Author Topic: Has anyone really cracked midi editing on the Tyros  (Read 2060 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline ugawoga

Has anyone really cracked midi editing on the Tyros
« on: April 20, 2017, 02:24:05 PM »
Hi

I get so frustrated after making a song on the Tyros sequencer and then put it Into Sonar Platinum for minor editing.
Maybe a few note lengths or volumes and not forgetting the little boo boo's.
I did a song all on Track 1  and track 2 for left hand with program changes along the way with registrations.
The Style is on It's respective channels.
Ok ,transfer to Sonar and the Intro I played was a semitone down for some reason and the sound was awfullly out of tune.
As soon as I went to registration 2 all played well and all the other changes played also well to the end.This Is always the same pattern when editing In Sonar .Sometimes It goes alright all the way through,but 6 times out of 10 nah!! :-[
I tried moving the Intro part I played up a semitone to beat this problem .Yes, It worked,but volumes started changing ,some parts louder than others when changing registration.Weird!! ::)
Sonar now supposed to have a super midi editing process with the latest update.For me it Is frustrating rubbish.
So now I have to go back to square one probably and multi-track the song on different channels which I think Is a pain as I like to play a song through and do minor edits.
The more you change things when editing ,the more goes wrong, like something inside the program hates you!!! >:(
You cannot do proper Tyros eding In Mixcraft as It does not deal with Sys Ex and you have to have your sound box on which gives different sound to what you played.More tinky tonky. :o

Now Mike Bedeseems Mixmaster plays Tyros midi as It should be,but It lacks a Piano Roll and I am not good at all those numbers.

It does seem that some programs do one good thing and not another and yet I cannot find a PROGRAM THAT THE TYROS FEELS COMFORTABLE WITH. :-[

Has anyone been  sucessful in having a stable editor for the Tyros 5 with a great piano Roll???

I always have to find workarounds to finish editing songs and It can be pulling out hair stuff!! ::)



All the Best
john :)

All the Best
John :P
 

Offline maartenb

Re: Has anyone really cracked midi editing on the Tyros
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2017, 01:16:32 AM »
Editing Tyros MIDI files in a DAW is not that simple, but can certainly be done (see my YouTube channel).

You have to make sure that your DAW can handle SysEx data. The Tyros uses this for effects, chords, variations and resetting the sound to a default setting. The SysEx data is "all over the place" in the MIDI file.

I use REAPER as my DAW because of it's stability and it's running with ease on older hardware. When I import a song from the Tyros into REAPER, it asks me to have all notes on a single track or on multiple tracks. When I choose the second option, I loose all SysEx data!

If the same happens with Sonar, it might explain why your Tyros file sound bad when played from Sonar.


Maarten
 

Offline Dusan

Re: Has anyone really cracked midi editing on the Tyros
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2017, 01:39:35 AM »
John,

I can anderstand your frustration.I allso use Sonar to edit files,but not for
Midi files except Style files with Mix maser.In that case Sonar work perfectly.
Try Yamaha XG Works.You can fined on Internet...

Maarten,

do you use Instrument definition for T5 on your Reaper? If you do,
where I can fined that file?

Regards

« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 01:43:40 AM by Dusan »
Dušan


If you want to fly,you must first walk....
 

Offline ugawoga

Re: Has anyone really cracked midi editing on the Tyros
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2017, 05:33:42 AM »
Hi Marten

With Sonar a box comes up and ask whether you want Sys Ex and I press yes.
In Sonar  tyros right hand and left hand use track 1 and 2.
The styles use 9,10,11,12 13,14

All other tracks for bells and whistles.
Sometimes all goes fine and others not so good.I can eventually get through ,but with a lot of *(*(&^*words.
I have just wrote back to Mike Bedeseem and explained my plight.
Mikes Mixmaster plays midi songs from the TyRos 100%,
I would like to see Mixmaster with a good Piano roll editor and then there would be no competition.

Midiworks and One Man band have poor piano rolls I my opinion.Very basic.
I do not know how cubase handles Tyros midi .Mixcraft,no Sys Ex.


All the best
John :)
 

Offline ugawoga

Re: Has anyone really cracked midi editing on the Tyros
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2017, 05:39:35 AM »
Hi Dusan

yes I use the definition file 1.07 In Sonar.
What gets me Is not enough people complain about midi editing In these Pro daws or we must be In the minority.
I would of thought yamaha would have made a decent editing software program for it's users as the small screen bigged up  is much better on a computer.
If we could somehow get the Tyros Sys Ex talking to a Sys Ex daw with a stable connection,the sooner the better .

Mixmaster Is very close.even better If you can work out all those fancy numbers!!! :o


All the best
John 8)
 

Re: Has anyone really cracked midi editing on the Tyros
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2017, 12:17:34 PM »
I use Logic Pro with Tyros..  no midi ending problems..  By this point, I would assume ALL Daws are quite capable in  MIDI editing..  Perhaps you are missing a fine point some where.

I use a short control sequence, I put on each Tyros track in Logic to set up the sounds for each Tyros track..

picture of control sequence I insert at the beginning of each Logic track - https://app.box.com/s/d4096mq0gb1uw4epp6dc

MIDI control sequence you could import into your DAW for each channel - https://app.box.com/s/z3ek8mcbkh9wekrd4eza

Refer to Tyros DATA manual (which you download from Yamaha site).. you can add more CC events to suit your needs.

Bear in mind some hardware/software uses CC 0 - 127 and others CC 1 - 128 for Programs ONLY..  you must compensate for this..  Some DAWS have a switch for it, others you

must manually do.. For me with Logic Pro, I have to make the program # one higher to get the proper sound.

I end up having Logic play song and patch into Tyros Song channels,,

You might want to include a CC 127  (I think)  it is call reset..

also a pitchbend 0 at beginning of song..  If you stop your song in midi way,, and Tyros parts that were pitchbend, and not returned to 0 will continue  with pitch off..

Make sure individual tracks in Sonar are sending to proper song channels in Tyros..  Some DAW default to 'all channels', unless you change.. Then you just get a huge audio mess.
 

Offline ugawoga

Re: Has anyone really cracked midi editing on the Tyros
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2017, 03:31:51 AM »
Hi Mark
It would take me some time to get my head around those technicalities.
I am starting delve a lot more,but It is understanding what you are saying here.
It Is not a five minute thing.Some of the things you are saying here makes sense to me and I know It is all In the numbers and need a little time for things to sink In.
My head is aching already :)
I wrote to Mike Bedeseem saying If only there was a piano roll with Mixmaster you would be home and dry without messing with anything.
Well Mark I will study what you are saying and thanks for your explaination.
What I do is record on the Tyros straight through using the registrations and a lot of practice and then do some minor adjustments.
This way you get or your lead on track one and left hand on track two. That maybe the problem as you put different sections on different tracks.
So I have been relying on program changes along a single route.
I think that Sonar cannot handle this method as Vst is great In Sonar.
But, I like the Tyros.(Looking forward to the Genos).You can play a song and play It,rather than cutting and pasting all day.But we cannot help our fingers sliding off a black key now and then, more now!! :o
Another strange thing when concentrating hard to get a song right is that you can drift for a nanosecond and all goes wrong. Also the perils of the red record button syndrome!! :-X :-\

All the best
John

Ps Does it make any difference to a piano roll if the snap feature Is off??? can things move If that Is off and does It lock the grid when you save and come back so nothing slides off a little.???
I always thought that the snap feature Is for keeping things tight to what you have set It to,but can notes still move away from the grid or does the grid move .
It always happens to me!! :( :o


All the best
John   My favourite saying when things go wrong  "Gone Forever"!!! ;D My other half say's she will put that on my gravestone or put me in a firework and say enjoy the ride"!! :o ;D
« Last Edit: April 24, 2017, 04:00:27 AM by ugawoga »
 

Offline maartenb

Re: Has anyone really cracked midi editing on the Tyros
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2017, 05:51:04 AM »
Maarten,

do you use Instrument definition for T5 on your Reaper?
No, I don't. I press Record in Reaper, press the sound I want to use, and stop the recording in Reaper. Now I have the data I need in Reaper to select the sound I need.


Maarten
 

Offline maartenb

Re: Has anyone really cracked midi editing on the Tyros
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2017, 05:52:48 AM »
Hi Marten

With Sonar a box comes up and ask whether you want Sys Ex and I press yes.

Sometimes all goes fine and others not so good.
That's weird. Maybe it's time to ditch Sonar and try something else?

Maarten
 

Re: Has anyone really cracked midi editing on the Tyros
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2017, 05:01:36 AM »
All these comments add up to one thing - Yamaha needs to give (sell) us what we've been asking for all along, a decent and easy to use DAW!!!! They shroud their technology in one riddle after another and virtually keep it from those who have insatiable creative juices. The T5 could be an amazing creative instrument, but creativity is completely out the window when you need to spend 90 percent of your time figuring out their rat's maze of convoluted MIDI messages and other stuff. And yes, as a living room or even gigging machine, it's amazing!! No arguments there. However, I have a gift and the desire to make pre-scores for gigs and shows. The T5 would be a marvelous tool if I could get the darn thing to work in a DAW.

I paid good money for my Cubase Artist 8 program. I'd be happy to invest in a Tyros dedicated DAW. Problem is, doing so would allow me to keep my T5 much longer. Yamaha doesn't want that. They want me to buy the next flagship Tyros or whatever they'll call it. They don't want me creating my own styles either - something achievable in a dedicated DAW. Once again, that would interfere with their revenue stream, as more people catch onto making their own custom styles. For now, the only ones capable of recording, and editing songs and styles are the VERY gifted...and that's just plain wrong. I paid the same relative dollars for my T5. Who else is tired of having some of these basic requests fall on deaf ears?
« Last Edit: May 07, 2017, 04:50:47 AM by Lee Batchelor »
Current Gear: Tyros 5, Nord Electro 5D, SoundCraft mixer, two Bose L1 Compact speakers, 15 inch subwoofer designed and built by myself, Yamaha HS8 studio monitors, Cubase 8 Artist, Steinberg UR-44 sound interface.
 

Offline ugawoga

Re: Has anyone really cracked midi editing on the Tyros
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2017, 05:33:55 AM »
Hi Lee
I totally agree with you as Yamaha could easily make a Daw to go wth the Tyros which could actually talk to the Tyros properly as big Daw companies are only Interested in Vst Instruments.
Also for the price of the Instrument,you would think that something would have been done.
I find that Yem Is very basic and having to load everything when you want to load one thing Is a pain.
The fact that daws do not play portamento properly as the events are a few ticks out and loads of quirks in top Daws.
I do hope the Genos Or Tyros 6 will be fully supported and a proper editing software will surface  especially with a piano roll and decent style editing which can be done on a computer..
We can only hope


All the Best
John :)
 

Offline Joe H

Re: Has anyone really cracked midi editing on the Tyros
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2017, 07:52:05 AM »
Hi Lee
I totally agree with you as Yamaha could easily make a Daw to go wth the Tyros which could actually talk to the Tyros properly as big Daw companies are only Interested in Vst Instruments.
Also for the price of the Instrument,you would think that something would have been done.
I find that Yem Is very basic and having to load everything when you want to load one thing Is a pain.
The fact that daws do not play portamento properly as the events are a few ticks out and loads of quirks in top Daws.
I do hope the Genos Or Tyros 6 will be fully supported and a proper editing software will surface  especially with a piano roll and decent style editing which can be done on a computer..
We can only hope


All the Best
John :)

All these things have already been implemented in other Yamaha keyboards.  Even the $500.00 MX49 / MX61 keyboards have MX-Cubase integration.  The way Yamaha does this is...  the Motif/MOX/MX Panel controls (sliders, buttons, knobs, etc) are used to control Cubase functions so you don't have to use the computer mouse or computer keyboard for most operations.  The Motif and PSR A3000 have the Portamento you refer to as well as half-damper sustain for acoustic pianos and EPs. 

Yamaha created a "Style Template" for Cubase many years ago...  I made a better one.  But I think it requires more than just a template with style Markers in it to build styles in Cubase.   Style building in Cubase would need to include a database of thousands of style parts you could edit and "assemble" or... optionally create by recording yourself.  A CASM Editor, and full blown OTS Editor, complete access and editing of DSPs and many other functions.

Right now it is impossible for me to use just one program to create styles... this should not be the case.  But at least we have StyleMagic, which is the most complete style-creation software available at the moment.  I have encouraged Thomas to add more features but he does not respond (directly) to my specific requests.  This is disappointing because StyleMagic COULD be pro-level style-maker software with some specific improvements.

Joe H
« Last Edit: May 08, 2017, 07:57:52 AM by Joe H »
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Re: Has anyone really cracked midi editing on the Tyros
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2017, 01:09:54 PM »
Great info, Joe.

I remember when I owned my MOX8, Yamaha provided free studio interface software (integrated or standalone) for any Cubase software. A similar product would be great for the arranger keyboards. I also assume style construction software is not easy to make. I remember reading about Style Magic but never invested in it. If Yamaha were to offer a decent DAW and style making software in the next keyboard, they would crush the competition. I have no idea what sort of revenue stream they enjoy with the expansion boards and extra voices, but for me they nickel and dime their customers to death.

I really like the Nord business model. My Electro 5D (which replaced my MOX8) comes with a ton of synth voices, killer pianos, EPs, and B3 organs. Their synth voices absolutely suck - barely 80s technology, however, you can delete them all and download any other voice you want from the Nord website. All their new voices are free and will work on ANY Nord product. There's a ton of stuff I paid for on my T5 that I will never use. The Dance styles and Electronica voices are totally off the map for me, and are a waste of memory and money. That's what happens when Yamaha tries to be all things to all players. That's outdated thinking and smells more like a Microsoft screw up. Using Nord's business model, I should be able to delete the stuff I never use and download more appropriate voices and styles from the Yamaha website FOR FREE!!! Never mind the $500 expansion board and overpriced voices. Nord does it, why not Yamaha?
Current Gear: Tyros 5, Nord Electro 5D, SoundCraft mixer, two Bose L1 Compact speakers, 15 inch subwoofer designed and built by myself, Yamaha HS8 studio monitors, Cubase 8 Artist, Steinberg UR-44 sound interface.
 

Offline Joe H

Re: Has anyone really cracked midi editing on the Tyros
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2017, 01:35:08 PM »
Lee,

I have been truly impressed by Yamaha as a company and like Yamaha as a company, but agree with you that Yamaha is behind the curve on its 20th century business model.  I think this is because the company is so huge.  As the saying goes, it is hard to turn a big ship to set a new course.  I suspect they may be aware of this shortcoming... and maybe they are working on it. 

They have been so focused on opening up new markets on a global scale, they have missed the importance of matching or beating their competition on features and price point.

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Re: Has anyone really cracked midi editing on the Tyros
« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2017, 01:54:59 PM »
Totally agreed, Joe. I have nothing but admiration for Yamaha and its product line. To be fair, I've made a lot money over the years using their gear. I have a good feeling about the T5 successor. Yamaha is very unlikely to drop the ball :).
Current Gear: Tyros 5, Nord Electro 5D, SoundCraft mixer, two Bose L1 Compact speakers, 15 inch subwoofer designed and built by myself, Yamaha HS8 studio monitors, Cubase 8 Artist, Steinberg UR-44 sound interface.
 

Re: Has anyone really cracked midi editing on the Tyros
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2017, 02:05:20 PM »
Joe - "All these things have already been implemented in other Yamaha keyboards.  Even the $500.00 MX49 / MX61 keyboards have MX-Cubase integration."

Would you mind telling me where the "Cubase integration" software is for my T5??? I have spent HOURS trying to record and play back a simple song with Styles and one voice. I have yet to get Cubase Artist 8 to play nice with my T5. Have I just had too many birthdays?

I used to create scores with a DOS version of Sequencer Plus connected to a Korg M-1 and Roland Sound Canvas. After 2 minutes of routing, I was ready to create Broadway scores, which I did - 130 in total! Trying to do the same thing on the T5 is worse than ear aches and watered down gin combined!! Thanks :).
Current Gear: Tyros 5, Nord Electro 5D, SoundCraft mixer, two Bose L1 Compact speakers, 15 inch subwoofer designed and built by myself, Yamaha HS8 studio monitors, Cubase 8 Artist, Steinberg UR-44 sound interface.
 

Offline Joe H

Re: Has anyone really cracked midi editing on the Tyros
« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2017, 05:07:44 PM »
Lee,

I hope it's coming with the next arranger keyboard release.  Yamaha Marketing folks do read our rants... so maybe they will get the message that it is actually much easier to make music on the arranger than on the Motif / Montage... so it's time to give us a break and cough up real software support that we want and need.

 ;)

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Online jwyvern

Re: Has anyone really cracked midi editing on the Tyros
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2017, 04:39:34 AM »
'Would you mind telling me where the "Cubase integration" software is for my T5??? I have spent HOURS trying to record and play back a simple song with Styles and one voice. I have yet to get Cubase Artist 8 to play nice with my T5. Have I just had too many birthdays? '

Hi Lee,
A few months ago I got Cubase Elements to try with Ty5 since whenever I used Sonar there were often  subtle changes to the sound due to occasional Dsp' s being sort of lost. After spending time trying to figure out how Cubase does even the most basic of things including how to record multi channels from the keyboard without apparently being able to assign single inputs to the recording channels (in Elements) I now believe I am starting to get somewhere.
The method I use is to start an empty project, add a midi track and assign the input channel to Any. Then start recording,  push the appropriate registration on Tyros and start playing. That way the style voices and all 4 panel voices if you want are recorded into Cubase complete with whatever edits and Dsp's they were assigned in the reg. in a similar way to quick recording on Tyros.  You can change to different registrations in mid play and the changes will be recorded. 
All channels are recorded in the 1 track as a Midi type 0 file. If you now choose Dissolve from the midi menu all the separate channels magically appear as in a Type 1 so they can be edited in the usual ways.
Important note:
The initial registration is key to ensuring a full midi dump is sent to Cubase at the start including Sys Ex.  but in general Tyros will only send the settings that cause a change from the current panel setup. So to force the whole lot to be sent I have a 'Reset' registration that contains voices and settings I would never want to use, which is pressed to set Tyros before recording to ensure all data from the chosen start up reg.  has to be sent after recording starts.
Because this seems to work and takes care of getting alI the voice edits right within Cubase I see no need to use the dedicated Cubase list of Tyros presets, voices  can be sent, edited or not, straight from Tyros as needed.
One thing I have noticed is that style voice volumes sent by Tyros through midi to  Cubase strangely have lower volumes by a factor of 100/127 than the volumes Tyros sends to the on board recorder and to me the Cubase song seemed to have less impact without correcting for it.
I'm still new to Cubase, but thought I'd put out my thoughts so far :)

John
« Last Edit: May 20, 2017, 04:44:34 AM by jwyvern »
 
The following users thanked this post: Joe H

Re: Has anyone really cracked midi editing on the Tyros
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2017, 01:09:08 PM »
Wow, thanks for the informative post,  jwyvern. I shall give your technique a try.

Thanks to all who contributed ideas :)!
Current Gear: Tyros 5, Nord Electro 5D, SoundCraft mixer, two Bose L1 Compact speakers, 15 inch subwoofer designed and built by myself, Yamaha HS8 studio monitors, Cubase 8 Artist, Steinberg UR-44 sound interface.