PORTAMENTOO!!!!!!

[Joe H]

Seems to me that Yamaha has listened when people in Eastern Europe and the Middle East have said the ethnic instruments didn't sound so realistic... so they improved them.  I assume many persons also suggested the Portamento be implemented on their arranger keyboards to help create more realistic musical nuances for players in those parts of the world. 


It's a BIG world out there... and Yamaha is striving to satisfy musicians of many many different cultures and provide styles for the traditional music of these many cultures.  What a monumental task that must be... to provide realistic styles and realistic instrument sounds for diverse cultures in every part of the world!  Who could even attempt to do that... but Yamaha Corporation.

Give them some slack, I think they are working on it!

Cheers,
Joe H

[Ed B]

Hi
I thought that potamento was there?
The instruments all have an option to select monophonic. When you are using this option of a voice it allows a portamento feature to come into effect which is great to simulate the playing of a sax or other solo instrument. It provides a legato effect moving smoothly from note to note. this can be demonstrated by selecting mono for say the voice "Oxgen" in the synth category turn off the ACMP and press C1 and then C6. You will hear the portamento effect. The portamento effect only works in the monophonic mode.
Ed B

[FantomX]

On the other hand, the fact that the newish PSR-A3000 apparently does what they're asking for in this thread might-- might-- suggest that Yamaha is thinking about implementing this behavior on other upcoming models. Did the PSR-A3000's predecessors behave the same way, or is it new to the PSR-A3000?

Yamaha PSR A3000 Oriental is the sole arranger who has Mono Legato , has no predecessors!

[SeaGtGruff]

     Yamaha PSR A3000 Oriental is the sole arranger who has Mono Legato , has no predecessors!

Aren't the PSR-A1000 and PSR-A2000 predecessors of the PSR-A3000? I was asking whether they had Mono/Legato Portamento. Their Owner's Manuals seem to indicate that they did-- except they didn't have the "Mono Type" function in the Voice Set parameters, whereas the PSR-A3000 does, so I don't know whether their implementation of Mono/Legato Portamento was the same as what you're asking for.

[FantomX]

When I say "Yamaha PSR A3000 Oriental is the sole arranger Who has Mono Legato, has no predecessors" ... I referred to the fact that the function has no predecessor Mono Legato ! P.S. -not good speaker of English (using Google Translator, and often what I want to say ... Mr. Google translate slightly differently), I hope you understand what I mean!

[SeaGtGruff]

I hope you understand what I mean!

Yes, I got you. And it looks like the Tyros 5's manual is very similar to those of the PSR-A1000 and PSR-A2000 as far as their information about the Mono/Legato option and Portamento, so I'm guessing they don't implement it in the same way that the PSR-A3000 does, i.e. the way that's being asked for in this thread.

[FantomX]

Yes, I got you. And it looks like the Tyros 5's manual is very similar to those of the PSR-A1000 and PSR-A2000 as far as their information about the Mono/Legato option and Portamento, so I'm guessing they don't implement it in the same way that the PSR-A3000 does, i.e. the way that's being asked for in this thread.

follows the arrow and see what is missing in Tyros 2, 3, 4, 5 !

[attachment deleted by admin]

[jwyvern]

Yes, I got you. And it looks like the Tyros 5's manual is very similar to those of the PSR-A1000 and PSR-A2000 as far as their information about the Mono/Legato option and Portamento, so I'm guessing they don't implement it in the same way that the PSR-A3000 does, i.e. the way that's being asked for in this thread.

I am still trying to figure what the difference is - if any- between the A3000 mono-legato and other keyboards. The A3000 manual's description of Portamento is nothing special and is on a par with descriptions in Tyros's and I'm guessing, many PSR's . eg.
When the mono button is on ...." depending on the voice Portamento may be produced when notes are played with legato".
The Portamento pedal is also mentioned, PO being produced via legato playing. (There is no mention of mono or poly settings in this case, similar to the Ty5 manual).
So, there is little evidence from the manual that the A3000 treats PO any differently from other keyboards- unless it has been found to apply PO successfully to wav based voices when other PSR's do not.
But even in that case Tyros5 can apply Portamento to wav voices- see my earlier post way back in the thread- The technology may be in use already- does the S970 apply PO to wav voices?

metcam has a Tyros5 and I was hoping he would comment on my earlier post. Does he find the overall application of Portamento on Ty5 satisfactory? It would help to clarify I think.
John

[SeaGtGruff]

John, one difference is that page 114 of the PSR-A3000's Owner's Manual shows an additional Voice Set parameter-- "Mono Type"-- which is also shown in the image that FantomX just posted.

As I interpret the description of the "Mono Type" setting, it lets you choose how overlapping notes are handled when the Voice is in Mono mode-- i.e., does the second note retrigger the ADSR envelope ("Normal" setting), or does the second note play as a continuation of the first note without having a separate ADSR envelope of its own ("Legato" setting)?

Although I've never played a hard synth, only soft synths, my understanding is that synths with a Portamento feature typically suppress the retriggering of the ADSR envelope for notes which are played legato-- presumably only when Portamento is turned on and the Portamento Time or Portamento Amount is set to 0. The initial note triggers the beginning of the ADSR envelope, but subsequent overlapping notes are sounded without having any Attack of their own; the current ADSR envelope simply continues from whatever point it's at in the Attack, Decay, or Sustain phase-- i.e., depending on the Attack Time, Decay Time, and how much time has elapsed between the beginning of the initial note and when the next note was pressed. The Release phase doesn't begin until the last legato or overlapping note is released.

[voodoo]

This is even mentioned on the "Features" tab of the official yamaha web page for the A3000:

For example, a new feature called "Mono Legato" allows you to play trill phrases without using the joystick, perfect when playing with Oriental string instrument Voices.

And this is what the A3000 manual says about the new parameter "mono type":

Determines the behavior of the notes of decaying sounds, such as a guitar,
when they are played with legato with the edited Voice set to MONO above.
When NORMAL is selected, the next note sounds after the previous note is
stopped. When LEGATO is selected, the sound of the previously played
note is maintained and only the pitch changes to that of the next note.

So I think that SeaGtGruff is right with his explanation.

Uli

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[jwyvern]

 Hi SeaGtGruff and voodoo,
At last we are seeing a clear distinction between normal portamento understood by most people as available on keyboards and a new type, mono-legato, on the A3000.
Many thanks for the explanations   

John

[SeaGtGruff]

The weird thing is, manuals for other models also speak of "Mono/Legato," even though they don't have the "Mono Type" setting in their Voice Set parameters. I'm wondering if there's already an XG Sy*** message for setting the "Mono Type" (i.e., the behavior of the ADSR Envelope Generator), and all Yamaha has really done is added a way to control it via the Voice Set parameters so it's more accessible. What would be interesting is if someone with a PSR-A3000 would set up a Voice to play in the "Mono/Legato" style, then do an "Initial Send" to a DAW to capture all the corresponding MIDI messages so we can see what they are. Or I guess there might be some information in the PSR-A3000's Data List-- time to go look and see!

EDIT: Okay, I checked the Data Lists for the PSR-A3000, PSR-A2000, PSR-S970, and Tyros5. I believe the following two XG parameter addresses control the new Mono/Legato behavior. They are not listed for the PSR-A2000, PSR-S970, and Tyros5, only for the PSR-A3000:

0A nn 01 (1 byte) = Mono Priority.
Value 00 = Lastest [sic].
Value 01 = Highest.

0A nn 02 (1 byte) = Portamento Mono Legato.
Value 00 = Normal.
Value 01 = Pitch Poly.

I assume "Lastest" is a typo for either "Last" or "Latest" (which should be the same thing).

[Brnjeuska74]

I am glad that some of you took time to explain this effect those of you that do not fully understand use of availability in Tyros line of product !!! Thank you. Now if Yamaha listen's to us; or want me to bye their product in the future..... it will take another look at this post !!! I will repeat my self " PORTAMENTO MONO/LEGATO on WAV format !!! Just do it !!!!!!

[Brnjeuska74]

I was thinking, We all have to come together and every one of us send directly email to Yamaha. This forum is ok but not enough. Some things need to be presented directly to Yamaha company !!! Please take a min or two and send the email. Portamento MONO/LEGATO on WAV format is way over due on Tyros line of product.
Half bar.... hmmmm.........

[metcam]

"Brnjeuska"

I emailed so far a lease 10 times about this issue,,since psr9000.Also called a few times.

Personaly I think Yamaha listen better when people complaint here on forum...


Regards

[Brnjeuska74]

My friend what ever it takes, all we need is something that is already there and developed !!! Is that to much to ask

[daliboraleksov]

YAMAHA you should listen to your people

I know this "post" is "off" more than few months but I hope someone from YAMAHA will listen and finally implement this feature in their "Tyros" arrangers.
Mono Legato is essential feature for playing "balkan" music primarily, but it has its own importance in other music types of course.

If someone does not understand what Mono legato means, here is a nice article about that:
https://ask.audio/articles/understanding-mono-legato-mode-in-synth-sample-vis

I'm from Serbia (Balkan) and I "know" that the main reason why basically no-one in "balkan" who is professional player, plays ONLY tyros keyboards is because of missing mono legato feature.

So what do people who like YAMAHA (tyros) usually do?
They usually buy some additional workstation keyboard that has Mono Legato like (KORG, Yamaha-Motif, TotalSampler (juzisound), etc...)
So they end up with:
* 2 keyboards on each their appearance
* they have to spent a lot more money even though they already had to pay considerable amount of money for their YAMAHA (read: tyros) arranger.
* they have to spend a lot more time to create custom sounds on both keyboards
* they end up with two basically different instruments with two different "sound engines" and they usually have problems to combine both together
* etc...
* Eventually they sell their Tyros and buy KORG (pa4, pa3, ...)

If you do not trust me, just take any of the "Balkan-like" countries: Serbia, Macedonia, Bulgaria, Croatia, Romania, Albania, Turkey etc... and take a look at the professional keyboard players and their keyboards :-)

Why? Well... because YAMAHA "can not" implement Mono legato in tyros!!!
Is it so hard to have a simple ON/OFF switch like "MONO LEGATO: ON/OFF"
They implemented so many different and difficult articulation algorithms for different types of instruments like playing Sax, Clarinet, Strings (quartet), Guitars etc... and they "can't" implement MONO LEGATO :-)
Really? I'm not buying this, sorry YAMAHA.

I really do not understand what really stands behind all of this and why people from YAMAHA are doing this for so many years.
I'm almost 100% sure that mono legato is not implemented in tyros keyboards on purpose.
Is there any other REASONABLE explanation? I don't think so.
Why do I think that? Well, because it is more than obvious.
Just take any YAMAHA workstation: starting from DX7, DX11, SY99,...,MOTIF they ALL HAVE Mono legato or at least fingered portamento that is probably the most similar thing to mono legato + portamento.

Anyway, I hope someone from YAMAHA will actually SEE this and react and finally implement Mono legato and/or portamento in future tyros keyboards.
Also, it would be GREAT if they could implement a HOTFIX to previous tyros OS implementations (tyros 5,4,3,2,1) as a "new feature" but I think this would be to much to ask having in mind that they did not do this originally.
They probably do not maintain OSs for older tyros keyboards any more... to bad

Finally, I know that implementing mono legato and portamento will definitely increase the number of sold Tyros keyboards in ALL countries (especially Balkan) and will help YAMAHA to take the leadership in arrangers market again!

I trust YAMAHA and hope someone will listen

Thanks
Dalibor Aleksov

[Enildo]

Personally, I never used that feature, and I play all kinds of music using a wide variety of right hand voices. And, I don't know of anyone that uses it. So, if it's such a necessary feature to employ, how about those of you that require it post some of your music so we can hear how it is employed in the specific songs where it it is required.

Gary

Hello Gary! It really is a feature that does not have much use, but in some songs can make life easier for the arranger. Listen to the introduction of this song. It is much easier to change the notes (flute) with the portamento triggered. Hug!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feBKqSnDoHg

[ugawoga]

Hi
I find portamento In the Tyros 5 excellent and for playing certain types of rock similar to Camel or 60s group  Chicory tip's ---"Son of a Father" --fame ,the Portamento is fantastic
The thing that Yamaha need to do Is get their keyboards to match System Exclusive as portamento does not play at all In Daws like Sonar Platinum  etc.
I had a little program that went In effects bin and when engaged It brought the zero's and ones a few ticks forward and then Porta played well.
Since updates In Sonar that does not work anymore.
Why I mention all of this which Is old hat to some,is that I would like to edit my songs from the Tyros on the computer which is better than pressing a load of buttons and a small screen.
There are programs out there like Midiworks etc ,but all have poor piano rolls which are basic in my opinion.
It would be great If yamaha keyboards matched a Daw perfectly for editing.
I still use Sonar to Edit my Tyros 5 as when I hear glitches ,or portamento not working ,just ignore .The piano roll still works great ,but you have to be carefull when editing Portamento as for the tails gets screwed up.
You can work around the problem as when you put your song back into the tyros it plays pertfectly again.You then have to record the song on the Tyros to keep portamento.
Songs without Portamento and things like that are a breeze to edit.
So to recap on that ,I would like to have a daw that matches The Yamaha Keyboard which I am sure a few people would pay for.
Also I would like to see Yem bettered .Load In only what you want without having to load the whole flippin lot which can take a lifretime.


Ps I thought Legato =  means a smooth notation from A to B which suits the classical side, more for Orchestra's and mello Instruments etc

Portamento= MONO Sweeps from A to B ,from low to high  which is great on Synths, mainly used for flute , or great rock tunes. or one of those things used in a circus or like blowin down the small hole at the top of a bicycle pump
.
Get Yamaha to make a decent editor for songs = Main prority!!!! The rest is great

On Tyros 6_-- I would like to see better saxes and guitars then the keyboard for me is complete (do not get me wrong, the saxes and guitars are pretty good now}
Forget appegiators etc as you can string a few notes together in seconds to make a sequence, just concentrate on quality of sound and styles and editing.
That Is my 10 bobs worth or a nickel or a dime


All the best
John

[metcam]

HI

On new Tyros6/Genos or... Portamento/MONO-Legato need to be same as on PSR-A3000!

That is IT.

The First Workstations Yamaha made MONO/LEGATO is PSR-A3000  and is a BINGO.

So Yamaha need implement in future to ALL Arangers and that will be IT.   

Regards!

[Fred Smith]

Which they will probably do starting with the Genos.. doesnt cost much to implement these kinds of features they allready developed..  and it indeed would add something for everyone

Well, not everyone. It wouldn't do anything for those of us who never use the feature.

Fred

[metcam]

Well, not everyone. It wouldn't do anything for those of us who never use the feature.

Fred

Which there is some futures  You use and we use never.

That why  Yamaha is GLOBE company not just for individuals or small groups.

Regards

[daliboraleksov]

Hello Gary! It really is a feature that does not have much use, but in some songs can make life easier for the arranger. Listen to the introduction of this song. It is much easier to change the notes (flute) with the portamento triggered. Hug!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feBKqSnDoHg

I understand what you are saying, but I must say that I do not agree with you, sorry

I think that mono legato + (fingered) portamento OR basically having portamento GLIDE configurable is ESSENTIAL feature for ALL "balkan"-like music types.

Take a look at any of the videos from here:
https://www.youtube.com/user/juzisound/videos
or
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Eu2VRMlTdk

and you will see what I'm talking about.

For example I understand that you probably do not "understand" or "like" this type of music but trust me when I say that this feature is MANDATORY for everyone on BALKAN/ORIENTAL area.

for example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6U_qbepJ1LY
OR even better
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nh1NqlJQcXQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyPLVvPX_z4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vyidr9_KsEg

This is what I'm referring to, and until yamaha makes this happen on TYROS keyboards really small number of people in Balkan will play it. Maybe those who play "foreign" music...but for "our" national weddings etc... no go

ALSO, if you guys think that BALKAN is small market I must say you are sooooo wrong, but OK I understand that this is not useful for those who do not use it of course, but if they think World Wide why is this ignored in their THE BEST ARRANGERs and again is available in basically ALL yamaha workstations (non arranger keyboards)

Balkan
about 55 million people
Bulgaria, Macedonia, Serbia, Croatia, Slovenia, Bosnia, Romania, Italia, Albania, Greece, Turkey, etc..

[Enildo]

I understand what you are saying, but I must say that I do not agree with you, sorry

I think that mono legato + (fingered) portamento OR basically having portamento GLIDE configurable is ESSENTIAL feature for ALL "balkan"-like music types.

Take a look at any of the videos from here:
https://www.youtube.com/user/juzisound/videos
or
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Eu2VRMlTdk

and you will see what I'm talking about.

For example I understand that you probably do not "understand" or "like" this type of music but trust me when I say that this feature is MANDATORY for everyone on BALKAN/ORIENTAL area.

for example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6U_qbepJ1LY
OR even better
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nh1NqlJQcXQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyPLVvPX_z4

This is what I'm referring to, and until yamaha makes this happen on TYROS keyboards really small number of people in Balkan will play it. Maybe those who play "foreign" music...but for "our" national weddings etc... no go

ALSO, if you guys think that BALKAN is small market I must say you are sooooo wrong, but OK I understand that this is not useful for those who do not use it of course, but if they think World Wide why is this ignored in their THE BEST ARRANGERs and again is available in basically ALL yamaha workstations (non arranger keyboards)

Balkan
about 55 million people
Bulgaria, Macedonia, Serbia, Croatia, Slovenia, Bosnia, Romania, Italia, Albania, Greece, Turkey, etc..

I entirely agree Daliboraleksov. It's that in the region that I live in, the portamento is not so used. Indeed, for the examples you have shown (balkan music) is very important.
Thank you for opening my eyes.

Enildo

[daliboraleksov]

Sure no problem,

Also probably the most famous keyboard players in the world
ARE using mono legato (and/or glide portamento)

like for example:

Joe Zawinul
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WQfeplhzT4

Herbie Hancock
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIoCSkjz8aA

Jordan Rudess
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81FfFSMgc98

So just to be more clear

MONO LEGATO and glide (configurable) portamento

IS WELL USED since...well...forever... and in ALL kind of music not only Balkan but Jazz, Rock, Pop, Funk, Metal, Latino etc...you name it

Not having this feature in the best yamaha's arranger (tyros) is such a shame for Yamaha

But I hope someone from Yamaha will actually LISTEN and finally implement this!!!

The reason why I'm personally exasperated on Yamaha is because I have played more than 30 different keyboards in my life
(starting from Ensoniq, Yamaha DX/SY99, Korg T3, Roland g600/800/1000, Korg pa80/pa1/.../pa4, Tyros1/2/3/4/5 etc...) and I really admire Yamaha's SOUND engine it is probably the best and so damn good produced.
Drums, Guitars, etc...everything SOUNDS so damn good and then again it does not have mono legato and glide portamento.
So I had to bring another keyboard whole my life OR just buy a "KORG" which I personally do not like (ONLY because of its sound engine and ROM sound)

I even tried (since I'm am a software engineer too) to use MIDI and somehow intercept all MIDI messages and override them to somehow implement mono legato, but I failed since I never had so much time to work on MIDI etc... too bad

Another Yamaha's issue is their "editing" features.... but this is not a current topic...this deserves a separate thread

Anyway, I'm so sorry if I bother you guys with so many details but this is the only reasonable FORUM that I could find where I can actually say something Thank you for that

[voodoo]

My best bet is that the feature will be integrated in some of the new sounds, which will sound awesome, and you will probably use those... so from this kind of features even you would benefit indirectly...

This is my bet, also. The super articulation voices have kind of mono legato already.

[Brnjeuska74]

Some folks just get it what is missing here regarding the PORTAMENTO MONO/LEGATO on Tyros..... wav format !!!!!

[daliboraleksov]

I understand your pain....

Once they implement configurable glide portamento and mono legato I really EXPECT that this is going to be available for all samples including ROM and RAM...so yes, this feature MUST be available for all sounds: factory and custom/user WAVE samples.

I don't really care about the yamaha's articulation algorithms
I don't really care about their implementation of string quartet and those kind of things

But not having the configurable glide portamento and mono legato in yamaha's best arrangers???
Don't know what to say anymore really!!! Thank you

[metcam]

"Brnjeuska" and "Dalibor Aleksov"

I am with you my friends.I am pretty sure Yamaha will have on Next Tyros/Genos etc.

As this moment the only Yamaha aranger which have Portamento-MONO/LEGATO for internal and external samples is PSR-A3000 and working very,very good.

[Styles2psr]

It's about time to wake up Yamaha!!!!!!!!!

We really need a proper portamento/mono legato in our Yamaha arrangers, why is it so hard to make that?
The built-in feature it's a piece of crap, and also very limited.

As some of you mention, the Mono/legato feature is not only used in Balkan and Middle East Music, but in EDM Music as well.

It is very frustrating when you working with EDM styles and you're trying to create a great drop lead melody in a Intro with portamento effect,
but you can't because in Style Mode the Mono feature/button doesn't work.
Instead i have to use the pitchbend to get similar effect.


Here is 2 short demos i've done, showing 1 bad portamento, and 1 proper Portamento/glide.
See attached Mp3 files.


Mono 1:
It sounds exactly like Yamahas crappy built-in feature.


Mono 2:
A perfect Portamento/legato/glide, this is what we need in our arrangers.


Perhaps in 2025 Yamaha will feature a proper portamento function.


Regards, Jan.


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