Author Topic: Setting the Leslie Speeds to sound more like the real thing  (Read 2230 times)

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Offline Lloyd E

Setting the Leslie Speeds to sound more like the real thing
« on: December 24, 2017, 02:11:03 PM »
The Rotary speeds for the Leslies are very poor and need to be set to more realistic ones. Does someone here had experience
in setting them up in the Genos? If so, would hope you could post them here as a guideline for the rest of us. It would be so
much realistic to have the Leslie speeds so when you went from fast to slow, it would slow down slowly  and when you turn
it back to fast it would gradually speed up to max. This would be great !    Hope someone can give me that info.   Lloyd
Music is the way to go
 

Offline gerard

Re: Setting the Leslie Speeds to sound more like the real thing
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2017, 02:30:10 PM »
Lloyd,

There is some info in this post.
https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,41787.0.html

I have a short demo of what I changed the settings to.
If you like that, I set the slow-fast to 0.46 and fast-slow to 0.86.

Gerard
 
The following users thanked this post: Lloyd E, StuartR

Offline pjd

Re: Setting the Leslie Speeds to sound more like the real thing
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2017, 02:40:48 PM »
Hi --

I'm tweaking the Genos rotary speaker effect and updated my notes. Hope these notes help someone out.

The DUAL ROT BRT and DUAL ROT WARM columns are the default settings on the S950. The PJD column are the settings that I use.

The PJD settings are derived from the MOX rotary speaker effect. This is the same effect algorithm as the S950. I prefer the MOX sound over the S950 and that may be due to the VCM EQ 501 insert effect on the MOX. (Motif/MOX allow two insert effects to be chained.) The VCM EQ 501 emulates a vintage boutique EQ and, unfortunately, PSR/Tyros/Genos does not implement the VCM EQ 501 algorithm.

Keep on tweaking -- pj

P.S. Multiply Hertz (Hz) by 60 to get RPM.


**********************************************
DUAL ROT BRT, DUAL ROT WARM
**********************************************

                         DUAL ROT BRT    DUAL ROT WARM      PJD
                         ------------    -------------    --------
Rotor Speed Slow            0.67Hz           0.67Hz        0.67Hz  40.2RPM
Horn Speed Slow             0.76Hz           0.76Hz        0.80Hz  48.0RPM
Rotor Speed Fast            6.39Hz           6.06Hz        5.72Hz  343.2RPM
Horn Speed Fast             6.73Hz           6.73Hz        6.73Hz  403.8RPM
Slow-Fast Time of Rotor     39               45            47
Slow-Fast Time of Horn      7                7             20
Drive Low                   35               31            17
Drive High                  37               36            43
Low/High Balance            L<H4             L13>H         L=H
EQ Low Frequency            100Hz            100Hz         100Hz
EQ Low Gain                 +8dB             +8dB          -2dB
EQ High Frequency           1.0kHz           1.0kHz        1.0kHz
EQ High Gain                -3dB             -4dB          +0dB
Mic L-R Angle               177deg           177deg        162deg
Speed Control               Slow             Fast          Slow

******************************************************
MOX Rotary Speaker effect
******************************************************

Input --> InsertA --> InsertB --> Output

Insert A: VCM EQ 501 (Preset: flat)
   EQ1Freq    71.0Hz       EQ2Freq    250Hz        EQ3Freq    1.00KHz
   EQ1Gain    -3.0dB       EQ2Gain    -1.3dB       EQ3Gain    0.0dB
                           EQ2Q       0.71         EQ3Q       0.71

Insert B: Rotary SP (S950:DUAL ROT BRT,DUAL ROT WARM,DUAL ROT SP1,DUAL ROT SP2)
   SpeedCtrl     Slow
   S-FTmRotor    47         Slow to Fast time of Rotor
   S-FTmHorn     20         Slow to Fast time of Horn
   RotorS        0.67Hz
   HornS         0.80Hz
   RotorF        5.72Hz
   HornF         6.73Hz
   MicAngl       162deg
   DriveRotor    17
   DriveHorn     43
   Rotor/Horn    R=H

The VCM EQ 501 is an emulation of a vintage boutique equalizer, probably the
Pultec EQP-1A. PSR/Tyros/Genos do not implement this VCM effect.


Offline Reg

Re: Setting the Leslie Speeds to sound more like the real thing
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2017, 03:39:24 PM »
  Gerard: Would you mention how to find the section where I can adjust the rotary leslie settings as you have ?  I am unable to find  the location .  A path to that function would be helpful.  Thank you.  Reg
 

Online Wim NL

Re: Setting the Leslie Speeds to sound more like the real thing
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2017, 03:48:22 PM »
example :
Select Voice : Organ > JazzStandard
Press Voice Button
Touch Screen Press : Real Rotary
Touch Screen Press  : detail
Best Regards,
Wim
 

Offline Reg

Re: Setting the Leslie Speeds to sound more like the real thing
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2017, 03:54:34 PM »
  Thank you for your quick reply Wim.  Regards, Reg
 

Offline gerard

Re: Setting the Leslie Speeds to sound more like the real thing
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2017, 04:01:12 PM »
Thanks wim for helping me out.
Just saw his post now.

Gerard
 

Offline pjd

Re: Setting the Leslie Speeds to sound more like the real thing
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2017, 09:05:45 PM »
Hi --

Just spent some time tweaking the Genos Real Rotary effect. This is the new rotary speaker effect and is the same as the Montage effect algorithm.

As Gerard, Uli and others have noted, acceleration times (slow-fast, fast-slow) of the woofer cannot be set. These parameters are configurable on the Montage, BTW. Yamaha?

Also, seems like the upper limit for acceleration time is 2.00. I wish the maximum was longer. Yamaha tends to program rotary speaker speeds too fast right out of the box. (I know of at least one Yamaha demonstrator who feels the same way!)

The drive seems kind of wimpy. Does Drive interact with any other parameters like Input Level? Steve Winwood is not pleased. :)

The Tone control darkens and brightens the sound (0: dark, 10: bright). I like my Hammond tone a little darker, so I dialed this down a little bit.

If it every gets warm in New England, again, I'll find a Montage and look at the defaults for its rotary speaker effect. The synths often are programmed differently.

Not an effects thing, but does anyone else miss drawbar color (brown, black and ivory)? When I reach for the sliders while playing, all I see is a mess'o'black drawbars. As much as I hate to schmutz up a new instrument, I might put some kind of white sticky on the even bars to help my old eyes.

Havin' a blast! Only had it a week and I'm still playing mostly organ... Oh, there are other voices? :)

All the best and stay warm -- pj



**********************************************
Genos Real Rotary effect
**********************************************

  Parameter                 Default    PJD
  ------------------------  -------  -------
  Drive                     4.5      5.0
  Tone                      10.0     8.5
  Low/High Balance          L<H6     L<H6
  Output Level              80       80
  Mic L-R Angle             120deg   120deg
  Input Level               +6.0dB   +6dB
  Modulation Intensity      10       10
  Slow-Fast Time of Horn    1.10     2.00
  Fast-Slow Time of Horn    1.00     1.90
  Woofer Speed Slow         44.8RPM  40.1
  Horn Speed Slow           45.4     45.4
  Woofer Speed Fast         413.8    343.2
  Horn Speed Fast           454.2    393.7

 

Offline Marcus

Re: Setting the Leslie Speeds to sound more like the real thing
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2017, 02:12:43 AM »
Thanks pj, I'll give your settings a whirl, so to speak.

My Pro 900 Leslie speaker on the upper horn had a triple notched pulley, where you have a choice of what speed to drive the horn belt. I am with you, I don't like the fast speed too fast, so I used to run on the middle pulley. Just to note, on my 900 Leslie, the woofer drum was either off or would run slow. So it wouldn't be unauthentic (or sound unauthentic) in anyway if Yamaha left out the woofer acceleration times.

If memory serves me correct, I was able to adjust the acceleration on my Model 147 Leslie by the amount of friction adjusted on the upper drive motor. The lower drum did have fast as well, but I cannot recall if that was adjustable on the 147. Always used the official Hammond oil for both my Hammond organs and my Leslie. Everything is so much easier (and lighter) right on the Genos settings.  :D

Marcus
Gear: Triangle
"Extremely Happy with Genos"
 

Offline Flemming

Re: Setting the Leslie Speeds to sound more like the real thing
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2017, 05:09:21 AM »
Interesting thread!

I find the "Real Leslie" that Genos use as standard pretty lousy. I believe in needs for having the possibility to put drive to the effect, they didn't have VCM power to make the rest of the effect efficiently enough. So I find it not deep and warm enough, and I compare to the Neo Ventilator II, that I used before.

So normally I use the Warm rotor effect, that feels deeper, warmer and have many more edit possibilities. You can make the effect deeper, level the balance, take down the rotor speed and accelleration - and you have a nicer rotor effect, but It leaves you without any drive.

BUT - Yamaha finally give us several insert effects to insert. Put on one of these (find the way in to it in the Mixer/Effect and tab the insertion button). To mostly jazz I put on a distortion Boutique clean (the weakest at all). It put on some distortion and level up the key-click as well. For rock one of the others more heavy ones. I'm havn't finished playing with this sound, and I'm a pure amateur to distortion, so I think you could make a more realistic drive out of one of the distortions to save as user-effect, I hope someone else have more ideas to this. Anyone?

I use for other purpose a Hammond XK3 and a real Leslie 860, and try to get closer to that sound.

Best regards
Flemming
Yamaha electone organ: D3 (70's), HS6, EL90
Yamaha Keyboards: PSR 7000, 8000, 9000, 9000pro, Tyros 1,2,3,4,5-76
 

Offline Dromeus

Re: Setting the Leslie Speeds to sound more like the real thing
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2017, 08:34:36 AM »
I use for other purpose a Hammond XK3 and a real Leslie 860, and try to get closer to that sound.
That's the way to go. I would not care 'bout parameter settings in any Yamaha synth's "Leslie" emulation. I do not own a real Leslie, for organ playing I use an UHL X3-2 Smooth with it's excellent built-in Leslie simulation and a Hammond XK-3c with a Neo Vent II (both simulate a Leslie 122). When tweaking the Genos I'd try to get "close" to the sound of the UHL, but I doubt the Genos is capable of that. That's why tweaking the Genos is not on my priority list for the time being, but for sure I will follow this thread, thanks for sharing your experiences.
Regards, Michael
 

Offline pjd

Re: Setting the Leslie Speeds to sound more like the real thing
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2017, 02:55:33 PM »
Just to note, on my 900 Leslie, the woofer drum was either off or would run slow.

I didn't know you were from Memphis.  ;)

Thanks, Marcus, Michael and Flemming. I'm always trying to improve B-3/rotary sound, so your comments are helpful. The space that I play in (at church) only has room for one keyboard and I need to completely set up and tear down (quickly) every Sunday. Wish I could take a clone. I still have an NE2.

Flemming, yeah, I think when Yamaha rolled out the Real Rotary effect in Montage, they assumed that a preamp or distortion effect could/would be inserted before the Real Rotary. Right now, I am way far away from experimenting with insert effects. Trying to get the bread and butter in place first.

I'll have to re-read the thread on Genos DSP insert effects.

Thanks to everyone posting on this thread -- pj
 

Offline Marcus

Re: Setting the Leslie Speeds to sound more like the real thing
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2017, 04:38:34 PM »
I haven't got to that point yet, but as far as adding a distortion effect DSP to the rotary effect, I was hoping I could add a distortion effect controlled by the up/down control stick. Not sure if the Modulation Hold button can work with a distortion effect, but ideal to control the amount of distortion added to an organ voice and then lock the amount in. Fast/Slow Leslie effect could still be used by the Rotary SP/Assignable button in that case.

Many possibilities to add a distortion DSP effect. Perhaps assigned to an assignable button, or to an external pedal or controller. As with a real tube amp Leslie speaker, the overdrive distortion effect would sound more authentic when applied to the highest volume or drive of the organ voice, yet controlled on the Genos by the user.

I like the dynamic qualities of applying certain DSP effects, and so far liked applying the rotar speaker types with the acceleration curves to the Rotary SP/Assignable button, instead of the simple on/off or Slow/Fast types. Nice that one can easily experiment and make up their own settings and user tweaks.

Also, the fact that the Genos is a new arranger platform and with a new touch screen navigation, there should be significant firmware updates as opposed to just working out the bugs. Very happy so far with my Genos.

Marcus
Gear: Triangle
"Extremely Happy with Genos"
 

Offline StuartR

Re: Setting the Leslie Speeds to sound more like the real thing
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2018, 04:51:15 AM »
Hi --

Just spent some time tweaking the Genos Real Rotary effect. This is the new rotary speaker effect and is the same as the Montage effect algorithm.

As Gerard, Uli and others have noted, acceleration times (slow-fast, fast-slow) of the woofer cannot be set. These parameters are configurable on the Montage, BTW. Yamaha?

Also, seems like the upper limit for acceleration time is 2.00. I wish the maximum was longer. Yamaha tends to program rotary speaker speeds too fast right out of the box. (I know of at least one Yamaha demonstrator who feels the same way!)

The drive seems kind of wimpy. Does Drive interact with any other parameters like Input Level? Steve Winwood is not pleased. :)

The Tone control darkens and brightens the sound (0: dark, 10: bright). I like my Hammond tone a little darker, so I dialed this down a little bit.

If it every gets warm in New England, again, I'll find a Montage and look at the defaults for its rotary speaker effect. The synths often are programmed differently.

Not an effects thing, but does anyone else miss drawbar color (brown, black and ivory)? When I reach for the sliders while playing, all I see is a mess'o'black drawbars. As much as I hate to schmutz up a new instrument, I might put some kind of white sticky on the even bars to help my old eyes.

Havin' a blast! Only had it a week and I'm still playing mostly organ... Oh, there are other voices? :)

All the best and stay warm -- pj



**********************************************
Genos Real Rotary effect
**********************************************

  Parameter                 Default    PJD
  ------------------------  -------  -------
  Drive                     4.5      5.0
  Tone                      10.0     8.5
  Low/High Balance          L<H6     L<H6
  Output Level              80       80
  Mic L-R Angle             120deg   120deg
  Input Level               +6.0dB   +6dB
  Modulation Intensity      10       10
  Slow-Fast Time of Horn    1.10     2.00
  Fast-Slow Time of Horn    1.00     1.90
  Woofer Speed Slow         44.8RPM  40.1
  Horn Speed Slow           45.4     45.4
  Woofer Speed Fast         413.8    343.2
  Horn Speed Fast           454.2    393.7


I tried your settings without much satisfaction. Just gave up and bought a used Neo Vent. Spending that money will almost certainly guarantee that Yamaha will improve their Leslie configurability and real-time control in an upcoming firmware release! You're welcome 😁
 

Offline pjd

Re: Setting the Leslie Speeds to sound more like the real thing
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2018, 05:47:04 AM »
Hi Stuart --

Thanks for the feedback. I don't think I'm "there" yet. When I was tweaking the other day, I slowed both the rotor and horn even more and dialed down some of the top end with EQ. I'd like to find a reliable/useful way to insert an amp simulator or distortion unit between the organ flutes and the rotary sim. Otherwise, the Genos rotary organ is waaaaaay too polite even for polite company. :)

Been doing some work in YEM, so the rotary organ stuff is kind of backburner for the moment.

-- pj
 

Offline StuartR

Re: Setting the Leslie Speeds to sound more like the real thing
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2018, 07:44:53 AM »
Hi Stuart --

Thanks for the feedback. I don't think I'm "there" yet. When I was tweaking the other day, I slowed both the rotor and horn even more and dialed down some of the top end with EQ. I'd like to find a reliable/useful way to insert an amp simulator or distortion unit between the organ flutes and the rotary sim. Otherwise, the Genos rotary organ is waaaaaay too polite even for polite company. :)

Been doing some work in YEM, so the rotary organ stuff is kind of backburner for the moment.

-- pj

Yeah, I think the Genos Leslie drive parameter is definitely broken. Without that, real simulation isn't possible.
 

Offline soryt

Re: Setting the Leslie Speeds to sound more like the real thing
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2018, 12:26:34 AM »
I use the Lester K Rotary effect on the Genos , just listen >>

https://youtu.be/kDTFwmaSt2o

Soryt  :)
 

Offline StuartR

Re: Setting the Leslie Speeds to sound more like the real thing
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2018, 01:08:16 AM »
I use the Lester K Rotary effect on the Genos , just listen >>

https://youtu.be/kDTFwmaSt2o

Soryt  :)

Sounds great. My band does that tune. I've been using horns for that rundown but I'm gonna add a B3 (with a Neo Vent) soon!

How do you route your Lester K through the Genos? I'm guessing you switch to the Line Sub 3/4 pair to route just the organ voice (R1?) to the Lester stereo in and then the Lester stereo outs to the Genos Aux inputs and save this to a registration? I guess you can keep other voices from routing through the Lester when you're playing other tunes that don't use Organ since the default routing is set to Aux Out and prevents any voices from going out the Sub 3/4 pair? Since I haven't done this yet I'm just running it through my mind. Let me know if I'm on the right track.

Stuart.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2018, 01:14:08 AM by StuartR »
 

Offline soryt

Re: Setting the Leslie Speeds to sound more like the real thing
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2018, 02:39:01 AM »
Stuart , Youre right ,Line out = sub1/sub2 to Lester and from lester K to Aux in (l/R) .
there is one thing i dont like , if you select the voice on the sub outputs the new reverb (from Mixer main)  and effects cant be used ,only  the standard  insertion Reverbs
And i have saved it in a special reg bank with of course the line out settings .

Soneg  :D
 
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Offline StuartR

Re: Setting the Leslie Speeds to sound more like the real thing
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2018, 03:40:07 AM »
Stuart , Youre right ,Line out = sub1/sub2 to Lester and from lester K to Aux in (l/R) .
there is one thing i dont like , if you select the voice on the sub outputs the new reverb (from Mixer main)  and effects cant be used ,only  the standard  insertion Reverbs
And i have saved it in a special reg bank with of course the line out settings .

Soneg  :D

I think I heard that somewhere else, too. I wonder what prompted that design decision?