Author Topic: Question about GM/GM2/GS/XG compatibility  (Read 1215 times)

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Offline SeaGtGruff

Question about GM/GM2/GS/XG compatibility
« on: December 17, 2016, 12:39:13 PM »
Does anyone know how the GM/GM2/GS/XG compatibility works on Yamaha's keyboards? I know that the GM tones are the first bank (MSB 0, LSB 0) of XG tones, and I see GM2 tones listed separately in the Data Lists of models that are GM/GM2/GS/XG compatible, but I don't see any GS tones listed, just a note saying that GS tones are provided for playing GS-compatible files. I guess I understand why Yamaha might not want to list the GS tones, since GS is owned by Roland. (Would even a mere listing of the GS tones and their Bank Select/Program Change values require some sort of licensing agreement with Roland? And then there are the other aspects of GS-- i.e., SysEx, CC. etc.)

But what I'm really asking is whether there are separate/unique wave samples for the GM2 and GS tones, or whether (as with the GM tones) they're taken from the XG wave samples-- i.e., if "GM2/GS-compatibility" simply means that when the keyboard sees a GM2- or GS-specific message, including any Bank Select/Program Change vales that correspond to GM2 or GS tones, the keyboard's OS uses some sort of mapping table to translate that message/tone request into some equivalent XG message/tone?
Michael Rideout
YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443
 

Re: Question about GM/GM2/GS/XG compatibility
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2017, 01:51:46 PM »
Newer Yamaha keyboards has a GS bank, what is usually hidden. MIDI files in GS may recall the GS set.
These are normal XG voices, but sorted differently.
One thing are the drum kits. The GM standard knows one drum kit only and a MIDI file strictly following the GM rules, works fine on any keyboard brand.
But most MIDI file manufacturer labels a MIDI file as "GM", but in fact it's drum track is GS.
In earlier Yamaha's you could notice, that some MIDI files has the hand clapping intro known from the song "Lollypop", because in GS, the brush kit has on the Clap key a brush hit sound. Or the drummer clicks always his sticks, the reason is, Yamaha has a sticks sound, where Roland has a snare drum.
When a GM MIDI file doesn't say to the Yamaha keyboard "I am in GS standard, please give me the correct kit", we have some strange effects sometimes.
There seems to be no way, to re-voice a GM MIDI file, when it's drum parts aren't compatible to XG.
In Tyros 4 you could program custom drum kits, what follows the GS rules, in PSR S series, you can't do it.
I found a solution, but it's difficult to explain and to understand.
 
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Offline Joe H

Re: Question about GM/GM2/GS/XG compatibility
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2017, 02:36:49 PM »
Michael,

On the S910 there was a GS folder.  On the S970, I don't find one.  I think the keyboard OS simply reads the GS Voice message and re-maps the Voice to a GM or GM2 Voice.  In other words, the GS Voices are using the GM wave forms.

Joe H
« Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 06:51:45 AM by Joe H »
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Offline SeaGtGruff

Re: Question about GM/GM2/GS/XG compatibility
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2017, 02:12:13 AM »
Wow, I'd given up on getting an answer, as I figured that the reason no one replied a few months ago was because no one knew! Thank you both for those interesting facts. :)
Michael Rideout
YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443
 

Offline voodoo

Re: Question about GM/GM2/GS/XG compatibility
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2017, 04:17:34 AM »
I found something here:

http://forum.yamaha-europe.com/showthread.php?37755-GS-Midifiles-%28Roland%29-und-Yamaha-Keyboards

Quote
Schon beim Laden werden bei neueren Keyboards (T4, T3 und evtl. T2) GS-Files nach XG-konvertiert. Dabei werden die GS-Voices durch Voices der Banks MSB/LSB = 119/0 und 118/0 ersetzt. Zusätzlich werden noch XG-Effekt-SysExes eingefügt. Diese neuen Voices werden von den Keyboards abgespielt, sind aber nicht in der Voicelist dokumentiert und auch nicht anwählbar. Die veränderten Files können mit dem SongCreator abspeichert werden.

Translated:

Quote
When a new keyboard (T4, T3, T2) loads a GS file, is is been converted to XG internally. GS voices are replaced by voices from banks 119/0 and 118/0. Additionally, Sysex commands are inserted for XG effects. The new voices are played by the keyboard, but they are not documented and cannot be selected for playing. The converted files can be saved using the SongCreator.

Does this help?

Uli
Yamaha PSR-S970 (sold)
Yamaha Genos (ordered)
Nord Electro 5D
 
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Offline SeaGtGruff

Re: Question about GM/GM2/GS/XG compatibility
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2017, 10:39:00 AM »
Yes, it does help-- and is pretty much what I'd expected, although I had asked because I wanted to be sure. The part about the bank numbers is especially informative-- although I wonder if those values are big-endian or little-endian? Now it's time for me to pull out the PDF Data Lists for the T2, T3, and T4 to see what's what. ;)
Michael Rideout
YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443
 

Offline voodoo

Re: Question about GM/GM2/GS/XG compatibility
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2017, 12:04:41 AM »
It's stated as MSB/LSB in the original text, that is big endian. In my bank overview the banks 118 and 119 are not listed:

Code: [Select]
MSB LSB.. LSB Content
0 0 GM Voices
0 1 101 XG Voices
0 104 127 Panel Voices
8 0 8 Mega Voices
8 32 58 Super Articulation
8 64 67 Super Articulation 2
9 32 84 Ensemble Voices
10 0 9 Organ Flutes
49 0 9 Expansion Packs Europe
50 0 3 Expansion Packs America
51 0 3 Expansion Packs Asia
62 0 127 YEM Drum Voices
63 0 127 YEM Normal Voices
64 0 GM Effects
104 0 38 Panel Voices
109 0 6 Ensemble Voices
109 112 119 Ensemble Voices
120 0 GM2 Drums
121 0 5 GM2 Voices
126 0 SFX Voices
127 0 Drums
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 12:06:08 AM by voodoo »
Yamaha PSR-S970 (sold)
Yamaha Genos (ordered)
Nord Electro 5D
 
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Offline voodoo

Re: Question about GM/GM2/GS/XG compatibility
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2017, 12:07:28 AM »
And there are statements, that the GS voices are selectable in the keyboard for midi revoicing, that is in the song creator or the panel function. But I have not tried this on ma S970.
Yamaha PSR-S970 (sold)
Yamaha Genos (ordered)
Nord Electro 5D
 
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Offline voodoo

Re: Question about GM/GM2/GS/XG compatibility
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2017, 12:18:22 AM »
I found another article:

http://forum.yamaha-europe.com/showthread.php?35584-Tyros-4-Voices-auf-MSB-119-LSB-0

It says:

Quote
Die Lösung: Melodie-Voices liegen auf MSB=119, LSB=0; die GS-Drumkits liegen auf MSB=118, LSB=0.

means: Tyros 4 maps GS melody voices to bank 119/0, and GS drum kits to bank 118/0 internally.
Yamaha PSR-S970 (sold)
Yamaha Genos (ordered)
Nord Electro 5D
 
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Offline DerekA

Re: Question about GM/GM2/GS/XG compatibility
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2017, 05:43:45 AM »
Yes, I'm sure that when I tried revoicing a midi file via the mixing console, the voice folder was labelled 'GS'. There was no other way to reach this folder. From what others have said, I'll guess this is just a smoke-and-mirrors mapping of XG voices into a virtual folder.
S770
 
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