Author Topic: MULTI PAD CONTROL  (Read 3905 times)

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Offline Enildo

MULTI PAD CONTROL
« on: February 22, 2017, 09:26:35 AM »
I do not know if it makes any difference to other players here in the forum, but I wanted the next TOTL arranger to have more "MULTI PAD CONTROL" in one bank.
At least 8, equal to "REGISTRATION MEMORY". 4 Pads is very limited and we often need to use more than one for our performances.

Hug to everyone,
Enildo
Psr s970 - The best PSR!
 

Offline Fred Smith

Re: MULTI PAD CONTROL
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2017, 10:00:31 AM »
I do not know if it makes any difference to other players here in the forum, but I wanted the next TOTL arranger to have more "MULTI PAD CONTROL" in one bank.
At least 8, equal to "REGISTRATION MEMORY". 4 Pads is very limited and we often need to use more than one for our performances.

Hug to everyone,
Enildo

Your problem is the midi standard. There are 16 tracks in midi, and Yamaha uses 4 for voices (left, right1, right2, right3), 4 for the multipads, and 8 for styles. To add more tracks would be a significant change, wouldn't be backward compatible.

Surely you don't use more than 4 multipads at once. With that being the case, why not just load the next pads with a registration?

Fred
Fred Smith,
Saskatoon, SK
Sun Lakes, AZ
Tyros 4, Bose L1, Finale 2011
Check out my Registration Lessons
 

Offline Enildo

Re: MULTI PAD CONTROL
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2017, 10:35:26 AM »
Your problem is the midi standard. There are 16 tracks in midi, and Yamaha uses 4 for voices (left, right1, right2, right3), 4 for the multipads, and 8 for styles. To add more tracks would be a significant change, wouldn't be backward compatible.

Surely you don't use more than 4 multipads at once. With that being the case, why not just load the next pads with a registration?

Fred

The Midi settings are editable. For example, in place of a multipad I can choose any track (Right1, Right2, Rhythm1, Bass or any other). This is optional.
If I want to record the 16 tracks with "Right1", I can record, just select.
Yamaha just suggests you pick those parts, Fred!

That would be no problem.
Psr s970 - The best PSR!
 

Offline mark fernando

Re: MULTI PAD CONTROL
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2017, 11:03:24 AM »
Dear all,

When particular multi pad bank is chosen the four pads will  have four different voices/content. Is it possible to use different voices from different banks in a one registration?

Thanks

Mark
 

Offline Enildo

Re: MULTI PAD CONTROL
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2017, 11:37:35 AM »
Dear all,

When particular multi pad bank is chosen the four pads will  have four different voices/content. Is it possible to use different voices from different banks in a one registration?

Thanks

Mark

Hi mark! If you want you can mount your bank of 4 multipads copying from other banks. Now if what you are asking is if you can put two different voices in one same "PAD", this is not possible.

Enildo
Psr s970 - The best PSR!
 

Online Joe H

Re: MULTI PAD CONTROL
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2017, 11:42:34 AM »
Mark and Enildo,

It might help if you read my article and download my example registration files.  The link is right below in my signature.  There is a whole lot you can do once you understand how the keyboard is designed.  You don't need 8 Multi Pads, just some creative thinking.

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline Enildo

Re: MULTI PAD CONTROL
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2017, 12:46:55 PM »
Mark and Enildo,

It might help if you read my article and download my example registration files.  The link is right below in my signature.  There is a whole lot you can do once you understand how the keyboard is designed.  You don't need 8 Multi Pads, just some creative thinking.

Joe H

Thanks Joe for the "REGISTRATION FILES". On how to use the Multipads I understand perfectly.
But if a multipads bank had 8 pads, we could split the number of files used by half.

Enildo
Psr s970 - The best PSR!
 

Offline Enildo

Re: MULTI PAD CONTROL
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2017, 02:39:29 PM »
Mark and Enildo,

It might help if you read my article and download my example registration files.  The link is right below in my signature.  There is a whole lot you can do once you understand how the keyboard is designed.  You don't need 8 Multi Pads, just some creative thinking.

Joe H

"Techniques For Creating, Editing,
And Using Multi Pads For Contemporary Dance Music "


Congratulations on the article Joe! Then I'll read it more calmly.
Psr s970 - The best PSR!
 

Online Joe H

Re: MULTI PAD CONTROL
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2017, 06:10:33 PM »
The techniques are the same no matter what kind of music you play.  I find if I create a style using all 8 Parts at once... plus 4 Multi Pads at once along with the 8 style Parts.  Those 12 Parts plus Left Voice and R1/R2 right hand playing are a lot of music and can be quite busy.  Unless you playing a classical music piece, 15 or 16 channels going at once is enough.  And even with classical music, Ensemble Voices can make of the difference to give us a full orchestral sound.

... just my humble opinion though.   ;D

Joe H
« Last Edit: March 04, 2017, 02:32:50 PM by Joe H »
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Online Bachus

Re: MULTI PAD CONTROL
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2017, 12:53:09 PM »
Your problem is the midi standard. There are 16 tracks in midi, and Yamaha uses 4 for voices (left, right1, right2, right3), 4 for the multipads, and 8 for styles. To add more tracks would be a significant change, wouldn't be backward compatible.

Surely you don't use more than 4 multipads at once. With that being the case, why not just load the next pads with a registration?

Fred

Yamaha also uses 16 more channels for sequencer..


The 16 limit only is a limit for sending midi over a physical midi cable...


Tyros allready is 32 part multi timbral... which means 32 channels... and i dont see any reason not to add more...  as long as you do t need to assign a physical midi channel to every part... there is no limit... 


I myself would love to see, a tyros 6 with 16 multipads, 16 sequencer, 8 styles and 8 keyboard parts...
Life is like a box of chocolats, you never know what you are gonna get, so enjoy them all.  I am wayting for the next box of chocolate the Yamaha Genos.

Admin of : www.keyszone.boards.net
 

Offline Enildo

Re: MULTI PAD CONTROL
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2017, 03:27:11 PM »
Thanks for the comments Joe and Bachus.

Joe, it's not about using it all at once. If I had 8 pads, I would decrease the amount of files on the pendrive, not because of space, but because of organization.
With 8 pads, or 16 pads, as Bachus defended, we could use only one file to make just one set with several recorded performances.

I record some "INTROS" of songs that I do not play often, for example: in Brazil "Canaval" is from year to year, so as not to waste time with exhaustive rehearsals, I record the "INTROS" in multipads and this consumes several files Multipads. All these "INTROS" I use two voices together (brass + brass sampled), and this already consumes 2 multipads + 2 phrases = 4 multipads. I have 30 carnival songs in my repertoire = 30 multipads files, when it could decrease to 15. The files would decrease and the organization would be much better.

I do not know if I'm making you understand. Hug to everyone!
Enildo.
Psr s970 - The best PSR!
 

Online Joe H

Re: MULTI PAD CONTROL
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2017, 07:22:48 PM »
Enildo,

You might be better off doing that sort of thing in a style file.  You can record Main Sections with chord progressions.  This is what is done with the "DJ Styles" on the newest PSR arrangers.

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline soundphase

Re: MULTI PAD CONTROL
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2017, 05:46:44 AM »
Yamaha also uses 16 more channels for sequencer..


The 16 limit only is a limit for sending midi over a physical midi cable...


Tyros allready is 32 part multi timbral... which means 32 channels... and i dont see any reason not to add more...  as long as you do t need to assign a physical midi channel to every part... there is no limit... 


I myself would love to see, a tyros 6 with 16 multipads, 16 sequencer, 8 styles and 8 keyboard parts...
I agree, I think it's more a problem concerning CPU, RAM and real-time process synchronization (not easy) ...

Nevertheless, there are classical musical theoritical rules that indicate that as human, we don't "receive" all information. Sometimes, a good quiet silence is better than too much simultaneous sounds ....
So I'm not convinced that improving polyphony capabilities to add more parts will be something good.

I would prefer to use CPU and RAM for polyphony to correctly resolve sound drops when we switch registrations.

Regards
Soundphase

Online Joe H

Re: MULTI PAD CONTROL
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2017, 07:26:29 AM »
Bachus,

My understanding is you have an engineering background so you should know that the MIDI Specification allows only 16 MIDI channels.  The Tyros and PSRs can play 32 MIDI channels because there are 2 MIDI buses that are the equivalent to 2 separate MIDI sound modules.  That's the easy part.

Having a 32 part style is not possible with Yamaha's current style that uses SMF Type 0 format which uses 1 track with 16 channels.  Had they went with Type 1 files which would use separate tracks for style parts there would be plenty of room for lots of tracks.

Our keyboards are nothing but a bunch of sequencers.  The MIDI recorder/player, the Style recorder/player, the Multi Pad recorder/player, Voice Set, and possibly Registrations.


Soundphase,

The dropout caused when switching registrations is caused by truncating the effects of the current DSP processors.  This was fixed in the Montage I think by simply adding more effects processors, so we may see that carried over to the next arranger.   What we really need is a larger capacity MIDI sequencer (recorder) in the arranger.  33,000 note capacity is obsolete in the new PSRs with the more complex styles and live arpeggiator, and real-time LIVE CONTROL... all of which can generate a lot of MIDI data.

The current style format, Multi Pad bank format and registration bank format are very flexible and quite adequate if you learn how to use them.  I do believe we will see an improvement with registrations in the next arranger though which will implement real-time sequencing.  This will in effect double the capability of each registration by allowing time sequenced changes per xx number of bars programmed into each registration button.

Joe H
« Last Edit: March 04, 2017, 02:35:21 PM by Joe H »
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline maartenb

Re: MULTI PAD CONTROL
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2017, 08:12:42 AM »
I do believe we will see an improvement with registrations in the next arranger though which will implement real-time sequencing.  This will in effect double the capability of each registration by allowing time sequenced changes per xx number of bars programmed into each registration button.
+1

This would be awesome! You can combine multiple fast switching registrations into only one, so you can concentrate on playing.

Now a chord sequencer added to that and one can play awesome solo's!


Maarten
 

Offline Enildo

Re: MULTI PAD CONTROL
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2017, 09:40:14 AM »
Enildo,

You might be better off doing that sort of thing in a style file.  You can record Main Sections with chord progressions.  This is what is done with the "DJ Styles" on the newest PSR arrangers.

Joe H

I do not understand Joe, can you explain it better?
Psr s970 - The best PSR!
 

Offline mark fernando

Re: MULTI PAD CONTROL
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2017, 11:51:50 AM »
thanks you guys! Will try as explained and let you know.

Best Regards!

Mark
 

Online Joe H

Re: MULTI PAD CONTROL
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2017, 04:46:10 PM »
I record some "INTROS" of songs that I do not play often, for example: in Brazil "Canaval" is from year to year, so as not to waste time with exhaustive rehearsals, I record the "INTROS" in multipads and this consumes several files Multipads. All these "INTROS" I use two voices together (brass + brass sampled), and this already consumes 2 multipads + 2 phrases = 4 multipads. I have 30 carnival songs in my repertoire = 30 multipads files, when it could decrease to 15. The files would decrease and the organization would be much better.

What I'm suggesting is that you record your Intros in both style Intros 1, 2 and 3 as well as in style Main Sections (but of coarse they will repeat themselves if you don't stop the Main Sections manually.

Even if you just recorded your Intros in the 3 style Intro Sections, each could have up to 32 bars and you could layer your Voices with 8 style channels / parts to use instead of just the 4 Multi Pad channels.  These would probably be easier to record as well as a style since Style Creator allows you to quantize.  (which I don't think you can do in Multi Pad Creator.

Joe H
« Last Edit: February 24, 2017, 04:47:36 PM by Joe H »
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline Enildo

Re: MULTI PAD CONTROL
« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2017, 08:13:36 AM »
What I'm suggesting is that you record your Intros in both style Intros 1, 2 and 3 as well as in style Main Sections (but of coarse they will repeat themselves if you don't stop the Main Sections manually.

Even if you just recorded your Intros in the 3 style Intro Sections, each could have up to 32 bars and you could layer your Voices with 8 style channels / parts to use instead of just the 4 Multi Pad channels.  These would probably be easier to record as well as a style since Style Creator allows you to quantize.  (which I don't think you can do in Multi Pad Creator.

Joe H

Thanks for the suggestion Joe, but if you are going to record the "INTROs" one by one, it will give you a lot more work. You would have to record all the chords one by one on at least 6 tracks. It's a lot more work like that.

Cheers,

Enildo
Psr s970 - The best PSR!
 

Online Joe H

Re: MULTI PAD CONTROL
« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2017, 08:19:42 AM »
enildo,

I'm not sure exactly what you mean... but you do NOT have to record chord progressions in an Intro.  I have created several Intros that play just like the Main Sections so I can play the chords myself.  This is a more flexible way to create Intros so they can be used with many different songs in either Major key Signature or Minor Key Signature.

Cheers,
Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline Enildo

Re: MULTI PAD CONTROL
« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2017, 10:16:16 AM »
enildo,

I'm not sure exactly what you mean... but you do NOT have to record chord progressions in an Intro.  I have created several Intros that play just like the Main Sections so I can play the chords myself.  This is a more flexible way to create Intros so they can be used with many different songs in either Major key Signature or Minor Key Signature.

Cheers,
Joe H

Thank you Joe. What you said is true. I had not stopped to think that way. Just copy the "MAIN" you want in "ASSEMBLY" to "INTRO" and leave the phrases in "ROOT FIXED / BY PASS" and play the chords the way you want. Thanks for the suggestion, friend!

That's why I love this forum!

Hug,
Enildo
Psr s970 - The best PSR!
 

Online Bachus

Re: MULTI PAD CONTROL
« Reply #21 on: February 28, 2017, 08:34:27 AM »
Bachus,

My understanding is you have an engineering background so you should know that the MIDI Specification allows only 16 MIDI channels.  The Tyros and PSRs can play 32 MIDI channels because there are 2 MIDI buses that are the equivalent to 2 separate MIDI sound modules.  That's the easy part.

Having a 32 part style is not possible with Yamaha's current style that uses SMF Type 0 format which uses 1 track with 16 channels.  Had they went with Type 1 files which would use separate tracks for style parts there would be plenty of room for lots of tracks.

Our keyboards are nothing but a bunch of sequencers.  The MIDI recorder/player, the Style recorder/player, the Multi Pad recorder/player, Voice Set, and possibly Registrations.


Soundphase,

The dropout caused when switching registrations is caused by truncating the effects of the current DSP processors.  This was fixed in the Montage I think by simply adding more effects processors, so we may see that carried over to the next arranger.   What we really need is a larger capacity MIDI sequencer (recorder) in the arranger.  33,000 not capacity is obsolete in the new PSRs with the more complex styles and live arpeggiator, and real-time LIVE CONTROL... all of which can generate a lot of MIDI data.

The current style format, Multi Pad bank format and registration bank format are very flexible and quite adequate if you learn how to use them.  I do believe we will see an improvement with registrations in the next arranger though which will implement real-time sequencing.  This will in effect double the capability of each registration by allowing time sequenced changes per xx number of bars programmed into each registration button.

Joe H

The midi standard allows 16 channels on a single cable... thats what i said..

The midi standard is what goes out and into the instrument, but inside the yamaha sound engine there are no midi rules yet...  midi is a limitation when communicating with other devices... but not inside the sound engine... 
Life is like a box of chocolats, you never know what you are gonna get, so enjoy them all.  I am wayting for the next box of chocolate the Yamaha Genos.

Admin of : www.keyszone.boards.net
 

Offline maartenb

Re: MULTI PAD CONTROL
« Reply #22 on: February 28, 2017, 11:26:36 AM »
I have created several Intros that play just like the Main Sections so I can play the chords myself.  This is a more flexible way to create Intros so they can be used with many different songs in either Major key Signature or Minor Key Signature.
+1  I love playable Intro/Outro. They were standard on my Roland G-70 and they were fantastic. I used them all the time.

This short video demonstrates this beautifully.


Maarten

 

Online Joe H

Re: MULTI PAD CONTROL
« Reply #23 on: February 28, 2017, 12:32:20 PM »
The midi standard allows 16 channels on a single cable... thats what i said..

The midi standard is what goes out and into the instrument, but inside the yamaha sound engine there are no midi rules yet...  midi is a limitation when communicating with other devices... but not inside the sound engine...

Bachus,

If Yamaha changed the style format as you suggest, we would NOT be able to edit the styles at all.  Currently, because Yamaha is following the MIDI spec, we can edit and create our own styles... BECAUSE... the style format is SMF Type 0.  If they changed it to a non-conforming MIDI format, the fun is over... unless Yamaha were to release a proprietary style maker program, and I am beginning to doubt they will ever release any style maker software. 

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Online Bachus

Re: MULTI PAD CONTROL
« Reply #24 on: February 28, 2017, 01:03:39 PM »
Bachus,

If Yamaha changed the style format as you suggest, we would NOT be able to edit the styles at all.  Currently, because Yamaha is following the MIDI spec, we can edit and create our own styles... BECAUSE... the style format is SMF Type 0.  If they changed it to a non-conforming MIDI format, the fun is over... unless Yamaha were to release a proprietary style maker program, and I am beginning to doubt they will ever release any style maker software. 

Joe H

We are talking two different things here Joe...

You are talking the style engine, i am talking the sound engine...


And with only 8 style tracks... there is still room for 8 more...

Yet still i dont see the limitation... as you see it...

If they did things smart, they could have 16 sequencer tracks, 16 style tracks, 16 pads and 16 keyboard parts...  in the same way they now have 16 sequencer + 8 style + 4 pads + 4 keyboard parts...    yet, you would need to make choices which ones to use external over the midi ports, and which would only be available internal based on your needs....


The only limitation midi has is having 16 parts on a cable...  and 16 parts in a general midi compliant file...  yet how the internal routing of the sounds is is totally inrelevant to the midi protocol..
Life is like a box of chocolats, you never know what you are gonna get, so enjoy them all.  I am wayting for the next box of chocolate the Yamaha Genos.

Admin of : www.keyszone.boards.net
 

Online Joe H

Re: MULTI PAD CONTROL
« Reply #25 on: February 28, 2017, 03:08:29 PM »
We are talking two different things here Joe...

You are talking the style engine, i am talking the sound engine...


And with only 8 style tracks... there is still room for 8 more...

Yet still i dont see the limitation... as you see it...

If they did things smart, they could have 16 sequencer tracks, 16 style tracks, 16 pads and 16 keyboard parts...  in the same way they now have 16 sequencer + 8 style + 4 pads + 4 keyboard parts...    yet, you would need to make choices which ones to use external over the midi ports, and which would only be available internal based on your needs....


The only limitation midi has is having 16 parts on a cable...  and 16 parts in a general midi compliant file...  yet how the internal routing of the sounds is is totally inrelevant to the midi protocol..

Bachus,

AS I noted above, the arranger design consists of multiple sequencers already each doing a different task.

There is only 1 track in a style file, with 16 channels available for each style but only 8 channels / parts play at one time... that already exists.  Channels 1 - 8 are used for Alternate Chord types such as when Minor chords are played. 

The Multi Pad sequencer is a MIDI file Type 1, which has 5 tracks, one is a Master Track for setup and various Multi Pad tags... eg; Repeat Switch, Chord Match Codes, Icon number, file Name, Copyright, etc.  The Pads 1 - 4 use MIDI Channels 1 -4.  So.. it would be possible to expand the Multi Pad sequencer, but I don't see a problem with just 4 Pads.

Registration banks are the way to arrange music on the arranger.  I automate the programming in each registration button with Multi Pad Sync Start and Sync Stop.  Each registration can also use a variation of the same style as well to accomplish what you would like to do... so I don't see much limitation there at all.

That's how the Yamaha Arranger is design to be used. 

PS:  And as Fred stated at the beginning of this thread... when you go to record your style and are using R1, R2, R3, Left Voices, plus 4 Multi Pads... you have reached the 16 channel limit.  So... that's why Yamaha uses registration banks to arrange our music.  It allows us to create unlimited variations in styles , Multi Pads and OTS settings to create elaborate arrangements.  It's all there... it's only a matter of learning how to take advantage of the capabilities.

Joe H
« Last Edit: February 28, 2017, 03:15:06 PM by Joe H »
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Online Bachus

Re: MULTI PAD CONTROL
« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2017, 08:13:55 AM »
I think i see where our different opinions come from...

You look to much at what we currently have..
While my opinion is mostly based on what can be in the future..

Thats maybe why we saw that rumor of yamaha leaving behind their current style architecture..
It holds yamaha back from advancing..

But then...  there is allways dozens of solutions to guarrante support for old data formats..
The current state of tyros 5, is limmiting your view..
you see limitations that are only there till things get changed..
Life is like a box of chocolats, you never know what you are gonna get, so enjoy them all.  I am wayting for the next box of chocolate the Yamaha Genos.

Admin of : www.keyszone.boards.net
 

Offline Enildo

Re: MULTI PAD CONTROL
« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2017, 09:31:05 AM »
I think i see where our different opinions come from...

You look to much at what we currently have..
While my opinion is mostly based on what can be in the future..

Thats maybe why we saw that rumor of yamaha leaving behind their current style architecture..
It holds yamaha back from advancing..

But then...  there is allways dozens of solutions to guarrante support for old data formats..
The current state of tyros 5, is limmiting your view..
you see limitations that are only there till things get changed..

I agree with you Bachus. The system adopted by Yamaha today, meets our needs very well, but that does not mean that we can not evolve.
If everything is already good then let's stop here?
Some things seem crazy or we find it unnecessary until we use it and never want to go back to the past.

Enildo
« Last Edit: March 02, 2017, 09:34:46 AM by Enildo »
Psr s970 - The best PSR!
 

Online Joe H

Re: MULTI PAD CONTROL
« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2017, 11:32:22 AM »
I think i see where our different opinions come from...

You look to much at what we currently have..
While my opinion is mostly based on what can be in the future..

Thats maybe why we saw that rumor of yamaha leaving behind their current style architecture..
It holds yamaha back from advancing..

But then...  there is allways dozens of solutions to guarrante support for old data formats..
The current state of tyros 5, is limmiting your view..
you see limitations that are only there till things get changed..

Maybe you should study the MIDI Specification and also learn how your keyboard was designed.  Your wish list is NOT grounded in facts.  I don't see limitations, actually I have stated just the opposite, anything is possible if you know how the Arranger is intended to be used. 

My interpretation of your comments is that you want the Yamaha arranger to work differently than it does.  It's the folks with Korg keyboards that are never happy with Yamaha.  Different manufacturers use different conventions when designing their hardware and firmware.  It's really a matter of what manufacturer you feel most comfortable with.  Having owned Yamaha instruments for more than 25 years, I understand their approach to things and like the way they do things.  Their biggest flaw is poor documentation... which if written well, would be rather costly, so they cut costs by not producing in-depth documentation.

The "flaw" in this approach is that while they may believe they have saved money by not producing good documentation, they spend the money paying people to answer the thousands of phones call and emails they get... because of the poor documentation. 

Joe H
« Last Edit: March 02, 2017, 11:38:45 AM by Joe H »
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline FredrikC

Re: MULTI PAD CONTROL
« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2017, 12:25:04 PM »
I have to say that I don't understand why each of the multi-pads is on a different MIDI channel.  There are four buttons on my keyboard.  Why don't they only take up four note numbers on a single channel?

Or are multi-pads and the four buttons on my keyboard two completely different things?
Fred

Yamaha: Tyros 5 76, DGX-650, YPT-320, DX-7, SY-99 (last two in attic)
Other: Kronos2 88, Fretted Clavichord, Upright Piano, eMu MPS (also in attic)
RCM Certificates: Advanced Rudiments
 

Online Joe H

Re: MULTI PAD CONTROL
« Reply #30 on: March 02, 2017, 02:01:18 PM »
FredrikC,

The Multi Pad player (and Multi Pad Creator) is a 4 channel sequencer, much like the MIDI recorder/player on your keyboard... but maybe it's actually more like the MIDI sequencer Style Player because it plays up to 4 tracks at a time either as a single play and stop or continuous play (loop).  Each Track is assigned a specific MIDI channel.  As I stated above, the style format uses Type 0 files which is 16 channels on 1 track.  the Multi Pad format is Type 1 which uses 4 tracks each using  its own MIDI channel plus the Master track which may contain data for all 4 channels.

You can view the setup in a sequencer by changing the extension from .pad to .mid or simply load a Multi Pad into MixMaster and see how it's constructed.

There is actually 5 tracks.. the 5th one is used as a Master Track with all the setup info on it.  The MIDI data is recorded on channels 1 - 4 but the keyboard bumps these channels to MIDI channels 5, 6, 7 and 8 so when you record to the on-board sequencer, they get recorded on channels 5,6,7,and 8 along with styles which are recorded on channels 9 - 16.  Left, R1, R2, and R3 are recorded on channels 1 - 4.  This consumes all 16 MIDI channels available on the MIDI sequencer.  And as is noted above in Fred Smith's post...  MIDI has a 16 channel limit.

Joe H
« Last Edit: March 04, 2017, 02:44:11 PM by Joe H »
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Online Bachus

Re: MULTI PAD CONTROL
« Reply #31 on: March 03, 2017, 12:44:24 AM »
Maybe you should study the MIDI Specification and also learn how your keyboard was designed.  Your wish list is NOT grounded in facts.  I don't see limitations, actually I have stated just the opposite, anything is possible if you know how the Arranger is intended to be used. 

My interpretation of your comments is that you want the Yamaha arranger to work differently than it does.  It's the folks with Korg keyboards that are never happy with Yamaha.  Different manufacturers use different conventions when designing their hardware and firmware.  It's really a matter of what manufacturer you feel most comfortable with.  Having owned Yamaha instruments for more than 25 years, I understand their approach to things and like the way they do things.  Their biggest flaw is poor documentation... which if written well, would be rather costly, so they cut costs by not producing in-depth documentation.

The "flaw" in this approach is that while they may believe they have saved money by not producing good documentation, they spend the money paying people to answer the thousands of phones call and emails they get... because of the poor documentation. 

Joe H
so having different needs and wants then what Yamaha currently offers is wrong?


I dont think so, neither Yamaha nor Korg nor Ketron is perfect... and in fact they could learn from eachother..

For the Tyros6/Genos i hope they will bring the things that make the montage stand out to the tyros range...  and that they break with the limmitatioms of the current file formats... thats why i think Genos will be quite different from the Tyros 5 pro...  while the Tyros5 line continues as the psr pro series.. why, because it makes sense...


And Joe, dont get angry please because we disagree, there is nothing wrong with disagreeing...


And yes, i think its time for a change for the tyros, current restrictions are holding it back...


And, no its not all wrong, they are doing many many things very good over at Yamaha, its still a splendid instrument as is...  but getting the arranger out to younger people does require some chnages.... and with the venerable state of us Arranger users, pulling in younger people and making more pro musicians interested in these high end arranger keyboards is a must...
« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 12:48:46 AM by Bachus »
Life is like a box of chocolats, you never know what you are gonna get, so enjoy them all.  I am wayting for the next box of chocolate the Yamaha Genos.

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Online Bachus

Re: MULTI PAD CONTROL
« Reply #32 on: March 03, 2017, 01:00:49 AM »
Anyway, back on topic to multipads...  i agree with the OP, as i said before...  having 16 multipads would make it a feature one could use for a lot of music..  adding 16 variations to that making it a 16x16 matrix like ableton woudl make it a perfect tool for edm...

Also very usable witouth arranger, and something the youth would definately understand, as that what they are used to in their modern sequencers... with one difference.. on our arrangers, the midi tracks would not be normal midi tracks but arranger tracks that follow your chord progression...

And thats why this will require an arranger and not a keyboard workstation..

Since in general i am not a man of intro and endings, this would suit me perfect...  and yes, i know 16 channels is overdone...and 16 tracks to..for most purposes... but it helps im some cases...


Anyway, it would turn the pads from something you add on top of an arranger, to someting you can use as a standalone feature...
Life is like a box of chocolats, you never know what you are gonna get, so enjoy them all.  I am wayting for the next box of chocolate the Yamaha Genos.

Admin of : www.keyszone.boards.net
 

Online Joe H

Re: MULTI PAD CONTROL
« Reply #33 on: March 03, 2017, 07:41:43 AM »
so having different needs and wants then what Yamaha currently offers is wrong?

... And Joe, dont get angry please because we disagree, there is nothing wrong with disagreeing...


And yes, i think its time for a change for the tyros, current restrictions are holding it back...

Where did you get the idea I am angry? ... such nonsense!

Maybe this is a case of ... "Ignorance is Bliss"

Joe H
« Last Edit: March 04, 2017, 02:48:11 PM by Joe H »
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline Marcus

Re: MULTI PAD CONTROL
« Reply #34 on: March 08, 2017, 06:31:39 AM »
I do not know if it makes any difference to other players here in the forum, but I wanted the next TOTL arranger to have more "MULTI PAD CONTROL" in one bank.
At least 8, equal to "REGISTRATION MEMORY". 4 Pads is very limited and we often need to use more than one for our performances.

Hug to everyone,
Enildo
Personally, I find the present four Multipad bank perfect and eight pads would only complicate the process. Multipads are primarily designed to use with styles, mostly synchronizing the style chording and tempo.

Actually you can get up to 16 multipad saves stored within a single style with four different multipads or single bank added to to each OTS position. This makes a custom style extremely versatile with no shortage of multipad voices and patterns.

For example, if I setup Style OTS position 1 with organ voices, I can save a Multipad bank with four separate organ multipads to that OTS button. On my Tyros 5, that is LH and 3RH voices, and four multipads to one of the four OTS positions, all triggered manually or linked to the Style Main variations. The second OTS position can have totally different LH/RH voices and multipad bank.

The magic and power of this feature is the fact that while I may have activated Multipad 1 linked to style main variation "A" with say an organ multipad and organ OTS voices, when I go into OTS button two, say perhaps with assigned piano voices, the corresponding piano multipad bank is automatically loaded, however the active organ multipad is still playing, yet any other of the remaining multipads now are actually the saved piano multipad bank. So in effect, any activated multipad (organ multipad) already playing from the previous OTS slot still plays and overlaps the new piano multipad bank.

Say at the end of a chorus of a song, I stop the multipad(s), the held over activated organ multipad stops and now becomes one the assigned piano multipads. Four multipads within a bank is easier to remember than a larger 8 button bank. Also easier to remember what actual multipads belong to each of the four multipad buttons, when themed multipad bank is assigned to a themed OTS save. Again, 16 separate multipads possible with a single style save, plus matched up to your OTS selections. I setup all my styles and songs this way. Note that the Tyros 5 will also allow Ensemble and Organ World OTS saves for huge voice and multipad combo combinations within a style. Only Yamaha offers this, and my top arranger choice.

Yamaha needs to continue with multipads, plus all my complex previous work can be compatible in the next arranger model. Yamaha can certainly improve the multipad control, adding more audio multipad options.

Regards, Marcus

Online Joe H

Re: MULTI PAD CONTROL
« Reply #35 on: March 08, 2017, 08:04:53 AM »
I agree with Marcus completely.  And when you use registrations you can Sync Start and Sync Stop Multi Pads at will with each selection of a registration.

The one big improvement for Multi Pad control would be for Yamaha to add more editing features (controls) in the Mixing Console that are at least equal to editing of the styles and song files.  eg; change:  Voice, Pan, Filter, Resonance, Octave shift, channel EQ, Reverb Send, Chorus Send, and DSP 1 Send. 

This would go a long way in making it so much easier to mix a Multi Pad bank in the same way we can now mix a style.

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html