Author Topic: Genos vs Montage  (Read 1614 times)

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Offline Bachus

Genos vs Montage
« on: October 11, 2017, 12:40:25 AM »
This is a copy from yamaha’s synthwebsite of a statement by Yamaha’s moderator bad Mister..  i think there are quite some things that can be learned from this about yanaha’s stance towards the Genos

Quote
What I’d like see is less “guessing” about what the corporate intentions were and the silly conspiracy theory type stuff that discussions like this always dissolve into. If we all agree that stating what we each think Yamaha should make makes us feel better but may have no basis in reality or no possibility of ever happening because none of us has all the information necessary to actually make that happen.

We can all only speak about what we do musically, and what we may want personally. (And for me that’s interesting). But when someone tries to speak for more than themselves, from this side, it is less interesting, because it no longer is constructive from that point on.

“Everybody wants...” instead of “I write music, I need...” I tend to read the latter with interest -it’s going to be musical in nature and the former is often filled with that individual’s thoughts on how it would be if they ruled the world or made the decisions. Those discussions can be interesting but mostly they hardly ever lead to anything constructive.

If there were any ground rules (loosely) let’s agree:
the MONTAGE is not a Motif XF, nor is it a Motif anything
the GENOS is not a Tyros 5, nor is it a Tyros anything

The change in name, is not trivial. It is expensive, time consuming (both names were leaked by musicians working in the Patent Office years ago) but is done to signify a change in direction. A change in concept, focus. If we wanted you to think it was the same we’d have kept the series name, (duh!)

Buying an Arranger when you're focused on Sound Design, would be as wrong as buying a keyboard that focuses on Sound Design when you need an Arranger. The move from Music Production Synthesizer (which is what the Motif XF was) with its Integrated Sampling Sequencer, to Music Synthesizer (which is what MONTAGE is) with its Motion Control Engine is significant. Certainly more than enough for it not to be called Motif XYZ.

Likewise, the change in focus and concept in GENOS over the focus and direction of Tyros is just as significant and profound, certainly enough to warranty a series name change. Of significance, the video of the Nashville songwriter (Beth Nielsen Chapman), who can quickly recall a general music genre, then start to customize details of the accompaniment. It maybe hard to translate but the interaction between the musical Parts is much more controllable. These moveable parts can inspire those who write music for a living.

If you are an “Arranger person” that does the traditional “Arranger” thing - creating real time backing tracks on a high level... then you’ll understand what’s happening in GENOS, you’ll understand where it is built up from... you’ll also see that as a writer of songs, GENOS becomes an unbelievable resource of musical content, stretching across recent music history... inspiring accompaniment. Sonically breath taking, of course.

Like in MONTAGE, if you get into constructing, for lack of a better term, ‘musical montages’ that include multiple Parts, multiple arpeggios, Motion Sequences, etc... when designing sounds, you can create these incredible sound scapes that are compelling, inspiring. Breath taking. (I get calls from folks who get lost in the ‘Tage for hours at a time... it can be inspiring)!

If your writing music for hire, jingles, pop tunes, etc. having a GENOS as a tool would make sense... just how quickly can one put together an authentic sounding 60’s or 80’s track?
If your writing music for hire, and your clients are looking for sci-fi, or music for games and gaming consoles, a MONTAGE would would make sense... “... can you make me the sound of ping-pong balls bouncing on clouds?”

Focus of the content, flexibility of what and how you get involved in editing, reformatting, customizing the content that is provided... these are the things to consider between the two instruments. The two instruments are very, very different when viewed this way. If your only concern is which has the best piano sound... we can talk about that when we decide if coke is better than pepsi... it’s important to buy the instrument because it meets your requirements.

Those are broad strokes. Is there a customer overlap? Of course. Could you justify having both, sure. Are they the same? No. Will you recognize certain items/functions/features reshaped/reformatted in each, sure... it is the same company. But try to see the FOCUS each has, then see if what you do now fits. If not, see if what is on offer (which the company surely thinks is “new”) is actually some thing you may never have seen or used before. But don’t dismiss it based only on what you already know or have used in the past. If that is all you have to offer (it’s just less interesting in the discussion) I guess I’m trying to say don’t dismiss something without giving it a fair chance.

If you can’t afford both, not to worry, you have a lot of company, there. But if you make a living writing music, the technology in these two products represent the cutting edge - each has a focus... one on do-it-yourself sound design, the other toward the craft of writing songs.

If that’s not what you do, sticking with what works for you is not a bad thing, no need to apologize when a new product is not for you.
The focus of the Motif series was based around the ISS approach to music assembly... sampling and sequencing, both separately and together.
The focus of Tyros series was based around the real time song performance... live interaction with the tech to construct/arrange a song.
The new focus of MONTAGE is based on creative sound design utilizing the previous series' tech and combining it with an FM-X engine. Interaction between the engines is achieved via a new controller matrix that includes motion control, side chain modulation, etc,. The focus of GENOS is based on the real time song construction concept of its previous series, but with a greater concentration (focus) on fashioning an inspiring backing environment in which to write songs.

This is not to say that any of these products can’t move in many directions, and nothing says you can’t use them to do what they are not necessarily focused on... these are broad general strokes. The devil is in the details and the details are going to be slightly different for each of us.

The GENOS is not a synthesizer (reason it is not included here on Yamaha Synth), not like the MONTAGE is a synthesizer.
Editing at the Element level is not something you’ll expect to see ... selecting which Element sounds *when*, is not something you’ll expect to see... if you know Synthesizers you know MONTAGE is a synthesizer.
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Offline ugawoga

Re: Genos vs Montage
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2017, 12:52:19 AM »
Hi Bachus

Combine the Genos with Vst Instruments , the sky Is the limit.
You can put together that 50s,60s,70s 80s sound and ping pong from cloud to another In a stereo soundscape.
We just have to get our imagination heads on :P
 

Offline DavidB

Re: Genos vs Montage
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2017, 01:15:14 AM »
Also posted by pjd in this thread...

https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,40236.0.html

He makes perfect sense to me.

Regards,
Just don't mention Genos USB drive letter assignments :)
 

Offline Bachus

Re: Genos vs Montage
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2017, 02:41:01 AM »
Hi Bachus

Combine the Genos with Vst Instruments , the sky Is the limit.
You can put together that 50s,60s,70s 80s sound and ping pong from cloud to another In a stereo soundscape.
We just have to get our imagination heads on :P

Except that it looks like you have no integration with the VSTs, and in the prliminary reference manual you could not assign midi cc to knobs slideres and assignable buttons..  also there is no way to send audio over usb.. which would help hugely for vst integration...

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Offline Tommy 73

Re: Genos vs Montage
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2017, 02:45:16 AM »
I see them both for what they are and according to your own personal abilities and what you won't form either will determine if you buy one or the other or both.. if there are to be any over laps with any comparisons all you can do is study them both and spend time with them... not to try to play one off against the other... so here are some organs on Montage...not bad  https://youtu.be/z-1C3bFdxac
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 12:54:35 PM by Tommy 73 »
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Offline ash1

Re: Genos vs Montage
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2017, 02:46:39 AM »
get yourself a midi controller and avenger vst
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IswmvtQGWW4
that makes montage look pretty average
for what it is just my thoughts on a montage
i would buy the avenger  and the Genos over the montage any day of the week
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 03:42:30 AM by ash1 »
 

Offline CalUKGR

Re: Genos vs Montage
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2017, 02:54:41 AM »
Except that it looks like you have no integration with the VSTs, and in the prliminary reference manual you could not assign midi cc to knobs slideres and assignable buttons..  also there is no way to send audio over usb.. which would help hugely for vst integration...

At the moment I have my Tyros 5 connected to a Focusrite 2i2 audio interface - the 2i2 takes the audio from my VSTi synths in Cubase and feeds them into the Tyros 5 audio Ins. I monitor both the Tyros 5 and the incoming audio from Cubase on the T5's own headphone socket. I then record all audio (incoming VSTi's from Cubase and T5's internal sounds) directly onto the T5's HDD. I imagine it's going to be exactly the same set-up for the new Genos I'm awaiting delivery of.

How would having the Genos's audio sent via USB into the 2i2 (and then recording audio from within Cubase) change things? What advantages would there be for me?
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 02:56:51 AM by CalUKGR »
Yamaha Genos | Roland A-800 Pro | Cubase 9 Elements | Spectrasonics: Omnisphere, Keyscape & Stylus RMX | Arturia Spark 2 | Yamaha APX 700II 12-String Acoustic-Electric Guitar
 

Offline ugawoga

Re: Genos vs Montage
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2017, 02:56:54 AM »
I have a Focusrite  Scarlett 6i6 and a Phatboy controller which still works great and using Vst with the tyros 5 is a breeze.
You can assign the vst sound to a channel that does not interfere with the Styles and bobs yer uncle you have  Tyros style with vst leads.
The controller mainly used with Sonar Platinum for recording multitrack.
So I reckon Combining Vst with the genos would be great for multitracking in a daw
Audio is in blocks anyway or samples which can be slotted in
You can also send a midi song to your daw and convert to Audio within the program If you wish,no problem.

That's my simple way of explaining It as I am not a geek!! :P

The only drawback with the Tyros 5 is that SY Ex does not match Sonar very well (Communicado) and glitches occur, but there are workarounds.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 03:05:08 AM by ugawoga »
 

Offline ash1

Re: Genos vs Montage
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2017, 03:10:20 AM »
i have the push 2 the tyros 5 the maudio fast track ultra
for keyboard i use the arturia minilab 25
daws ableton9 bitwig 2
and plenty of vst like avenger kick2 battery 4 etc
with that lot the sky is the limit you can make anything the montage has to offer the montage is a great synth sounds great
but a good cheap controller keyboard and vst like avenger and the like blow it out the water yeeeeeeeeehhaaaaa boom ding we uoahd zzzzzzz :P ::) :-X :-[ :o >:( ;D :) ;) :-* :'(
Genos v montage mmm GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGEEEEEEEEEEEEEENNNNNNNNNNNNNNNOSSSS SSSSSSSSSSSSS LOL
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 03:49:12 AM by ash1 »
 

Offline Tommy 73

Re: Genos vs Montage
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2017, 04:41:25 AM »
get yourself a midi controller and avenger vst
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IswmvtQGWW4
that makes montage look pretty average
for what it is just my thoughts on a montage
i would buy the avenger  and the Genos over the montage any day of the week
You may very well think that but I could not possibly comment but I am glad you are enjoying your software as I am my Montage....P.s. and not forgetting looking fwd to trying out Genos  8)
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 04:48:26 AM by Tommy 73 »
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Offline DerekA

Re: Genos vs Montage
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2017, 05:00:52 AM »
He says 'the change in focus and concept in GENOS over the focus and direction of Tyros is just as significant and profound'.

I don't think that this change is really coming over in any of the demo material we've seen so far, I'm not really clear what it is.

The nearest I think I can grasp at is, are they making style assembly / mixing in multipads more of a focus rather than just accepting the built in styles? Assembly is a bit fiddly on PSR / Tyros, is that now so simple that you can just do it on the fly as the inspiration strikes?

Offline ash1

Re: Genos vs Montage
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2017, 05:01:14 AM »
hi Tommy 73   :-X  ;D very nice answer  :)

Re: Genos vs Montage
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2017, 06:03:24 AM »
get yourself a midi controller and avenger vst
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IswmvtQGWW4
that makes montage look pretty average
for what it is just my thoughts on a montage
i would buy the avenger  and the Genos over the montage any day of the week

There is a lot of things that i like about this instrument
But it misses the Montage's versatile arp section
There is nothing that even comes close to the Montage arps
Not in hardware (Korg Karma is very different), not in software
The arps in this VST, are basic synth arps.
The arps in montage are much much more diverse then just basic synth arps

Montage however would make the perfect controller for these kind of vst's
because you would still have all the greatness of Montage with these sounds on top of it.

Needless to say, that you would need an arranger on top of that, for playing styles..
Now if in the future they added features like the daw integration of montage to the Genos
And turned the ARP section into a semi pro version of the montage
Then you could also use the Genos as the perfect VST controller.
 

Offline Eric, B

Re: Genos vs Montage
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2017, 11:17:51 AM »
This is a copy from yamaha’s synthwebsite of a statement by Yamaha’s moderator bad Mister..  i think there are quite some things that can be learned from this about yanaha’s stance towards the Genos

Great write up Bachus.
Thanks
Eric
Genos, Tyros4, PSR-S970
 

Offline Joe H

Re: Genos vs Montage
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2017, 11:58:37 AM »
This is a copy from yamaha’s synthwebsite of a statement by Yamaha’s moderator bad Mister..  i think there are quite some things that can be learned from this about yanaha’s stance towards the Genos

It seems to me the big change is in the hardware for both the Montage and Genos.  Having seen several firmware updates for the Montage adding new features and sounds.  We will have to wait to see if Yamaha offers the same for the Genos... that would be a major change for the arranger line.

Much was ported over from the Motif to the Montage.  The OS of the Genos is for the most part the same as past arrangers... with some minor additions, which is normal.  The Genos is still the familiar arranger we all know, with some hardware upgrades that are significant and will undoubtedly lead to new capabilities with future arranger releases. 

I suspect the next top PSR will have incremental changes like more DSP Types and double the expansion memory... and maybe the Genos Arps.

PS:  Three Live Control Knobs and a Ribbon Controller would be nice; No speakers and the Genos 6 knobs and 9 faders would be even better.   ;D

Joe H
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 12:01:04 PM by Joe H »
Music is the Universal Language!

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Re: Genos vs Montage
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2017, 04:26:52 PM »
I'm a long time reader of this forum and a recently joined member. This is Phil's response to my question. Phil Clendeninn (which I'm grateful for him enormously), puts a great amount of effort (and love) to answer most of the questions at yamahasynth.com. The respect I have for him is beyond imagination.

My last Yamaha arranger was PSR-740 (I was very young at that time) and I always dreamt of making similar songs to the demos just by using the keyboard. But I never managed to do that. It has been a "long time" since I haven't touched a Yamaha arranger.

The original question started by saying something like this:

Quote
Isn't an arranger supposed to be superior in arranging music and a synth superior in synthesizing voices?

I'm still waiting to see what arrangement capabilities Genos has in comparison to an arranger like Casio MZ X500 or Korg's KAOSS system.

Many MOTIF owners wished that SA2 Voices appear in MONTAGE as well as a proper drawbar organ similar to Tyros and Genos plus few other features, but they never happened.

Of course, I have successfully managed to create decent organ sounds on MOTIF myself, it is still a lot of work and is not as modular as a drawbar organ set up in Tyros and Genos.

I hope you obtained some insight about where Yamaha is going by this question. Have wonderful times.
Yamaha MOTIF XF, Casio PX-150, Yamaha WX5, Yamaha Pacifica 112v
 

Offline pjd

Re: Genos vs Montage
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2017, 06:11:33 PM »
Many MOTIF owners wished that SA2 Voices appear in MONTAGE as well as a proper drawbar organ similar to Tyros and Genos plus few other features, but they never happened.

Of course, I have successfully managed to create decent organ sounds on MOTIF myself, it is still a lot of work and is not as modular as a drawbar organ set up in Tyros and Genos.

Amen!!!

-- pj
 

Offline maartenb

Re: Genos vs Montage
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2017, 01:00:12 AM »
are they making style assembly / mixing in multipads more of a focus rather than just accepting the built in styles?
Assembly is a bit fiddly on PSR / Tyros, is that now so simple that you can just do it on the fly as the inspiration strikes?

Yes, this part about assembly is exactly my impression. The Genos holds more MultiPads than the T5. And, they are far more accessible: they are stored in categories and are much easier to find. The strum guitar MPs are cool for creating backing tracks and can even be played with the right hand (see the Martin Harris demo for Sweetwater).
(WAIT, WHAT? I tried to include a link to the Sweetwater video, but I can't find it anymore on YouTube...?? Link thanks to DavidB)

I'd really like to try this out for myself...


Maarten
« Last Edit: October 12, 2017, 02:49:25 AM by maartenb »
 

Offline DavidB

Re: Genos vs Montage
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2017, 01:17:06 AM »
Just don't mention Genos USB drive letter assignments :)
 
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Offline Bachus

Re: Genos vs Montage
« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2017, 01:34:03 AM »
Yes, this part about assembly is exactly my impression. The Genos holds more MultiPads than the T5. And, they are far more accessible: they are stored in categories and are much easier to find. The strum guitar MPs are cool for creating backing tracks and can even be played with the right hand (see the Martin Harris demo for Sweetwater).
(WAIT, WHAT? I tried to include a link to the Sweetwater video, but I can't find it anymore on YouTube...??)

I'd really like to try this out for myself...


Maarten

I asumed he was using a guitar arp for the right hand.. which also works extraordinary well for creating a strumming pattern... even better, with a strumming arp, you have real time controll over the pattern
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Offline maartenb

Re: Genos vs Montage
« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2017, 02:47:28 AM »
I asumed he was using a guitar arp for the right hand.. which also works extraordinary well for creating a strumming pattern... even better, with a strumming arp, you have real time controll over the pattern

Ah, yes, you are right. Thx!


Maarten