Author Topic: Montage and Genos  (Read 5017 times)

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Online Bachus

Montage and Genos
« on: April 09, 2017, 01:08:12 PM »

Did anyone ever wonder why there is so much room on the montage between the keys and the controlls?

Could it be the genos will be using the same casing and formfactor?

And then just have the arranger controlls there where there is still room on the frontpannel?



I think those understanding the philosophy of the Montage operation will understand how this could definately work...

Life is like a box of chocolats, you never know what you are gonna get, so enjoy them all.  I am wayting for the next box of chocolate the Yamaha Genos.

Admin of : www.keyszone.boards.net
 

Offline J. Larry

Re: Montage and Genos
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2017, 04:55:17 PM »
Yamaha can design a new flagship any way they want.  Doesnt really matter to me.  I just wish they would make it lighter, with less real estate to the overall look and body (61-note in my case).  The weight alone is the main reason I dont gig with the Tyros 5, preferring, instead, the S970. 
 

Online Joe H

Re: Montage and Genos
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2017, 06:38:41 PM »
Bachus,

What you are suggesting is a Montage- Arranger Workstation (Montage with Tyros style player and Multi Pad functions added)

I don't think we will see this happen anytime soon.

 ;)

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline SciNote

Re: Montage and Genos
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2017, 09:46:09 PM »
Bachus,

What you are suggesting is a Montage- Arranger Workstation (Montage with Tyros style player and Multi Pad functions added)

I don't think we will see this happen anytime soon.

 ;)

Joe H

Not necessarily.  I think what he is suggesting is that the Genos could just use the same keyboard shell as the Montage, which would have very similar cut-outs for the sliders and controls, but those sliders and controls would not necessarily have the same functions as on a Montage.  In an arranger, for example, the sliders could be for sequencer track volumes, live-control of part volumes (main voice, dual voice, split voice, etc.), and/or drawbar simulator functions.  And then, I believe he is saying that what looks to be about a 2 inch gap between the actual keys of the keyboard and the Montage buttons and controls could be filled with arranger-specific pushbuttons on a Genos, such as registrations, rhythm/style control buttons, and multi-pads.
Bob
Yamaha PSR-E433
Yamaha PSR-520
 

Offline soundphase

Re: Montage and Genos
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2017, 02:48:52 AM »
Some people already suggested this : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Awba-L0JMc

 :)

Soundphase
 

Offline EileenL

Re: Montage and Genos
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2017, 04:20:39 AM »
We will all know what it will look like when it actually arrives. I hope it is a little brighter in colour than the Montage.

Online Joe H

Re: Montage and Genos
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2017, 07:52:11 AM »
It's more likely we will see a Tyros replacement that looks a lot like the S970 but with no speakers and more real-time knobs or sliders.  A TOTL arranger that is more compact, and lighter in weight, with the live performance features many have been asking for. 

Maybe even Arranger - Cubase Integration. (The ability to control many Cubase functions from the arranger panel buttons and sliders.. with corresponding displays on the arranger screen so you don't have to look up at the computer monitor)

Joe H

« Last Edit: April 11, 2017, 07:53:43 AM by Joe H »
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Online Bachus

Re: Montage and Genos
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2017, 08:09:36 AM »
Bachus,

What you are suggesting is a Montage- Arranger Workstation (Montage with Tyros style player and Multi Pad functions added)

I don't think we will see this happen anytime soon.

 ;)

Joe H

I am not suggesting anything... just saying it would be physically possible..

Indeed we do not know where yamaha is leading us...


The next gen tyros could also look much more like the CVP 709 interface..

Seems we will not know...  until later this year..



Currently i am wondering if they had a Genos/tyros6 behind the scenes at Musik Messe... which has happened before ( think it was Tyros 4 ). Or will they be showing it of to the insiders at Malorco again?


Only time will tell... the insiders are allways very tightlipped..


Back on the Montage/tyros...  there would be many many things from the montage very welcome in the next Tyros...  i am quite some ill make its way... while others will not...
Life is like a box of chocolats, you never know what you are gonna get, so enjoy them all.  I am wayting for the next box of chocolate the Yamaha Genos.

Admin of : www.keyszone.boards.net
 

Online Joe H

Re: Montage and Genos
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2017, 10:01:30 AM »
Something we all can agree on is that there have been at least three indicators of change coming for the next TOTL arranger:

1. LIVE CONTROL and an arpeggiator added to the PSR S series

2. A complete remake of the Motif ... that has morphed into the Montage (super Motif)

3. A one year delay in the release of the Tyros upgrade (new design?)

These improvements and delay suggest a new improved and better  (a bigger bang for the buck) arranger with large internal memory, improved sound quality, live performance enhancements and maybe a surprise or two as well.

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Online Bachus

Re: Montage and Genos
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2017, 11:23:32 AM »
Something we all can agree on is that there have been at least three indicators of change coming for the next TOTL arranger:

1. LIVE CONTROL and an arpeggiator added to the PSR S series

2. A complete remake of the Motif ... that has morphed into the Montage (super Motif)

3. A one year delay in the release of the Tyros upgrade (new design?)

These improvements and delay suggest a new improved and better  (a bigger bang for the buck) arranger with large internal memory, improved sound quality, live performance enhancements and maybe a surprise or two as well.

Joe H

Yes... thats definately 3 clues, we agree on...

 there is also some questions we need to ask ourselves..
- how much of the stuff that got cut away in the change from the motif workstation to the Montage performance synth, will make it into the next gen totl arranger "workstation" from yamaha
- will yamaha with the new model try to sattisfy the current (old) customers .. or will they try to get new (young) customers interested in the product?
- are there any features in the competions arrangers that are very nice or even need to have?
- is the high end arranger market still lucrative to Yamaha?

Figure out the answers to these questions, and you might have an idea...
Life is like a box of chocolats, you never know what you are gonna get, so enjoy them all.  I am wayting for the next box of chocolate the Yamaha Genos.

Admin of : www.keyszone.boards.net
 

Online Joe H

Re: Montage and Genos
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2017, 12:24:33 PM »
Bachus,

There have been many threads on the topic of Motif vs. arranger.  Each with its own strengths and weaknesses.  Since buying a Motif Rack XS, I can more fully appreciate the deep editing and sophisticated architecture of the Motif.  Particularly its Mega Voice Arpeggios... far more complex than traditional arps.  As Yamaha has said... "these are not your father's arps"  The new XS Arps use specially programmed Voices with up to 8 Elements... each programmed to play within a specific note range and velocity range.  And the Elements (waveforms) may even be of different waveform types giving the arp a unique sound and variety not possible by a regular Yamaha "Normal Voice".


What does this mean for the future arranger?  Well Yamaha is master of recycling its technology.  Even the Montage incorporates many recycled ideas.  While it eliminates the many "Modes" of the Motif... it incorporates them into the Montage's single "Performance Mode".  Offering AWM2 plus FM is an old idea.  Scenes are an old idea.  The Motion Sequencer is an old idea.  Even the Super Knob is an old idea... but it's the first time it has been designed into a keyboard.  Synth - Cubase Integration... yet another old idea.  MIDI - Audio integration... a carry-over from the Motif.

What's really new with the Montage is just the current chip technology giving faster, better performance and sound... and large memory for expansion.

So I think we will see the same kind of thing with the next arranger.  Features and capabilities borrowed from the Motif or other Yamaha legacy synths with the latest chip technology and sound quality.  They will have to catch up with Korg or else loose market share.  And yes... they have to create an arranger that will appeal to the younger generation.

As has been stated many times here before... while a synth like the Motif and now Montage have huge programming capabilities, you can spend most of your time programming rather than playing.  Where as the arranger is far superior in terms of music production "right out of the box". 

So... an arranger with 8 Parts plus 4 Multi Pads... plus a live arppegiator... plus real-time control sliders and encoder knobs would be a real winner.  But without new "content" for the 20 somethings, 30 somethings and 40 somethings... Yamaha will still loose market share.   In fact, it is in my humble opinion that Yamaha's greatest failing at the moment, is a failure to produce new contemporary content for the arranger keyboards.   The best designed arranger in the world won't cut it without content appealing to the contemporary musician, if it's not there... they will just stick with their DAWs and make music on the computer.

 ;D

Joe H
« Last Edit: April 11, 2017, 08:00:05 PM by Joe H »
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Online Joe H

Re: Montage and Genos
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2017, 12:37:39 PM »
BTW... while the new 8 Operator FM x synth engine in the Montage offers great EPs and bell sounds, Yamaha should have included an Analog synth engine as well to provide beautiful synth Pads, Big Leads, Phat Comps and pure Pluck Leads.  Now that would have made the Montage a truly powerful performance synth hard to beat. 

 ;)

Joe H
« Last Edit: April 11, 2017, 12:39:30 PM by Joe H »
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Online Bachus

Re: Montage and Genos
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2017, 12:45:13 PM »
BTW... while the new 8 Operator FM x synth engine in the Montage offers great EPs and bell sounds, Yamaha should have included an Analog synth engine as well to provide beautiful synth Pads, Big Leads, Phat Comps and pure Pluck Leads.  Now that would have made the Montage a truly powerful performance synth hard to beat. 

 ;)

Joe H

My Motif ES had 4 PLG plugin boards....  even back then...  with a VL, AN and FM board.. you had 3 extra forms of synthesis....  i allways tought the montage should have had all 3 (4 incluing wm2) synth engines...

I guess yamaha will be adding an extra synth engine every 4 years to a new montage series...   next up should be the VA synth.. 

Life is like a box of chocolats, you never know what you are gonna get, so enjoy them all.  I am wayting for the next box of chocolate the Yamaha Genos.

Admin of : www.keyszone.boards.net
 

Online Joe H

Re: Montage and Genos
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2017, 02:32:13 PM »
My Motif ES had 4 PLG plugin boards....  even back then...  with a VL, AN and FM board.. you had 3 extra forms of synthesis....  i allways tought the montage should have had all 3 (4 incluing wm2) synth engines...

I guess yamaha will be adding an extra synth engine every 4 years to a new montage series...   next up should be the VA synth..

Yes... as you can see, I have those plug-in boards in my MU128.  Interesting that the Motif XS supports the CC02 Breath Controller message but no Breath Controller connector to plug one in.  At least I have an external programmable Breath Controller processor so one day I'll give the BC2 a try with the Motif Rack XS.

You are probably right... Yamaha will spoon feed the analog and Virtual Acoustic synth engines one at a time.   But I think an on-board analog synth would have a better first choice. 

Joe H
« Last Edit: April 12, 2017, 02:33:36 PM by Joe H »
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Online Joe H

Re: Montage and Genos
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2017, 02:36:30 PM »
Bachus,

The AN1x and PLG-150 AN rivaled any DAW software for analog sounds.  Just give a listen... it's a beautiful analog synth engine.

http://www.jaybmusic.net/sounds.php#end

Yamaha really missed the boat by not including analog in the Montage.

Joe H
« Last Edit: April 12, 2017, 02:41:34 PM by Joe H »
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Online Bachus

Re: Montage and Genos
« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2017, 09:43:24 AM »
For those wondering what the montage has to offer compared to a Tyros 5...

I added a link to some Montage tutorials on the keyszone forums...

http://keyszone.boards.net/thread/243/yamaha-montage-tutorials

If you have an hour or two... just watch them
- integration with Cubase is incredible, the video's obviously show why you want to eddit and record midi and audio on a PC
- the touchscreen really makes edditing onboard sounds quite effective, no external PC needed for that
- sliders and encoders with led rings are a gods blessing..
- the arps and motion sequencing and other tools are essentials for improving the edm capabilities of the totl arranger of the future

One can hope, but we also know, most of these things are what makes the montage the montage, and it will probably take quite some time before finding its way into a Genos or Tyros.

Best thing one can think of is a Yamaha Tyros/Genos module with some form of integration on the Montage.. 


Anyway.. i think the montage is currently the most underestimated keyboard on the market.. because all the things it does, it does brilliantly..
Life is like a box of chocolats, you never know what you are gonna get, so enjoy them all.  I am wayting for the next box of chocolate the Yamaha Genos.

Admin of : www.keyszone.boards.net
 

Online Joe H

Re: Montage and Genos
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2017, 11:42:34 AM »
Bachus,

The main reason I bought a Motif Rack XS is for the 6633 arpeggios.  The Motif also has good integration with Cubase and the Motif Voice / Multi Editor is both a  Stand Alone Editor and also runs inside Cubase which will allow you to save setups and as a Cubase Project file.

There is no doubt the Montage is a fabulous keyboard... I agree.  I think Yamaha realized they needed to make the equivalent of a hardware DAW by how they did the Montage-Cubase integration.

I'm hoping all future arrangers will have thousands of arps including the controller arps that allow you to play and record Gated patterns and sidechain lead Voices and as well a built-in Multi Pad and style part Creator / Editor using the arps as source content  The arpeggios are greatly misunderstood by many, but our styles are actually made up of arpeggios. 

So the Motif arpeggios are an extension of the S970 and a tool to not only create new style Parts for me, but the Motif Rack XS arps can be played on the S970 as if they were S970 arps using the S970 R1 Voices.  And with the help of my external hardware MIDI controller, I can replicate and duplicate any of the Motif keyboard Panel Controls to implement real-time changes in arp nuances and arp patterns.

I will probably start a new thread on the topic once I have my methods worked out.  The Motif - Arranger integration is a very cool thing and exceeds the capabilities of the current Tyros Arranger.  I'm glad I went in this direction... Maybe Yamaha will catch up to me on the next PSR arranger.

 What I would really like to see Yamaha release is a hybrid keyboard with the best of the Motif built into an arranger like the PSR S series without speakers so there is room for sliders and encoder knobs.   Maybe something like they did with the MOXF... a scaled back Motif.  I'm talking about a scaled back Tyros the size of the PSR S970 with some added Performance keyboard features.  but for now... I've got to live with the Motif Rack and S970 combination to give me what I want.

 ;D

Joe H

« Last Edit: April 15, 2017, 07:46:04 PM by Joe H »
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Online Bachus

Re: Montage and Genos
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2017, 12:18:46 AM »
I definately agree Joe, with you on the arps and how much fun they are...

Both arps as well as tracks in our arrangers are based on a repeating midi patern...

However..  both have advantages and disadvantages...
 
Arranger tracks (and multi pads) are much more static.. allways repeating the same pattern..
Altough you (espescially Korg) has an incredible option to play a different variation on a track based on the type of chord you play... in korg you can define 32 variations in a single track being 32 different midi patterns.. (tyros if i am correct only 2) ..  but essentially there is not much freedom..

Arps biggest disadvantage is that they are limited to a maximum of 16 different notes..
But they are much more flexible..  you have much more controll over how and when they play..

There is also controll arps in your Motif, and they are used to live controll CC and such. Montage is taking this another step forward. Because the motion sequencer, is the next step in controll arps.. taking it a huge step forward..


I gathered some information about arpeggios and yamaha overhere

http://keyszone.boards.net/thread/246/yamaha-guide-arps

So everyone less informed about arps has some nice documentation and 2 video's to catch up

And for you Joe, enjoy your Motif and its arps..there is so much fun in Playing with arps and creating them..  i am quite sure we agree on the fact that having a montage/motif and a tyros in one keyboard.. would be be a great tool...    all in all i really like that yamaha took a step in that direction with the psr s970 series...

But for now... if you want it all you need 2 keyboards, or a keyboard and a module...


If yamaha ever decided to build a Genos/tyros module and add some integration features with it in the Montage, it would be a perfect combo...





« Last Edit: April 15, 2017, 12:26:08 AM by Bachus »
Life is like a box of chocolats, you never know what you are gonna get, so enjoy them all.  I am wayting for the next box of chocolate the Yamaha Genos.

Admin of : www.keyszone.boards.net
 

Online Joe H

Re: Montage and Genos
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2017, 08:40:51 AM »
Bachus,

As far as arp variations go on the Yamaha arranger, it would be possible to create up to 3 variations for a single style Part, and do this for 2 different style Parts.  The variations would play only with specifically assigned chord types.   This is something I will be experimenting with since the Motif offers 5 variations per Voice or Multi. 

If I had the space for another keyboard I would have went with an MOXF 6 (instead of a sound module) which would make things a bit easier with it's built-in sequencer and panel controls... but I can record the Motif Rack XS arps to the S970 sequencer and create the controls with the Peavey PC1600x 16 sliders and 16 buttons.

Thanks for the links.  I've downloaded some documents on arps for myself also.  It will be interesting to see what the next Yamaha arranger will offer.

Joe H
« Last Edit: April 15, 2017, 08:42:16 AM by Joe H »
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Online Joe H

Re: Montage and Genos
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2017, 05:46:27 PM »
Bachus,

I put together several documents for myself on Yamaha arppegios.  They are attached here.  Maybe these would be appropriate on the other forum. Feel free to post them there if you like.

 8)

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 
The following users thanked this post: Ed B, maartenb, Bachus

Online Bachus

Re: Montage and Genos
« Reply #20 on: April 16, 2017, 02:05:37 PM »
Thank you Joe, some lovely documents....

I will surely share them on www.keyszone.boards.net

I am pretty sure it will make some people happy


Sad thing however, you cant create  your own arps on the Montage...
Thats one of the weaker things on the montage..
I can understand how the montage forces you to use A daw for audio and midi recordings
But not being able to create your own arps, is a non go for me..
Also the low number of user arps that can be loaded and stored is a bugger..


Another weak point is the midi implementation
Where its not possible to send midi to a Midi module and a computer over USB at the same time..
Also there are 3 midi templates for recording.. but no template for using the DAW for playback or playing VSTs trough the Daw...


When you look at the Motif... there are quite some things that missed the Montage ship.. but would fair well on board of the Genos..


Tomorrow i will be visiting a demo by Michel Voncken, maybe i will get some answers from him... altough, i dont expect tough, we all know how tightlipped these yamaha people are..
Life is like a box of chocolats, you never know what you are gonna get, so enjoy them all.  I am wayting for the next box of chocolate the Yamaha Genos.

Admin of : www.keyszone.boards.net
 

Online Joe H

Re: Montage and Genos
« Reply #21 on: April 16, 2017, 03:43:25 PM »

... Sad thing however, you cant create  your own arps on the Montage...
Thats one of the weaker things on the montage..
I can understand how the montage forces you to use A daw for audio and midi recordings
But not being able to create your own arps, is a non go for me..
Also the low number of user arps that can be loaded and stored is a bugger..

Another weak point is...  its not possible to send midi to a Midi module and a computer over USB at the same time..
Also there are 3 midi templates for recording.. but no template for using the DAW for playback or playing VSTs through the Daw...

When you look at the Motif... there are quite some things that missed the Montage ship.. but would fair well on board of the Genos...

Tomorrow i will be visiting a demo by Michel Voncken, maybe i will get some answers from him... although, i dont expect tough, we all know how tight lipped these yamaha people are..

I haven't looked at the Montage MIDI implementation, but those shortcomings you mention are serious flaws.  It seems they could be fixed with firmware updates.  Let's hope that will be the case. 

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline maartenb

Re: Montage and Genos
« Reply #22 on: April 17, 2017, 05:36:39 AM »
Tomorrow i will be visiting a demo by Michel Voncken, maybe i will get some answers from him...
Hi Bachus,

Please share your experience with us, even if Michel doesn't say anything.

Thanks in advance,

Maarten
 

Online Bachus

Re: Montage and Genos
« Reply #23 on: April 17, 2017, 08:06:48 AM »
Hi Bachus,

Please share your experience with us, even if Michel doesn't say anything.

Thanks in advance,

Maarten

Michel was playing a little when we walked in. But stopped shortly after because one of the employees at keyboard centrum Eindhoven was making a sale on the psr 970 and needed to play it.. his playing on the tyros 5 was lovely as allways..

But i also needed to conclude that Michel was quickly becomming his old self again, he did not shave, not even comb his hair... he looked almost like his old self again as he gained at least 20 kg since i saw him last time ..

Well, i talked a little with Michel...  but it was quite obvious he would not share any information about a possible Tyros5 replacement... other that that it would still take some time before we would see the next totl arranger or tyros 5 replacement....  the one thing i noted, he specifically did not say Tyros 6.

We (my wife and i) where in the shop for over an hour, but he did not play again.. i pkayed a little with the latest Roland RD2000, which has the best piano action in a stage piano i ever played... and then we left, as we had other appointments in the afternoon
« Last Edit: April 17, 2017, 08:09:05 AM by Bachus »
Life is like a box of chocolats, you never know what you are gonna get, so enjoy them all.  I am wayting for the next box of chocolate the Yamaha Genos.

Admin of : www.keyszone.boards.net
 

Online Joe H

Re: Montage and Genos
« Reply #24 on: April 17, 2017, 08:19:41 AM »
Well, i talked a little with Michel...  but it was quite obvious he would not share any information about a possible Tyros5 replacement... other that that it would still take some time before we would see the next totl arranger or tyros 5 replacement....  the one thing i noted, he specifically did not say Tyros 6.

Well this suggests we will see a new and different kind of arranger in the near future... does it not?    ???

Joe H

Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Online Bachus

Re: Montage and Genos
« Reply #25 on: April 17, 2017, 10:35:14 AM »
Well this suggests we will see a new and different kind of arranger in the near future... does it not?    ???

Joe H

You need to ask yourself, was it my perception, or his intention...

I seriously dont know, maybe its a matter of trying to hear what you want to hear... instead of what he was actually saying...  but yes, that was my conclusion to...

Life is like a box of chocolats, you never know what you are gonna get, so enjoy them all.  I am wayting for the next box of chocolate the Yamaha Genos.

Admin of : www.keyszone.boards.net
 

Online Bachus

Re: Montage and Genos
« Reply #26 on: April 23, 2017, 05:07:01 AM »
Bachus,

As far as arp variations go on the Yamaha arranger, it would be possible to create up to 3 variations for a single style Part, and do this for 2 different style Parts.  The variations would play only with specifically assigned chord types.   This is something I will be experimenting with since the Motif offers 5 variations per Voice or Multi. 

If I had the space for another keyboard I would have went with an MOXF 6 (instead of a sound module) which would make things a bit easier with it's built-in sequencer and panel controls... but I can record the Motif Rack XS arps to the S970 sequencer and create the controls with the Peavey PC1600x 16 sliders and 16 buttons.

Thanks for the links.  I've downloaded some documents on arps for myself also.  It will be interesting to see what the next Yamaha arranger will offer.

Joe H

Joe, i forgot to mention.. you can make the Motif XS rack even more formidable with the Karma for Motif software...  having a setup with yamaha arps, karma, styles and multipads gives you all the tools you will ever need...

Where Yamaha arps are static patterns... Karma (arps) GE's offer much more freedom...  i tought about mentioning this to you earlier this morning while creating a post about Karma for Kronos

http://keyszone.boards.net/thread/275/creating-basic-korg-kronos-karma

Life is like a box of chocolats, you never know what you are gonna get, so enjoy them all.  I am wayting for the next box of chocolate the Yamaha Genos.

Admin of : www.keyszone.boards.net
 

Online Joe H

Re: Montage and Genos
« Reply #27 on: April 23, 2017, 08:20:17 AM »
Hi Bachus,

You and I are in the minority when it comes to what we want in a keyboard.  We want a hybrid board with performance features and arranger features.

I've looked into Motif KARMA, but not sure I want to get into it.  I have listened to some demos and don't hear the music I want to play.  As you have stated some time ago... KARMA is complicated software.  The problem with KARMA for the Motif Rack XS is that all the (keyboard)  Panel buttons, knobs and sliders are missing which are an important component for using the KARMA software.  The Motif KARMA was designed to work well with the Motif keyboard and closely emulate the performance of the built-in KARMA on the Korg keyboards by using the Motif Panel controls. 

What I'm working on right now is "how to" arranger - Motif integration that makes the Motif work as an extension of the arranger keyboard.  I have a few ideas on how to do that.  There is real potential there.  As I said earlier on... once I get it sorted out I will start a thread on the topic.  There is a lot of issues to cover.

Yes, the arps in the arranger are static because they are MIDI recordings of arps.  The arps in the Motif are LIVE arps that follow your playing and respond to many CCs and sysex commands allowing you to change the note Gate Time, Velocity, Octave Range, Filter, Resonance, Attack, Decay and Release real-time... simultaneously.  So with a single arp pattern it is possible to create many variations using these real-time modifiers and also by varying the note sequence and patterns played on the keyboard.  These modified (real-time) arps can then be recorded to create new and interesting style Parts and Multi Pads that are NOT so static in nature.   This is the value of real-time controllers for the arranger.  Playing music on an arranger does not have to sound like canned music if Yamaha would just give us the tools to create expressive music. 

I tried to get Arp and LIVE CONTROL MIDI Data Formats for the PSR S970 from Yamaha... they told me they don't exist.  But they do exist for the Motif. So my goal is to make the Motif a hardware "Expansion Pack" of the PSR S970.  The result will be the equivalent of the hybrid synth/arranger instrument I am looking for.  I'm also working on some new Voice packs and techniques for elaborate music productions using the Motif arps and Multis, Multi Pads, custom Voices and multi-style variations in registration banks.

 8)

Joe H

 
« Last Edit: April 23, 2017, 08:28:13 AM by Joe H »
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline ugawoga

Re: Montage and Genos
« Reply #28 on: April 24, 2017, 04:48:24 AM »
Hi

I just want the next Keyboard to have top sounds and a better way off editing
Editing meaning a good software program to go with the keyboard Invented by Yamaha
To Include sound  style and Piano roll . Also with no Sys Ex problems
Forget arpeggiators as you can always string a sequence of notes together easily. and repeat them.
More Memory!!!! :)

More live control
The trouble with the latest keyboards is that it is all centered around playing sequences instead of getting on with it
This Is my 66 year old opinion
New age music can be played well without arps and sequences and that Is where your individual stamp will be put. Make em yourself. :o


all the best
john
« Last Edit: April 24, 2017, 04:53:59 AM by ugawoga »
 

Offline EileenL

Re: Montage and Genos
« Reply #29 on: April 24, 2017, 06:14:50 AM »
It all depends on what sort of player you are as to whether an arranger keyboard sounds like canned music.
  I am puzzled as to why such a lot of players want to do covers of existing artist. The keyboard is a very expressive instrument and one where you can play your own arrangements which are part of you as a person.

Online Joe H

Re: Montage and Genos
« Reply #30 on: April 24, 2017, 08:04:25 AM »
... Forget arpeggiators as you can always string a sequence of notes together easily. and repeat them...  More live control... New age music can be played well without arps and sequences and that Is where your individual stamp will be put. Make em yourself. :o

John,

It could be that you just lack experience with playing live Arpeggiators.  They require  some skill and require the player to develop playing techniques.  There are many advanced arps these days that you could not possibly play or create even by step-record methods.  Many of Yamaha's new arps work much like our arranger keyboards chord recognition and use algorithms that allow us to create variations of the arp real-time depending on what notes we are playing and the use of real-time modulators.

I posted some documents on Yamaha arps just this past week above on this thread.  Yamaha has evolved arps way beyond the traditional "broken chord" concept of the original "arpeggio" definition.

Joe H
« Last Edit: April 24, 2017, 08:12:55 AM by Joe H »
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Online Joe H

Re: Montage and Genos
« Reply #31 on: April 24, 2017, 08:09:13 AM »
It all depends on what sort of player you are as to whether an arranger keyboard sounds like canned music.

Eileen,

My referral to canned music simply means the repetition of the Main Sections.  This can be overcome by arranging music using registrations to add variety with Multi Pads, and different versions of a style, and also with the use of real-time control using knobs, sliders, and  foot pedals.

Regards,
Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline ugawoga

Re: Montage and Genos
« Reply #32 on: April 24, 2017, 11:33:40 AM »
Hey Joe!!!

I take your point and have a look Into what you are saying.
you can make your own quite simply but It might have got more High tech.
I like strange music really from my prog rock days  and psych is my bag at 66.
Also a fan of Jarre,Wakeman and Jorden Rudess.


To answer Eileen ,why do we do covers.It is because It gives you more dexterity when playing and drives you to possibly make your own music.
Playing other peoples music helps the learning process and It all depends on how much spare time you have for composing your own music.
I will write space rock at some point and that is the future or I will go down a big black hole somewhere Nanu nanu!!! 8) :o


All the best
john :P

Online Bachus

Re: Montage and Genos
« Reply #33 on: June 06, 2017, 12:09:54 PM »
Bachus,

What you are suggesting is a Montage- Arranger Workstation (Montage with Tyros style player and Multi Pad functions added)

I don't think we will see this happen anytime soon.

 ;)

Joe H

I had a friends montage over at my house for the whole weekend as he was out of town..

I can tell you that the thing that makes the Montage really incredible is the interface...

Not just the sliders, knobs and scene buttons to the left, which are so nice to have with all the led indicators.. no more guessing where a sliders orriginal position is at... but everything right there visuall for your eyes...

But also the touchscreen interface and menu structure, which for someone with basic knowledge of synthesis works like a charm.. wether you use a basic performance of up to 8 channels(sounds) which worls like a dream.. or want to dive deep into edditing the sound.. it feels very very naturall

But the thing that surprised me most, is everything that can be done with the 4 rows of 8 buttons to the right.. they continously change in function based on what you want them to do.. or on what you have selected on the screen.

Also the sound is very good, espescially the dsp power is huge compared to... and you get full integration with Cubase on top of all of that..


I really think that all they need to do is add an arranger part, and everyone would be happy..  or maybe just make a Genos "desktop" module... with some integration towards the montage.. that could give people an all in option
Life is like a box of chocolats, you never know what you are gonna get, so enjoy them all.  I am wayting for the next box of chocolate the Yamaha Genos.

Admin of : www.keyszone.boards.net
 

Offline maartenb

Re: Montage and Genos
« Reply #34 on: June 08, 2017, 05:42:52 AM »
Thanks for sharing your experiences with the Montage, Bachus! It's very helpful.

It's good news for me, since I expect the interface of the Genos to have similarities with the Montage interface/screen.

We'll see.


Maarten
 

Offline Jeff Hollande

Re: Montage and Genos
« Reply #35 on: June 08, 2017, 08:15:17 AM »
Hi Gents,

Today I have received an e-mail in which some Tyros players are saying they are afraid the new Genos software ( styles and voices ) will not work in their present Tyros keyboards.

They could be right but Yamaha might add some conversion prog that will allow to play some older Tyros software in the Genos, I guess. 

I believe the Tyros periode will be over once the Genos will be launched.

I would not be surprised this new Genos software will be partly installed in the S770 and S790 successors. In 2018 perhaps ?

Jeff



XGW - SONAR PLATINUM - CUBASE 8 WIN - MIXCRAFT8
 

Offline mikf

Re: Montage and Genos
« Reply #36 on: June 08, 2017, 10:30:51 AM »
John
Think you misinterpreted Eileen's comment on 'covers'. I believe she was using 'cover'  to mean a close copy of the well known recording arrangement of a song, rather than a personal interpretation of the same song. I think the answer is that the public like hearing the familiar version of a song, so many performers try to give it to them.

Mike
 

Offline maartenb

Re: Montage and Genos
« Reply #37 on: June 10, 2017, 10:39:48 AM »
the new Genos software ( styles and voices ) will not work in their present Tyros keyboards.
I don't want to sound harsh, but eh... isn't this normal?  For example, the SFF2 styles cannot be played on a SFF style engine, but the other way around it works just fine?

It's highly likely that the new style format will not work on the Tyros. Maybe some Genos styles can be "backported" in a lower quality to the Tyros...

Maarten
« Last Edit: June 17, 2017, 04:26:52 AM by maartenb »
 

Online Joe H

Re: Montage and Genos
« Reply #38 on: June 10, 2017, 01:21:53 PM »
Hi Gents,

Today I have received an e-mail in which some Tyros players are saying they are afraid the new Genos software ( styles and voices ) will not work in their present Tyros keyboards.

They could be right but Yamaha might add some conversion prog that will allow to play some older Tyros software in the Genos, I guess. 

I believe the Tyros period will be over once the Genos will be launched.

I would not be surprised this new Genos software will be partly installed in the S770 and S790 successors. In 2018 perhaps ?

Jeff

That's always a possibility, especially if Yamaha decided to go with more audio parts in the styles such as bass or phases as audio instead of MIDI.  If Yamaha goes in that direction, I will probably never upgrade.  If they change the format from MIDI Type 0 to MIDI Type 1 that would be an improvement because it would allow more variations in styles including possible random drum fills, random arpeggios, or chord patterns, etc.

The only reason to go to audio styles would be to make it harder for us to create our own custom styles... unless there is some kind of Arranger / Cubase Integration where audio files created in Cubase could be converted to audio styles.  But as far as I'm concerned, audio is more limiting, time consuming and far more costly than MIDI-based styles.

Speculation at this point is pointless.  We will just have to wait and see what is coming. If Yamaha does push forward with their own version of Audya, they should make a dedicated arranger for that and keep the MIDI-based style arrangers as well.  There is very little limitation with what we can do with the current arrangers, but improvements could be made to make composing and arranging music a little easier, such as the ability to "chain" registrations together in a motion sequencer, so when we build an arrangement, we could play the complete sequenced arrangement.  the big thing would be a chord sequencer, where we could just enter the chords on a graphic interface... yes a better...detailed "graphic" interface.

Just some thoughts.    ;D

Joe H
« Last Edit: June 10, 2017, 01:23:02 PM by Joe H »
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline Roger Brenizer

Re: Montage and Genos
« Reply #39 on: June 10, 2017, 01:27:49 PM »
Really great post, Joe.  I hope others think so also.  :) :) :)
"Music Is My Life"
My best regards,
Roger

(The older I get...the better I used to be...LOL!!!)
Rogers PSR Performer Page
 

Offline Jeff Hollande

Re: Montage and Genos
« Reply #40 on: June 10, 2017, 02:04:28 PM »
No ( more ) audio styles in our keyboards, plse !
Midi styles only !

Jeff
XGW - SONAR PLATINUM - CUBASE 8 WIN - MIXCRAFT8
 

Offline ugawoga

Re: Montage and Genos
« Reply #41 on: June 12, 2017, 12:38:21 PM »
Hi

I would say to Yamaha give us a great piece of software to go with the new keyboard

A workable DAW that is dedicated to the Genos or whatever with great edit features and a decent piano roll.
All other Daws like Sonar and Cubase and others  are glitchy with the Tyros and you are forever trying to find workarounds.

Yes ,cut out Audio Styles as they are a pain. They are no better than midi styles In my view.
I find the midi styles warmer sounding.

Also Please Yamaha tone down the kick drum default in styles,but that is a small want as you can edit them.

I would like to see registrations changes glitch free as sounds can carry over.
To get perfect changes you have to match all the volume levels,or quickly take your hands off the keyboard and wait in a split second which is hard sometimes.Sometimes drum breaks miss
If I can remember the old Technics 2000 was faultess for drum and reg changes.
Bigger memory another wish.
I am not personally worried about a touchscreen as I would rather have other things like the perfect Daw .(Love Buttons)CHOCOLATE ONES!!

Cut out music finders and unnessesary things and have the must haves which is Quality.
All this is In my view. :P


All the :D best
John
« Last Edit: June 12, 2017, 12:45:09 PM by ugawoga »