Author Topic: How does the 256 Polyphony operate on Genos?  (Read 1472 times)

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Offline jwyvern

How does the 256 Polyphony operate on Genos?
« on: October 02, 2017, 08:23:37 AM »
In the official specs. polyphony is quoted as 256, but as often happens there is a qualification which says:
Presets 128, Expansion 128.
Can anyone explain what are the implications? For instance if we are only using preset voices (which means new Genos ones or Legacy voice setups from previous Tyros's) will we see no benefit?
If we want to play large arrangements with plenty of manual or effects sustain or plenty of polyphony-hungry voices, without running into drop outs, do we have to mix preset and expansion voices within a registration to get the benefit of 256 polyphony? It seems somewhat restrictive.
John
 

Offline jimlaing

Re: How does the 256 Polyphony operate on Genos?
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2017, 10:52:40 AM »
[moving my note here]: I noticed this in the Specs:

Polyphony - "256 (max.) (128 for Preset Voice + 128 for Expansion Voice)"

So, since all built-in styles will likely use Preset voices, and I'd probably use Preset voices
for most things in a registration setup ... this means I'm still at 128 Polyphony?   And the other 128 voices
of polyphony are only for Expansion voices?

I had hoped that the 256 would be "freely usable" for any voice.  I'm not very likely to use
a LOT of expansion voices at any given time, but I do use the Preset voices for ~95% of everything.
I also use the V-Console, so I use more polyphony (when I do layering of additional voices via V-Console),
and was hoping I had 256 to 'play with', but I really only have 128, and a few more for any
Expansion voice I happen to use ???

OR maybe I'm understanding this wrong from the "256 (max.) (128 for Preset Voice + 128 for Expansion Voice)"
in the specs.

Comments?
Jim
Modify message
Raleigh, NC, USA / Genos / Tyros5-61 / Lucas Nana 600 / other stuff
 

Offline pjd

Re: How does the 256 Polyphony operate on Genos?
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2017, 01:47:48 PM »
[moving my note here]: I noticed this in the Specs:

Polyphony - "256 (max.) (128 for Preset Voice + 128 for Expansion Voice)"

Comments?

Hi Jim --

This one has me a little baffled, too. I would really like to see Yamaha's explanation.

-- pj
 

Offline Joe H

Re: How does the 256 Polyphony operate on Genos?
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2017, 01:55:27 PM »
Hi Jim --

This one has me a little baffled, too. I would really like to see Yamaha's explanation.

-- pj

pj,

Separate TG for the expansion Voices?

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline pjd

Re: How does the 256 Polyphony operate on Genos?
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2017, 02:06:10 PM »
pj,

Separate TG for the expansion Voices?

Joe H

Hi Joe --

I thought of that, but I cannot for any earthly reason determine "Why?" Good comment and another reason why I'm baffled.

Take care -- pj
 

Offline Joe H

Re: How does the 256 Polyphony operate on Genos?
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2017, 03:45:00 PM »
pj,

Maybe a new design approach that would allow even much larger polyphony in the future. 

 ???

Joe H
« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 07:45:29 AM by Joe H »
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline tyrosaurus

Re: How does the 256 Polyphony operate on Genos?
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2017, 03:49:06 PM »
I would really like to see Yamaha's explanation.

Come on pj! This is Yamaha (Arranger Div'n.).  ::)

There may be a good reason for this (as well as using potentiometers/sliders instead of encoders!), but when have Yamaha ever felt the need to explain anything to their customers?

They know that they have enough 'fanboys/fangirls' to maintain their sales, no matter what they do!

I would have settled for a smaller increase to say, 192 notes total polyphony, if it was shared amongst all types of voices.  It would be very interesting and revealing if there was a real time indication of polyphony usage in a keyboard's display. I'm sure that many people don't realise just how much can be used up, even in what seems like simple arrangements, especially when a style, sustained voices using Right hand multi-note harmony, a 'held' Left Voice, and MIDI Multi Pads are used simultaneously!

This 128 + 128 doesn't seem to offer anything much to help many users.  As well as a similar 'trick' in the Montage (which is explained), the specifications for the CVP-609/709 also state 256 Max. (although for the CVP-605 it just says 256!), which I assume is evenly split between the Piano sounds and the rest of the voices.  All that is needed is a simple explanation why, but of course nothing from them!  It's as if they see having to explain or justify something as being akin to loosing face!

I also wonder how many of their 'knowledgeable' dealers will tell customers that the polyphony is 256 (in line with the '256 (max)' in the 'Vital Specs' section of the Genos brochure, which is likely to be where the majority of them will get their 'facts' from), and just leave it at that!

I will wait for the release of the manuals (and maybe even the first firmware update, whichever comes sooner  ;)) before deciding whether it's even worth the long journey to audition a Genos, but from what (little) I have seen so far, I am not exactly 'chomping at the bit' to get my hands on one!


Regards

Ian


Offline Joe H

Re: How does the 256 Polyphony operate on Genos?
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2017, 04:00:31 PM »
And as Ian suggests regarding using up polyphony... that 300kb sequencer is way under-sized for the Genos.  Once you add 32nd and 16th note arps... those notes / MIDI events will add up quickly.

But I think this could be corrected with a firmware update... oh but Hmm, when was the last time Yamaha did a firmware update to improve an arranger?  I think PSR 9000 Pro.  What year was that anyway?

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline valio7771

Re: How does the 256 Polyphony operate on Genos?
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2017, 05:16:55 PM »
Well, following this logic of shared polyphony, that'll make my 17 years old 9000Pro a 384 note polyphonic keyboard.
128 for the Preset voices, plus 128 for each of the 2 PLG boards....talking about progress after 17 (that's SEVENTEEN) years of improvements?  :-\

To be fair, I do love the way Genos looks and sound like, and I see that there are some improvements after T5, and this is exactly where I see the problem....I've compared it with T5, and I wished if I haven't had enough reasons to do so.
Judging on the superb presentations done by Martin Harris I saw today, I was kinda 'underwhelmed' by Genos. I was expecting that it would chop my head clean off with new set of game changing features that Yamaha will brag about in the face of the competition, different approaches for keyboard that is build for that purpose, something that would make it stay for it's name tha I relay with (Genos=new GENes/GENeration/GENesis), anything but not another 'TyrOS 6', and unfortunately, this exactly what I'm seeing and hearing in Genos right now....just another Tyros 6, and I REALLY wish if I would have never said those words, but I am.

Than, if I've had a T3-T4 or PSR-S970 or lower PSR model, and I was considered on major update over what I currently have, and had the money for it....I would have jumped strait ahead for the Genos, blind folded, without any shadow of a doubt, on every day of the week. But at this moment, I don't feel like it is worth enough for me updating after T5 at least yet....maybe in another year time or more, I might do it, but definitely not right now.

Just my opinion.

Valentin

Offline pjd

Re: How does the 256 Polyphony operate on Genos?
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2017, 05:33:59 PM »
And as Ian suggests regarding using up polyphony... that 300kb sequencer is way under-sized for the Genos.  Once you add 32nd and 16th note arps... those notes / MIDI events will add up quickly.

But I think this could be corrected with a firmware update... oh but Hmm, when was the last time Yamaha did a firmware update to improve an arranger?  I think PSR 9000 Pro.  What year was that anyway?

Joe H

As Emperor Joseph II told Mozart in "Amadeus, "My dear young man, don't take it too hard. Your work is ingenious. It's quality work. And there are simply too many notes, that's all. Just cut a few and it will be perfect."

-- pj  :)

Offline Joe H

Re: How does the 256 Polyphony operate on Genos?
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2017, 05:49:51 PM »
As Emperor Joseph II told Mozart in "Amadeus, "My dear young man, don't take it too hard. Your work is ingenious. It's quality work. And there are simply too many notes, that's all. Just cut a few and it will be perfect."

-- pj  :)

LOL

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline voodoo

Re: How does the 256 Polyphony operate on Genos?
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2017, 06:00:21 AM »
Hi Joe --

I thought of that, but I cannot for any earthly reason determine "Why?" Good comment and another reason why I'm baffled.

Take care -- pj

My old Yamaha TG500 had 2 banks of samples each allowing 32 voices, 64 voices in total. So Yamaha already had this design that a block of wave memory is connected to one sound generator. I guess it is the same here. Perhaps the preset voices wave mem maxed out the first tone generator?

Pj?
Yamaha Genos (finally)
Nord Electro 5D
 

Offline pjd

Re: How does the 256 Polyphony operate on Genos?
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2017, 07:01:00 AM »
Hi folks --

I'm going to write up a longer explanation, but here's a short answer for users (normal human beings): The polyphony specifications say exactly what it means.

Kari V, Mihai and Joe H, thank you all! I'm sorry that I didn't grasp what you were trying to tell me! Apologies!

For the hardware inclined, here's a short speculative answer. Two tone generator ICs each their own ONFI flash memory. One TG and flash memory (call this one "TG A") handles factory presets. The other TG and flash memory (call this "TG B") handles user expansion voices.

The "TG B" flash memory is 64GBytes of ONFI NAND flash. Through software, it is partitioned into a file system partition (62GB?) and a user expansion voice partition (2GB).

The file system partition contains the initial factory content (4GB). The remaining space (58GB) is the "Internal Memory."

So, Yamaha engineering heard Kari  :) and decided to use space in one of the ONFI flash memories to cut the weight and expense of a magnetic hard drive (heavy) or an SSD (lighter than a hard drive, but not cheap).

If this is true -- if -- then there are some positive implications and possibly some shade to be thrown on Yamaha. More at another time and place.

Ingenious, yes. User expandable, no.

Do I know this for sure? Oh, hell no. We need a service manual. Even a visual inspection of the digital logic (DM) board might not be conclusive.

This one kept me awake last night -- pj

Offline Joe H

Re: How does the 256 Polyphony operate on Genos?
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2017, 07:54:17 AM »
... Kari V, Mihai and Joe H, thank you all! I'm sorry that I didn't grasp what you were trying to tell me! Apologies!...

Senior moment?  We'll let it slide... This Time!

 ;D    ;D    ;D

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline Joe H

Re: How does the 256 Polyphony operate on Genos?
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2017, 08:04:40 AM »
... Maybe they will start selling other tone engines like fm, va, vl for the expansion ship (This of course is highly speculative)

We have already discussed this concept.  Either software plug-ins or new plug-in technology allowing us to add FM, Analog, VL, etc.

That would be a real winner for me... all synths in one box.  But Yamaha would need to bring back a 'new improved"  BC2 Breath Controller
(BC3 is a bad design) and BC jack on the arranger keyboard.

Joe H
« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 08:06:41 AM by Joe H »
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline pjd

Re: How does the 256 Polyphony operate on Genos?
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2017, 09:14:06 AM »
This would comply to what i know from the Montage

It also has 2 tone generators each with 128 voice polyphony
One for the awm2 voices
The other one currently only used for FM voices..

Maybe yamaha knows something we domt know..
Maybe they will start selling other tone engines like fm, va, vl for the expansion ship
(This offcourse is highly speculative)

Hi Bachus --

Yep, every TOTL Yamaha synth and arranger has two tone generation ICs. The Montage design is unique in that the second TG, presumably FM, doesn't have any waveform memory -- just DSP working SDRAM. (Source: Montage service manual.)

Use of ONFI this way is innovative. I also agree that Yamaha knows something that we don't. Will there be a future update/upgrade with full audio styles? The new platform could be ready for that.

Phil Clendeninn made a cryptic remark when I met him last summer. Something like "There is a lot of power there to be unlocked." The SWP70 will be Yamaha's TG for the next 8 years and I'm sure they have a feature roadmap extending out 3 to 5 years or longer.

All the best -- pj

Offline pjd

Re: How does the 256 Polyphony operate on Genos?
« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2017, 06:58:21 AM »
I posted a longer expanded version of my hypothesis at:

http://sandsoftwaresound.net/genos-internal-mem-speculation/

There decision has some interesting implications for the future. Still thinking about this...

-- pj

Offline Marcus

Re: How does the 256 Polyphony operate on Genos?
« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2017, 07:22:06 AM »
I posted a longer expanded version of my hypothesis at:

http://sandsoftwaresound.net/genos-internal-mem-speculation/

There decision has some interesting implications for the future. Still thinking about this...

-- pj
Interesting read. I believe that Tyros 5 internal memory, spec’ed at approximately 6.7MBytes — some form of non-volatile flash — you mention in your article might refer to the chip inside the Tyros 5 that holds the memory for the 6 or 7 capacity expansion audio styles you load to your Tyros 5 by means of the YEM. Once loaded to your Tyros 5 Expansion Folder, they are instantly available.

I still like and enjoy the realism and "feel" of the Audio Styles, but really happy they are being converted to the Genos Revo drums. The vocal inflections and other sound effects within the audio drum track , however will obviously be removed from the original Audio Styles and replaced with only drum kit instruments within a Revo kit (for example the R&BSlowBallad audio style had gently crashing wave effects in the audio track). This leaves more flexibility and editing in Style Creator, plus the new reformatted Audio Style can now be shared, unlike the Tyros 5 where Audio style saves could not be shared, but limited to the User Drive.

Marcus
Gear: Triangle
 

Offline jwyvern

Re: How does the 256 Polyphony operate on Genos?
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2017, 09:15:00 AM »
Hi pjd,
I found your technical thoughts interesting too, although cannot pretend to understand all the detail you went into. Thanks ;)
Just a few more thoughts on polyphony:
One of the most poly-hungry circumstances will be with use of the piano (sustain pedal, DSP etc. handfuls of chords etc.). Arguably Polyphony workload for piano has gone up on Genos with the innovations but the numerical Polyphony has stayed the same old boring 128 despite some of the Genos reviewers with no eye for detail waxing lyrical about the 256 total figure!
Also it's not clear to me what is regarded by the voice system as "Expansion- 128". If you create YEM voices (up to now called Expansion voices)  but they contain elements from existing presets (as is possible on Tyros) will they still be treated as if they are Preset voices for polyphony calculations and therefore be lumped within the 128 poly instead of 128+128?
Maybe Expansion voices in this context refer only to those which contain external wavs saved in the actual Expansion memory. Trying to read between the lines it would appear this is the case, meaning the possibility of gaining extra polyphony (max 128+128) through mixing voice types is further limited.
Does that seem to make sense or is there something in the workings (of ONFI etc. ::) :))) I have missed?   
John   
« Last Edit: October 04, 2017, 09:20:14 AM by jwyvern »
 

Offline Joe H

Re: How does the 256 Polyphony operate on Genos?
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2017, 11:29:49 AM »
Paul,

We are lucky to have you around... and you thought you retired from teaching?   ;D

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline Marcus

Re: How does the 256 Polyphony operate on Genos?
« Reply #20 on: October 04, 2017, 11:39:02 AM »
Nice and interesting read Paul, you definately have a lot of technical knowledge to share..
Thanks also for great knowledge and help from you, Bachus, pj, Joe, John and others. Most of us certainly might know more about our arranger keyboards then some of the dealers we buy from ( excluding some dealer input in this forum who are very helpful -Frank). It is useful to help us make informed decisions as well as everyone's feedback.

Then combined forum knowledge and experiences help each other decipher these complex arrangers and features to our benefit. Manuals only help so far. Well, maybe an actual Genos manual could help a lot now.

Marcus
Gear: Triangle
 

Offline Joe H

Re: How does the 256 Polyphony operate on Genos?
« Reply #21 on: October 04, 2017, 12:02:06 PM »
If anyone has concerns about my position... This a great forum and Yamaha makes great arranger keyboards.  Excuse me for being so detailed.. I was just born that way.

 ;)

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline Joe H

Re: How does the 256 Polyphony operate on Genos?
« Reply #22 on: October 04, 2017, 12:09:59 PM »
I don't trust you Bachus... just send me the manual.

 ;D    ;D    ;D

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline voodoo

Re: How does the 256 Polyphony operate on Genos?
« Reply #23 on: October 04, 2017, 12:16:28 PM »
I can asure you, you will not find much in the manuall that hasnt been explained here..  somehow i got my hands on an early version of the Refferemce manuall, feel free to ask me anything you want to know...

Ok. I will.

Is there mono legato in the voice set?

Can multi pad play two waves at the same time?

Can media player load two midis at the same time (but play only one at a time)?

What parameters are assignable to the sliders and knobs? Should be listed in the reference manual.

Uli
Yamaha Genos (finally)
Nord Electro 5D
 

Offline pjd

Re: How does the 256 Polyphony operate on Genos?
« Reply #24 on: October 04, 2017, 01:08:31 PM »
Thanks also for great knowledge and help from you, Bachus, pj, Joe, John and others. Most of us certainly might know more about our arranger keyboards then some of the dealers we buy from ( excluding some dealer input in this forum who are very helpful -Frank). It is useful to help us make informed decisions as well as everyone's feedback.

Then combined forum knowledge and experiences help each other decipher these complex arrangers and features to our benefit. Manuals only help so far. Well, maybe an actual Genos manual could help a lot now.

Marcus

Hi --

I'd like to thank everyone, too. And, Marcus, your explanations and help are primo.

-- pj
 

Offline voodoo

Re: How does the 256 Polyphony operate on Genos?
« Reply #25 on: October 04, 2017, 01:25:31 PM »
Mono legato... not edditable in the genos... should wayt for yem to see if you can make voices with this feature

Onlyn1 pad can be played at once

You can load only 1 midi file, the other has to be an audio file

There are 32 different parameters you can assign to knobs or sliders
To many to type... but if you want to know a specific parameter feel free to ask.

And domt forget its an early draft version, things like the parameters are certainly subject to change, i expect even more parameters to be on the list at release

Oh thanks, that helps. Although the answers are not very positive....

Asking for a specific parameter: is there any kind of DSP parameter? The XG DSP parameter list contains a variable parameter for each DSP type (marked with =) that is designed to be controlled in real time. Like "Drive" of an amp, "rate" of a delay etc. But PSR/Tyros ignored this in the implementation. Only real time parameter so far was WAH pedal, nothing else. Has Genos any DSP real time DSP parameter tweaking for assignables?

Thanks for your always constructive comments and help, Bachus.

Uli
Yamaha Genos (finally)
Nord Electro 5D
 

Offline voodoo

Re: How does the 256 Polyphony operate on Genos?
« Reply #26 on: October 04, 2017, 01:38:19 PM »
Grrrr  :-[

Yamaha will never change policy. Even at this price point. This makes me a little disappointed.

However, I ordered already.  8)

(And hoping for Genos 2,  to be disappointed again....)
Yamaha Genos (finally)
Nord Electro 5D
 

Offline Marcus

Re: How does the 256 Polyphony operate on Genos?
« Reply #27 on: October 04, 2017, 01:41:20 PM »
I can asure you, you will not find much in the manuall that hasnt been explained here..  somehow i got my hands on an early version of the Refferemce manuall, feel free to ask me anything you want to know...

Greatly appreciated if there was "any" reference to adding User Audio loops/files to a style channel?

Any mention to changes to the VH2 Vocal Harmony processor beyond just a few more presets?

Lastly, how comprehensive would be the YEM, especially with Voice and Drum kit creation/editing?

...with increased DSP insertion effects. Does that mean smooth transitions between voice changes while playing?

Hope your manual isn't in Japanese and requires Google Translate  ::).

Thanks a million if you can shed some light on these areas. More than likely I'll order a Genos, mostly because of the sound, sound, sound. That is the number one.

Marcus
« Last Edit: October 04, 2017, 01:43:39 PM by Marcus »
Gear: Triangle
 

Offline voodoo

Re: How does the 256 Polyphony operate on Genos?
« Reply #28 on: October 04, 2017, 02:20:56 PM »
Last question to Bachus:

Is mfc10 support listed in the manual?

Uli
Yamaha Genos (finally)
Nord Electro 5D
 

Offline Joe H

Re: How does the 256 Polyphony operate on Genos?
« Reply #29 on: October 04, 2017, 03:01:48 PM »
well another answer you will not like

The only dsp are reverb and chorus send vallues for each channel

Maybe the guy who designed the Genos was drunk at the time.  Now we are going backwards.

 :D

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline jwyvern

Re: How does the 256 Polyphony operate on Genos?
« Reply #30 on: October 05, 2017, 02:11:23 AM »
well another answer you will not like

The only dsp are reverb and chorus send vallues for each channel

It looks as if they are making the simple Mixing Console parameters assignable to knobs or sliders  such as the above System effects which are present in MC. Anything more ambitious with DSP's seems to be left to finding it in the screen and altering it there. Hopefully that will still be more immediate and less clunky using the touch screen (with its assignable menu buttons) than the old Tyros button pushing methods. We will see  ::)
John
« Last Edit: October 05, 2017, 02:13:34 AM by jwyvern »
 

Offline voodoo

Re: How does the 256 Polyphony operate on Genos?
« Reply #31 on: October 05, 2017, 02:39:27 AM »
It looks as if they are making the simple Mixing Console parameters assignable to knobs or sliders  such as the above System effects which are present in MC. Anything more ambitious with DSP's seems to be left to finding it in the screen and altering it there. Hopefully that will still be more immediate and less clunky using the touch screen (with its assignable menu buttons) than the old Tyros button pushing methods. We will see  ::)
John

Yes exactly. I see that the assignable buttons to the right can lead me directly to the DSP setup where I can use the data dial to change the specific parameter. But that's only a plan B. ;)
Yamaha Genos (finally)
Nord Electro 5D
 

Offline pjd

Re: How does the 256 Polyphony operate on Genos?
« Reply #32 on: October 05, 2017, 07:05:54 AM »
Hi John --

Dude, I have got to answer this right now. The flood of messages into the Forum is just too fast to read!

Quote
Also it's not clear to me what is regarded by the voice system as "Expansion- 128". If you create YEM voices (up to now called Expansion voices)  but they contain elements from existing presets (as is possible on Tyros) will they still be treated as if they are Preset voices for polyphony calculations and therefore be lumped within the 128 poly instead of 128+128?

Maybe Expansion voices in this context refer only to those which contain external waves saved in the actual Expansion memory. Trying to read between the lines it would appear this is the case, meaning the possibility of gaining extra polyphony (max 128+128) through mixing voice types is further limited.

Does that seem to make sense or is there something in the workings (of ONFI etc. ::) :))) I have missed?

It's not so much an ONFI-specific issue as to the way the tone generator chips are interconnected and whether they can share waveform samples.

The old interconnection topology (T5 and earlier) allowed two tone generators to share the same waveform memory. Conceivably, a layered voice could split tones between the two TGs. In this case, the combined polyphony of the TGs is additive, so 128+128 really did equal 256.

I haven't seen a tandem combination of the new SWP70 tone generators with shared memory. The true authoritative source will be the Genos service manual. Montage is not a good example because AWM2 is synthesized in one TG chip and FM-X is synthesized in the other TG chip. (Or so I believe.)

For now, I think Yamaha mean exactly what they say in the spec.

All that said, your questions and "use cases" are interesting and practical. I think only Yamaha can answer. If waveforms cannot be shared between TGs, then preset tones need to be routed to the TG with factory waveforms and the user tones need to be routed to the TG with expansion memory. Yeeeeeeeeeeee!

In your PM, you mentioned CVP. The latest service manual that I have is CVP-609. High end CVP is different because there are three (3) TG chips. In the 609, one TG is clearly piano (inferred from wave memory size) and there is a separate TG pair for the Tyros voices. The pair share a common wave memory (tandem structure).

Given the different topology in CVP-609 and its use of the old generation TG, it's hard to draw any conclusions about Genos. I believe that Genos piano polyphony will be similar to Montage: 128 voices AWM. Resonance-wise, Genos likely uses the Motif-legacy damper resonance algorithm, not VRM. Virtual Resonance Modelling is computation heavy and will probably remain a product differentiator for CLP and CVP.

Hope this helps even though it's inconclusive!

All the best -- pj

P.S. Those are terrific observations, BTW.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2017, 10:05:38 AM by pjd »
 

Offline Joe H

Re: How does the 256 Polyphony operate on Genos?
« Reply #33 on: October 05, 2017, 07:41:51 AM »
... What parameters are assignable to the sliders and knobs? Should be listed in the reference manual.

Uli

As far as I can tell, it's the same Live Control parameters we have on the S970 and that's it.  Big improvement... but rather limiting for TOTL arranger.

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline voodoo

Re: How does the 256 Polyphony operate on Genos?
« Reply #34 on: October 05, 2017, 07:45:33 AM »
If waveforms cannot be shared between TGs, then preset tones need to be routed to the TG with factory waveforms and the user tones need to be routed to the TG with expansion memory. Yeeeeeeeeeeee!

But then, they could have divided the factory waveform to both areas, as done with then TG500. In the mix, we had 256 voices then.....
Yamaha Genos (finally)
Nord Electro 5D
 

Offline Marcus

Re: How does the 256 Polyphony operate on Genos?
« Reply #35 on: October 05, 2017, 08:31:58 AM »
I remember seeing the Genos article from Kekboardmag (see link below) and then some copies excerpts with my added comments. Clearly it mentions, "with 256 notes of true stereo polyphony, available notes will never be cut in half...". If incorrect or not accurate implying the doubling of polyphony, Yamaha would of corrected the fact.

Yamaha Announces Genos Performance Keyboard
http://www.keyboardmag.com/gear/1183/yamaha-announces-the-genos-songwriting-and-performance-keyboard/63997

Excerpts:
..."Breathtaking New Sounds

Genos features nearly twice the amount of AWM2 sample ROM as the Tyros5 that chronologically preceded it, including gorgeous new Yamaha CFX and C7 concert grand Voices.

With 256 notes of true stereo polyphony, available notes will never be cut in half just because stereo Voices are in use, and even dense arrangements and performances won’t brush the “ceiling.” Plus, Articulation Element Modeling (AEM) technology automatically chooses the correct instrument articulation (a way an instrument can sound depending on how it is played) in real time according to the player’s keyboard technique: key velocity, tempo, legato versus staccato, and so on. I wonder what stereo voices has to do with true 256 polyphony? Maybe the 128 + 128 is only referring to the fact that the new upgraded 256 stereo polyphony is also true for the stereo sampling?

Audio Quality and Massive Effects Power

Digital-to-analog conversion is the last thing that happens to any digital instrument’s sound before going on to the listening system, and it’s a make-or-break link in the signal chain. That’s why Yamaha used new 32-bit DACs on the main outputs for exceptionally smooth sound. Also included is a S/PDIF digital output for computer recording, providing better-than-CD-quality resolution at 24 bits. I like the upgraded sound quality specs. Never did any serious recording in the past, but now besides live performances I try some quality recording if I get the Genos.

Additional Features and Specifications

FSX semi-weighted premium keyboard action with aftertouch, enhanced touch response for very expressive playing, and high-precision, durable construction.
We have had this debate before with the Tyros and some confusion whether the FSX was considered semi-weighted. The Tyros FSX keybeds are actually synth action, but high quality. Now I have to question the Genos comments referring to the FSX as semi-weighted, plus the reference to enhanced touch response. So I have to beg to question, does the Genos have new semi-weighted action added, especially the fact that the 61 note model was dropped? Probably a bonus for piano players, if true, but I prefer the high quality Tyros action. Aftertouch is fantastic.

Regards Marcus
« Last Edit: October 05, 2017, 08:34:11 AM by Marcus »
Gear: Triangle
 

Offline pjd

Re: How does the 256 Polyphony operate on Genos?
« Reply #36 on: October 05, 2017, 10:10:33 AM »
But then, they could have divided the factory waveform to both areas, as done with then TG500. In the mix, we had 256 voices then.....

Hi Uli --

I'm being conservative and I'm allowing for a whole different interconnection topology with the SWP70. If anybody has the Genos service manual, please let me know.  ;)

I agree. The potential limitation uncovered by John and the underlying topology that it infers are an affront to my sense of elegance.  :D Occam's razor and all that.

All the best -- pj
 

Offline voodoo

Re: How does the 256 Polyphony operate on Genos?
« Reply #37 on: October 05, 2017, 12:26:46 PM »
I wonder what stereo voices has to do with true 256 polyphony? Maybe the 128 + 128 is only referring to the fact that the new upgraded 256 stereo polyphony is also true for the stereo sampling?

No, it's not true 256 polyphony, but true stereo polyphony. Meaning, the number of voice does not differ whether you play mono or stereo voices. (Whatever the number is, here 128 for preset voices.)
Yamaha Genos (finally)
Nord Electro 5D
 

Offline pjd

Re: How does the 256 Polyphony operate on Genos?
« Reply #38 on: October 05, 2017, 12:50:12 PM »
No, it's not true 256 polyphony, but true stereo polyphony. Meaning, the number of voice does not differ whether you play mono or stereo voices. (Whatever the number is, here 128 for preset voices.)

Thanks, Uli!

This has always been a somewhat confusing topic because of the way polyphonic voices are counted. A Tyros (or Motif or Montage) voice consists of up to 8 elements. Assume that only RIGHT1 is enabled and thus, only one Tyros voice is enabled. When a key is struck, the AWM2 engine determines the active elements and assigns each active element to a physical-level, hardware tone generation channel. One or more elements may be active simultaneously for a given note under the assumption.

Assignment and channel use is additive. If RIGHT1 and RIGHT2 are enabled (i.e., two layered voices), then there are one or more active elements from the RIGHT1 voice and one or more active elements from the RIGHT2 voice. This is why layers chew up polyphony.

The number of tone generation channels determines the actual number of active tones playing at any time -- the maximum polyphony.

If you're not confused yet, hold on. In the past, a stereo voice would use two tone generation channels where mono uses one channel.

The way I understand it, is that the new tone generation hardware supports 128 mono/stereo voices (channels) of polyphony. That is, stereo elements get mapped to a stereo channel.

That's actually a pretty big deal and allows greater use of stereo waveforms (samples).

Man, I hope I got that right. When I get some time, I'll dig into it.

-- pj



Offline voodoo

Re: How does the 256 Polyphony operate on Genos?
« Reply #39 on: October 05, 2017, 01:20:03 PM »
Man, I hope I got that right. When I get some time, I'll dig into it.

-- pj

pj,

I am absolutely with you.

Sometimes people ask: why 128 voices, I have only 10 fingers. But if you enable right 1+2+3 with each 8 elements using stereo samples, you get 48 tone generators busy with one key press. :-)

Uli
Yamaha Genos (finally)
Nord Electro 5D
 

Offline jimlaing

Re: How does the 256 Polyphony operate on Genos?
« Reply #40 on: October 11, 2017, 04:57:38 AM »
I'm glad to read about how the new specs seem to be 128 "stereo/mono" (preset) and 128 "stereo/mono" for expansion voices.  At first I thought, 128 - that is what the Tyros5 has - but I see from this discussion that the 128 now refers to stereo samples too ... and there has been discussion here of how on Tyros, a single stereo sample played used 2 voices of polyphony (one for Left, one for Right?) while on Genos, a stereo sample played only uses 1 voice of "stereo" polyphony.

I don't know how many of the sample sets are "Stereo sample sets" on Tyros and Genos, but it's probably a lot of them?  If so, the new Polyphony specs *are* a big deal (in a positive way)!

Hopefully this will go a long way toward reducing the times that notes cut off due to polyphony limitations ... which I definitely had happen plenty of times on Tyros5, especially when using V-Console which allows adding more layers of sound.  Looking forward to Genos with respect to (hopefully) better polyphony capabilities!

Jim
Raleigh, NC, USA / Genos / Tyros5-61 / Lucas Nana 600 / other stuff
 

Offline Marcus

Re: How does the 256 Polyphony operate on Genos?
« Reply #41 on: October 11, 2017, 05:12:05 AM »
I'm glad to read about how the new specs seem to be 128 "stereo/mono" (preset) and 128 "stereo/mono" for expansion voices.  At first I thought, 128 - that is what the Tyros5 has - but I see from this discussion that the 128 now refers to stereo samples too ... and there has been discussion here of how on Tyros, a single stereo sample played used 2 voices of polyphony (one for Left, one for Right?) while on Genos, a stereo sample played only uses 1 voice of "stereo" polyphony.

I don't know how many of the sample sets are "Stereo sample sets" on Tyros and Genos, but it's probably a lot of them?  If so, the new Polyphony specs *are* a big deal (in a positive way)!

Hopefully this will go a long way toward reducing the times that notes cut off due to polyphony limitations ... which I definitely had happen plenty of times on Tyros5, especially when using V-Console which allows adding more layers of sound.  Looking forward to Genos with respect to (hopefully) better polyphony capabilities!

Jim
Yes, I am seriously considering these facts as well. I have in occasion run out of polyphony on my Tyros 5 which more complex arrangements or using all busy 16 channels. Doubling the polyphony of the stereo samples would easily resolve this (and most likely your V-console issues) . I am leaning strongly in the direction of a Genos, just need all the facts first.

Marcus
Gear: Triangle
 

Offline pjd

Re: How does the 256 Polyphony operate on Genos?
« Reply #42 on: October 11, 2017, 10:34:07 AM »
I don't know how many of the sample sets are "Stereo sample sets" on Tyros and Genos, but it's probably a lot of them?  If so, the new Polyphony specs *are* a big deal (in a positive way)!

Hi Jim --

In the Data List for the Motif/MOX/Montage series, Yamaha provide an "Element" column in the voice list table. The Element column specifies the number of simultaneous voice elements used by the voice when playing a single note. This makes it easy to sort out the heavy users from the light users, i.e., which voices chew into polyphony faster than others.

The PSR/Tyros/Genos voice naming scheme is a little bit of help, but requires some guesswork. In Genos, I would expect the S.Art2, S.Art and Live voices to be stereo. Sweet, Cool and Regular voices are most likely mono.

The Element column eliminates such guesswork. The element count reflects layering, too.

Take care -- pj    (leaning Genos over Montage)