano, with the volume raised more for the C7 Warm Grand, gets me to a more acceptable sound, good enough to enjoy playing just on the Genos.  However, when my piano quality needs to be more pure and strong, I play my Korg Kronos audio, all octaves through the Genos, plus midi couple it with the Genos to get the best of both worlds, better piano, rhythms, and sweet Genos articulation voices. If you haven't already experimented with combining piano voices within the Genos, I would suggest layering your favorite piano voices together, mixing their prominence, EQ and effects and you might be able to come up with something better than you've heard so far.  Or you might not.  My other thought is that you appear to be very firm in only using the Genos speakers. I use the Yamaha HS8 speakers which can be had for $699USD minus holiday sales currently going on for minus 15-20% off online.  I don't think that is expensive relative to the cost of the Genos. Maybe it's better to use better speakers than throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I have heard some Tyros users say they prefer the sound of other speakers over the stock ones. I don't think they have to cost an arm and a leg. You could take your Genos to the local music store and hook it up to audition.  Finally, since, you may have bought your keyboard somewhat close to Christmas Holiday, doesn't your music supplier have a return policy, for example, if you received it as a gift? Ultimately you should not be stuck with, or persuaded to keep an instrument that does not make you happy.  So David, this was just a review of some options that you may or may not have considered. As many on this thread have acknowledged, you deserve to "have it your way."   Best of luck. Happy New Year.  Hal
Genos and Korg Kronos 88
My Music Channel: https://www.youtube.com/Halunlimited
 

Offline travlin-easy

Re: Extremely Disappointed with Genos
« Reply #58 on: December 28, 2017, 07:59:03 AM »
Gentlemen, and ladies, please try to maintain some semblance of civility when posting. This thread is primarily one person's opinion about the Genos and his opinion is to be respected. The only reason I posted anything at all was an attempt to provide some technical assistance and not to contradict his likes or dislikes, or to sway his opinion.

If David feels certain Genos voices don't sound the way he wishes, and the solutions offered by others will suffice, then it is up to David to determine what he wishes to do. There is no reason to kill the thread unless it becomes negative or combative. If and when it does, one of the moderators will take the time to consult all the other moderators about the thread and what is to be done with it.

This site exists for the sole purpose of providing Yamaha arranger keyboard owners and users with assistance with their Yamaha keyboards, and in doing so, providing assistance both from a technical standpoint and a personal, first-hand, user standpoint. If for some reason you don't like the results you have obtained, feel free to post YOUR OPINION of this, and many of the good folks on this forum will do their best to assist you in obtaining your goals.

As stated many times, music is very subjective, and there are no absolute rights or wrongs - just individual opinions.

Have a Happy New Year,

Gary 8)
 
Love Those Yammies...
 
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Offline tyrosman

Re: Extremely Disappointed with Genos
« Reply #59 on: December 28, 2017, 08:39:11 AM »
hi David i dont think you have spent enough time with it ive played it and im getting it in April ive had all the Tyros Keyboards . and all the Big Yamaha organs from the C 55 the D 65 the FS 30 and Hx1 the Organs are good but when you think of it the Keyboards are Fantastic Have a look at Bemore Organs all the best i hope you get what you want in the end :)
Genos
 

Online DonM

Re: Extremely Disappointed with Genos
« Reply #60 on: December 28, 2017, 10:14:23 AM »
I had a Yamaha FS500, my last organ.  If I had to transport it, I wouldn't trade a used Casio for it now!  Not because it didn't sound great--it was fantastic.  But Lord what a beast to move.  I had it, a Leslie, huge P.A. system, dollies which weighed a lot in their own right, etc.
I remember making a road trip and having trouble getting everything in a full-size Chevy van! 
It would be fun to have one at home I suppose, but I probably would opt for an arranger anyway, because of the joystick, the USB, the touch screen, the vocal processor, the midi-MP3-Wave player and recorder, the sequencer, the editing, the foot controllers, the programmable sliders...etc.
Also the  FS500 had a sorry excuse for a piano sound, and virtually no decent guitars, no break/fills, no multiple intros and endings, no four variations, the drums were awful...I could go on and on about the improvements that show up in even middle of the line arrangers.
The organ did have a neat little third keyboard, but that is easily achieved by just attaching one via midi if needed.
You also had to deal with proprietary memory packs, but we were glad to have them because before that there was NO external memory. 
Yes, organs were fine for pros back in the day, but once arrangers were invented, I never looked back, and  SAVED my own back at the same time!  :)
Sorry for rambling...not even relative to the original post.  I will sentence myself to an hour away from the forums.  It's lunch time anyway!  :)
« Last Edit: December 28, 2017, 10:15:40 AM by DonM »
DonM
 

Offline travlin-easy

Re: Extremely Disappointed with Genos
« Reply #61 on: December 28, 2017, 10:38:42 AM »
Lunch time - you must get to bed a lot earlier than I do! Lunch in about 10 minutes for me, 2 p.m.. ;)

All the best,

Gary 8)
Love Those Yammies...
 

Online DonM

Re: Extremely Disappointed with Genos
« Reply #62 on: December 28, 2017, 10:40:30 AM »
Lunch time - you must get to bed a lot earlier than I do! Lunch in about 10 minutes for me, 2 p.m.. ;)

All the best,

Gary 8)

More like Brunch.  You are an hour ahead, but Susan made sausage balls this morning and I've been nibbling on them, while on my second cup of coffee.  Too cold for golf or fishing, or I wouldn't be here causing trouble!

Offline travlin-easy

Re: Extremely Disappointed with Genos
« Reply #63 on: December 28, 2017, 10:48:29 AM »
I got to bed about 1:15 a.m., then read a couple chapters of my latest Sheriff Bo Tully mystery book. Went to sleep about 2:20 and rolled out of bed at 9:30. I planned on not doing much all day today, and it seems like I'm right on schedule. ;)

Happy New Year, old friend,

Gary  8)
Love Those Yammies...
 

Offline Paula

Re: Extremely Disappointed with Genos
« Reply #64 on: December 28, 2017, 11:28:15 AM »
 :) :)
 the Genos sounds like it is a good key board ,I wouldn't want to go through the setting it up, I am sick and tired of tweeking
equipment :)Fred said his text files didn't fit in screen that alone would keep me from changing key boards ;D I will keep what I got  unless they come out with one that I dont have to  tweek and change settings to !!!!
        Paula :)



You Tube
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1xEYzY5g_0Nd5G9TkMY6mA/videos
Tyros 4 and Bose L1 Mod 2 w/tonematch
PSR S970
 

Offline travlin-easy

Re: Extremely Disappointed with Genos
« Reply #65 on: December 28, 2017, 12:22:58 PM »
Paula, unfortunately, all arranger keyboards made during the past 30 years have needed some sort of tweaking and tuning in order to get them to sound right on stage. Same holds true for most sound systems and vocal processors as well. This is because everyone's hearing is subjective, just as music is, therefore, there is no right or wrong with these things. I have owned more than a dozen arranger keyboards of all makes in 3 plus decades of performing, and never had one that didn't require some tuning.

Happy New Year,

Gary  8)
Love Those Yammies...
 

Offline svpworld

Re: Extremely Disappointed with Genos
« Reply #66 on: December 28, 2017, 12:42:02 PM »
I've owned many top instruments from Korg, Yamaha, Roland, Nord.  Through a good speaker/sound system I can honestly say the Genos blows other boards out of the water, the sound quality is stunning.  I use Yamaha HS7 active monitors and they really do make the Genos shine.  I remember though the similar tyros speaker system when I had my Tyros 2, it never did justice to the instrument although I have to commend it on its compactness.  I am very surprised though that you feel the Genos isn't up to sonic quality compared to your Tyros, I'm guessing as others have said you are fond of a particular 'sound' that you've become accustomed to with the Tyros.  Personally I cannot imagine how  you could improve the sound quality of Genos, by the way I am a UK owner and like yourself I have had a range of instruments including double manual organs. I've also had a Kronos and the Montage from Yamaha, I can honestly say the Genos is up there with the top end instruments!   Anyway just wanted to add to the conversation, I can see there has been quite some activity on this thread and I would be very interested in knowing how you get on with the Roland instrument.   

Kind regards
Simon

Offline Paula

Re: Extremely Disappointed with Genos
« Reply #67 on: December 28, 2017, 12:51:42 PM »
 :) :)
 Hi Gary
 and that is exactly why I am keeping my Psr 970 and Tyros 4 ...I have had a few key boards as well beginning with the Technics  and then Korgs  I am sticking with what I have now, good enough they are all tweeked and when I set up a new song again I tweek  the styles and set up new ,I just do not want to start over to do all I have now no no no!!! really the psr 970 read the reg. well with murrys program very well ,how great to have him on this forum!!! I needed to change the peddles as all are set up different in the reg but that wasn't to much for me T4 and psr 970 it works fine, I am sticking to them they work fine and sound good at least my audience thinks they do
       Paula :)
« Last Edit: December 28, 2017, 01:08:57 PM by Paula »
You Tube
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1xEYzY5g_0Nd5G9TkMY6mA/videos
Tyros 4 and Bose L1 Mod 2 w/tonematch
PSR S970
 

Offline Paula

Re: Extremely Disappointed with Genos
« Reply #68 on: December 28, 2017, 01:12:15 PM »
 :) :)
I have not heard the Genos live !!! I am sure it is a great key board as so many have spoken highly of it I am also just to poor to have one
    Poor Paula :) :) :)
You Tube
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1xEYzY5g_0Nd5G9TkMY6mA/videos
Tyros 4 and Bose L1 Mod 2 w/tonematch
PSR S970
 

Offline XeeniX

Re: Extremely Disappointed with Genos
« Reply #69 on: December 28, 2017, 01:40:54 PM »
Hi,
Perhaps a little off topic but since there are a few dedicated piano players watching this topic and since the topic is about disapointing piano samples on certain Yamaha instruments (or not depending on the listener). How does the new CSP 150/170 sound? Does anyone has first hand experience with them yet? Lately I'm drawn more and more into piano playing. I do like to play with accompanied by a few styles every once in a while though. That is mainly due to the fact that I have more and more problems to "orientate" as in get a hold of where exactly my fingers are on the keyboard itself.

I know "muscle memory" in other words practise, practise, practise is the only solution but until that starts to kick in (old fox and such). With piano play I can sneak in some moments to "rest" while trying to figure out where I left my fingers pretending it is part of my own interpretation of a song ;) I used to look every once in a while at the keyboard to orientate but lately (and it is getting worse by the month) I see a C almost everywhere when I do due to the fact some of the black keys are gone when I do. Making the left white key a C and sometimes even wondering who designed the keyboard since those 5 black keys aren't supposed to be  right next to each other :P These constantly changing gaps and my efforts to get used to playing totally blind are an extra handicap when playing with a timen based style accompaniment unless you use a free play style.

This all is reason for me to perhaps trade my T5 for an affordable CSP 170. A bit of a mix of both worlds so it seems. There is no dealer however anywhere near where I can go to and test. So before I go try and see where the nearest dealer with a showroom model is I thought to ask here :)

hope I didn't bore you all to death by now with an "off topic story/question"

any insights appreciated,

Peter
 

Offline adrianed

Re: Extremely Disappointed with Genos
« Reply #70 on: December 28, 2017, 05:24:47 PM »
Hi Folks,
I hope its ok to chip in but Gary should we retune the instrument to how we like it ??

If we are playing to others surely we need to wonder how they are hearing the music

You are a senior, I am also a senior and I know I have A hearing problem even with a hearing aid

Perhaps the young folk who set it up got it right

For myself the new Yamaha keyboard sounds too light but It might be because it suits the type of songs that the younger generation like to play and hear

All comments will be helpfull

Adrian
« Last Edit: December 28, 2017, 05:28:58 PM by adrianed »
 

Offline travlin-easy

Re: Extremely Disappointed with Genos
« Reply #71 on: December 28, 2017, 06:36:25 PM »
Adrian, when I was performing in the Florida Keys, I encountered the spring break kids - barbie doll girls and guys in their early 20s at most. Ironically, the ladies wanted to hear Sinatra, Cole Porter, Jimmy Buffett and Zach Brown songs more than the newer stuff. I kept the dancefloor packed every Wednesday and Friday night while playing those kind of songs, so I guess my shot the Hell hearing is better than I thought it was.

All the best,

Gary 8)
Love Those Yammies...
 

Offline OregonJim

Re: Extremely Disappointed with Genos
« Reply #72 on: December 28, 2017, 07:42:31 PM »
Vanray, The above remarks about home organs are, as you put it, your “personal opinion”, and you are obviously entitled to that. However, one of the reasons that you perceive them as a “dying breed” is the fact that they became so hugely expensive. The other reason came about following the advancements in electronics which meant that things could be miniaturised and put into smaller and smaller cabinets. Until, eventually, they became so small and light that they could be picked up and carried around under one arm… enter the ‘portable keyboard’! This was obviously a godsend to gigging musicians, who previously (with the help of assistants and a fairly large van!) hauled big organs around… and sometimes, separate Leslie cabinets as well!

However, as a non-gigging person, I strongly defend the whole concept of the home organ. Firstly, they are the very thing that got me interested in playing music in the first place. Secondly, there is something about them that is difficult to explain. There is that unmistakable warmth/depth to their sound… perhaps it’s something to do with their speaker system, or the cabinet? I think Pianoman’s analogy of a V8 muscle car vs a small-engined car is an excellent comparison! You only have to watch a few YouTube videos of the likes of Claudia Hirschfeld playing the Wersi Louvre, and also Chris Hopkins… who now has the ex-Blackpool Tower Ballroom’s Wersi Louvre at home. And in terms of appearance, being so much larger and having two or three manuals and a pedal board, home organs simply look more impressive. They seem to exude a certain aura of grandeur that many people are proud to show off in their homes - whilst the portable keyboard, on the other hand, is considered a mere toy by comparison. I fully understand and support DavidB’s desire to go for a Roland Atelier AT-800. Like I said in my earlier comment, if I won the Lottery, a top of the range home organ would be high on my shopping list too!

To DavidB: If/when you do finally decide on having a Roland AT-800, then I’m sure you will be very happy with it, and I wish you many years of enjoyment with such a magnificent instrument! :)

Regards,
Will

  I completely agree with this.

  As for the rest of this thread, I only have one thing to say:  If one is unable to connect with their instrument, then little good can come out of it.  It doesn't matter how many people feel differently, or what opinions they have.  Even if the problem is nothing more than a dislike for the color of the instrument, or some other feature that may seem insignificant, it is only the person PLAYING the instrument who can connect with it.  If that is not possible, then it is time for a different instrument - whatever the reason may be. 
Yamaha PSR-EW400, Electone HE-6
Roland RD-2000, XP-10
Hammond E-182
Alesis QS8.2, ARP Axxe, Korg MicroX
Akai MPK Mini Mk II, M-Audio Keystation 88 II
 
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Online DonM

Re: Extremely Disappointed with Genos
« Reply #73 on: December 28, 2017, 10:48:44 PM »
The very BEST of us can make mistakes.  I've been married three times. 

Offline Will49

Re: Extremely Disappointed with Genos
« Reply #74 on: December 29, 2017, 06:22:30 AM »
I had a Yamaha FS500, my last organ. It would be fun to have one at home I suppose, but I probably would opt for an arranger anyway, because of the joystick, the USB, the touch screen, the vocal processor, the midi-MP3-Wave player and recorder, the sequencer, the editing, the foot controllers, the programmable sliders...etc. Also the  FS500 had a sorry excuse for a piano sound, and virtually no decent guitars, no break/fills, no multiple intros and endings, no four variations, the drums were awful... I could go on and on about the improvements that show up in even middle of the line arrangers.
Hi DonM. I totally agree. It was in about the same era that I had the mighty Kawai DX900 and, although it was a fabulous instrument in its day, it too had similar limitations to those you refer to with your FS500. In fact, compare the DX900 in terms of sonic realism and all the other features to my current Tyros 5/76 and the huge advancement in technology becomes clearly obvious! However, we mustn’t forget that both your Yamaha FS500 and my Kawai DX900 date back to the early 1980s, and that organs (as well as keyboards) have also benefited from technological advancement over the years… huge touch screens and all of those things you mention. In fact, the sonic realism, depth/warmth of some of the sounds they produce can be staggeringly impressive! The sad thing tough is that some of the top models (e.g. the Wersi Pergamon OAX1000) could set you back about £36,000! A Roland AT-800 like DavidB is considering is also way over my budget, but I’ve seen & heard one live and I sure as heck would love one…. maybe one day!

By the way, to all of the happy Genos owners here: Like everything else, the Genos may not be perfect in every single aspect for some. But as far as arrangers go, it may also be the best that money can buy at present. And my rambling on about organs (and my full support of DavidB’s decision to look for a Roland AT-800) is not in any way an attempt to degrade the Genos at all… keyboards and organs are totally different animals – perhaps a bit like trying to compare a Subaru WRX STI to a Bentley Continental GT! ;)

Regards,
Will

Offline pjd

Re: Extremely Disappointed with Genos
« Reply #75 on: December 29, 2017, 06:41:05 AM »
As for the rest of this thread, I only have one thing to say:  If one is unable to connect with their instrument, then little good can come out of it.  It doesn't matter how many people feel differently, or what opinions they have.  Even if the problem is nothing more than a dislike for the color of the instrument, or some other feature that may seem insignificant, it is only the person PLAYING the instrument who can connect with it.  If that is not possible, then it is time for a different instrument - whatever the reason may be.

Great comment, Jim!

I think this is at the essence of what I wanted to say about playing the CVP-709. The CVP-709 produced a rather complete experience of playing an acoustic piano for me. The keybed action, tone generation, sound system and underlying software created a genuine "key to sound" experience and connection.

I'm really digging Genos as primarily a synthesist and organist. I don't regard myself as much of a pianist. However, the CVP-709 as the full experience is closer to the GA1 acoustic grand at the church than the Genos. Not a slam, just a statement of difference.

All the best -- pj

Online DonM

Re: Extremely Disappointed with Genos
« Reply #76 on: December 29, 2017, 11:28:21 AM »
Hi DonM. I totally agree. It was in about the same era that I had the mighty Kawai DX900 and, although it was a fabulous instrument in its day, it too had similar limitations to those you refer to with your FS500. In fact, compare the DX900 in terms of sonic realism and all the other features to my current Tyros 5/76 and the huge advancement in technology becomes clearly obvious! However, we mustn’t forget that both your Yamaha FS500 and my Kawai DX900 date back to the early 1980s, and that organs (as well as keyboards) have also benefited from technological advancement over the years… huge touch screens and all of those things you mention. In fact, the sonic realism, depth/warmth of some of the sounds they produce can be staggeringly impressive! The sad thing tough is that some of the top models (e.g. the Wersi Pergamon OAX1000) could set you back about £36,000! A Roland AT-800 like DavidB is considering is also way over my budget, but I’ve seen & heard one live and I sure as heck would love one…. maybe one day!

By the way, to all of the happy Genos owners here: Like everything else, the Genos may not be perfect in every single aspect for some. But as far as arrangers go, it may also be the best that money can buy at present. And my rambling on about organs (and my full support of DavidB’s decision to look for a Roland AT-800) is not in any way an attempt to degrade the Genos at all… keyboards and organs are totally different animals – perhaps a bit like trying to compare a Subaru WRX STI to a Bentley Continental GT! ;)

Regards,
Will

Hi Will,
I will admit I have not sat down at an organ since the happy day mine left the building!  I'm sure they reflect the advances in technology available now.
I'm totally happy with my Korg PA4X.  Nothing about the Genos, especially the price, is tempting me to want to change.
I will most likely be in the market for the S970 replacement, but as a second or backup arranger for me.  That will most likely be another year though and a lot can happen in a year!
Best wishes by friend!
DonM

Offline Will49

Re: Extremely Disappointed with Genos
« Reply #77 on: December 30, 2017, 02:09:21 AM »
Nothing about the Genos, especially the price, is tempting me to want to change.
Best wishes by friend!
Hi DonM, The price was a no-no for me too. As mentioned in earlier comments, I had the choice of parting with almost £3,000 on top of my T4 to have a Genos, or a mere £949 with my T4 for a mint T5/76... the latter won! Some happy Genos owners here may, of course, say that Genos is a huge improvement over the T5, and that it has been worth every penny it cost them to change... and I respect their sentiments and wish them every happiness with their choice. 😊

Best wishes to you too DonM,
Will
« Last Edit: December 30, 2017, 02:10:56 AM by Will49 »
 

Offline DavidB

Re: Extremely Disappointed with Genos
« Reply #78 on: January 02, 2018, 05:18:48 AM »
I am selling my Genos, speakers, stands, expansions...

https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,42188.0.html

Thanks for looking :)
Just don't mention Genos USB drive letter assignments :)
 

Offline hammer

Re: Extremely Disappointed with Genos
« Reply #79 on: January 02, 2018, 07:51:11 AM »
I am always amazed at people's opinion about the sound of pianos.  I played with both the Dallas and Ft. Worth Symphony Orchestras and often we had very famous piano players as guests.  Often they brought with them their personal piano and some even brought there own piano tech or tuner with them!   It was amazing to hear a Bosendorfer, a Fazioli, the old Steinways, and even the older Baldwins and hear how great they sounded when properly tuned and tweaked to the performers specs.  So, what does a really good piano sound like?  Well, which one?  In what environment? Played by whom?  Is there ANY arranger keyboard that even comes close to recreating the sound of these fabulous pianos? 

I do own the Genos and I will agree that the pianos are not real good and Yamaha really should address that issue.  Seems they went crazy with "effects" on the pianos.   That said, they certainly work and for most audiences it makes no difference.

Deane

Offline keynote

Re: Extremely Disappointed with Genos
« Reply #80 on: January 02, 2018, 05:01:16 PM »
There are adjustments on the Genos that can make the Grand Piano(s) sound more to your liking including EQ and Compressor settings.

The acoustic Grand Pianos on the Genos are a step up from the Tyros 5 but there is always room for improvement needless to say. Having said that there are many many excellent voices on the Genos. Here is the latest video of Peter Baartmans playing the Genos in Eindhoven, Netherlands. It's almost an hour in length but it's worth watching in its entirety in my opinion. He plays all kinds of voices including the CFX concert grand. Enjoy!

Peter Baartmans latest video playing the Genos

Mike

Offline Dromeus

Re: Extremely Disappointed with Genos
« Reply #81 on: January 03, 2018, 03:26:44 AM »
Piano sounds are subject to personal preference, so different opinions are quite natural. I admit I was never a fan of Yamaha piano sounds and certainly didn't like the key action of Yamaha digital/stage pianos. In fact I'm a big fan of Kawai stage pianos and maybe my ears are tuned to that sound...

When judging the sound of an arranger's piano I really think you should not use the internal keyboard, but connect a decent graded hammer action keyboard via MIDI, because it makes a huge difference. You just can't get the dynamics needed for piano sounds out of a weighted synth action keyboard.

Having said that, I must say I like the Genos pianos. Certainly better then the T3 pianos (that's where I came from arranger-wise). Anyway, from an arranger I would not expect a piano sound comparable to a first class digital piano or even a high-class piano VST plugin, that offer subtleties (e.g. string harmonics) which are of no importance when the piano is part of an arrangement produced by Genos.

Regards, Michael
 

Offline XeeniX

Re: Extremely Disappointed with Genos
« Reply #82 on: January 03, 2018, 03:27:29 AM »
Thank you Mike!

Now that is what I call a real demo. Almost no silly jokes, in his own language sitting down between people and nopt on a podium. Without an "amaaaazing" arpeggio on a 5 second delay. And recorded analog. Making the sound much more honest and real. This is the first Genos demo I have seen where at least for me it is clear that the instruments on the Genos whether the same as on a T5 (choir and a few others) or new (kino for example)  really produce a better sound. Honest also as in Peter trying to steer away from the multi pad question since there are no real changes there.

All things set in real time not with some carfully prepared registrations and lots of audio files which are not very realistic for most of us. This, for me, is a demo worth watching if you want to prepare yourself before you go to a dealer to test it yourself and make a final judgement. Still not sure if I one day will go for one or wait for the next one but at least it improved my personal opinion of the Genos quite a bit.

kind regards,
Peter




 

Re: Extremely Disappointed with Genos
« Reply #83 on: January 03, 2018, 09:51:58 AM »
Comparing a Genos sampled CFX grand piano sound to the real thing: an acoustic piece of equipment selling for over 117.000 pounds..... ;)

Offline DavidB

Re: Extremely Disappointed with Genos
« Reply #84 on: January 03, 2018, 10:44:18 AM »
Comparing a Genos sampled CFX grand piano sound to the real thing: an acoustic piece of equipment selling for over 117.000 pounds..... ;)

Nope, comparing it to a CVP709 which when I bought it cost exactly what I paid for the Genos. ;)
Just don't mention Genos USB drive letter assignments :)
 

Offline DavidB

Re: Extremely Disappointed with Genos
« Reply #85 on: January 03, 2018, 11:05:40 AM »
Well, probably the end of an era, and I'm certain my time on this forum. As soon as I sell my Genos I won't have a Yamaha instrument in the house, and that after owning them for over 25 years.

Anyway, it's been fun, even though the Genos is not what Yamaha want you to believe it is, especially not with its useless speaker system, so I wish everyone all the very best and leave you with a picture of what just found its way into my house. I've already made a more pleasing noise on it that I've managed to make on a Genos in the last few months. If you're interested in buying my perfect Genos, with no faults and extras, then please PM me and I will get an email.

Good luck to you all, really, I don't know how long I will have the pleasure of the Atelier but I'm hoping for at least a few years. Only God and my cancer treatment can decide though.

All the best.



Just don't mention Genos USB drive letter assignments :)
 

Offline travlin-easy

Re: Extremely Disappointed with Genos
« Reply #86 on: January 03, 2018, 11:47:01 AM »
David, good luck with those Cancer treatments, and I sincerely hope all goes well for you. Stop in and say hi once in a while and let us know how you are getting along.

Good luck,

Gary 8)
Love Those Yammies...
 

Offline ugawoga

Re: Extremely Disappointed with Genos
« Reply #87 on: January 03, 2018, 01:37:38 PM »
It is all down to getting a decent set of speakers
The Genos ones are like a transistor radio to me
The Genos is 100% and quality
« Last Edit: January 03, 2018, 01:39:14 PM by ugawoga »
 

Offline Will49

Re: Extremely Disappointed with Genos
« Reply #88 on: January 03, 2018, 03:57:04 PM »
...I wish everyone all the very best and leave you with a picture of what just found its way into my house.
Hi DavidB. Wow, now that looks the business! Like I've said before, electronic organs are what got me interested in learning to play a bit of music in the first place - and that's many, many years ago now! Sadly though, their price gradually got way beyobd my reach.

With its dual manual and pedalboard (plus that beautiful cabinet), it looks a far more impressive instument than any portable keyboard could ever do! And I've seen and heard an AT-800 too, so can vouch that it has beautiful sounds and some excellent features!

I wish you all the very best with your cancer treatnent, and hope that you have many years of enjoynent with such a magnificent instrument!

Best regards,
Will

Offline Dromeus

Re: Extremely Disappointed with Genos
« Reply #89 on: January 04, 2018, 07:24:47 AM »
It is all down to getting a decent set of speakers
The Genos ones are like a transistor radio to me
The Genos is 100% and quality

That's good advice!

Back in the day I bought a PSR-2000 instead of a PSR-9000. For the money saved I got me decent speakers (2.1). Did even make my PSR-2000 shine ;D. I use theses speakers still today, what a worthwile investment.
Regards, Michael
 

Offline Keyboardist

Re: Extremely Disappointed with Genos
« Reply #90 on: January 04, 2018, 10:51:44 AM »
DavidB 
I really wish you well and your treatments effective.
I'm going through a different health issue right now and while it certainly hard to be happy about it, we must really try and be very positive in the mind that this will work; not if it works but when I get better !

Sorry the Geno's didn't work out; O well don't sweat the small stuff we know whats important !

Craig "Keyboardist"
Arranger Workstations
My Performer Page
 

Offline mark fernando

Re: Extremely Disappointed with Genos
« Reply #91 on: January 04, 2018, 12:12:56 PM »
Hi,

I have PSR s 950 and it is more than enough for my needs. If I need real sound I have soft synths and they sound much better than any arranger keyboard (example - Synthology Ivory II ). The quality of Piano voices have  major role & value in any instrument or workstation. Also as per my knowledge when you want to select a additional PA system piano voice is the main sound to hear before buying any. All other voices will sound good if you get right Piano sound through PA. But as mentioned in above posts we cannot expect natural sound from these digital keyboards.  They never can produce natural sound. Looks like in future professional musicians and studios will go back to old analog technology I can see already Tube amplifies and Vinyl records back in stores.

thanks

Mark

Offline tyrosman

Re: Extremely Disappointed with Genos
« Reply #92 on: January 04, 2018, 02:01:01 PM »
what im saying here is if you want a piano buy one all evry one is doing is complaining about the Piano enough said
Genos
 

Online EileenL

Re: Extremely Disappointed with Genos
« Reply #93 on: January 04, 2018, 03:00:49 PM »
Yes I think the new piano's are much improved now and sound great.

Offline Lee Batchelor

Re: Extremely Disappointed with Genos
« Reply #94 on: January 04, 2018, 04:41:03 PM »
Agreed about the piano voices, Eileen - to a point. Nord dedicates 1 GB of memory for their piano samples, and they're stellar - far superior to the T5 and possibly Genos (most of us Canadians won't know for another month or so because Yamaha "has their reasons for not delivering to the Canadian market at this time").

Memory is cheap, and the piano is still the anchor voice in any arranger. Yamaha could stick a 1 GB chip in the Genos (for pennies) and blow every other company away with their piano voices and other amazing voices, but doing so may reduce sales of other products. People like me are sick to death of bringing two pianos to major concerts all because the Yamaha marketing people decided to put a lousy piano in the Tyros series. I have yet to comment about the Genos pianos...maybe another month or so.
Current Gear: Genos, SoundCraft mixer, two Bose L1 Compacts, 15 inch sub designed and built by myself, Yamaha HS8 studio monitors, Cubase 8 Artist, Steinberg UR-44.
 

Offline travlin-easy

Re: Extremely Disappointed with Genos
« Reply #95 on: January 04, 2018, 05:46:16 PM »
Lee, I listened to Abby The Pianoman's Another Brick In The Wall and the T3 piano he played was absolutely stellar. I know my hearing is not as good as it was many years ago, but I can assure you that any audience I have performed for would not know the difference between his T3 and a Steinway Grand. Take a listen to http://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,42219.0.html

Gary 8)
Love Those Yammies...
 

Offline Lee Batchelor

Re: Extremely Disappointed with Genos
« Reply #96 on: January 05, 2018, 05:02:15 AM »
It does sound good, Gary! Well played too  ;).

I wonder what the difference would be with the Genos or Nord pianos. A huge step up, I 'd wager. The T3 midrange tones sound "boxy" and slightly out of phase. But you're right - there's that darn hearing thing again (LOL) :)!!
Current Gear: Genos, SoundCraft mixer, two Bose L1 Compacts, 15 inch sub designed and built by myself, Yamaha HS8 studio monitors, Cubase 8 Artist, Steinberg UR-44.
 

Offline jwyvern

Re: Extremely Disappointed with Genos
« Reply #97 on: January 05, 2018, 06:03:44 AM »
With a new keyboard model there always were passionate and divergent views on the main piano voice. Here is my take on Genos:
 
Whenever Yamaha promote their latest all singing all dancing fantastic piano on a new arranger (Tyros and Genos) the default setups are to a formula tailored to provide a "piano voice" primarily for mixing well with other RH instruments, or providing block chords with 1 finger, and in providing a ready basis for the interminable saloon, honky tonk, cocktail etc. pianos. Understandably perhaps on that basis there appears to be little effort out of the box to gear it more fully to the playing experience expected by full keyboard pianists. Even so, out of the box the Genos piano is a significant improvement over the old ConcertGrand played 2-handed, but even though I was not expecting CVP performance I was surprised at how held back (otherwise) it sounded. Even the new preset String Resonance DSP did not seem to have much effect on it.

Although little comfort to DavidB, yes it can be improved upon but Yamaha leave it to us, or at least those of us who can be bothered or who willingly or grudgingly rise to a challenge. For Yamaha there seems no motivation for having such a thing as a "proper" piano set up in an arranger, and in any case a lot/most? users probably can't see/hear what all the incessant gripes are about. It's those pesky piano players (I'm included) who keep complaining!

Increase in Low EQ in Voice Set and significant adjustments to the Resonance DSP plus a few tweaks will give improvements, enough to motivate me, because of its overall quality, to play the cfx for relaxation - ie. not too much frustration involved;).

Now for the counter-intuitive bit: 
If you want a piano that has some depth and invades your space with resonance when chording and pedalling then try the old LiveGrand (which has been around since Ty2??). On Genos when EQ and Resonance are adjusted this jumps out as more real to me (having grown up with an upright Grand) and I prefer the overall playing experience to the cfx. So Yamaha had the technology then, why wasn't it exploited on later models? (too busy fussing over SA technology I suspect;))

A further step is you can merge the best of both worlds by layering cfx and LiveGrand (using suitable pans and balances). That way you get the Resonance of LG with the longer notes when sustained, of the cfx (the LG very low notes unfortunately fade quicker) and a blend of their timbres, which is not bad IMO!

Purists may not be reassured by "workarounds" but there is no doubt if you want the best from an arranger you have to put some homework into it, other than just sitting and playing. Although I'm only 2 months in, Genos seems to have the tools and quality samples that generally result in a better response to tweaks than Tyros. 
Incidentally, it's not always about whether an audience notices a difference, (there doesn't have to be one). Sometimes it's more about whether the player has a feel good factor about the instrument's reactions that provides a motivation that comes through in the music.

When more organised I'll post some registrations of these examples in a different thread so others with a genuine interest in 2-handed piano can try them in Genos if they wish.

John

Offline Bob88

Re: Extremely Disappointed with Genos
« Reply #98 on: January 05, 2018, 06:30:57 AM »
  A great  post John.  The need  for  a better sounding piano has been  a priority
for  me since my purchase  of a Tyros4 then 5 and now the Genos.  The  remaining instrument voices  keep improving with each new flagship.  I look forward to hearing your registrations.  Thank you.  Bob
 

Offline StuartR

Re: Extremely Disappointed with Genos
« Reply #99 on: January 05, 2018, 06:38:08 AM »
A further step is you can merge the best of both worlds by layering cfx and LiveGrand (using suitable pans and balances).
When more organised I'll post some registrations of these examples in a different thread so others with a genuine interest in 2-handed piano can try them in Genos if they wish.

John

That would be great. Thanks John!