Author Topic: When is a modified style a new style?  (Read 1076 times)

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Offline NASAMike

When is a modified style a new style?
« on: May 08, 2017, 12:23:58 PM »
I realize this may be subjective, but when I purchase styles from Yamaha, I have to modify them extensively to sound like I want them to. 

I re-map voices, replace several channels with parts from others styles etc. 

How much modification has to be done for it to be considered something sharable?  I wouldn't want to violate Yamaha's copyright.

This might be an unanswerable question but I thought I'd throw it out there.

Thx,
NASAMike
 

Offline SeaGtGruff

Re: When is a modified style a new style?
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2017, 12:51:38 PM »
That's a very good question, but also one that probably doesn't have an easy answer. I certainly don't think that just revoicing the channels would be enough, since the phrases, rhythms, etc. would still be the same. But if you change the phrases, rhythms, etc. until they're no longer recognizable, then to my thinking that would be something "new." However, my opinion doesn't matter; it is the opinions of Yamaha and their attorneys that really matter!
Michael Rideout
YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443
 

Offline Misu

Re: When is a modified style a new style?
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2017, 01:26:12 AM »
Hi Mike,
There is also my personal opinion regarding this issue.
When you buy the keyboard you buy also the preset voices so you can use how you want.
Even you want to sale this preset voice you can save and sale ONLY the your own settings for for these voices. So Yamaha doesn't have copyright for your settings.
Regarding the styles also probably you must don't care too much.
I don't remember to hear that the Yamaha corporation invent Bossa Nova, Samba or another type of music.
If we go deeper I don't think that Yamaha consider <his creation>: Drums, Bass or Guitar patterns and the players must to pay to use these.
If you find a method to extract voices from pack probably is NOT OK.
So enjoy from your keyboard.
Mihai
 

Online Joe H

Re: When is a modified style a new style?
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2017, 07:55:52 AM »
Mike,

Once you have "remixed" the style it is yours.   This is a complicated issue, but in most countries copyright law includes a "Fair Use" clause.  I bought some MIDI loops on the internet and the seller states that once I applied my own sounds (Voices), DSPs, sound controllers, I'm free to sell the loops as my own.

I once found a post on a blog or forum years ago by a Yamaha representative stating that if you create a top 40 hit on the radio using one of their preset styles, they won't be chasing you for "royalties".

Current copyright law has had to deal with the Remixer industry that now exists.  Many remixers just post songs for free.  Once you get into wanting to sell your files it gets more complicated.

For us here, we can post styles we have remixed without concern.  Unfortunately, I have seen styles downloaded from this forum for sale on eBay by what I call Internet Pirates.  these are people who are too lazy to do the work themselves and just collect other peoples hard work for their own profit.

Yamaha doesn't even seem to care about this.  I've seen my own custom made styles for sale on eBay as well.

As stated above, Yamaha didn't invent any musical genre, or even the individual phrases of each style part.  These are universal phrases and melodies we have heard all our lives.  The copyright comes in when Yamaha "assembles" all those individual phrases and drum patterns into a single file we call a "style" that copyright then applies.

So... once we remix the sounds, effects processors, delete, add or change some parts, its a new style you can call your own.

Joe H
« Last Edit: May 09, 2017, 07:57:57 AM by Joe H »
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline SciNote

Re: When is a modified style a new style?
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2017, 12:05:27 PM »
... I once found a post on a blog or forum years ago by a Yamaha representative stating that if you create a top 40 hit on the radio using one of their preset styles, they won't be chasing you for "royalties"...
Joe H

I thought I had seen this somewhere, as well.  Something to the effect that you are not allowed to distribute a Yamaha style on its own, but that you can if you us it as part of an original work that you write and produce.  However, I cannot find where I saw this.  I checked the owner's manual for my keyboard, and I did not find it there.
Bob
Yamaha PSR-E433
Yamaha PSR-520
 

Online Joe H

Re: When is a modified style a new style?
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2017, 12:25:13 PM »
I looked for the Yamaha post but I didn't find it yet.  Attached is a copy of Wikipedia's definition of Remixer.  Digital technology has really complicated copyright law.  So we will never reach any final conclusion here.

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline SeaGtGruff

Re: When is a modified style a new style?
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2017, 02:57:32 PM »
we will never reach any final conclusion here.

Yes, that's why I say "my opinion doesn't matter; it is the opinions of Yamaha and their attorneys that really matter." ;) Chances are, you'd probably be safe to post a style that you'd purchased from Yamaha and then tweaked a good bit-- but personally, I wouldn't want to be the one taking the chance. Although I'd certainly feel better about starting from a style or styles that were included with my keyboard, versus a style or styles that I'd had to purchase separately from Yamaha MusicSoft as part of an Expansion Pack.
Michael Rideout
YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443
 

Offline tyrosaurus

Re: When is a modified style a new style?
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2017, 04:43:27 PM »
I have purchased a number of styles for my T4 from Yamaha MusicSoft over the last five years or so, and I noticed that whilst styles included in Premium Voice Packs invariably include a Yamaha copyright metadata event in the MIDI code,  the majority of those purchased as individual styles do not contain a copyright event.  These styles typically have the file extension '.STY' rather than the typical '.prs' extension of those in a pack.

If you save any type of style from within the keyboard's 'Style Creator', even without making any changes to it whatsoever, it is  saved as a '.STY' type and any copyright event is stripped out!   Does this suggest that the supposed keyboard model specific styles sold individually by Yamaha MicroSoft, are really nothing more than a single 'base' style that has been loaded and then saved on a specific keyboard?   Remember that the versions for the Tyros models often cost more than for the rest of the range!   I have purchased styles supposedly specific for my T4 (which contain ''XT4' in their names), which use a Left voice in their OTS which although it sounds when played, it can't be edited!   This is typical of the voice actually being one from a different keyboard!

Now the lack of a specific copyright event or statement does not automatically mean that copyright does not apply to such files.  However surely Yamaha are not helping their cause by such practises!

Yamaha have said in the past that songs (even commercial ones or hits  :-\ !) produced from their styles, will not be subject to their copyright as a result of using the style, but this different to 'sharing' a style which is still currently on sale, and has had no, or minimal  changes to it, even though you won't necessarily find any indication within it that it is a Yamaha commercial style (other than it's quality of course!), especially if it has been saved from Style Creator, even if the original version did contain a copyright event!

Yamaha are not the only company whose intellectual properties seem to be 'shared' openly on some forums!


Regards

Ian
« Last Edit: May 09, 2017, 04:59:47 PM by tyrosaurus »
 

Online Joe H

Re: When is a modified style a new style?
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2017, 07:27:41 PM »
Here is one more bit of information I found on the internet some time ago... It's a big can of worms for the lawyers to sort out in court.  And I'm of the opinion that it's not about who is right, but rather who can make the best argument and WIN.   ;D    ::)      :P     :'(

Several years ago a lawyer who worked for our local county government made a statement "on record" in a public hearing... "I could argue this either way depending on who is paying me" 

So... Good luck making sense out of this one.

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html